Customary Tipping


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Craig Bonham 141 wrote:
It's like saying you don't think people should be allowed to charge for food so you just steal.

I LOL'd. They just dine-n-dash. Then hop on internet messageboards to tell everybody how they justify it to themselves because the farmers are underpaid. They're stickin' it to the man!


Haladir wrote:

Here in New York, 20% tip is customary for standard service in a restaurant, more if the service is good. 15% means you feel the service was somehow substandard, 10% if the waiter was actively rude to you. You don't ever fail to leave a tip-- if the service was that bad, you walk out before the food is served.

I usually leave 20% of the total bill, including taxes, and I round up to the nearest dollar.

There's a diner my wife, kid, and I go to for breakfast every Sunday before church. We've been going just about weekly for 15 years. We know just about everyone in the restaurant: the owner, the manager, the waitstaff, and the cook, plus all of the other regular customers. We love dining out surrounded by people that feel like family. The Sunday before Christmas, we usually add a $50 tip, because we like the place so much and they like us.

Growing up in NY, I have always been taught 15% was standard, 20-25% for excelent service.


Buri wrote:
You DO tip at McDonalds?

Personally I'm British, so therefore the OP specifically excluded me for the query.


DSXMachina wrote:
Craig Bonham 141 wrote:

Yeah, never been a waiter but this ticks me off hugely. You tip or you eat at McDonalds (or better yet, at home).

It's like saying you don't think people should be allowed to charge for food so you just steal. You know how the system is set up, you're stealing people's work.

So you don't tip at McDonalds? How about Burger King or Wendys?

It's customary not to tip at fast food places, save for when it's a delivery (and then you're tipping them for getting your food to you while it's still hot).


MagusJanus wrote:
DSXMachina wrote:
Craig Bonham 141 wrote:

Yeah, never been a waiter but this ticks me off hugely. You tip or you eat at McDonalds (or better yet, at home).

It's like saying you don't think people should be allowed to charge for food so you just steal. You know how the system is set up, you're stealing people's work.

So you don't tip at McDonalds? How about Burger King or Wendys?
It's customary not to tip at fast food places, save for when it's a delivery (and then you're tipping them for getting your food to you while it's still hot).

So are US fast-food places that much more expensive than restaurants to make up for the wage disparity? Or is the price due made up in the bulk buying?

And would a Diner be considered a fast-food place, even if it was a chain?


DSXMachina wrote:
MagusJanus wrote:
DSXMachina wrote:
Craig Bonham 141 wrote:

Yeah, never been a waiter but this ticks me off hugely. You tip or you eat at McDonalds (or better yet, at home).

It's like saying you don't think people should be allowed to charge for food so you just steal. You know how the system is set up, you're stealing people's work.

So you don't tip at McDonalds? How about Burger King or Wendys?
It's customary not to tip at fast food places, save for when it's a delivery (and then you're tipping them for getting your food to you while it's still hot).

So are US fast-food places that much more expensive than restaurants to make up for the wage disparity? Or is the price due made up in the bulk buying?

And would a Diner be considered a fast-food place, even if it was a chain?

Typically a fast food place doesn't serve you in the same way as a "sit-down" restaurant.

At a diner I would say yes, assuming they check back with you, refill your drink, etc.


In general what I've always been taught in the U.S. is:
- If you have to go to the counter to pick up your food, you do not tip.
- If someone brings you your food, you do tip.

So fast food, delis, cafeterias, and buffets where you're on your own you don't tip. Restaurants you do tip. But there are those wonderful 'grey area' places like all-you-can-eat buffets where the wait staff bring you beverages, take your plates away, and provide you with silverware and napkins, but you get your own food. So even there you're left wondering what to leave as a tip, if anything.

This thread is very interesting, and I suspect people will come up with a multitude of counterexamples, reinforcing my opinion that the practice should be abolished.

Honestly, if I receive exemplary service from a staff member, I either call over their manager and tell him/her, or *gasp* write a physical letter to the establishment telling them what a wonderful time I had on account of xxx.

My HOPE is that those letters do some good when raises and bonuses are discussed, but I'm jaded enough I wouldn't be surprised if I'm wasting my time.


