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As a side note, a service charge is part of the bill, legally. As a customer, you are obliged to pay it, or the restaurant can take whatever actions they might take on someone who tries to skip out on their bill or refuse to pay for items, etc. It is not considered a tip and so can't be used as part of the tip credit, now, that it is easily solved because it's usually paid out to servers anyways, but I did find that interesting while researching other things about the issue.
Catering companies usually pay their employees minimum wage, but they also include a service charge on the bill, which is to offset the cost of having employees.
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So, TOZ and Evil Lincoln are going to speak to the management at every eatery they visit from now on until the system has changed?
For Evil to flourish, all it takes is that good men do nothing...
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So, TOZ and Evil Lincoln are going to speak to the management at every eatery they visit from now on until the system has changed?
That would accomplish little. Better to lobby for the laws to be changed. But first you need to change the culture so that tipping is seen as needing abolished.
Anti tipping needs a PR campaign. I wonder what that superbowl commercial would look like.
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TOZ and EL actually drive around the country in the Knight Industries 2000, righting wrongs on a weekly basis. I'm sure it's on their list, but to be fair, it is a very long list.
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Anti tipping needs a PR campaign.
Hear hear, sir! So long as it is aimed at abolishing the practice and not stiffing the worker while nothing changes.
TOZ and EL actually drive around the country in the Knight Industries 2000, righting wrongs on a weekly basis.
His costume is way better than mine.
Hear hear, sir! So long as it is aimed at abolishing the practice and not stiffing the worker while nothing changes.
Indeed.
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Anti tipping needs a PR campaign.Hear hear, sir! So long as it is aimed at abolishing the practice and not stiffing the worker while nothing changes.
TOZ and EL actually drive around the country in the Knight Industries 2000, righting wrongs on a weekly basis.His costume is way better than mine.
And now I am imagining your rogues gallery would include a man who wants to replace all wages with tipping. Goes by the name Tipmeister.
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And now I am imagining your rogues gallery would include a man who wants to replace all wages with tipping. Goes by the name Tipmeister.TOZ and EL actually drive around the country in the Knight Industries 2000, righting wrongs on a weekly basis.His costume is way better than mine.
Not to be confused with Meister Tipper, who topples over sleeping cattle and then mockingly yodels at them.
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It would be weird. In that show, Evil Lincoln would be the "good cop." TOZ is definitely a loose cannon who plays by his own rules.
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The great back and forth is gone. I'm kind of sad. That was somewhat fun.
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Sorry bout joining the party late but wanted to weigh in. As someone who has worked in hospitality for the last 15 years I have pretty strong opinion on the subject.
1st a "Fun Fact" -
Most restaurants not only have servers but bus boys, bartenders, and sometimes even food runners (servers who are just bringing out the food.) These people are often "tipped out" by servers after their shift since virtually no one is going to tip a bus boy. Now while bus boys and food runners (usually) make a bit more then the server sub-minimum wage, the rest comes from the server. Most restaurants base the Minimum amount a server can "tip out" (pool tips with) on the servers Sales for the day (Not Tips but Sales)- say 1% to Busser, 1% to Food Runner and 2% to Bartender. (Again these are minimums - you want your drinks made with a priority and not take 15 minutes? Tables pre bussed and cleared like magic? That extra touch from a food runner? Those %s are probably gonna increase.) This means that the server needs to give excellent service and receive 20% tips to make the average 15% tip. But (regardless of reason)what happens when people under tip/don't tip? I have had a few shifts over the years where I got to enjoy the privilege of paying out of my own pocket to serve my guests. Let me be clear - not only did I leave my 10 hour shift without having any money, I actually had to run to an ATM so I could get cash to pay my co workers.) Before you troll at me - no I'm not a terrible server you sometimes just have days were you only get a few tables of guests and those tables are filled with... let's call them...People in need of hugs.
Another thing that seems to escape people is those who tip solely on quality of service - yes it is a TIP. However the meta (had to say that on a RP site lol) of this country is that servers are paid at a sub par rate because the TIPs will compensate - best practice? No. Reality? Yes. That said - Take a moment and answer honestly, ever had a bad day at work? Just a day where you're just not a drop of golden sunshine? Now imagine your boss coming to your desk and saying "So...yea...We're just not feeling you're giving that 100% today. So we're gonna go ahead and dock your pay, ok? Thanks." Or imagine you ARE giving 100% but the convo goes like this "Your face annoys me. No pay today." or "I firmly believe our company should compensate you in a different and better manner - to support this I'm gonna dock your wages until they fix this, ok - good talk."
