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I'd also rather we got more situational clothing for them, along the lines of Arctic Action Kyra in People of the North.Did you see my cold weather gear, too?
/shamelessly shows off
I still want a print of that. :D Along with a lot of other cov-
I find it slightly unsettling, Feiya, that your cold weather gear appears to be made of fox fur...and that your familiar is nowhere in sight in that image
Feiya, what the hell?! D:
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Remember, Seoni is not written as a crazed nympho - she seems to be written as an almost asexual character. However, I would say that her mythic outfit is way cooler looking than her base costume.
I think that they have a decent balance of cheesecake/beefcake and practicality. The only time I get furious is when every female character is drawn for the male gaze, such as the cover for Elder Scrolls I: Arena.
A little bit here and there is not a problem because some people are proud of their bodies and should be, and they shouldn't be shamed for wanting to display it.
To me, slutshaming is just as bad as prudeshaming.
That really sums up the issue for me.
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Feiya, what the hell?! D:I find it slightly unsettling, Feiya, that your cold weather gear appears to be made of fox fur...and that your familiar is nowhere in sight in that image
It's not. I swear. Daji is fine.
>.>
<.<
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Oh Mythic Seltyiel....
*cough*
I'd also rather we got more situational clothing for them, along the lines of Arctic Action Kyra in People of the North. As well as continuing to aim for a reasonable range between sensible and fanservice, which I really believe Paizo has been hitting pretty well. They don't go exploitative(or to Exalted's Panty Sorceress levels of what) nor do they go sex-negative. Of course, everyone has different limits on what is this and what is that.
edit-just no high-heels in combat situations plz, I mean damn
Jade Regent's third book, The Hungry Storm, has some nice Arctic outfits for Seelah and Seltyiel pictured in its gazetteer of the Crown of the World. Seelah's in particular is quite nice (furry, comfortable-looking, rather modest, all that jazz).
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I would be pro art that perhaps showed a few not fantastically fit females and males. It takes all kinds, one of the sneakiest quietest guys i ever had the honor of walking about with on missions in the army was constantly battling wieght issues. So i dont want to hear that you have to be fit and athletic to be adventurous.
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I've said this many times over the years, as this old, beaten horse occasionally gets dragged from its blood stained death bed.
The most consistently naked character in all of Fantasy is Conan. A male.
Where are the rage/hate demands to see HIM get dressed up like a proper gentleman? And how stupid would that be? Very.
Look, there's exploitative crap out there, and always has been. That can create a bad impression, sure. But there's room for sexy, too. And frankly, there have been plenty of times in human history when people did not wear much. Our ancestors depicted same in their art over millennia. Fantasy often reflects those past times.
And, finally, naked can be artful, too.
My advice? Don't try so hard to be insulted. It blocks your brains from actual thought.
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And for what it's worth, there are more female iconics that are modestly dressed (merisiel, kyra, lini, seelah) than there are ones that are either immodestly dressed or...possibly immodestly dressed. The title of this thread implies that all female iconics are dressed scantly, when the majority aren't.True. However, you might also note that the ones I listed are more visible.
By more visible, do you mean eye-catching, attractive, and memorable? I would agree with that, but I consider those things characteristics of both good art and good marketing. As far as quantity, I don't know that I have seen one group more than others.
I think this push to be less sexy is actually a regression. From the time when I was a kid, standards for dress for public, on TV, in magazines, on bill boards, in concerts, and in store windows has become significantly more relaxed.
Most of this increase in public sexiness is largely based on marketing a fantasy. But we want less fantasy in our fantasy art? Keeping sexiness in the art is a wise marketing strategy. Ceteris paribus, if I had the choice to buy/play/get involved in a game that looks sexy and attractive or a game that looks plain, I will choose the former every time. If I were to make this thread examining the differences between the iconics and more recently released art, I would phrase it in the terms of the newer art being too boring, safe, and PC. I can still remember the lamia pictures from monster manuals I haven't seen in a quarter of a century, but I couldn't tell you what I ate three days ago. That sounds like successful art to me.
