I only tip in rpgs.
As for smiling meaning disdain, yes I have encountered backwoods where it is much the same.
And walking around alone at night smiling, that can mean you are crazy and not to be f***ed with. Good to know I can brush off my home mores for Russia.
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I am seeing two main positions among the handful of people opposed to tipping, in this thread. The first is that tipping is a form of "hand-out" and that tipped servers don't deserve or haven't earned those tips. Obviously false. The second is that tipping represents an immoral abuse of the working class. I'm not seeing much in the way of support for that idea, either; while minimum wage ought to be higher, it cannot be said that service workers would bring home more money if tipping was done away with. The latter position is less odious, however, because people who hold to it still see tipping as the right thing to do when it's an expected part of the worker's earnings.
I've been loathe to comment on this thread since the OP specifically asked me not to, but aside from position #1 (being a douche) and position #2 (hyperbole) there's really also a third reason one might be opposed to the custom of "forced" tipping: Transparency.
I don't like secret, invisible fees tacked onto my bill. I'd much rather pay $100 for a meal if I know that's the price up front, than to get a $50 meal and oh, yeah, the bill is $75.
In fact, this has been my experience every time I've been in the US. Nothing ever costs what people say it does. I hate that.
I realize this is a cultural thing, and it doesn't hurt my brain to go "I guess while in NY I should just add 20% to everything", but when you're unfamiliar with the concept, it still feels pretty uncomfortable.
I am seeing two main positions among the handful of people opposed to tipping, in this thread. The first is that tipping is a form of "hand-out" and that tipped servers don't deserve or haven't earned those tips. Obviously false. The second is that tipping represents an immoral abuse of the working class. I'm not seeing much in the way of support for that idea, either; while minimum wage ought to be higher, it cannot be said that service workers would bring home more money if tipping was done away with. The latter position is less odious, however, because people who hold to it still see tipping as the right thing to do when it's an expected part of the worker's earnings.I've been loathe to comment on this thread since the OP specifically asked me not to, but aside from position #1 (being a douche) and position #2 (hyperbole) there's really also a third reason one might be opposed to the custom of "forced" tipping: Transparency.
I don't like secret, invisible fees tacked onto my bill. I'd much rather pay $100 for a meal if I know that's the price up front, than to get a $50 meal and oh, yeah, the bill is $75.
In fact, this has been my experience every time I've been in the US. Nothing ever costs what people say it does. I hate that.
I realize this is a cultural thing, and it doesn't hurt my brain to go "I guess while in NY I should just add 20% to everything", but when you're unfamiliar with the concept, it still feels pretty uncomfortable.
My uncle was hosting a Russian exchange student who barely spoke English. When he went shopping with them, he started getting into an argument with the cashier after she told him the total, arguing over the price. My uncle didn't notice until both were starting to get upset. It took him 5 minutes to try to explain taxes being added on after the fact, but he didn't know the word "taxes". They eventually got him to understand telling him it went to the "state".
I am seeing two main positions among the handful of people opposed to tipping, in this thread. The first is that tipping is a form of "hand-out" and that tipped servers don't deserve or haven't earned those tips. Obviously false. The second is that tipping represents an immoral abuse of the working class. I'm not seeing much in the way of support for that idea, either; while minimum wage ought to be higher, it cannot be said that service workers would bring home more money if tipping was done away with. The latter position is less odious, however, because people who hold to it still see tipping as the right thing to do when it's an expected part of the worker's earnings.I've been loathe to comment on this thread since the OP specifically asked me not to, but aside from position #1 (being a douche) and position #2 (hyperbole) there's really also a third reason one might be opposed to the custom of "forced" tipping: Transparency.
I don't like secret, invisible fees tacked onto my bill. I'd much rather pay $100 for a meal if I know that's the price up front, than to get a $50 meal and oh, yeah, the bill is $75.
In fact, this has been my experience every time I've been in the US. Nothing ever costs what people say it does. I hate that.
I realize this is a cultural thing, and it doesn't hurt my brain to go "I guess while in NY I should just add 20% to everything", but when you're unfamiliar with the concept, it still feels pretty uncomfortable.
Once you know the practice, however, the transparency is there. It's not like I'm ever surprised by how much I need to tip.
In many states in the U.S. the government requires that sales taxes be listed separately from the cost of the item itself. It isn't the vendor's fault. We don't have VATs (value added tax for us Americans), we have sales taxes, which changes things a bit too.
In many states in the U.S. the government requires that sales taxes be listed separately from the cost of the item itself. It isn't the vendor's fault. We don't have VATs (value added tax for us Americans), we have sales taxes, which changes things a bit too.
