The inclusion of scrying as a way you could see a location and thus be familiar enough with it to teleport to it makes the intent of the rules clear.Six months on, I still disagree with this. Just because the Teleport text suggests it's possible to scry on a location and teleport to it, that doesn't mean scrying is guaranteed to automatically give you sufficient information to do so.
Using Greater Teleport should work. The other teleport might fail.
Barring some spell such as Screen do you have an example of when it is likely to not give you enough information?
Unsure if this has been asked. A discern location and scry should let you use regular teleport, no? Wish can be had at that level but you might not want to spend the 25k.
There is no reason this should not work. One spell gives you an image, and the other tells you exactly where it is.
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The inclusion of scrying as a way you could see a location and thus be familiar enough with it to teleport to it makes the intent of the rules clear.Six months on, I still disagree with this. Just because the Teleport text suggests it's possible to scry on a location and teleport to it, that doesn't mean scrying is guaranteed to automatically give you sufficient information to do so.
To restate my opinion:
- teleport require you to know the location in which is the target. Greater teleport is a bit more lenient, but it still require you to know the location
You must have some clear idea of the location and layout of the destination.
- the Scry spell and devices based on it give you the second part of that requirement: the "layout of the destination" for a 10' radius around the target creature but not the location. It is possible that the layout of that area will be sufficient to recognize the location: if this is what you see and you know that subway station, you know that it is time Square in New York and have an idea of where NY is, so you can teleport there.
For me that is an image I have found on the Internet and without further informations I will not have any idea of where it is.So it is possible to scry and fry someone that is in a location that you can recognize by the small area that you see around the target. A wrong guess on the location will automatically get you the False destination result.
- there are other ways to scry a location, like clairvoyance and the Mirror of mental prowess, but they have their set of limitations. Mostly, you don't target a creature, so you can't select someone and find where he is, but you can watch a location and see if the creature you want to attack is there.
So scry & fry is possible, but require way more preparation and the right circumstances, it is not a easy tactic that anyone can use.
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Unsure if this has been asked. A discern location and scry should let you use regular teleport, no? Wish can be had at that level but you might not want to spend the 25k.There is no reason this should not work. One spell gives you an image, and the other tells you exactly where it is.
The spell reveals the name of the creature or object's location (place, name, business name, building name, or the like), community, county (or similar political division), country, continent, and the plane of existence where the target lies.
It give the name of the location, with great detail. You still need to find where the location with that name is.
To make some example, for you or me "Subway station Time Square-42 st- New York - New York state - USA - North America - Earth for both of us and anyone that can look a globe is more than enough.On the other hand: Olympus mons - Mars require a bit more work.
XWWP - TT!'ER - 30 Doradus - Tarantula nebula is of little use. The first two names are the (made up) names of the planet and city in the language of the natives, but have little use for Earth people.
More "mundane" example:
Tuizicapllochy temple - lost city of Theotical - Mwangy expenses - Golarion. If I don't know the location of the lost city of Theotical I can't teleport there.
Discern Location give the names of the location, not distance and direction.
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Isn't there an example of scry being used for teleporting? Thought there was something with teleporting to a ship, requires a scry... Something in Skull and Shackles maybe?
Dimension Door, Greater Teleport, Teleport, Teleportation
Circle: Because ships are constantly in motion, the caster
of spells of the teleportation subschool must have line of
sight to teleport onto a ship. Otherwise, a caster must scry
upon a particular ship first, then immediately teleport
to the scryed destination. Any delay in casting means the
ship has moved from its scryed location and the spell fails.
Notice of it speak of "scrying upon a particular ship", not a creature.
Nothing short of a mind blank spell or the direct intervention of a deity keeps you from learning the exact location of a single individual or object.
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Nothing short of a mind blank spell or the direct intervention of a deity keeps you from learning the exact location of a single individual or object.