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Why isn't it the restaurant owner's responsibility to pay their employees?

I tip, because it's accepted practice and I agree, they deserve to be paid. I just disagree that this is the best method. If you think it is the best method, I'd appreciate some actual proof that restaurant employees are better off with a tipping system instead of a wage system before you start going off on how people who disagree are morally reprehensible.


BTW, thanks for reminding me that I haven't seen Reservoir Dogs in far too long.

NSFW swearing: Mr. Pink on tipping

Sovereign Court

In the UK, tipping is usually about 5% and is much more a token off appreciation than making up someone's wage. for a bigger group or larger meal the tip will often go below 5% because, as I wrote, it's just a token.

It is expected that the business pays a living wage to its employees.


Irontruth wrote:

Why isn't it the restaurant owner's responsibility to pay their employees?

I tip, because it's accepted practice and I agree, they deserve to be paid. I just disagree that this is the best method. If you think it is the best method, I'd appreciate some actual proof that restaurant employees are better off with a tipping system instead of a wage system before you start going off on how people who disagree are morally reprehensible.

It may not be the best system but it is the system. Not tipping your server will do nothing to change that system. It's not the best idea to buy your groceries at a gas station but if you buy your groceries at a gas station you should still pay for those groceries. If you don't want to tip or think you shouldn't have to tip then do not go to places that expect you to tip.


Durngrun Stonebreaker wrote:
Irontruth wrote:

Why isn't it the restaurant owner's responsibility to pay their employees?

I tip, because it's accepted practice and I agree, they deserve to be paid. I just disagree that this is the best method. If you think it is the best method, I'd appreciate some actual proof that restaurant employees are better off with a tipping system instead of a wage system before you start going off on how people who disagree are morally reprehensible.

It may not be the best system but it is the system. Not tipping your server will do nothing to change that system. It's not the best idea to buy your groceries at a gas station but if you buy your groceries at a gas station you should still pay for those groceries. If you don't want to tip or think you shouldn't have to tip then do not go to places that expect you to tip.

Just because it's the system we have does not mean we need to shame people who don't fall in line.

At the gas station, I give my money to the business. It's their responsibility to pay the employee.

Give me reasons why restaurants SHOULD operate the way they do, don't just repeat the line "but that's how it is". Tell me why it should be that way.

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Buri wrote:
It's not my job to pay them. It's their employer's. If they're unhappy about the nature of their employment, then they need to speak to their boss. The people who picketed McDonalds for an increase in pay did a great thing. However, I don't see people picketing regular restaurants. Why? Because as is, on average, servers make pretty good money indicating things aren't that bad in spite of us evil people. Why haven't a collection of servers gotten together to run a business that pays a consistent wage? At least some of them have good credit so it'd be very possible. They don't because they'd actually be making less money. For the people that tip, that's awesome. It's their money and they can do with it what they like. Fact is, I'm not eating at a restaurant to support your or anyone's lifestyle. I'm there to patronize the business and have a place to eat. Restaurants seem to be the only place where there is a dual expectation of cost, one mandatory and the other "voluntary" and highly subjective. Sure, it'd be a great scam if everyone bought into it. I don't and neither do many others.

Do you understand that the waiter IS being taxed on the tip you don't pay? That what you're saying to all who wait on you is... "Pay for the privilege of serving my stingy ass?" You don't want to tip? then eat at McDonalds, Subways, or buy a TV dinner. Don't make an underpaid server subsidize YOUR lifestyle.


You're not taxed on tips you don't earn. If an employer is reporting your tips inaccurately, you should use a Form 3949-A, it's used to alert the IRS that your employer is reporting false information.

There's a thing called allocated tips, which is where an employer estimates what you should have earned from tips. If you keep accurate records and it's less than that, you are entitled to claim the accurate amount and not pay on the allocated amount.

Sovereign Court

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NobodysHome wrote:
Honestly, if I receive exemplary service from a staff member, I either call over their manager and tell him/her, or *gasp* write a physical letter to the establishment telling them what a wonderful time I had on account of xxx.

Orly?


Caineach wrote:
Growing up in NY, I have always been taught 15% was standard, 20-25% for excelent service.