The two groups that I see most opposed to sex appeal are those that profit from guilt and those that feel an unwanted need to compete on this metric. In either case, I find these motivations much more "impure" and "bigoted" than those of people that embrace sexuality. The double think employed by many people in this country (USA) is often astounding to me. The same people that get all uppity when a woman shows some skin, are often the same people that get all uppity when talking about countries that force women to wear Burqas.
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Back to the original topic at hand:
I took the disparity to mean that the NPC's in skulls and shackles (for example) were either part of a military/upscale civliation such as Cheliax etc. Hence the coats, finery, and tailored clothing. I always look at the adventurers as wandering vagabonds who piece-meal their outfits from the various locales they visit. Being adventurers, who spend most of their money on items, food, and drink, they'd end up buying bits of cheap clothinghere and there. And its always the older fashions that end up in the "copper bin".
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I will also have you know that you're not alone. I go walking around in Maryland here in t-shirt and shorts, and pass by people basically wearing snowcoats, hats and mittens because they can't take a balmy 40 degree Fahrenheit day (~3 C). You southerners crack me up sometimes!===Aelryinth
-3 C (40 F) would kill all the life in Bahia. But how you feel about going to work at 40 C (104 F) ?
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I just want them to play dress up with the iconics. I'd like to see, in no particular order:
Ezren in a straw hat and overalls.
Seoni in a sundress.
Harsk in formalwear.
Etc.
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Feiya, what the hell?! D:I find it slightly unsettling, Feiya, that your cold weather gear appears to be made of fox fur...and that your familiar is nowhere in sight in that image
It's not. I swear. Daji is fine.
>.>
<.<
If you have a Stone Familiar in your Handy Haversack, Feiya, I'm calling PETA, DEHTA, the ASPCA and Corsets-Anonymous.
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I just want them to play dress up with the iconics. I'd like to see, in no particular order:
Ezren in a straw hat and overalls.
Seoni in a sundress.
Harsk in formalwear.
Etc.
"Play dress up" reminded me of when Amiri, Harsk, and Seelah cosplayed for the Gamemastery Guide.
Hope they do some of that again for Mummy's Mask and Iron Gods. :D
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i just love that the attacks about this being for straight males, although predictably fast, are simply wrong. Look at Cosmo or any other womans mag. they are full of half naked women in sexual poses and half falling out of what they are wearing. Art if strong sexy women sells to women as much as the men or more. Hell you could take the covers of maxim and cosmo and switch them and very few would notice.Blame...Cosmo?
I fail to see what the dog from the Jettsons has to do with this.
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The most consistently naked character in all of Fantasy is Conan. A male.
Let's not forget John Carter, or Tarzan!
As Belkar would say, "Too much loin, not enough cloth."
:)
That said, I never cared much for Seoni's look or outfit (or Hennet's cringe-worthy belt-armor, back in 3.X, for that matter, what's up with those Sorcerers, anyway?). Most of the other iconics feel very 'Golarion,' and she feels more like a generic fantasy person, who doesn't look even a little bit Varisian or Shoanti or whatever she's supposed to be. (Not that anyone looks particularly Ulfen or Garundi or Mwangi, either, or are all visibly representative of a specific Golarion ethnicity.)
Most of the others look fine, to me. Amiri's 'hide armor' should probably be a little more armor-y and a little less sports-bra-y, and Seltyiel is also supposed to be wearing some sort of leather armor, and not decorative shoulderpads and an open shirt, but, other than that, no big.
Of them, Feiya seems to be the one with the biggest disconnect between her backstory and her appearance, being suggested to have endured some terrible abuse and neglect growing up, and yet amazingly developing into a flawless four-alarm hottie... I'd fanwank that as being daily use of prestidigitation, to hide the scars, sunken features and signs of childhood malnutrition, but, she's a witch, and doesn't have that option. :)
But for every Amiri and Seoni, there's a Sajan and a Seltyiel. For every fully clad Alain or Valeros, there's a fully clad Seelah or Kyra.