Read all the text:
A discern location spell is among the most powerful means of locating creatures or objects. Nothing short of a mind blank spell or the direct intervention of a deity keeps you from learning the exact location of a single individual or object. Discern location circumvents normal means of protection from scrying or location. The spell reveals the name of the creature or object's location (place, name, business name, building name, or the like), community, county (or similar political division), country, continent, and the plane of existence where the target lies.To repeat it again: it don't give distance and direction.
The use you can make of the information is based on character knowledge.
It is very useful, as if the villain is laired in "sub basement 2- Swan alley 2 - Korvosa - Golarion" you can get where Swan alley is in Korvosa with minimal work, and you get to know that there is a sub basement in the building. After you learn the location of Swan alley and you scry the target you have enough to teleport there.On the other hand if the location is the name of a old Azlant street, in a old, submerged, Azlant city, near a island of the Azlant reef you need to get more informations to teleport there.
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Nothing short of a mind blank spell or the direct intervention of a deity keeps you from learning the exact location of a single individual or object.Read all the text:
A discern location spell is among the most powerful means of locating creatures or objects. Nothing short of a mind blank spell or the direct intervention of a deity keeps you from learning the exact location of a single individual or object. Discern location circumvents normal means of protection from scrying or location. The spell reveals the name of the creature or object's location (place, name, business name, building name, or the like), community, county (or similar political division), country, continent, and the plane of existence where the target lies.To repeat it again: it don't give distance and direction.
The use you can make of the information is based on character knowledge.
It is very useful, as if the villain is laired in "sub basement 2- Swan alley 2 - Korvosa - Golarion" you can get where Swan alley is in Korvosa with minimal work, and you get to know that there is a sub basement in the building. After you learn the location of Swan alley and you scry the target you have enough to teleport there.On the other hand if the location is the name of a old Azlant street, in a old, submerged, Azlant city, near a island of the Azlant reef you need to get more informations to teleport there.
If you do not know exactly where something is then you do not know the exact location. It takes more than a name to know the exact location. Now maybe they meant "you know the name of the exact location", but that is not what it says.
So the question now is did they intend to only give you the name or to actually allow you to know where the location is.
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I read it as "you know the name of the location, with all the details needed to make it useful" but not "you know distance and direction from your position plus description of the location".
The phrase I bolded seem, to me, the main rule about what you know.
You put the emphasis on another section of the spell description and consider the part I bolded as something extra that you get after knowing the exact location.
I think it can be read both way and could be a decent FAQ question. If you want to put one up, give me a shout, I will click on it.
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I read it as "you know the name of the location, with all the details needed to make it useful" but not "you know distance and direction from your position plus description of the location".
The "clear idea of the location" requirement of Teleport doesn't specify whether it requires a distance in miles and a direction, or whether written address is sufficient. But it certainly doesn't specify a relative location.
Suppose the caster was lost and wanted to teleport home. He knows where his home is, but not where he is. He doesn't know the current direction or distance, but he knows where he's headed - isn't that enough?
And if anything should reliably satisfy a 'location' requirement, an 8th level spell called Discern Location should be it.
I read it as "you know the name of the location, with all the details needed to make it useful" but not "you know distance and direction from your position plus description of the location".The "clear idea of the location" requirement of Teleport doesn't specify whether it requires a distance in miles and a direction, or whether written address is sufficient. But it certainly doesn't specify a relative location.
Suppose the caster was lost and wanted to teleport home. He knows where his home is, but not where he is. He doesn't know the current direction or distance, but he knows where he's headed - isn't that enough?
And if anything should reliably satisfy a 'location' requirement, an 8th level spell called Discern Location should be it.
Certainly seems like it, doesn't it.
Still nothing?They have a ranking system for FAQ's.
Which is?
That depends how specific Discern Location is. If you scry on him near that patch of sand and then discern the location of that patch of sand, you have both the location and layout of the area you wish to teleport to.
Fry that desert-merchant as you please.
