It would be fantastic wouldn't it?
Some are trying to introduce tipping into the city I am currently in. They get all sly about it, they want a bit on the top.
No thanks, we have labour wage laws.
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I generally tip pretty alright, but this thread has reinforced two things for me:
1) Tipping is a holdover of noblesse oblige and should be abolished forthwith--For $15/hour and a union!;
2) I'd be able to take the shills for Obama and their self-righteousness a bit more srly if their party wasn't equally complicit in the assault on the living standards of the working class.
Break with the Democrats and Republicans!
For a workers party!
Vive le Galt!
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I tried to walk away from the boards today, I really did, and then I found this in my Facebook feed:
$2.13 Is the Tipping Point — America's Food Servers Are Grossly Underpaid
Organize the unorganized!
Vive le Galt!
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At this point, I really don't care what idealogical stand a customer offers for never tipping in an American restaurant.
But if you dine in an American restaurant with the full intention of never tipping, then I appeal to you to be fully transparent with your server before you place your order. If you can't be at least that honest with your server before they render services for you, then you are a coward too.
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... and if the waiter or waitress is a jerk or provides terrible service, you leave two cents. This lets them know that you didn't forget, and think they suck at their job. This would only apply, though, for a truly horrific experience.
I thought the trick was five quarters in an overturned water glass.
It's rough to be in any part of the food service industry. It needs serious reforms. Many goals would be achieved by simply reclassifying waitstaff away from being tipped to just being regular employees.
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It's rough to be in any part of the food service industry. It needs serious reforms. Many goals would be achieved by simply reclassifying waitstaff away from being tipped to just being regular employees.
In the meantime, I'm glad you are taking a principled stand and refusing to dine in any restaurant that refuses to pay their servers at least the minimum wage.
But if you dine there anyway, and still refuse to tip without first disclosing how you are altering the unspoken service contract between you and your server, then you aren't making a principled stand... you are instead a cheapskate, a thief, and a coward.
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So be it. However you label me I hope it keeps you warm and fuzzy.
In the meantime, I'm glad you are taking a principled stand and refusing to dine in any restaurant that refuses to pay their servers at least the minimum wage.
Hmm... last time I was visiting the US, the restaurants didn't exactly advertise what wages they were paying their servers... and my education tells me that flat-out asking the server what her income is, before I even get seated, is a tad... impolite.
So, how do I find out?
So be it. However you label me I hope it keeps you warm and fuzzy.
Your own admitted actions label you.
What I'm suggesting that whatever your reasons for never tipping, they are irrelevant when you sit down to be served at an American restaurant. Your server is under the assumption that the social contract holds: if he/she delivers satisfactory or better service to you, you will tip to offset their well-below minimum wage. If you are going to change the contract, you should disclose that you are changing it before they begin working to serve you. If you change the contract and don't disclose first, then you aren't making any type of principled stand... you are instead a cheapskate, a thief, and a coward. I'm merely suggesting you at least be honest with yourself about it.
Playing Devil's Advocate...
The classification of cheapskate, and coward; I can agree with. The classification of thief, not so much.
I am aware that acting this way may actually cost the server money.
Yet, I fail to see the legal definition of stealing being fulfilled...
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Playing Devil's Advocate...
The classification of cheapskate, and coward; I can agree with. The classification of thief, not so much.
I am aware that acting this way may actually cost the server money.
Yet, I fail to see the legal definition of stealing being fulfilled...
You are getting services you refuse to pay for.
In the meantime, I'm glad you are taking a principled stand and refusing to dine in any restaurant that refuses to pay their servers at least the minimum wage.Hmm... last time I was visiting the US, the restaurants didn't exactly advertise what wages they were paying their servers... and my education tells me that flat-out asking the server what her income is, before I even get seated, is a tad... impolite.
So, how do I find out?
If you are in an American sitdown (non-fast food) restaurant where you are served tableside, look at the menu. If it does not say in print the servers are paid at least minimum wage (or that a gratuity is automatically included), then your server makes below-minimum wage and depends on tips. It is also customary for the server to pay a percentage of tips to the busser, and a set amount to the bartender for each alcoholic beverage you order. Unless you are just getting a cup of coffee and danish/pastry or similar small bite, your conventional tip should be enough to cover the busser's take. I generally leave a buck or so extra for each beverage that a bartender prepares.
You are getting services you refuse to pay for.
Ah, but wouldn't this be more akin to swindling, rather than stealing?
*ducks for cover*
If you are in an American sitdown (non-fast food) restaurant where you are served tableside, look at the menu. If it does not say in print the servers are paid at least minimum wage (or that a gratuity is automatically included), then your server makes below-minimum wage and depends on tips. It is also customary for the server to pay a percentage of tips to the busser, and a set amount to the bartender for each alcoholic beverage you order.
Understood; thanks! One more thing to look for when going abroad.
(Side note: I do tip; though I have to admit I wasn't aware of the customary percentage first time I visited the US... and mistakenly only gave the 10 percent that are customary where I live (more for exceptional service). Didn't repeat that mistake, though.)
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You know, re-reading this thread before going to work, I was struck by this comment of Citizen Buri's which appears to have been entirely overlooked:
"I tend to not tip but not out of douchebaggery. I want the wait staff to be angry. I want them to complain to their boss. They deserve a guaranteed fair wage and shouldn't feel like they have to kiss ass to get one nor do I think customers should feel they have to bribe someone to not f+~@ with their food or give them poor service. This whole exchange is inherently antagonistic and is unnecessary. I'd gladly pay more for eating out if this were remedied.
