Weapon Training (Ex)
Starting at 5th level, a fighter can select one group of weapons, as noted below. Whenever he attacks with a weapon from this group, he gains a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls.
Every four levels thereafter (9th, 13th, and 17th), a fighter becomes further trained in another group of weapons. He gains a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls when using a weapon from this group. In addition, the bonuses granted by previous weapon groups increase by +1 each. For example, when a fighter reaches 9th level, he receives a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls with one weapon group and a +2 bonus on attack and damage rolls with the weapon group selected at 5th level. Bonuses granted from overlapping groups do not stack. Take the highest bonus granted for a weapon if it resides in two or more groups.
Weapon Training (Ex)
Starting at 5th level, a fighter can select one group of weapons, as noted below. Whenever he attacks with a weapon from this group, he gains a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls.
Every four levels thereafter (9th, 13th, and 17th), a fighter becomes further trained in another group of weapons. He gains a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls when using a weapon from this group. In addition, the bonuses granted by previous weapon groups increase by +1 each. For example, when a fighter reaches 9th level, he receives a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls with one weapon group and a +2 bonus on attack and damage rolls with the weapon group selected at 5th level. Bonuses granted from overlapping groups do not stack. Take the highest bonus granted for a weapon if it resides in two or more groups.
To make it a bit easier to see.
So I guess having Weapon Training from two different classes is considered overlapping ?
So Having 5 Levels Swashbuckler gives +1 Weapon Training for swashbuckler Weapons and having 3 Levels Fighter (Weapon Master Archtype) gives you Weapon Training chosen Weapon +1.
In effect you only get weapon Training +1 because the Class abilities overlap ?
Swashbuckler Weapon Training doesn't stack with the Fighter Weapon Training, and that's because they're separate abilities.
Starting at 5th level, a fighter can select one group of weapons, as noted below. Whenever he attacks with a weapon from this group, he gains a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls.
Every four levels thereafter (9th, 13th, and 17th), a fighter becomes further trained in another group of weapons. He gains a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls when using a weapon from this group. In addition, the bonuses granted by previous weapon groups increase by +1 each. For example, when a fighter reaches 9th level, he receives a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls with one weapon group and a +2 bonus on attack and damage rolls with the weapon group selected at 5th level. Bonuses granted from overlapping groups do not stack. Take the highest bonus granted for a weapon if it resides in two or more groups.
A fighter also adds this bonus to any combat maneuver checks made with weapons from this group. This bonus also applies to the fighter's Combat Maneuver Defense when defending against disarm and sunder attempts made against weapons from this group.
At 5th level, a swashbuckler gains a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls with one-handed or light piercing melee weapons. While wielding such a weapon, she gains the benefit of the Improved Critical feat. These attack and damage bonuses increase by 1 for every 4 levels beyond 5th (to a maximum of +4 at 17th level).
At this point, Swashbuckler Weapon Training is akin to the Expert Archer feature, which is cited as an example in this FAQ here, where although it cites a weapon group, increases the damage, and other such benefits, it's not eligible because it doesn't refer to the original Weapon Training class feature. The same applies to the Swashbuckler Weapon Training.
If you did, however, find two sources of Weapon Training, such as going Myrmidarch Magus, and/or picking up Fighter VMC, this FAQ here says that both Weapon Training and Armor Training stacks with itself.
|
The bonuses are from two different sources though, the Gloves increase the bonuses you already have.
I would say that one class feature is Weapon Training and the other is Swashbuckler Weapon Training.
That is how they are named in the classes.
So the gloves would not be able to gives its bonus twice.
While it's a fair point, the fact that Gloves came out way before the Swashbuckler when only the Fighter had the Weapon Training Feature doesn't help things.
Correct, the Gloves of Dueling were originally published to affect the Fighter's Weapon Training class feature, and it's safe to say that hasn't changed. Now, other classes have Weapon Training, as the Fighter's class feature, or even through VMC, and in those instances it would stack, because the Gloves of Dueling affect the Fighter's Weapon Training class feature, which the PC in question possesses; the Weapon Training class feature, as the Fighter.