@ Diego Rossi as well as anyone espousing that Scrying does not give sufficient information for a teleport.
What do you say about my statement Here?
Also how do you justify your assertion given what is said in my statement.
Please if you would break it down for me as I am still completely flabbergasted why this would be a question.
Now, I can see someone finding this extremely powerful and wanting it changed, but I do not understand confusion on how it currently works RAW.
Please also keep in mind that as the developers have most recently said, "Unless it is an FAQ or an Errata, it is not a rule. Dev board comments are not rules."
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...“Viewed once” is a place that you have seen once, possibly using magic such as scrying...
emphasis mine.
simply put, if that viewing is sufficient to give you "location and layout," you can teleport there. if the information is incomplete, just location or just layout, but not both, then you cannot.
...You must have some clear idea of the location and layout of the destination...
hence, whether or not a Scry satisfies those conditions is somewhere in the negotiation between the DM and the PC.
Why not just outright ban teleport, since obviously you're going pretty far out of your way to make sure it doesn't work.
?? A strange comment. Why ban it? It would still allow one to teleport to any location one has been to, for example.
(I'm not advocating a position re: scry info, etc., here. I'm just pointing out the silly baby-with-bathwater comment that sometimes infests the Paizo boards.)
Why not just outright ban teleport, since obviously you're going pretty far out of your way to make sure it doesn't work.?? A strange comment. Why ban it? It would still allow one to teleport to any location one has been to, for example.
(I'm not advocating a position re: scry info, etc., here. I'm just pointing out the silly baby-with-bathwater comment that sometimes infests the Paizo boards.)
I think the comment was aimed at Diego's statements regarding discern location. I can see the point there because, as a player, if I drop an eighth level spell to know a location I damn well better benefit from it. Otherwise your just going to feel like your being railroaded.
I think the comment was aimed at Diego's statements regarding discern location. I can see the point there because, as a player, if I drop an eighth level spell to know a location I damn well better benefit from it. Otherwise your just going to feel like your being railroaded.Why not just outright ban teleport, since obviously you're going pretty far out of your way to make sure it doesn't work.?? A strange comment. Why ban it? It would still allow one to teleport to any location one has been to, for example.
(I'm not advocating a position re: scry info, etc., here. I'm just pointing out the silly baby-with-bathwater comment that sometimes infests the Paizo boards.)
Oh, for sure. But "why not just outright ban teleport" is still a dumb statement - even in the face of Diego's comments. As I said - It would still allow one to teleport to any location one has been to, for example.
@ Diego Rossi as well as anyone espousing that Scrying does not give sufficient information for a teleport.
What do you say about my statement Here?
Please also keep in mind that as the developers have most recently said, "Unless it is an FAQ or an Errata, it is not a rule. Dev board comments are not rules."
You are not viewing a Location, you are viewing a Creature. From viewing that creature, you might get clues where it is from the background. "Aha, I see DrDeth is in the Library at the palace! I was there once". That's why it sez "possibly using magic such as scrying."
Dev comments are not rules. They do suggest strongly that a given interpretation of rules may be right or wrong, however.
OTOH, I did open this thread asking for a FAQ. It would be simple to explain. "possibly using magic such as scrying means that if you see the creature in a known location, you can use that info to get there. But you can't discern a unknown location thru scrying."
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I read it as "you know the name of the location, with all the details needed to make it useful" but not "you know distance and direction from your position plus description of the location".The "clear idea of the location" requirement of Teleport doesn't specify whether it requires a distance in miles and a direction, or whether written address is sufficient. But it certainly doesn't specify a relative location.
Suppose the caster was lost and wanted to teleport home. He knows where his home is, but not where he is. He doesn't know the current direction or distance, but he knows where he's headed - isn't that enough?
And if anything should reliably satisfy a 'location' requirement, an 8th level spell called Discern Location should be it.
Sure, you can teleport when lost.
What I was aiming to is that you have the name of a location, not the position of the location.And knowing the name of something and the names of the locations near it isn't knowing its location.