"When I do tip I tip well even upwards of 50-75% if you really impressed me with your service. I make good money." (Emphasis added)
So, all you 15%ers, who's the cheapskate now?
So, all you 15%ers, who's the cheapskate now?
I tip 20% or better when I eat at a sitdown table-side serviced restaurant. I have never made more than $27K a year. If that makes me a cheapskate, so be it.
As I am unemployed, I don't eat out anymore, not even off dollar menus.
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You know, re-reading this thread before going to work, I was struck by this comment of Citizen Buri's which appears to have been entirely overlooked:
"I tend to not tip but not out of douchebaggery. I want the wait staff to be angry. I want them to complain to their boss. They deserve a guaranteed fair wage and shouldn't feel like they have to kiss ass to get one nor do I think customers should feel they have to bribe someone to not f+~@ with their food or give them poor service. This whole exchange is inherently antagonistic and is unnecessary. I'd gladly pay more for eating out if this were remedied.
"When I do tip I tip well even upwards of 50-75% if you really impressed me with your service. I make good money." (Emphasis added)
So, all you 15%ers, who's the cheapskate now?
He is. He outright says he makes good money but feels it is his right to not pay for services rendered to him and have the other people at the resturant subsidize his meal.
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He is. He outright says he makes good money but feels it is his right to not pay for services rendered to him and have the other people at the resturant subsidize his meal.
Indeed. Giving one man a feast while letting twenty others starve is not generosity. At least, not the kind I care to see.
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The Sub-minimum wage and the Tip Credit
In 1966, Congress added restaurant tipped employees to the FLSA (Fair Labor Standards Act) and created the concept of the “Tip Credit”. The Tip credit allows employers in most states to meet their main wage obligation by having a certain amount of tips count toward the applicable minimum wage. It means servers receive a special, sub-minimum wage that is lower than the full applicable minimum wage. This special sub-minimum wage (federal $2.13) + servers tips (tip credit) minus a tip pool, must equal or exceed the full applicable State or Federal minimum wage.
The tip credit was supposed to only allow employers to credit a certain amount of an employees’ tips to the employer. It was argued that employers create the conditions that enable tipped employees to earn tips and as such, employers should be allowed to financially benefit from some of the tips their employees receive from customers. The original bill only allowed employers to credit tips to themselves by an amount up to half of the applicable minimum wage.
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Looks like the subsidization isn't for the meal, it's for the poverty wages. Like our tax dollars subsidize poverty wages at McDonald's or Wal-Mart. But I am happy to look at other articles.
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I've yet to be asked to leave an establishment.
Sounds like they need new management, then. And, now, we can go full circle with the same arguments and responses.
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In fact, by the time anyone knows otherwise, you're already leaving.
Why not pull me back in? I've revisited places many times. I've never gotten a note from management, none of the servers, no dirty looks, no attitudes, no bad food, and so on. No one except those I've been with may have remarked about it after the fact. In my experience it acts like a thing that others force upon themselves and others rather than being an industry expectation.
I've yet to be asked to leave an establishment.Of course not, because you're not hurting the management.
In fact, by the time anyone knows otherwise, you're already leaving.
Which is the other stupid part about relying on tips... how many businesses give away their services before agreeing upon the value of those services? Restaurants owners don't do it, why should servers?
Internet discussions like this fascinate me. Someone is able to express what is generally held as a contemptible opinion and can stand firm, confident in their unpopular stance, because they suffer little to no repurcussions. This is a near-anonymous situation, they will not suffer social stigmatization because we don't actually move in the same social groups. Their actual name and identity won't be impacted because those they know as themselves are not privy to thie conversation (usually).
It appears to be one of the few instances where a sociopath can express their repellent opinions and be perfectly safe in doing so.
Are you interested in defending the morality of the tipping system? So far, no ones really taken me up on it. They defend it because it happens to be the system we have, but no one has really presented much of an argument of why we should have the system in place at all.
I ask, because you're talking about the lack of morality of someone who doesn't want to tip. Therefore, you must see a positive morality within that system.
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I'm curious as to why the "cheapskate" comments aren't directed at the establishments who don't provide a living wage for their employees. Of course, none of said owners are present, but
Most commentators here seem to agree that wait-staff is being underpaid, but so far it's only Comrade Anklebiter who has advocated for unionising (of course, I wouldn't expect anything less from him - and I totally agree with going that route). I was especially taken back with Scott Betts, who's been an outspoken Democrat in the past, apparently supporting the current system.
If people don't mind paying the extra 15-20% then a similar increase in the listed food price should be acceptable - provided the establishment also paid a living wage as a minimum, of course.
Or do people actually like the ability to "lord over" their wait-staff by possibly punishing them for not living up to their personal standards? Looking at it that way, who are the ones with questionable ethics then?
It has also been mentioned that wait-staff doesn't have much bargaining power. That's certainly true at the moment, especially with at least one political party trying to squash unions in every way they can. But you know who has a huge bargaining power? You, the customer. Don't frequent the places who do not pay their employees a fair wage. If you really want the best for the service industry workers, then that should be an easy step to take, right?
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I'm curious as to why the "cheapskate" comments aren't directed at the establishments who don't provide a living wage for their employees.
Because that is a foregone conclusion. I absolutely support abolishing the tip system. It would make eating out so much easier.
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There are lots of things I think are wrong systemically.
That doesn't mean I'd be right to pretend they don't exist and penalize innocent people.
I'd like to be able to park in front of my apartment, but I don't use this as an excuse to shoot the meter maid.