It seems pretty balanced, to me, with only Seoni seeming 'over-the-top.' And she does seem to be appearing on less covers, with her 'team arcanist' spot taken more and more by Feiya (the most used of the APG iconics, IIRC) or Ezren.
The demihumans, OTOH, might as well be nuns, for all we ever see any elf, dwarf, gnome or Halfling flesh (other than those hairy feet).
I've said this many times over the years, as this old, beaten horse occasionally gets dragged from its blood stained death bed.
The most consistently naked character in all of Fantasy is Conan. A male.
Where are the rage/hate demands to see HIM get dressed up like a proper gentleman? And how stupid would that be? Very.
Look, there's exploitative crap out there, and always has been. That can create a bad impression, sure. But there's room for sexy, too. And frankly, there have been plenty of times in human history when people did not wear much. Our ancestors depicted same in their art over millennia. Fantasy often reflects those past times.
And, finally, naked can be artful, too.
My advice? Don't try so hard to be insulted. It blocks your brains from actual thought.
I wonder what is this furor over cheesecake or nudty. Knights of the Dinner Table once had a strip with Weird Pete predicting what will happen when the PC bandwagon infiltrates Hackmaster and I can see it now.
In a nutshell don't have a problem with topless females, which is one reason I like the 1st edition Monster Manual and first edition D&D art so much, although some people here like Vivianne here may disagree. I see it rather subversive, defiant and liberating.
Nothing wrong with the human (or shall I said humanoid) body.
It is 2014. Why are we still so puritanical and still hung up over the human body? Back in the 1980s it was no big deal and instead of progessing we are backsliding.
Maybe it's an American thing.
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I think this push to be less sexy is actually a regression. From the time when I was a kid, standards for dress for public, on TV, in magazines, on bill boards, in concerts, and in store windows has become significantly more relaxed.And for what it's worth, there are more female iconics that are modestly dressed (merisiel, kyra, lini, seelah) than there are ones that are either immodestly dressed or...possibly immodestly dressed. The title of this thread implies that all female iconics are dressed scantly, when the majority aren't.True. However, you might also note that the ones I listed are more visible.
But, that is not what I was asking for.
What I was asking for...
I have no problem with scanty attire. But it should be either normal for the world setting (not Golarion any more) or situational.
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The same people that get all uppity when a woman shows some skin, are often the same people that get all uppity when talking about countries that force women to wear Burqas.
Using the term "uppity" to describe a group of people asserting their opinions about the way other people portray them implies that you think their normal place is beneath you.
Strangely, the term "uppity" seems to get applied primarily to women, children, and black people. That right there should be pretty telling.
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Feiya isn't an Ulfen. She's a Tian. Though to be fair, the guy who did the RoW artwork seems to be the only artist (aside from WAR, obviously) who's ever noticed that Feiya isn't white.
Yeah, that actually does bug me sometimes.
WAR's artwork comes in anywhere from months to even years before the backstory of the corresponding iconic gets written, so I wouldn't hold any inconsistencies against the artist =P
Feiya isn't an Ulfen. She's a Tian. Though to be fair, the guy who did the RoW artwork seems to be the only artist (aside from WAR, obviously) who's ever noticed that Feiya isn't white.
True, however, she was born in the Land of the Linnorm Kings and raised by Irrisen Hags.
WAR's artwork comes in anywhere from months to even years before the backstory of the corresponding iconic gets written, so I wouldn't hold any inconsistencies against the artist =P
True, but now that we have backgrounds, should we not "fix" the art to fit those backgrounds?
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I've said this many times over the years, as this old, beaten horse occasionally gets dragged from its blood stained death bed.
The most consistently naked character in all of Fantasy is Conan. A male.
Where are the rage/hate demands to see HIM get dressed up like a proper gentleman? And how stupid would that be? Very.