Based on the FAQs I've presented, subset weapon training features, such as Spear Training, which specifically mentions the Weapon Training class feature, would also be affected by Gloves of Dueling, because it still functions as the Fighter's Weapon Training class feature, which the Gloves of Dueling improve.
It's already been proven that Swashbuckler Weapon training is neither of those things, even if it has "Weapon Training" in the name, because A. It is not an actual Weapon Training class feature, since the mechanics are different, and B. It makes no mention of otherwise functioning as the Fighter's Weapon Training class feature, as you would see with Spear Training.
Therefore, it is painfully obvious what the outcome is: Gloves of Dueling do not affect Swashbuckler Weapon Training.
|
No it is not painfully obvious, otherwise we would not have these threads discussing it. And it certainly hasn't been "proven" one way or the other until a Dev ways in on it.
Swashbuckler Weappn Training gives you improved critical, but it also gives the same binuses as Weapon Training, and the increases. And that FaQ was specific to Archetypes replacing the ability, not other classes with similar abilities.
The fact that with the second printing of UE with all the erratum that was applied and they didn't errata Gloves of Dueling to only work with Fighters leads me to believe that it is meant to work with other Weapon Training.
No it is not painfully obvious, otherwise we would not have these threads discussing it. And it certainly hasn't been "proven" one way or the other until a Dev ways in on it.
Swashbuckler Weappn Training gives you improved critical, but it also gives the same binuses as Weapon Training, and the increases. And that FaQ was specific to Archetypes replacing the ability, not other classes with similar abilities.
The fact that with the second printing of UE with all the erratum that was applied and they didn't errata Gloves of Dueling to only work with Fighters leads me to believe that it is meant to work with other Weapon Training.
Clearly, though in all of those threads, they haven't posed the same arguments that I have, and I said it was painfully obvious in regards to the statements that I've provided, not as a general application.
Except simply granting the same bonuses as Weapon Training doesn't constitute as having the class feature to improve upon it. It's the same reason why Expert Archer, according to the FAQ, doesn't receive the benefits of Gloves of Dueling or Advanced Weapon Training, because even if it uses the same scaling as Weapon Training, it doesn't reference the Weapon Training class feature. I didn't reference the FAQ because it only applies to archetypes, it sets a precedent, something which This FAQ here reinforces.
Dat Strawman doe. They've missed a literal crapton of very important and worthwhile Errata with this printing; Klars, Throwing Shields, the list goes on. Saying that they didn't bother to include it doesn't mean anything, especially when that same concept can apply to things well beyond what the Errata actually covered, and it's also assuming that the Errata will only ever get a Second Printing. Trust me, there will be a third and fourth and so on until Paizo goes under or makes a second edition, and who knows, maybe they will Errata it, maybe they won't, but until then, I'm sticking with the fact that they copy-pasted it from Core, and therefore its goals and applications are still relevant.
"Swashbuckler weapon training" both has a unique name by adding "Swashbuckler" to it and it doesn't work the same as the fighter's weapon training ability. So, I would say there is little evidence it should work with gloves of dueling.
If the ability had the exact same name or worked exactly the same as the "weapon training" ability, I think it would have worked with the gloves.
As further "evidence":
If the wearer has the weapon training class feature and is using an appropriate weapon, her weapon training bonus increases by +2.
Some seem to be interpreting that "the" to be an "a".
We have DEV input saying that swash training doesn't count as fighter training.
Got another Point to throw into the discussion
Fighter Archetype Weapon Master allows you to take Advanced Weapon Training as Bonus Feats .... Since most of those feats refer to the Weapon Training bonus as effect .... and by the above reasoning the form of Weapon Master Weapon Training cant be considered the original Weapon Training Fighter class ability .. how is this supposed to work for the archetype ?
