You may find it irrelevant, but the minimum wage differs for tipped employees. That is simply a fact.
As irontruth as quoted and linked the relevants laws to, if a server receives tips insufficient to bring them up to federal minimum wage, their employer is obligated to reimburse them the difference.
Whatever amount it adds to the discussion, it's certainly more than the number of restaurants your crusade has redeemed from the heathen pits of tipping.
If you can't accept basic fiscal responsibility for your chosen path in life then no amount of value added by anything or anyone will save you from the inevitable hardships you will needlessly suffer.
Whatever amount it adds to the discussion, it's certainly more than the number of restaurants your crusade has redeemed from the heathen pits of tipping.If you can't accept basic fiscal responsibility for your chosen path in life then no amount of value added by anything or anyone will save you from the inevitable hardships you will needlessly suffer.
Excellent paraphrase of Rand's monologue about the necessity of a man's own worth being the equal of his money!
But pointless here; servers work hard for their money, tips included, and are obviously accepting fiscal responsibility for them.
If that's so, then they can subsist on the federal minimum wage as that is their guaranteed pay. If so, I would restate it not being my job to enrich them as I'm not their employer. If so, I would restate that tipping does come down to whether or not they can buy iPods and lattes and not if they can pay bills. If so, they need zero tips.
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If that's so, then they can subsist on the federal minimum wage as that is their guaranteed pay.
Guaranteed pay and reasonably expected pay are, in this case, two different things. Why are you trying to make it seem like they are one and the same?
Would you call working as a wealthy, self-employed contractor fiscally irresponsible? Why not? After all, he has no guaranteed pay. He needs to elicit contracts (oh no! begging!) in order to be paid anything. That doesn't mean he doesn't make any money, though, or that he doesn't have a reasonable expectation of income.
Stop being purposefully obtuse. If your philosophy requires that you engage in false equivocation in order to reconcile it with the world around you, get a new philosophy.
Stop being purposefully obtuse. If your philosophy requires that you engage in false equivocation in order to reconcile it with the world around you, get a new philosophy.
We can dream.
Stop being purposefully obtuse. If your philosophy requires that you engage in false equivocation in order to reconcile it with the world around you, get a new philosophy.We can dream.
The worst part is he actually believes he's being a good objectivist/libertarian. He thinks that's what they actually believe.
If that's so, then they can subsist on the federal minimum wage as that is their guaranteed pay.Guaranteed pay and reasonably expected pay are, in this case, two different things. Why are you trying to make it seem like they are one and the same?
Would you call working as a wealthy, self-employed contractor fiscally irresponsible? Why not? After all, he has no guaranteed pay. He needs to elicit contracts (oh no! begging!) in order to be paid anything. That doesn't mean he doesn't make any money, though, or that he doesn't have a reasonable expectation of income.
Stop being purposefully obtuse. If your philosophy requires that you engage in false equivocation in order to reconcile it with the world around you, get a new philosophy.
Does the contractor negotiate their pay up front? Or do they provide their work, then politely ask to be paid, without any contractual expectation?
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One of the problems is also that the current minimum wage isn't a living wage in most (all?) places.
Their employer pays them for their time. This is an arrangement both parties have agreed to. It's their job.
Yep, and they should absolutely be paid for their time and work regardless of how many customers there are. Or at least, that is how many sensible countries do it. If you are doing customer service/IT work to speak of another industry, you still get paid whether it is a slow day or a busy day. Same should apply to diners, restaurants and fast food joints.
Do CEO's get paid for less busy days? Yes they do. It should be the same across the board.
Standardisation I say!
The best part of this is that if you're a proper libertarian, the minimum wage is a horrible government intrusion into the free market.
People should be free to work for nothing but tips and the owners of the business should be under no legal obligation to make up the difference and libertarians would still argue there was no reason to tip, since there'd be no explicit contract between them and the waiter.
The technical term is "free rider". And libertarians love being that.
Is libertarian socialism an impossible idea?
Or libertarianism with any sort of support for a social net?
Why can't one support increasing liberty and a decent minimum wage? Economic capital makes one more free and grants more options after all.
Do libertarians always have to go full throttle anti-gov all the time? I don't think so.
I think some other countries have a quite different take on libertarianism compared to American libertarians. Countries with more leftist views on politics.