I'm from NJ and this is what I learned also. I also learned to tip in cash whenever I can to make it harder for the owner to steal tips.

I really like living in a county now where you don't tip, though. It makes things easier and guarantees that fewer restaurant owners are crooks.

Also there are several states where employers are not allowed to pay tipped employees less. You get minimum wage + tips., so if you are going to be an ideological douche about the whole thing at least make sure you are in one of those states.


Freehold DM wrote:
Durngrun Stonebreaker wrote:
Freehold DM wrote:
The Shining Fool wrote:
tsuruki wrote:

Im from a non-tipping country, and I almost stopped tipping when im abroad after I found out that many employers take the tipping proceeds (at least in the places I visited) with the reasoning that tips are a voluntary part of the service which the employer spent time and effort to teach the staff. In other words: "I taught you to smile and be nice, so all your tips belong to me!"

I still tip when appropriate, but I do it with a half heart worried that its going into the wrong wallet.

Just to let you know, an employer taking a tipped employee's tips and keeping them for themselves is illegal in the states. It doesn't stop it from happening, but it's rarer than it may seem, because it will get the employer in a lot of hot water.
Another reason why I keep my tip to a few bucks - something the server will appreciate and someone attempting to steal a tip might not notice.
You steal from the server so the employer doesn't have to?
note that I said the server would appreciate it. Pocket change is insulting, a dollar means I'm non descript, a few bucks is appreciated, more may make them think I'm wealthier than I am and make them a target from fellow servers as well as unscrupulous bosses. It's a fine line between appreciation and coveting for some, so I lean towards the former.

A few bucks (depending your definition of a few and the cost of the meal) can be insulting. A dollar is almost certainly insulting unless you're getting a $5 sandwich or something.

On a $20 meal, that's not "appreciate it". That's have to make up out of their own pocket to split with the rest of the staff.
Especially bad if you're in a state with a low minimum tipped wage. This isn't about appreciation or coveting, but earning a, usually pretty lousy, living.


The Shining Fool wrote:

One thing I will say, regarding knowledge or ignorance of the custom of tipping here in the States, is that I don't always know who to tip.

I know food servers get tipped. That one's easy, and I don't believe that people are ignorant of that idea.

But who else do I tip? I have heard that you are supposed to tip your mail carrier. Do I tip the concierge if all they do is tell me where the closest steakhouse is? Do I tip the concierge *at all*? Barbers I get, I was ignorant of that one until I was an adult, but only because I never paid for a haircut until I was an adult. Do you tip the trolley boy/bagger at the supermarket?

It's all bewildering.

That is the kind of thing that people are likely to be ignorant of. Tip the mail carrier? I never really thought of that. Is that really a thing? How much?


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Irontruth wrote:
Durngrun Stonebreaker wrote:
Irontruth wrote:

Why isn't it the restaurant owner's responsibility to pay their employees?

I tip, because it's accepted practice and I agree, they deserve to be paid. I just disagree that this is the best method. If you think it is the best method, I'd appreciate some actual proof that restaurant employees are better off with a tipping system instead of a wage system before you start going off on how people who disagree are morally reprehensible.

It may not be the best system but it is the system. Not tipping your server will do nothing to change that system. It's not the best idea to buy your groceries at a gas station but if you buy your groceries at a gas station you should still pay for those groceries. If you don't want to tip or think you shouldn't have to tip then do not go to places that expect you to tip.

Just because it's the system we have does not mean we need to shame people who don't fall in line.

At the gas station, I give my money to the business. It's their responsibility to pay the employee.

Give me reasons why restaurants SHOULD operate the way they do, don't just repeat the line "but that's how it is". Tell me why it should be that way.

I'm not advocating for the system or trying to shame you to fall in line. I'm saying if you eat out you should tip or if you do not want to tip you shouldn't eat out. Trying to have it both ways is a cop out. Your not tipping does nothing to change anything. You are merely forcing someone to work for free (or in some cases pay to work for you) and then trying to claim some moral high ground. If you want to change the system, then do something that might have a chance. If you don't like the system don't use it. Otherwise you are just a cheapskate.