Ok so yes you should tip worse if you receive poor service but unless that service is just vile it should be at least 10%. You want to "stick it" to the server? Speak to a manager - ask for the company corporate number - take the servers name and make the call - I promise that server will have reprecussions/training because of it. But don't take food out of their (or maybe their children's) mouths because they dared to wait 2 minutes before refilling that coffee cup (THE HORROR!!!)
Since I'm on my soap box - I'll just put this out there as well - Perception is reality - that means if you feel like you've been waiting an hour for that non butterflied well done steak (you monster)- nothing, not a watch, not a timelord and certainly not your server is going to convince you it has only been 15 minutes. I've seen people who get crazy go nuts mad at the server when they request say "No onions in my pasta" then after the food runner drops off plate they call the server over and rip their head off. Yes the food could have been rung in incorrectly - however, it is also possible the cook, the expo (guy who preps table's food to go out at same time), or the food runner dropped the ball. While this issue is usually mitagatesd at higher end restaurants by ensuring that all of your meal is seen by the server before it goes out - at most joints this is a "not so much". My point is that the next time you are mad due to some issue with your server - ask yourself is this something that my server can even effect? If yes it is something they can effect - look around - is the restaurant pretty busy? Maybe they are running around dealing with other (not yours, totally not yours) high maintenance tables? Yea it's not your problem - but everyone gets busy - how are you at work when it's crunch time? (see previous paragraph if the answer isn't 100% every time all the time. Also if you feel you don't need to see the previous paragraph you should stop reading and call 911 as you pants are on fire.)
Disney has a really unique system for hiring upper level management. No matter what your job title (say VP of Marketing for example)for 3 to 6 months you have to work at a service level (server, cashier, janitor) at Disney World/Land. This way you truly appreciate the job that the guy who brings your food, cleans up your messes does. I wish people had to spend 3-6 months in any service industry. I believe all the "I don't tip because I want to make the world better" or "Tipping is dumb - they want more money? Go get a REAL job." an of course the " I waited an hour to get a table when they told me it was only a 20 minute wait , you sir will pay for this..." folks might take a different world view -
;TLDR - Don't be "that guy". If you're going to go to a restaurant in a country that tipping is the norm, Tip. Gross under tipping (nickel/penny/Lord help you religious card) for sub par service makes you a mean person. Your not clever, or righteous you are a bully who is possibly taking food out of someone's child's mouth.
Good Talk all - sorry about rant : )
I'm curious as to why the "cheapskate" comments aren't directed at the establishments who don't provide a living wage for their employees.
Who says it's not? As you say, those people aren't here. And many servers do make a living wage. The industry runs from piddling to cushy.
Most commentators here seem to agree that wait-staff is being underpaid, but so far it's only Comrade Anklebiter who has advocated for unionising (of course, I wouldn't expect anything less from him - and I totally agree with going that route). I was especially taken back with Scott Betts, who's been an outspoken Democrat in the past, apparently supporting the current system.
I'm all for raising the minimum wage to livable levels. But I do not believe that the tipping system runs contrary to progressive principles at all. Employees are guaranteed the minimum wage, and depending on the establishment many make much, much more than that. Abolishing tips would be a band-aid slapped over the sucking chest wound that is the American minimum wage.
If people don't mind paying the extra 15-20% then a similar increase in the listed food price should be acceptable - provided the establishment also paid a living wage as a minimum, of course.
Or do people actually like the ability to "lord over" their wait-staff by possibly punishing them for not living up to their personal standards? Looking at it that way, who are the ones with questionable ethics then?
I'm much, much more likely to reward stellar service than I am to punish poor service. I never tip below 15%, ever.
It has also been mentioned that wait-staff doesn't have much bargaining power. That's certainly true at the moment, especially with at least one political party trying to squash unions in every way they can. But you know who has a huge bargaining power? You, the customer. Don't frequent the places who do not pay their employees a fair wage. If you really want the best for the service industry workers, then that should be an easy step to take, right?
I'm afraid I'm not so principled (nor fortunate) that I am in the habit of scrutinizing all businesses for how well they treat their employees and taking my business elsewhere when they fail to meet my standards. The only place I try to avoid is Walmart, but if I'm being honest that has more to do with the social stigma of Walmart than with how well they treat their employees.
Also, have you ever had your tip stolen by a coworker?