It actually shouldn't work, as you describe.
Here's the full WMH entry:
Highly skilled and experienced fighters can gain advanced weapon training, learning techniques and applications of the weapon training class feature that give them special benefits in exchange for specializing in a smaller number of fighter weapon groups.
Beginning at 9th level, instead of selecting an additional fighter weapon group, a fighter can choose an advanced weapon training option for one fighter weapon group that he previously selected with the weapon training class feature.
The fighter's weapon training bonus still increases for weapons from all fighter weapon groups he previously selected with weapon training. A fighter also adds this bonus to any combat maneuver checks made with weapons from this group. This bonus also applies to the fighter's Combat Maneuver Defense when defending against disarm and sunder attempts made against weapons from this group.
Some advance weapon training options can be selected only if the fighter meets the option's prerequisites.
Advanced weapon training options function only when the fighter is wielding a weapon from the associated group, unless otherwise noted, and use his weapon training bonus for the associated weapon group. Any bonuses on attack rolls and damage rolls granted by advanced weapon training apply only on attack rolls and damage rolls from weapons in the associated group. A fighter with an archetype that replaces weapon training cannot select advanced weapon training options.
Based on the bolded parts, Weapon Master would not be eligible for Advanced Weapon Training, because it requires you to substitute the selection of an additional weapon group (and by a strict reading, that you don't substitute the original Weapon Training feature at all, though I'm almost positive the intent is that you must have some form of Fighter's Weapon Training for this to function, not that if you alter it in some form that makes it still Weapon Training according to the FAQ).
In fact, the only way a Fighter who replaces additional weapon groups could feasibly attain this is by spending feats (or Bonus Feats). As for Weapon Master, the Advanced Weapon Training feat has this to say:
Fighters that have the weapon master archetype can select this feat beginning at 4th level. The benefits of a weapon master’s advanced weapon training options apply only to his selected weapon rather than all weapons in the same fighter weapon group, and he can’t select the weapon specialist advanced weapon training option. A weapon master can select this feat as a bonus feat; if he does so, it doesn’t count for the purpose of the requirement that it can be taken at most once per 5 fighter levels.
So, it actually fits my above interpretation: Weapon Master archetype cannot naturally gain Advanced Weapon Training, because they have no additional weapon groups, but can qualify for the feat earlier (and isn't limited based on their Fighter level for selecting it) than any other kind of Fighter.
We have DEV input saying that swash training doesn't count as fighter training.
[citation needed]
Not that I don't believe you, but I'd like to provide it as evidence to support my own claim.
We have DEV input saying that swash training doesn't count as fighter training.[citation needed]
Not that I don't believe you, but I'd like to provide it as evidence to support my own claim.
Here's Stephen Radney-MacFarland stating back in the second round of ACG playtest that swashbuckler weapon training, as written, doesn't count for gloves of dueling (which would mean it wouldn't count as weapon training) and that MAYBE there will be a change of wording on the ability.
Swashbuckler Weapon Training (Ex): At 5th level, a swashbuckler gains a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls with one-handed or light piercing melee weapons. While wielding such a weapon, she gains the benefit of the Improved Critical feat. These attack and damage bonuses increase by 1 for every four levels beyond 5th level (to a maximum of +4 at 17th level).
Swashbuckler Weapon Training (Ex): At 5th level, a swashbuckler gains a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls with one-handed or light piercing melee weapons. While wielding such a weapon, she gains the benefit of the Improved Critical feat. These attack and damage bonuses increase by 1 for every 4 levels beyond 5th (to a maximum of +4 at 17th level).
No change in the wording (besides losing the word "level" in "5th level" at the very end) so no change to his statement.
I'm not sure if there's a more recent developer comment on the matter.
Protoman has one the posts I was thinking of.
The other is the Creator of AWT saying how the swash WT is as much fighter WT as the rogue's WT is.
|
|
We have DEV input saying that swash training doesn't count as fighter training.[citation needed]
Not that I don't believe you, but I'd like to provide it as evidence to support my own claim.