Durngrun Stonebreaker wrote:
Irontruth wrote:
Durngrun Stonebreaker wrote:
Irontruth wrote:

Why isn't it the restaurant owner's responsibility to pay their employees?

I tip, because it's accepted practice and I agree, they deserve to be paid. I just disagree that this is the best method. If you think it is the best method, I'd appreciate some actual proof that restaurant employees are better off with a tipping system instead of a wage system before you start going off on how people who disagree are morally reprehensible.

It may not be the best system but it is the system. Not tipping your server will do nothing to change that system. It's not the best idea to buy your groceries at a gas station but if you buy your groceries at a gas station you should still pay for those groceries. If you don't want to tip or think you shouldn't have to tip then do not go to places that expect you to tip.

Just because it's the system we have does not mean we need to shame people who don't fall in line.

At the gas station, I give my money to the business. It's their responsibility to pay the employee.

Give me reasons why restaurants SHOULD operate the way they do, don't just repeat the line "but that's how it is". Tell me why it should be that way.

I'm not advocating for the system or trying to shame you to fall in line. I'm saying if you eat out you should tip or if you do not want to tip you shouldn't eat out. Trying to have it both ways is a cop out. Your not tipping does nothing to change anything. You are merely forcing someone to work for free (or in some cases pay to work for you) and then trying to claim some moral high ground. If you want to change the system, then do something that might have a chance. If you don't like the system don't use it. Otherwise you are just a cheapskate.

Irontruth did say he tipped. He just doesn't like the system.

I agree completely. It's a bad approach, but until and unless it changes, the waitstaff needs the money.


Pan wrote:
NobodysHome wrote:
Honestly, if I receive exemplary service from a staff member, I either call over their manager and tell him/her, or *gasp* write a physical letter to the establishment telling them what a wonderful time I had on account of xxx.
Orly?

OK. Darned funny. Thanks for that!


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Caineach wrote:

BTW, thanks for reminding me that I haven't seen Reservoir Dogs in far too long.

NSFW swearing: Mr. Pink on tipping

We can cancel this thread. It's all been said.

And in a much cooler fashion.

<Adds Reservoir Dogs to his Netflix queue>


"In the new Russia every man and woman could vote; there were working-class newspapers, saying new and startling things; there were the Soviets; and there were the Unions. The izvoshtchiki (cab-drivers) had a Union; they were also represented in the Petrograd Soviet. The waiters and hotel-servants were organised, and refused tips. On the walls of restaurants they put up signs which read, 'No tips taken here--' or, 'Just because a man has to make his living waiting on table is no reason to insult him by offering him a tip!'"

--John Reed, Ten Days That Shook the World

Vive le Galt!

I've got another one for Comrade Pravda, but I've got to find it. Be back in a few...


Wtf?!? I already did Reservoir Dogs this morning!


For Comrade Pravda's shut-down thread:

"So we came into the great meeting-hall, pushing through the clamorous mob at the door. In the rows of seats, under the white chandeliers, packed immovably in the aisles and on the sides, perched on every window-sill, and even the edge of the platform, the representatives of the workers and soldiers of all Russia waited in anxious silence or wild exultation the ringing of the chairman’s bell. There was no heat in the hall but the stifling heat of unwashed human bodies. A foul blue cloud of cigarette smoke rose from the mass and hung in the thick air. Occasionally some one in authority mounted the tribune and asked the comrades not to smoke; then everybody, smokers and all, took up the cry 'Don’t smoke, comrades!' and went on smoking."

--Ibid.


Durngrun Stonebreaker wrote:
Irontruth wrote:
Durngrun Stonebreaker wrote:
Irontruth wrote:

Why isn't it the restaurant owner's responsibility to pay their employees?

I tip, because it's accepted practice and I agree, they deserve to be paid. I just disagree that this is the best method. If you think it is the best method, I'd appreciate some actual proof that restaurant employees are better off with a tipping system instead of a wage system before you start going off on how people who disagree are morally reprehensible.

It may not be the best system but it is the system. Not tipping your server will do nothing to change that system. It's not the best idea to buy your groceries at a gas station but if you buy your groceries at a gas station you should still pay for those groceries. If you don't want to tip or think you shouldn't have to tip then do not go to places that expect you to tip.