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The teleport spell specifically references scrying under viewed once.
It even hyperlinks to the scrying spell.
This is all on the PRD Here
I would also definitively trust the PRD over any other online resource for Pathfinder.
I do not understand why this is even a question.
It is very, very clear. Now it can be house ruled however you want, but unless the text of teleport is changed the RAW allow for "Scrying" the spell to give you a location you can teleport to as if viewed once.
Please show me a PRD or Errata entry to disprove this if I am wrong.
To address a point that I am sure will be brought up James Jacobs does work for Paizo, however he is NOT a rules developer he is in charge of setting and world building as the creative director if I remember correctly, and also he himself has said he does NOT make rules calls on these boards.
The thread "Ask James Jacobs" even states that he would appreciate if people would not ask for hard rules decisions and all his answers there are just his opinion and not necessarily RAW. He even often refers people to the rules forum and the FAQ button
This is not in any way a bash at Mr. Jacobs as he seems from his posts to be a fine individual, with which I personally have no problems. His creativity is also not in doubt as he does produce quality material, so please understand I am just parsing rules text and not trying to attack anyone.
"Viewed once” is a place that you have seen once, possibly using magic such as scrying.
As it has been explained more than once, that cover the part "seen", not the part "know the location".
You are taking a part of the teleport rules in isolation to support your position, disregarding other parts of the rules.|
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I think the comment was aimed at Diego's statements regarding discern location. I can see the point there because, as a player, if I drop an eighth level spell to know a location I damn well better benefit from it. Otherwise your just going to feel like your being railroaded.Why not just outright ban teleport, since obviously you're going pretty far out of your way to make sure it doesn't work.?? A strange comment. Why ban it? It would still allow one to teleport to any location one has been to, for example.
(I'm not advocating a position re: scry info, etc., here. I'm just pointing out the silly baby-with-bathwater comment that sometimes infests the Paizo boards.)
If you drop a 8th level spell you get what the spell say you get.
Discern location say: "The spell reveals the name of the creature or object's location (place, name, business name, building name, or the like), community, county (or similar political division), country, continent, and the plane of existence where the target lies."You want something that isn't part of what the spell give you.
It is a 8th level spells because it cut through all defenses with the exception of "mind blank spell or the direct intervention of a deity".
Oh, for sure. But "why not just outright ban teleport" is still a dumb statement - even in the face of Diego's comments. As I said - It would still allow one to teleport to any location one has been to, for example.
Teleport work perfectly if you know the layout and location. As I have already said they is not automatically know with a combination of spells if the informations are incomplete.
For me location isn't "the name of a place". It require some idea of where that place is.If you want to teleport to Times Square in New York and you have a minimal knowledge of geography (enough to know where is new York on a map) and a image of the Square layout (or even a small section of it) you can teleport there.
If all you know is that New York is somewhere in the US it isn't enough.
If the image you have is some mock up reproduction of Time Square for a film or a serial you teleport to a false destination.
@ Diego Rossi as well as anyone espousing that Scrying does not give sufficient information for a teleport.
What do you say about my statement Here?
Please if you would break it down for me as I am still completely flabbergasted why this would be a question.
A line in the Teleport spell description suggests that it is sometimes possible to teleport to somewhere you have only scryed upon. It does not say that it is always possible to teleport to somewhere you have only scryed upon. You also have to know the location and have the material components and so forth.
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If you drop a 8th level spell you get what the spell say you get.
Discern location say: "The spell reveals the name of the creature or object's location (place, name, business name, building name, or the like), community, county (or similar political division), country, continent, and the plane of existence where the target lies."You want something that isn't part of what the spell give you.
So, to sum it up: You're saying "Discern Location" doesn't actually give you the location of the target. Only the name of the location of the target.
If I looked it up on a (suitably precise) map, would I then know the location?
Yes.