Does the contractor negotiate their pay up front? Or do they provide their work, then politely ask to be paid, without any contractual expectation?If that's so, then they can subsist on the federal minimum wage as that is their guaranteed pay.Guaranteed pay and reasonably expected pay are, in this case, two different things. Why are you trying to make it seem like they are one and the same?
Would you call working as a wealthy, self-employed contractor fiscally irresponsible? Why not? After all, he has no guaranteed pay. He needs to elicit contracts (oh no! begging!) in order to be paid anything. That doesn't mean he doesn't make any money, though, or that he doesn't have a reasonable expectation of income.
Stop being purposefully obtuse. If your philosophy requires that you engage in false equivocation in order to reconcile it with the world around you, get a new philosophy.
Why is the distinction meaningful? Is it a requirement that business be conducted by explicit contract? Is a transaction supported by nearly ubiquitous cultural norms inherently irresponsible?
Their employer pays them for their time. This is an arrangement both parties have agreed to. It's their job.Yep, and they should absolutely be paid for their time and work regardless of how many customers there are. Or at least, that is how many sensible countries do it. If you are doing customer service/IT work to speak of another industry, you still get paid whether it is a slow day or a busy day. Same should apply to diners, restaurants and fast food joints.
Do CEO's get paid for less busy days? Yes they do. It should be the same across the board.
Standardisation I say!
And until the day when that standardization takes place, give less money to your servers to show those fat cat business owners what-for! Right?
Is libertarian socialism an impossible idea?
I think the general consensus is that it is. Libertarianism places value in personal freedom, and socialism places bounds on that freedom through social programs with enforceable participation. Most practical governments seek a balance between those competing goals, but the end result cannot be properly termed "libertarian socialism".
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Why is the distinction meaningful? Is it a requirement that business be conducted by explicit contract? Is a transaction supported by nearly ubiquitous cultural norms inherently irresponsible?Does the contractor negotiate their pay up front? Or do they provide their work, then politely ask to be paid, without any contractual expectation?If that's so, then they can subsist on the federal minimum wage as that is their guaranteed pay.Guaranteed pay and reasonably expected pay are, in this case, two different things. Why are you trying to make it seem like they are one and the same?
Would you call working as a wealthy, self-employed contractor fiscally irresponsible? Why not? After all, he has no guaranteed pay. He needs to elicit contracts (oh no! begging!) in order to be paid anything. That doesn't mean he doesn't make any money, though, or that he doesn't have a reasonable expectation of income.
Stop being purposefully obtuse. If your philosophy requires that you engage in false equivocation in order to reconcile it with the world around you, get a new philosophy.
Because you're going on and on about how mean it is to not pay them. I agree, I think they should have a system where they can agree upon the value of their labor, instead of just hoping that after they provide it, someone values it.
You keep defending the system vociferously, if you truly care about the workers, why not argue in favor of a system that defends their rights?
I haven't gotten banned for saying that objectivists are worthless scum who hate the idea of generosity or cooperation yet. I wonder if Hobbes would have expected people to say, "All against all? F$&~ yeah, right on!"
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Self righteous non-tipping cheapskate gamers disguised as libertarians to justify amoral behavior make me fail my save verses sanity.
-MD
Because you're going on and on about how mean it is to not pay them. I agree, I think they should have a system where they can agree upon the value of their labor, instead of just hoping that after they provide it, someone values it.
Calling it a "hope" is something of an exaggeration, isn't it? When they can reasonably expect to receive an average tip amount of around 18% of their tables' bills over the course of, say, a month, how much hoping are they doing?
You keep defending the system vociferously, if you truly care about the workers, why not argue in favor of a system that defends their rights?
What the balls?
I have repeatedly argued in favor of increases to the minimum wage in this thread. And I'm hardly a vociferous defender of the system itself - if tipping were replaced with a mandatory service charge, I certainly wouldn't lose any sleep over it. What I am arguing is that, regardless of what you feel about tipping, it's downright callous (not to mention myopic) to dine somewhere and deny your server a tip because you don't like the fact that tips are how we as a society partially compensate wait staff.
Self righteous non-tipping cheapskate gamers disguised as libertarians
They're not even good disguises. They're the $20 plastic seasonal Halloween store version of libertarian disguises.
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DM don't confuse Libertarianism with small l Australian liberalism it is closer in nature large L Liberal party conservatism, ie screw the poor and maintain the status quo where the rich keep getting richer.
Self righteous non-tipping cheapskate gamers disguised as libertarians to justify amoral behavior make me fail my save verses sanity.