Just because it's the system we have does not mean we need to shame people who don't fall in line.

At the gas station, I give my money to the business. It's their responsibility to pay the employee.

Give me reasons why restaurants SHOULD operate the way they do, don't just repeat the line "but that's how it is". Tell me why it should be that way.

I'm not advocating for the system or trying to shame you to fall in line. I'm saying if you eat out you should tip or if you do not want to tip you shouldn't eat out. Trying to have it both ways is a cop out. Your not tipping does nothing to change anything. You are merely forcing someone to work for free (or in some cases pay to work for you) and then trying to claim some moral high ground. If you want to change the system, then do something that might have a chance. If you don't like the system don't use it. Otherwise you are just a cheapskate.

How would they pay to work for you?

You don't pay taxes on tips you don't earn. It's the server's responsibility to maintain accurate records on tips earned.

It is illegal for an employer to force you to tip out to staff that is not in a position to earn tips.

It is illegal for an employer to purposely misreport your tips to the IRS.

Of course, this stuff still happens, hence why I can find news articles on 5 different law suits involving just Applebee's.


Irontruth wrote:
Durngrun Stonebreaker wrote:
Irontruth wrote:
Durngrun Stonebreaker wrote:
Irontruth wrote:

Why isn't it the restaurant owner's responsibility to pay their employees?

I tip, because it's accepted practice and I agree, they deserve to be paid. I just disagree that this is the best method. If you think it is the best method, I'd appreciate some actual proof that restaurant employees are better off with a tipping system instead of a wage system before you start going off on how people who disagree are morally reprehensible.

It may not be the best system but it is the system. Not tipping your server will do nothing to change that system. It's not the best idea to buy your groceries at a gas station but if you buy your groceries at a gas station you should still pay for those groceries. If you don't want to tip or think you shouldn't have to tip then do not go to places that expect you to tip.

Just because it's the system we have does not mean we need to shame people who don't fall in line.

At the gas station, I give my money to the business. It's their responsibility to pay the employee.

Give me reasons why restaurants SHOULD operate the way they do, don't just repeat the line "but that's how it is". Tell me why it should be that way.

I'm not advocating for the system or trying to shame you to fall in line. I'm saying if you eat out you should tip or if you do not want to tip you shouldn't eat out. Trying to have it both ways is a cop out. Your not tipping does nothing to change anything. You are merely forcing someone to work for free (or in some cases pay to work for you) and then trying to claim some moral high ground. If you want to change the system, then do something that might have a chance. If you don't like the system don't use it. Otherwise you are just a cheapskate.

How would they pay to work for you?

You don't pay taxes on tips you don't earn. It's the server's responsibility to maintain accurate records on tips earned.

It is...

Because they are most likely tipping out 2-3% of the bill to the host/bartender/food runner etc. regardless of you tipping on the check.

And to be clear, I mean you in the general sense.


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Irontruth wrote:
You don't pay taxes on tips you don't earn.

Er... have you ever worked in the service industry in the U.S.?

The I.R.S. has a wonderful way of assuming that, if the amount you report is lower than expected, you're lying and hiding income. If you can't document every penny of every tip you received for the year, they'll happily charge you a flat "minimum percent" they assume you earned. Yes, it's almost unheard of them to audit wait staff, but yes, quite literally, a really crappy server who makes almost no tips can be penalized for tips he or she doesn't earn, unless she's VERY good at organizing paperwork.

From irs.gov:
Allocation of Tips

As an employer, you must ensure that the total tip income reported to you during any pay period is, at a minimum, equal to 8% of your total receipts for that period.

It then goes on to describe how to make up the difference if reported tip income is under 8% (most of which involve assigning assumed extra income to staff for assumed underreporting) and allows for exceptions, but those exceptions are never to go under 2%.

So if you open a restaurant in the U.S. and refuse all tips, in theory the IRS will ding you for 2% of your income that you never received.


Durngrun Stonebreaker wrote:
Irontruth wrote:
Durngrun Stonebreaker wrote:
Irontruth wrote:
Durngrun Stonebreaker wrote:
Irontruth wrote:

Why isn't it the restaurant owner's responsibility to pay their employees?