As I see it, if the name is enough to give you a reasonably clear idea of the location, based on your applicable knowledges, in game experience or access to some way to get the informations, you can teleport there if you have an image of the layout, if not Discern location generally give you enough information to get near the location, always based on your applicable knowledges.
Depending on the information you know or can gather it can mean that you can know the location of the street address or, in order of descending applicable knowledge, the city quarter, the city, the state, the nation, the continent, the planet or, at worst the plane in which the target of Discern location is.
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If I looked it up on a (suitably precise) map, would I then know the location?Yes.
It still seems a dubious assumption that 'knowing the location' in Teleport means 'GPS co-ordinates' (or whatever your interpretation is) and not 'knowing the address'.
But it's really only a distinction that applies to characters who can cast level 8 spells but can't afford to buy maps. That's not going to be many people.|
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If I looked it up on a (suitably precise) map, would I then know the location?Yes.It still seems a dubious assumption that 'knowing the location' in Teleport means 'GPS co-ordinates' (or whatever your interpretation is) and not 'knowing the address'.
But it's really only a distinction that applies to characters who can cast level 8 spells but can't afford to buy maps. That's not going to be many people.
It is not "GPS co-ordinates", it is having an idea of where somewhere is.
Until Petra was first visited in 1812 by Johann Ludwig Burckhardt it was unknown in the western world. Getting Petra in Jordana would have meant little for a Englishman before that date. He would have know the country but he hadn't a location. A good starting point to find the city, not the instantaneous knowledge of the location.That is what the Discern location give. A name and indications that help placing it. Not knowledge of the position on the map.
Oh hey, it's this thread again.
Diego, a valiant attempt, but your interpretation seems distinctly unconvincing to me. I don't think it is strongly grounded enough to upturn the orthodox interpretation (or even throw significant question on it), and it's also out of line with official precedent (I believe Skull and Shackles has been cited already in this discussion, which provides an example of using scrying to teleport to a location - deck of a moving ship outside of line of sight - whose map position you would not know).
I also don't think it would actually be a good way to limit the spell if we were houseruling. A map position requirement seems to introduce several interpretation problems.
Which is?Still nothing?They have a ranking system for FAQ's.
What I mean is they have a priority for the order they get answered in. No the list is not public.
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What I mean is they have a priority for the order they get answered in. No the list is not public.Which is?Still nothing?They have a ranking system for FAQ's.
Indeed. About all we really know/can guess at is a couple of the factors going into their decision
1) How important/common is the issue?
The devs usually focus on things that are likely to come up in average games a lot more than extreme corner cases.
2) How complicated is the solution?
As we've seen plenty of times in the past, small rules changes can have lots of unexpected consequences. The last thing anyone wants is another FAQ that fixes one problem but creates a dozen new ones.
3) Will it piss people off?
I can't imagine anyone looks forward to issuing rules changes that are going to make the forum explode into round 324 of the "Paizo Defense Force vs. Heretics who Dare Question Holy Paizo's Divine Perfection" flame war. That's not to say the devs won't issue controversial FAQ/Errata if it's important enough, but I could certainly see them putting highly flammable issues lower down on the priority list.
I think issues like Scry-and-Fry run afoul of issues two and three. You'd need a fairly comprehensive FAQ to cover how all the various divination spells all interact with all the different teleportation spells. Lot of potential for issues.
I agree with what Chengar Qordath, just said.
Basically, this is what your "Dungeon Master/Game Master" is there for. Ask them how they want to play it.
I agree with what Chengar Qordath, just said.
Basically, this is what your "Dungeon Master/Game Master" is there for. Ask them how they want to play it.
That has nothing to do with how the rules were intended to interact however which is what this discussion is about.
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Oh hey, it's this thread again.
Diego, a valiant attempt, but your interpretation seems distinctly unconvincing to me. I don't think it is strongly grounded enough to upturn the orthodox interpretation (or even throw significant question on it), and it's also out of line with official precedent (I believe Skull and Shackles has been cited already in this discussion, which provides an example of using scrying to teleport to a location - deck of a moving ship outside of line of sight - whose map position you would not know).