Here's Stephen Radney-MacFarland stating back in the second round of ACG playtest that swashbuckler weapon training, as written, doesn't count for gloves of dueling (which would mean it wouldn't count as weapon training) and that MAYBE there will be a change of wording on the ability.
Swashbuckler Weapon Training (Ex): At 5th level, a swashbuckler gains a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls with one-handed or light piercing melee weapons. While wielding such a weapon, she gains the benefit of the Improved Critical feat. These attack and damage bonuses increase by 1 for every four levels beyond 5th level (to a maximum of +4 at 17th level).Swashbuckler Weapon Training (Ex): At 5th level, a swashbuckler gains a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls with one-handed or light piercing melee weapons. While wielding such a weapon, she gains the benefit of the Improved Critical feat. These attack and damage bonuses increase by 1 for every 4 levels beyond 5th (to a maximum of +4 at 17th level).No change in the wording (besides losing the word "level" in "5th level" at the very end) so no change to his statement.
I'm not sure if there's a more recent developer comment on the matter.
Uh, he literally started his response with "not sure".
Not sure.
As it is written right now...no. I'm considering changing the wording of the class feature based on this questions but I need to do more thinking and research on the ramifications. It may be just easier to design similar magic items for the Advanced Class Guide that do work with swashbuckler weapon training.
Uh, he literally started his response with "not sure".
Not sure.
As it is written right now...no. I'm considering changing the wording of the class feature based on this questions but I need to do more thinking and research on the ramifications. It may be just easier to design similar magic items for the Advanced Class Guide that do work with swashbuckler weapon training.
"Not sure" as in he was thinking of changing it.
He specifically acknowledges the wording doesn't allow it to work with a definite "No".Protoman has one the posts I was thinking of.
The other is the Creator of AWT saying how the swash WT is as much fighter WT as the rogue's WT is.
Thanks for that link, Chess Pwn, gonna favourite Alex's post so I can reference that one in the future!
|
|
Uh, he literally started his response with "not sure".
Not sure.
As it is written right now...no. I'm considering changing the wording of the class feature based on this questions but I need to do more thinking and research on the ramifications. It may be just easier to design similar magic items for the Advanced Class Guide that do work with swashbuckler weapon training."Not sure" as in he was thinking of changing it.
He specifically acknowledges the wording doesn't allow it to work with a definite "No".Thanks for that link, Chess Pwn, gonna favourite Alex's post so I can reference that one in the future!Protoman has one the posts I was thinking of.
The other is the Creator of AWT saying how the swash WT is as much fighter WT as the rogue's WT is.
At the time of the playtest. Which was not the final version. Pretty much everything in that post was in *shrug* territory since he started with "not sure" (so definitely not a "definite") and also said he needed to do more thinking on it.
And AA's post was for AWT, which Swashbucklers don't get since they don't get extra weapon groups to trade out.
Yea I'm aware the statement was during the playtest. That's why I quoted the playtest wording and the finalized wording to show the lack of any change. Since the playtest and finalized versions are the same, his statement, "As it is written right now...no" still stands for swashbuckler weapon training and gloves of dueling not working together.
If the gloves of dueling isn't working, then swashbuckler weapon training isn't the same as "weapon training class feature" so no AWT for swashbuckler weapon training.
|
|
Yea I'm aware the statement was during the playtest. That's why I quoted the playtest wording and the finalized wording to show the lack of any change. Since the playtest and finalized versions are the same, his statement, "As it is written right now...no" still stands for swashbuckler weapon training and gloves of dueling not working together.
If the gloves of dueling isn't working, then swashbuckler weapon training isn't the same as "weapon training class feature" so no AWT for swashbuckler weapon training.
He said as written (referring to the playtest), but also said he needed he needed to do more thinking and research, again going back to the "not sure".