True Story
Movie theaters include the tax in the price of the ticket. Once, when going to the movies with my family, we went to a theater that broke down the price of the ticket to show the included tax. The cost was the same as any other theater at the time but my aunt refused to buy a ticket. In her mind, even though the price was the same, she didn't want to pay the tax because she had never paid it before. We could not get her to accept the fact that she had always paid the tax but most theaters didn't list it in the price.
Theaters are (or were when I worked for one in the early 90's) a weird business. They were considered a "seasonal" business, which comes with all sorts of strange exceptions to things like labor laws. I never got paid overtime the year that the second Michael Keaton Batman came out because of that despite working 50-60 hours per week.
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Well, I'm loathe to post again after having my post deleted by Chris, but I'll say this:
In my personal opinion, there is a HUGE moral difference between someone who says, "I did not understand the tipping system in the U.S., so I did not leave a tip," and someone who says, "I understand that tipping is so ingrained into U.S. culture that labor laws allow tipped employees to earn less than minimum wage, and tax laws assume an average 8% tip rate whether or not tips are received, but because the amount of the tip is not added to my bill I will not pay it."
Yes, employees at high-end restaurants that accept tipping make an excellent salary, sometimes in excess of $50/hour. Yes, tipping is an archaic practice that should be abolished. Yes, the amount of the tip is so insane that even native U.S. citizens don't understand it. (Bellhops? Valets? Barbers? Concierges? Bartenders? The only clear-cut one is waiters/waitresses.)
But acknowledging that it's part of both labor laws and tax laws and then refusing to participate in the scam simply punishes workers for their career choice.
And considering how often I eat out and how well most servers treat me, I'd prefer people continue to consider being a waiter/waitress a viable job choice.
I am seeing two main positions among the handful of people opposed to tipping, in this thread. The first is that tipping is a form of "hand-out" and that tipped servers don't deserve or haven't earned those tips. Obviously false. The second is that tipping represents an immoral abuse of the working class. I'm not seeing much in the way of support for that idea, either; while minimum wage ought to be higher, it cannot be said that service workers would bring home more money if tipping was done away with. The latter position is less odious, however, because people who hold to it still see tipping as the right thing to do when it's an expected part of the worker's earnings.I've been loathe to comment on this thread since the OP specifically asked me not to, but aside from position #1 (being a douche) and position #2 (hyperbole) there's really also a third reason one might be opposed to the custom of "forced" tipping: Transparency.
I don't like secret, invisible fees tacked onto my bill. I'd much rather pay $100 for a meal if I know that's the price up front, than to get a $50 meal and oh, yeah, the bill is $75.
In fact, this has been my experience every time I've been in the US. Nothing ever costs what people say it does. I hate that.
I realize this is a cultural thing, and it doesn't hurt my brain to go "I guess while in NY I should just add 20% to everything", but when you're unfamiliar with the concept, it still feels pretty uncomfortable.
Yeah, I can really agree with that. I also find it odd and uncomfortable. Where I have lived, where I have traveled, the costs have been the actual costs. They say you pay this much, and you pay it.
If I am in Malaysia and I get an ice cream sandwich, it is $1. It isn't $1 and throw an extra 20 cents on top to the advertised price. That is ridiculous in much of the world.
No secret invisible fluctuating fees not mandated by law thanks, I'm allergic.
For those that want to talk about the legal extra fees and taxes on top, make it a part of the actual advertised price. That is what Australians do with GST, which is a tax. It all gets factored in from the start and the customer only ever sees one price, the actual price they pay.
^^^^
Agreed entirely that the system SHOULD be "what you see is what you pay." I haven't seen a single person argue against that.
The entire argument has degenerated into, "Is it morally OK to skip tipping because you disagree with it even though you know it exists?"
A much deeper question, and a good reason this thread is at over 500 posts.
What other cultural things do you ignore because they are different where you come from?
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What other cultural things do you ignore because they do it different where you come from?
I think that's a bit off; I originally got drawn into this thread because the OP said (paraphrasing): "Did anyone grow up in the U.S. unaware of the custom of tipping?", and an early poster said, "Oh, I'm aware of it, I just don't do it."
Cue massive argument about the morality of said poster, including a fun 50-100 post deletion by Chris Lambert. (My first deleted post ever, by the way! But I did refer to a poster as a hypocrite, so I had it coming.)
It's interesting seeing the points of view from all over the world. And it's amazing that I've seen 100% agreement that tipping should be abolished, and that the posted price should be the price you pay. (I love living in California and being expected to pay $25 for a $19.95 meal, for example.)