I tip, because it's accepted practice and I agree, they deserve to be paid. I just disagree that this is the best method. If you think it is the best method, I'd appreciate some actual proof that restaurant employees are better off with a tipping system instead of a wage system before you start going off on how people who disagree are morally reprehensible.

It may not be the best system but it is the system. Not tipping your server will do nothing to change that system. It's not the best idea to buy your groceries at a gas station but if you buy your groceries at a gas station you should still pay for those groceries. If you don't want to tip or think you shouldn't have to tip then do not go to places that expect you to tip.

Just because it's the system we have does not mean we need to shame people who don't fall in line.

At the gas station, I give my money to the business. It's their responsibility to pay the employee.

Give me reasons why restaurants SHOULD operate the way they do, don't just repeat the line "but that's how it is". Tell me why it should be that way.

I'm not advocating for the system or trying to shame you to fall in line. I'm saying if you eat out you should tip or if you do not want to tip you shouldn't eat out. Trying to have it both ways is a cop out. Your not tipping does nothing to change anything. You are merely forcing someone to work for free (or in some cases pay to work for you) and then trying to claim some moral high ground. If you want to change the system, then do something that might have a chance. If you don't like the system don't use it. Otherwise you are just a cheapskate.

How would they pay to work for you?

You don't pay taxes on tips you don't earn. It's the server's responsibility to maintain accurate

...

It's not legal to put the employee's $2.13 into the tip pool. It's not a tip.

If you would earn less than the minimum wage, your employer has to make up the difference. It's the law.

The employer can only pay the employee less than minimum wage IF the employee makes tips that bring them to or above minimum wage. If not, they are in violation of minimum wage laws and if claiming tip credit on their taxes, committing tax fraud as well.

If tipping out causes you to drop below minimum wage, the employer has to cover the difference. Again, it's the law.

People keep saying "you're forcing them to work for you for free" or "you're making them pay you to work", back it up or stop saying it.

Edit: It does happen that if you break down their wage per table, yes, they might lose money on a table if they have a tip out method based on sales and not actual tips. That still doesn't change the fact that if employees make less than minimum wage, the employer is in violation of the law.


Fact Sheet #15: Tipped Employees Under the Fair Labor Standards Act


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Buri wrote:
Quote:
Excellent! By all means, continue! What is it that you think we'll do after we've executed all the people who don't tip?
Scream 'heil'? You'd have earned it.

Aaaaaaand scene.


DSXMachina wrote:
MagusJanus wrote:
DSXMachina wrote:
Craig Bonham 141 wrote:

Yeah, never been a waiter but this ticks me off hugely. You tip or you eat at McDonalds (or better yet, at home).

It's like saying you don't think people should be allowed to charge for food so you just steal. You know how the system is set up, you're stealing people's work.

So you don't tip at McDonalds? How about Burger King or Wendys?
It's customary not to tip at fast food places, save for when it's a delivery (and then you're tipping them for getting your food to you while it's still hot).

So are US fast-food places that much more expensive than restaurants to make up for the wage disparity? Or is the price due made up in the bulk buying?

And would a Diner be considered a fast-food place, even if it was a chain?

Generally, fast food places have lower prices. But they also have lower quality food and, generally, the only service you get is them grouping your food together so you can grab it. They're also considered jobs for the young and the elderly, who typically don't need much income.

Diners tend not to be considered fast-food places, though they can also be low-quality. With those, you tend to get an actual person who waits on you and tipping is customary.


Buri wrote:

I tend to not tip but not out of douchebaggery. I want the wait staff to be angry. I want them to complain to their boss. They deserve a guaranteed fair wage and shouldn't feel like they have to kiss ass to get one nor do I think customers should feel they have to bribe someone to not f%+@ with their food or give them poor service. This whole exchange is inherently antagonistic and is unnecessary. I'd gladly pay more for eating out if this were remedied.

When I do tip I tip well even upwards of 50-75% if you really impressed me with your service. I make good money.

Yep, and if they all complained and protested en masse, they could get a +20% pay rise along with a +21% percent rise in the prices of the services.

Everyone wins.

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