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In fact, by the time anyone knows otherwise, you're already leaving.Why not pull me back in? I've revisited places many times. I've never gotten a note from management, none of the servers, no dirty looks, no attitudes, no bad food, and so on. No one except those I've been with may have remarked about it after the fact. In my experience it acts like a thing that others force upon themselves and others rather than being an industry expectation.
Because you're that one guy who doesn't tip, and a professional establishment manager/owner is more interested in having everyone's dinner experience go smoothly than in getting into a shouting match with a libertarian in the middle of his own restaurant.
While it is informal,
If it were informal, they would be paid minimum wage.
Tipping has been formalized, and hence this entire conversation.
Because you're that one guy who doesn't tip, and a professional establishment manager/owner is more interested in having everyone's dinner experience go smoothly than in getting into a shouting match with a libertarian in the middle of his own restaurant.
You think it'd be a shouting match? You don't know me as well as you may think.
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In fact, by the time anyone knows otherwise, you're already leaving.Why not pull me back in? I've revisited places many times. I've never gotten a note from management, none of the servers, no dirty looks, no attitudes, no bad food, and so on. No one except those I've been with may have remarked about it after the fact. In my experience it acts like a thing that others force upon themselves and others rather than being an industry expectation.
Here's the thing - I've worked in 8 restaurants of various type (mom and pop, corporate chain, hotel, high end) and in all of them approaching a guest about the quality or lack there of a tip is grounds for immediate termination. This includes management.
Also lack of dirty looks and unspoiled food? Really? (fun fact - also grounds for termination) Well I guess it could be:
One - that's a sign of professionalism. That's like saying if someone doesn't try and run me off the road it means they are OK with me driving in an unsafe manner and cutting them off -
Two - Maybe (gird yourself here my friend)you are just are not that memorable.
While it is informal,If it were informal, they would be paid minimum wage.
Tipping has been formalized, and hence this entire conversation.
I don't think it's accurate to say that tipping itself has been formalized. A guarantee on the wait staff's wage has been formalized, with the understanding that tipping may (and usually does) make up the difference, but tipping itself remains a non-requirement except in situations where the service charge is applied automatically (in large group situations, for instance).
No, not really. Voting with your wallet is a fairly crude tool. Unless a restaurant is notoriously abusive of the employees and the management knows of this reputation, or you're a regular who the management takes seriously for whatever reason, then you not eating there just sends the message that you don't like the restaurant's food, service, ambiance, etc. At best, voting with your wallet sends the message that you don't like that restaurant for an unspecified reason. At worst, they don't even know that you stopped at all.
This is the same reason, by the way, that things like an organized boycott of a new video game published by an unpopular company are bad ideas. Because all they see are low sales numbers, with no way to accurately determine the cause of those low sales, they are just as likely to chalk it up to the game itself not resonating, which can have unintended consequences (like sending a message to other publishers that the genre of game in question is unpopular). Boycotts work best on companies with heavily static product lines, where a sudden decrease in sales cannot be attributed to a change in product quality or product reception.
Here's the thing - I've worked in 8 restaurants of various type (mom and pop, corporate chain, hotel, high end) and in all of them approaching a guest about the quality or lack there of a tip is grounds for immediate termination. This includes management.
Also lack of dirty looks and unspoiled food? Really? (fun fact - also grounds for termination) Well I guess it could be:
One - that's a sign of professionalism. That's like saying if someone doesn't try and run me off the road it means they are OK with me driving in an unsafe manner and cutting them off -
Two - Maybe (gird yourself here my friend)you are just are not that memorable.
Re: Two - The horror. Absolute horror, I say.
So, you and no one in your establishment including upper management can advise me about the propriety, amount, or even existence of tipping at that particular place and I'm still expected to tip? No way.
In fact, by the time anyone knows otherwise, you're already leaving.Why not pull me back in? I've revisited places many times. I've never gotten a note from management, none of the servers, no dirty looks, no attitudes, no bad food, and so on. No one except those I've been with may have remarked about it after the fact. In my experience it acts like a thing that others force upon themselves and others rather than being an industry expectation.Here's the thing - I've worked in 8 restaurants of various type (mom and pop, corporate chain, hotel, high end) and in all of them approaching a guest about the quality or lack there of a tip is grounds for immediate termination. This includes management.
Also lack of dirty looks and unspoiled food? Really? (fun fact - also grounds for termination) Well I guess it could be:
One - that's a sign of professionalism. That's like saying if someone doesn't try and run me off the road it means they are OK with me driving in an unsafe manner and cutting them off -
Two - Maybe (gird yourself here my friend)you are just are not that memorable.