The original non-tipper seems to have moved on to more interesting (or less aggravating) threads, but the thread is still kicking about a bit based on the statement, "If my bill says $21.92, why is it morally wrong of me to pay $21.92?"
Hopefully I won't have kicked this thread off anew -- but I'm sometimes annoying that way.
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Dude. Tax isn't that hard. I work off a budget, and I just imagine a buffer between the subtotal and the total when I'm shopping. Simple. It's not a "random" amount - I'd say if you're planning on visiting a place, checking out the local sales tax is something you should plan into your budget :P
As someone else has already posted, tax can't be uniformed because not all cities/states have the same fiscal needs, so listing the "actual price" {read: post-tax price} would cost a LOT of money. Every restaurant menu, every drive-thru, every piece of retail shop signage, etc in every city would have to be DIFFERENT. Let me tell you with my decade of retail experience, what you're asking is ludicrously time consuming. By setting one pre-tax price, we can save a bit of time and money (driving prices down for you, the consumer) by uniforming said signage and menus, and letting YOU do the post-tax math for yourself.
But your argument is hardly new; I get old people in my store all the time who get all bent out of shape over a dollar or two because they didn't stop and think about the tax. If you're that concerned about it, walk up and ask someone that works there what the post-tax price'll be - I'm always more than happy to do that for a customer if they ask nicely.
Punishing people in customer service for traditions enforced by our employers doesn't make a lot of sense because at the end of the day, you're not hurting the employer OR the custom: you're hurting the EMPLOYEE.
Seriously, I'm really not digging this new cultural shift of people thinking that being inconsiderate to strangers somehow makes you look "cool" or "edgy"...
My uncle was hosting a Russian exchange student who barely spoke English. When he went shopping with them, he started getting into an argument with the cashier after she told him the total, arguing over the price. My uncle didn't notice until both were starting to get upset. It took him 5 minutes to try to explain taxes being added on after the fact, but he didn't know the word "taxes". They eventually got him to understand telling him it went to the "state".
Yeah. Exactly. Taxes. Bah.
I don't argue with the cashier, I just think "well, I hope you're not ripping me off right now because I have no idea how you reached that number."
Once you know the practice, however, the transparency is there. It's not like I'm ever surprised by how much I need to tip.
It's really more the whole concept of "nothing ever costs what it says on the tin" thing that I find difficult to get accustomed to, even if I know that I need to add 20% to everything.
Personally, I'd also loathe to hold a job where my daily paycheck was determined by Math.random(). :p But maybe people who work waitstaff or other sorts of commission-based work like that sort of thing.
Either way, I think it's important to distinguish between "people who are opposed to tipping" and "people who don't tip". I find the whole tipping system weird and archaic, and unfair to the people depending on it, but that doesn't mean I don't tip when in an area where it's expected. It's not their fault they live in that system. (I also tip when it's not required, but that's more in the nature of "round up to nearest even number" that Hamas described a few pages back.")
Citizen Betts, Comrade Under the Bridge:
SHUT THE F*&+ UP!!!
Oh dear. We were too loud, and now the goblin is angry.
One way it could be tricky with the variance in tax/prices (which makes it hard) would be for multinational companies with countrywide pricing policies and advertisement. Thus if companies had to advertise their prices with tax, it'd help out the local & Mom 'n' Pop stores(?)
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Dude. Tax isn't that hard. I work off a budget, and I just imagine a buffer between the subtotal and the total when I'm shopping. Simple. It's not a "random" amount - I'd say if you're planning on visiting a place, checking out the local sales tax is something you should plan into your budget :P
As someone else has already posted, tax can't be uniformed because not all cities/states have the same fiscal needs, so listing the "actual price" {read: post-tax price} would cost a LOT of money. Every restaurant menu, every drive-thru, every piece of retail shop signage, etc in every city would have to be DIFFERENT. Let me tell you with my decade of retail experience, what you're asking is ludicrously time consuming. By setting one pre-tax price, we can save a bit of time and money (driving prices down for you, the consumer) by uniforming said signage and menus, and letting YOU do the post-tax math for yourself.
Why would it be difficult? Accounting software and point of sale technology can easily accommodate it - just put the price with tax-added on your price tags.
Before we got the GST (Goods and Services Tax - like the VAT in the UK and other places) in Australia in the 90s there was a wide range of different tax rates for different categories of goods and services, yet all retailers managed to display the tax inclusive price on price tags. Now when you buy something the sales docket shows the total price as well as a breakdown of the pre-tax price and the total amount of GST included.