I also don't think it would actually be a good way to limit the spell if we were houseruling. A map position requirement seems to introduce several interpretation problems.
Skull & Shackles Player companion:
Dimension Door, Greater Teleport, Teleport, Teleportation Circle: Because ships are constantly in motion, the caster of spells of the teleportation subschool must have line of sight to teleport onto a ship. Otherwise, a caster must scry upon a particular ship first, then immediately teleport to the scryed destination. Any delay in casting means the ship has moved from its scryed location and the spell fails.
Please explain how do you use the Scrying spell to scry a ship, as the spell Scrying target a person.
So maybe they are speaking of the use of other spells that allow you to scry a location, like the clairvoyance spell? But at that point we aren't no longer speaking of a scry and fry tactic, as you are finding a location, not a person.Completely different argument.
I think issues like Scry-and-Fry run afoul of issues two and three. You'd need a fairly comprehensive FAQ to cover how all the various divination spells all interact with all the different teleportation spells. Lot of potential for issues.
Very good summation, the above piece from Skull & Shackles show one of the problems.
Scy there is the Scrying spell (a spell that can't target a ship) or a colloquial term for all all the existing and possible future spells that will allow someone to sscry a location? Or something different?
Please explain how do you use the Scry spell to scry a ship, as the spell Scry target a person.
Is there a reason to think this isn't referring to what seems to me to be the obvious answer, that is, you scry a target who is upon that particular ship?
I always thought of it just like Diego described, same with my whole group I think. This seems like something they might label "no faq needed" since it seems like a play style/dm call thing.
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Is there a reason to think this isn't referring to what seems to me to be the obvious answer, that is, you scry a target who is upon that particular ship?Please explain how do you use the Scrying spell to scry a ship, as the spell Scry target a person.
To me the obvious answer seem to be that the writer is speaking of "scry" as the act of scrying something with magic, with one of the possible spells that allow it, like clairvoyance, but that the spells are subject to their limits.
So clairvoyance, that allow you to see all that is within line of sight from the spell target point is very useful here, as you can examine a large area for informations. Scrying, with its 10' radius around the target creature is way less useful.
Edit: corrected the spell name to its right form (Scrying) in both posts.
Easy, the text doesn't say 'scry a ship' it says 'scry upon a ship', as in you scry a person who is upon that particular ship.Edit: Doh, note to self, read ahead.
And you see 10' of deck around the target creature. "Very useful."
I always thought of it just like Diego described, same with my whole group I think. This seems like something they might label "no faq needed" since it seems like a play style/dm call thing.
The rules specifically say you can do something, so while someone might ignore the rule, the intent of the rule should still be answered. I don't use the "damage magic items on a nat 1" rule, but it is still a rule.
Playstyle rulings should be for things such as charm and dominate spells which will vary by the creature targeted, and how far a GM wants charm person to go before it becomes dominate person.
Alignment based questions are also subjective.
Now if DR is saying that you may or may not get enough information to use for a teleport spell while scrying on someone I can agree, but from what I am reading he is saying "I don't care what teleport says about scry. It does not work".
Is there a reason to think this isn't referring to what seems to me to be the obvious answer, that is, you scry a target who is upon that particular ship?To me the obvious answer seem to be that the writer is speaking of "scry" as the act of scrying something with magic, with one of the possible spells that allow it, like clairvoyance, but that the spells are subject to their limits.
So clairvoyance, that allow you to see all that is within line of sight from the spell target point is very useful here, as you can examine a large area for informations. Scrying, with its 10' radius around the target creature is way less useful.
It seems like you are straining unreasonably to avoid the scrying spell. The mechanics of clairvoyance do not fit the context at all - neither the short range of the spell compared to naval line of sight, nor the requirements for creating the clairvoyance sensor.