Not to mention, getting in an argument with someone who's already shown they don't value your service while you have other customers to wait on just isn't worth the aggravation. That Reservoir Dogs clip that keeps getting linked is funny and all, but if you've worked at a restaurant for any amount of time at all, you've learned that there a people who actually act like that, and your time is better spent providing a quality experience for those who appreciate it.
I pay my grocer the amount of my grocery bill. I've never tipped the checkout attendant. I've never tipped a gas station attendant either.
The last time I gave a 75% tip I was at an IHOP in Philadelphia. It was the day after Christmas with my wife. Our bill was like $30. I tipped the girl $25. Wait. That's like 83%. *gasp*
So, you and no one in your establishment including upper management can advise me about the propriety, amount, or even existence of tipping at that particular place and I'm still expected to tip? No way.
Do you not know how social convention for tipping works?
Or are you just being deliberately obtuse so that you can justify your miserly behavior?
Are you interested in defending the morality of the tipping system? So far, no ones really taken me up on it. They defend it because it happens to be the system we have, but no one has really presented much of an argument of why we should have the system in place at all.
I ask, because you're talking about the lack of morality of someone who doesn't want to tip. Therefore, you must see a positive morality within that system.
While it is informal, the tipping system is a currently accepted (by the majority) way in which waitstaff is reimbursed in our country. So long as that is adhered to there is nothing moral, nor immoral about that situation. You have waitstaff who are paid for their work, restraunt owners who make profit on goods sold and a public that received goods and service in exchange for their money.
The only weakness in the system is that tipping isn't "mandatory". That system allows the self-centered, selfish, rude or cheap to opt out of the currently accepted way of doing business. And in doing so the only individuals negatively impacted are the waitstaff. The rude human gets a cheaper dining experience and the management's end of the deal isn't impacted.
Now, could the waitstaff as a whole get together and have their own little revolution, demanding "fair" wages? Maybe. Maybe not. Fact is, waiting is an "unskilled" job. There will always be people ready to replace you if you make waves. Only during those rare times when unemployment is exceptionally low will waitstaff have any sort of influence. So I strongly suspect it's less a realistic chance for that happening and more a dodge spoken by those who don't tip.
If the system is adhered to, it's neutrally moral. If they received good wages without tips, again, neutrally moral. The only immorality that occurs is when someone knows the accepted rules and decides to ignore them, taking no consequences to themselves but cheating someone else of their part in the equation.
Again, just because something is an accepted rule, does not make it moral, nor does it make it immoral to go against an accepted rule. Right now your answer sums up as:
"Because that's the way it is"
If you're going to claim something is immoral, you're going to have to do better than that.
Also, the bolded portion is false. It is illegal to employ someone and for them to not make minimum wage, period. A business owner can claim a tip credit to the wages, but if the employee doesn't make enough in tips, the owner must supply the rest.
If you make $4 in tips an hour, management is legally required to pay you $3.25 an hour. If they misreport your tips, you can report them for fraud to the IRS if they refuse to report the correct value.
In lawsuits, customers are never found liable for employee wages. It's always the employer. Customers can only be held responsible for items indicated on the bill.
I'm all for raising the minimum wage to livable levels. But I do not believe that the tipping system runs contrary to progressive principles at all. Employees are guaranteed the minimum wage, and depending on the establishment many make much, much more than that. Abolishing tips would be a band-aid slapped over the sucking chest wound that is the American minimum wage.I don't really think anyone here is seriously advocating one instead of the other. They are overlapping, but separate issues.
Right, but I'm saying that you can fix the minimum wage issue, which obviates the need to "fix" the tipping system. And, let's be honest, raising the minimum wage is more feasible anyway.
Again, just because something is an accepted rule, does not make it moral,
I haven't seen anyone actually explain how tipping is immoral.
Do you not know how social convention for tipping works?
Or are you just being deliberately obtuse so that you can justify your miserly behavior?
I was not around any circle of people of my choosing that tipped regularly until well into my 20s. I can not impress upon you how much the notion of compulsory tipping grates me. Tipping when I want is fine. That's why it's a gratuity. The moment it's required it stops being a nod to something I'm genuinely thankful for and becomes a tax.
I haven't seen anyone actually explain how tipping is immoral.
Gotcha covered. ;-)
How about this:
Altruism is incompatible with freedom, with capitalism and with individual rights.
I haven't seen anyone actually explain how tipping is immoral.