-MD
Wait, so it isn't Fear that is the mind-killer?
{strums baliset} Behold, as a wild ass in the desert, go I forth to my snark.
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Wait, so it isn't Fear that is the mind-killer?Self righteous non-tipping cheapskate gamers disguised as libertarians to justify amoral behavior make me fail my save verses sanity.
-MD
lol, the only thing I'd fear today is being a waiter for some of people posting in this tread.
An honest Randian would at least admit that his philosophy is that "I look out for myself, and devil take everyone else." That kind of honesty I can respect, even if I can't say the same for that school of thought.The worst part is he actually believes he's being a good objectivist/libertarian. He thinks that's what they actually believe.Stop being purposefully obtuse. If your philosophy requires that you engage in false equivocation in order to reconcile it with the world around you, get a new philosophy.We can dream.Oddly I've never met an honest one.
Even Ayn Rand dressed in up in all sorts of fancy rhetoric about how it was better for everyone and the world as a whole.
The honest ones tend to be disabused of the notion after a year or so.
Because you're going on and on about how mean it is to not pay them. I agree, I think they should have a system where they can agree upon the value of their labor, instead of just hoping that after they provide it, someone values it.Calling it a "hope" is something of an exaggeration, isn't it? When they can reasonably expect to receive an average tip amount of around 18% of their tables' bills over the course of, say, a month, how much hoping are they doing?
You keep defending the system vociferously, if you truly care about the workers, why not argue in favor of a system that defends their rights?What the balls?
I have repeatedly argued in favor of increases to the minimum wage in this thread. And I'm hardly a vociferous defender of the system itself - if tipping were replaced with a mandatory service charge, I certainly wouldn't lose any sleep over it. What I am arguing is that, regardless of what you feel about tipping, it's downright callous (not to mention myopic) to dine somewhere and deny your server a tip because you don't like the fact that tips are how we as a society partially compensate wait staff.
So, you've been working on this one a%!+%%+ for... 2 days? and you haven't quite convinced him yet. How long do you think it'll take to get them all?
People will always stiff servers. Instead of putting the risk squarely on the server, it should be put on the entire business.
So, you've been working on this one a$&~~** for... 2 days? and you haven't quite convinced him yet. How long do you think it'll take to get them all?
As I've said before, I'm not here to convince him to change his mind. That will never happen on an internet message board about a tabletop game. This is entertainment, and perhaps a bit of schadenfreude.
People will always stiff servers. Instead of putting the risk squarely on the server, it should be put on the entire business.
It is, or at least in the sense that if tips don't pay well enough the business must make up the difference between the server's earning and the minimum wage. Increasing the minimum wage to livable levels would make this a total non-issue.
Frankly I'm lazy and have no expectations of being able to change the world, but I'll still respond to people saying stupid things when I notice.
This is basically my position, albeit with perhaps a bit less disillusionment about being able to change the world. But it's sure as hell not happening on these forums.
If you ever wanted to meet Comrade Anklebiter...just drop on by!
Otherwise, National Campaign
Vive le Galt!
Bump
Is libertarian socialism an impossible idea?I think the general consensus is that it is. Libertarianism places value in personal freedom, and socialism places bounds on that freedom through social programs with enforceable participation. Most practical governments seek a balance between those competing goals, but the end result cannot be properly termed "libertarian socialism".As he suggested, you're thinking of the American version of Libertarianism.
Libertarian Socialism is a real thing. The short description is a combination of libertarianism's distrust of government and socialism's economic approach. The people own the means of production, not capital and not government. Essentially Marx's end-stage communism after the state has withered away, but without going through the dictatorship of the proletariat to get there.
Bakunin and Kropotkin were early influences.Would it actually work? Probably not, at least in a pure form. But that's true of US Libertarianism as well. Along with pretty much every other pure theoretical political/economic system. We are messy complicated creatures and need messy complicated systems to keep up with us.
** spoiler omitted **
Yep, this guy gets it. Was checking to see if it had even been heard of. A whole world beyond America and its philosophies. :P
I know some soft anarchists that don't want to entirely leave the bosom of the state they hate are in favour of it. Less power to competing interests, more freedom, some security.
BumpIf you ever wanted to meet Comrade Anklebiter...just drop on by!
Otherwise, National Campaign
Vive le Galt!
Poor DBug gets spammed by my anti conservative posts on face book...