Look, there's exploitative crap out there, and always has been. That can create a bad impression, sure. But there's room for sexy, too. And frankly, there have been plenty of times in human history when people did not wear much. Our ancestors depicted same in their art over millennia. Fantasy often reflects those past times.
And, finally, naked can be artful, too.
My advice? Don't try so hard to be insulted. It blocks your brains from actual thought.
I've seen arguments like this one...yet when I physically open a book and begin looking through it, these arguments fall apart in the sense that:
- Characters such as Conan are often in empowering positions and poses
- The red versus black marble theory: in a sea of 100 black marbles, if 1 marble is red, then we remember the red marble more often...even though it was 1 in 100
These are very, very simple things. Paizo has done much better than a number of other companies and it is a big reason I purchase and promote their products over say, other options (the other reason is their community attitude). I have a full collection of their hardcovers and some softcovers, which I purchase /because/ they do the things they do, and assist in plots and Pathfinder-based activities (which promote the game itself), well, daily.
If I could suggest one thing, it would be that I'd more like to see continued (and improved emphasis, not that it is bad, but improvement is always desired and possible) on female characters in action poses and in "doing things" poses. That is key.
The importance of the pose is a difference that should not be so difficult to perceive and yet somehow, is. In this way I do not see improved wardrobes as "regressions." Wardrobe is often intrinsically tied to pose, which is tied to characterization. Does it have to be? No, but it often is, as a wardrobe reflects a character's thoughts, character, personality, and general activities. Wardrobe or "costuming" then, is a powerful visual prop or tool when it comes to artistic representation of a character's intent.
Should we illustrate a character who acts often as a wallflower, this character would be depicted in muted tones. In "plain" clothing, with few interesting lines or cuts. These techniques are what any beginning animator learns, any illustration artist, or any set director.
Cheesecake has an issue. I say this, not saying that cheesecake is bad, but because of what it IMPLIES. Historically, cheesecake has been detrimental to the very goals I listed above because women in these poses are often limited to...passive poses. Noncharacter poses.
Therefore, you have an artistic tool which has for decades been employed to suggest a limited role.
It is very, very challenging to depict cheesecake in a way that does not focus the character around a more limited role.
THAT is why it is often decried. It has everything to do with wanting heroes and villains to be depicted as a person and to have their props (the visual wardrobe) support the depiction of their role, their character, who they are...and the props which support this artistically, and are used to convey this message.
It is subtle.
Perhaps because I have both a background in art, this makes sense to me, and I can only hope I expressed it well. I likely did not.
It has little to do with the straw man arguments thrown about that say, "but you're demanding ALL cheesecake go away!" This is, in the great words of Monty Python, being very silly.
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-3 C (40 F) would kill all the life in Bahia. But how you feel about going to work at 40 C (104 F) ?
I will also have you know that you're not alone. I go walking around in Maryland here in t-shirt and shorts, and pass by people basically wearing snowcoats, hats and mittens because they can't take a balmy 40 degree Fahrenheit day (~3 C). You southerners crack me up sometimes!===Aelryinth
I wear a t-shirt, adjust the shades on the windows and thank the Good Lord for inventing air conditioning and refrigeration that dispenses ice cubes, of course!
==Aelryinth
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I wholeheartedly approve of characters dressing in a way that pleases the character. Seoni dresses the way she does because she enjoys showing off the arcane symbols of power on her skin.
If you dislike a character immediately because the way they dress is 'sexist' even if it makes sense for the character, then I don't really value your opinion.
So if their back story and personality demand a different look, yes. If it's simply there to make some people feel more comfortable, then no.
Conan being depicted as often naked is especially funny given that in the original stories he just about as often wears armor as he goes commando.
I believe The Scarlet Citadel describes him fighting as King of Aquilonia in black plate trimmed in gold. Pretty badass imagery, all told.
One of the reasons he's in plate as a King is because plate armor is expensive and the province of knights and nobles, not barbarian mercenaries. During most of his adventures, he's dressed in oiled chain or leathers, except when at sea or in very hot surroundings.