You haven't been paying attention. The social "contract" goes that you pay for the service you get. The inverse of this is that if you don't pay then you get substandard service. So, it, in essence, becomes a bribe for what should be professional, prompt service. Which, receiving professional, prompt service should be the expectation in any setting where goods are traded for money regardless of any kind of bribe, or "tip," system in place.
Are you going to hit us with TAXATION IS SLAVERY and MEN WITH GUNS next?
Maybe.
*looks at your name*
WHO DO YOU WORK FOR?1?!
Right, but I'm saying that you can fix the minimum wage issue, which obviates the need to "fix" the tipping system. And, let's be honest, raising the minimum wage is more feasible anyway.I'm all for raising the minimum wage to livable levels. But I do not believe that the tipping system runs contrary to progressive principles at all. Employees are guaranteed the minimum wage, and depending on the establishment many make much, much more than that. Abolishing tips would be a band-aid slapped over the sucking chest wound that is the American minimum wage.I don't really think anyone here is seriously advocating one instead of the other. They are overlapping, but separate issues.
Except that how the minimum wage applies to tipped employees hasn't really changed much. It still adds layers that are more open to abuse and misuse, and require additional effort on the part of the employee to protect themselves.
In addition, abuse on the small scale is difficult to manage/oppose. Most of the lawsuits are filed against large corporate restaurants, where enough claimants can combine their cases to make it efficient to fight the employer in court. In the case of a mom and pop restaurant, an individual server who has been cheated of their wages will not likely see a large return on taking their employer to court.
So, you and no one in your establishment including upper management can advise me about the propriety, amount, or even existence of tipping at that particular place and I'm still expected to tip? No way.
Look - nothing anyone here says is going to change your mind. You're a selfish person. That isn't a terrible thing. Really it's not. Yes our current social mores frown on behavior that isn't altruistic but really (no sarcasm here promise) from your posts - it is evident you are a selfish guy. You tip when it pleases you (83% at the IHOP because you can afford to or some such) and when it doesn't - not so much. Ok. Being selfish is by itself not a bad thing so to make clear this is not an insult.
Here's the thing. I'm not sure of your goals. For example - mine were to educate some folks in regard to both the realities of how tipping works in most restaurants and to answer you about as to why no one has ever "spoke up" to you about not tipping. You on the other hand have poked fun at those who "only" tip certain amounts all the time and to question the ethics of customary tipping with a "until I hear an explanation that gives the 'propriety, amount, or even existence of tipping' that pleases me no tips unless I feel like it.
To sum up - I think we get it. You are asking a question you KNOW no one here will answer in a manner you like. (Which I assume is kinda your goal) Well good sir - thank you for your thoughts. Who knows maybe someone out there in TV land will read your post and be inspired to not tip other people who are serving them as well. Well unless of course they feel inspired to do so. I just hope that they feel the sense of wonder and accomplishment that you convey here as well.
Suing is really inefficient unless you're getting a large return back or you can suffer the loss and you're suing to effect change. It's not for most things people want to sue for on a day to day basis. In theory, you can sue anyone for anything. I wonder if a restaurant or waiter could sue a customer for not tipping... /rubschin
Again, just because something is an accepted rule, does not make it moral,I haven't seen anyone actually explain how tipping is immoral.
Would you consider racial discrimination to be immoral?
Edit: to add, there are racial disparities in tips. Servers tend to be aware of these disparities and provide lower quality of service (which tends to influence the size of the tip) to people of color.
Since servers are aware of the differences, it's also harder to staff restaurants located in neighborhoods that are primarily black. Servers know the tips aren't going to be as good, so they look for restaurant jobs outside of the neighborhood. This also makes it harder for black restaurant owners to open restaurants in their own neighborhoods.
Part of the tipping differential can be solved with education of what the norm is, but it only solves about 30% of the gap.
Also, the differences in wages being dependent on race and differences in service dependent on race open up restaurants to lawsuits.
I'm not sure of your goals.
I posted my view. People responded. I did the same in return. And basically now I'm here for kicks and giggles and to debate on a more philosophical level.
Addendum: EVERYONE is selfish, fyi. The form and manner of their selfishness just manifests in ways with which they are socioeconomically comfortable. To assert, no matter how tangentially, that tipping somehow makes you unselfish holds no basis in reality and simply highlights why I don't bother giving this discussion the merit that others seems to interweave into the inherent morals of the topic alone. There is such haughtiness and hubris on the side of those seemingly advocating for tipping that no serious discussion can take place here. Please, don't try to juxtapose differently. If the members of the thread were to behave differently then that would change. Irontruth is about the only one acting alone those lines, as far as I can tell.