I am going to a protest march in March, first one in 10 years.
Yep, this guy gets it.
But still thinks you should tip.
Poor DBug gets spammed by my anti conservative posts on face book...
I am going to a protest march in March, first one in 10 years.
Vive le Galt!
Also, don't worry about the spam. Believe me, 7/8ths of my FB feed is politics and the other 1/8 is pictures of blue-scrotumed monkeys. Oh wait a minute, that was you, too...
I won't be favoriting any left Labourites or Fabians though, I'm afraid. A) I'm wicked sectarian; B) I know nothing of Aussie politics (I did recognize that Gina Plutocrat, however). Doesn't mean I'm not looking at them however. :)
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Libertarian Socialism is a real thing.
Yep, this guy gets it. Was checking to see if it had even been heard of. A whole world beyond America and its philosophies. :P
I know some soft anarchists that don't want to entirely leave the bosom of the state they hate are in favour of it. Less power to competing interests, more freedom, some security.
A) Libertarian, authoritarian, I don't give a f$~$, let's smash capitalism!!!
B) Charles Fourier, Herbert Marcuse, Oscar Wilde, Anton Pannekoek, Emma Goldman, Murray Bookchin, man, that wiki page is like reading through my post archives!
I didn't realize this was going to be so volatile but in retrospect I probably should have known better.
Also, I got fired from the job where I was getting tipped. So that's the other great thing about being a tipped worker, no job security ;)
Blue scrotumed monkeys are the only way to end a thread.
I didn't realize this was going to be so volatile but in retrospect I probably should have known better.
Also, I got fired from the job where I was getting tipped. So that's the other great thing about being a tipped worker, no job security ;)
I think this probably has less to do with the job involving tips, and more to do with the fact that serving is generally seen as unskilled work that can be quickly trained up and for which the demand remains fairly steady, all of which contribute to low job security.
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I apologize if I've entered into the thread at an awkward moment. It's at 443 posts prior to mine, so forgive me if I repeat somebody's(ies') sentiment.
I was a server for quite a few years. I was very good at it. I usually left a shift with about 19% take-home. I tipped out to my host staff and service bar a total of about 5%. (All percent values reflect a percent of sales prior to tax or tip). I typically worked about 30 hours a week and made great money.
That "great" money was by no means easy. It was the highest stress job I've managed to hold for any mention-able time. It was also the job with the greatest level of genuine teamwork and support. High-stress, high-support. By some studies that I've never read or even checked to make sure that they exist, this is the ideal professional environment for talented individuals. I agree.
Now to the point. I worked hard. Really hard. I ensured that you (generic, in this case) had everything you wanted, but never had to ask for it. I got paid .5xminimum wage by my employer (altogether legal) which just about covered my taxes to IRS and MD (and county, neither here nor there).
Tip your damn waiter. If you never really had to speak to him/her but got everything you wanted, tip more.
I think this probably has less to do with the job involving tips, and more to do with the fact that serving is generally seen as unskilled work that can be quickly trained up and for which the demand remains fairly steady, all of which contribute to low job security.
...which is going to be true of most jobs that are tipped, yes? I wasn't a high-priced gigolo, I was a delivery driver.
Abyssian - out of interest, was the restaurant you worked at low / middle / high end?
I've a feeling that mid-high range restaurant experiences are a decent distance from low-end restaurant outcomes.
T.G.I. Friday's in Greenbelt, MD and The Cheesecake Factory in North Bethesda, MD are the most indicative of my experience, but I also worked at Timpano Steakhouse in Rockville, MD for a while.
Fridays has the luxury of being in a "hub" for underprivileged, non-skilled, low-income patrons, while TCF and Timpano catered to a much better and WAY better income clientele, respectively (despite being half a mile down the road from one another).
Well, I have to go to bed, now. Feel free to ask any questions... I managed three restaurants, too, and bartended at Bennigan's while it still existed.
good night [/day]
The worst part is he actually believes he's being a good objectivist/libertarian. He thinks that's what they actually believe.
Where did I say my views are born or representative of libertarianism? I didn't. So, shut your mouth. I've actually stated I have views apart from whatever groups which I may be a member and challenged you to be able to make the same claim. I associate with libertarianism because they have the most views I agree with as compared to another political party. To try to boil everything I've been saying down to political ideology is missing the vast majority of what I've been saying. To try to use that mistaken base to try to turn my arguments back on me is laughable at best.