And I specifically said they didn't qualify for Advanced Weapon Training, but I do believe they would work with Gloves of Dueling.
It seems to me that the Gloves won't give you a double bonus. If Swashbuckler Weapon Training is not the same as Weapon Training then it doesn't benefit from the Gloves. If Swashbuckler Weapon Training is the same as Weapon Training then they will stack and the Gloves will only apply once to that result. Either way you only get the bonus once.
Yea I'm aware the statement was during the playtest. That's why I quoted the playtest wording and the finalized wording to show the lack of any change. Since the playtest and finalized versions are the same, his statement, "As it is written right now...no" still stands for swashbuckler weapon training and gloves of dueling not working together.
If the gloves of dueling isn't working, then swashbuckler weapon training isn't the same as "weapon training class feature" so no AWT for swashbuckler weapon training.
He said as written (referring to the playtest), but also said he needed he needed to do more thinking and research, again going back to the "not sure".
And I specifically said they didn't qualify for Advanced Weapon Training, but I do believe they would work with Gloves of Dueling.
My original post was directed at Darksol asking for a citation for developer comment about swashbuckler weapon training not counting as weapon training. The quote I found was a more indirect way for the answer he wanted, not to any posts you've made about gloves of dueling.
As for gloves of dueling, Stephen said back in the playtest with the wording back then, that it doesn't work with the gloves. I concede it wasn't a definite "No" back then, and that he'd think about having it changed. Since then the wording and rules of swashbuckler weapon training have not changed, the wording of it working with "gloves of dueling" would still be concluded with a "No" now.
|
|
Yea I'm aware the statement was during the playtest. That's why I quoted the playtest wording and the finalized wording to show the lack of any change. Since the playtest and finalized versions are the same, his statement, "As it is written right now...no" still stands for swashbuckler weapon training and gloves of dueling not working together.
If the gloves of dueling isn't working, then swashbuckler weapon training isn't the same as "weapon training class feature" so no AWT for swashbuckler weapon training.
He said as written (referring to the playtest), but also said he needed he needed to do more thinking and research, again going back to the "not sure".
And I specifically said they didn't qualify for Advanced Weapon Training, but I do believe they would work with Gloves of Dueling.
My original post was directed at Darksol asking for a citation for developer comment about swashbuckler weapon training not counting as weapon training. The quote I found was a more indirect way for the answer he wanted, not to any posts you've made about gloves of dueling.
As for gloves of dueling, Stephen said back in the playtest with the wording back then, that it doesn't work with the gloves. I concede it wasn't a definite "No" back then, and that he'd think about having it changed. Since then the wording and rules of swashbuckler weapon training have not changed, the wording of it working with "gloves of dueling" would still be concluded with a "No" now.
And I would agree with, since the wording didn't change. But the certainty of that statement was tossed since he prefaced it with "Not sure".
For all we know his opinion did change since the playtest after thinking and researching it.
And I would agree with, since the wording didn't change. But the certainty of that statement was tossed since he prefaced it with "Not sure".
For all we know his opinion did change since the playtest after thinking and researching it.
And decided to keep the original wording that he felt would keep it from working with gloves of dueling and not have it changed in the finalized ACG and the first round of errata for 2nd printing?
|
|
And decided to keep the original wording that he felt would keep it from working with gloves of dueling and not have it changed in the finalized ACG and the first round of errata for 2nd printing?And I would agree with, since the wording didn't change. But the certainty of that statement was tossed since he prefaced it with "Not sure".
For all we know his opinion did change since the playtest after thinking and researching it.
He said it wouldn't work. He also said he wasn't sure. He also said he needed to do more research and think on it.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Regardless of whether it works or not, I know they need to stop f*$@ing calling every other thing Weapon Training.
THAT we can all agree with!
But but, that stops my wizards from getting arcane weapon training for their spells And the vigilante from having a "Definitely not weapon training" And the occultist from getting a "trained with weapons" ability