But if he couldn't be illustrated without, Boris Vallejo would never have become famous, no?
==Aelryinth
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One of the reasons he's in plate as a King is because plate armor is expensive and the province of knights and nobles, not barbarian mercenaries. During most of his adventures, he's dressed in oiled chain or leathers, except when at sea or in very hot surroundings.
But if he couldn't be illustrated without, Boris Vallejo would never have become famous, no?
==Aelryinth
I'd say Frazetta has the bigger claim to fame for illustrating Conan before Vallejo came along. :D
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I'll bow to that. Forgot he worked on most of the early stuff!
==Aelryinth
The same people that get all uppity when a woman shows some skin, are often the same people that get all uppity when talking about countries that force women to wear Burqas.Using the term "uppity" to describe a group of people asserting their opinions about the way other people portray them implies that you think their normal place is beneath you.
Strangely, the term "uppity" seems to get applied primarily to women, children, and black people. That right there should be pretty telling.
Coming from a long line of peasants, manual labourers, and fishers I tend to take accusations of being "uppity" as a complement. You bet I have ideas "above my station."
The same people that get all uppity when a woman shows some skin, are often the same people that get all uppity when talking about countries that force women to wear Burqas.Using the term "uppity" to describe a group of people asserting their opinions about the way other people portray them implies that you think their normal place is beneath you.
Strangely, the term "uppity" seems to get applied primarily to women, children, and black people. That right there should be pretty telling.
So much this.
But, that is not what I was asking for.What I was asking for...
Alahazra actually dressing like a Rahadoumi.
Amiri actually dressing like a Kellid (not too far off).
Feiya actually dressing like an Ulfen.
Seoni actually dressing like a Varisian (which can be really sexy). I have no problem with scanty attire. But it should be either normal for the world setting (not Golarion any more) or situational.
A later part of my post was more applicable to what you were looking for. I admit to having ran through several different thoughts in one post.
If I were to make this thread examining the differences between the iconics and more recently released art, I would phrase it in the terms of the newer art being too boring, safe, and PC. I can still remember the lamia pictures from monster manuals I haven't seen in a quarter of a century, but I couldn't tell you what I ate three days ago. That sounds like successful art to me.
The same people that get all uppity when a woman shows some skin, are often the same people that get all uppity when talking about countries that force women to wear Burqas.Using the term "uppity" to describe a group of people asserting their opinions about the way other people portray them implies that you think their normal place is beneath you.
Strangely, the term "uppity" seems to get applied primarily to women, children, and black people. That right there should be pretty telling.
Clearly we both use this word differently and categorize people differently as well. Please allow me to clarify.
I used the term "uppity" to refer to someone who is quick to claim moral superiority over others without an objective standard. Rather than implying the person's position is below mine, it is simply stating I find their assertion of others being below them to be unmerited.
I went back to look at the groups (with disclaimers) that I described in the paragraph you took that quote from. I can't see anything in my post to suggest any overlapping boundaries between the group I described and the groups you have listed. While some individuals from your groups may be inside the group I defined, some individuals clearly aren't, and don't think it would be fair to speak of any on either side of Venn diagram as oddities.
Also, I don't make the connection that any of the characters depicted in the artwork we are discussing portray any actual individuals, let alone those who are voicing their opinions here. To follow that line of thought, I would have to conclude that Veleros or maybe Ezren is portraying me. This wouldn't have crossed my mind prior to trying to make this point because they are clearly meant to be individual fantasy characters that just happen to share some similarities to me, and not an actual representation of myself.
However, I will admit that "uppity" was not the nicest choice of words. I didn't have a lot of time when I was typing and my post got a lot longer than I planned.
I see no direct correlation between the gender agenda and a lot of art.
Women are depicted in poses that are believed to be female of course and those can be changed, but i for my part never interpreted them as anywhere near submissive or weaker than the male poses.
Also i see no difference between Red Sonja and her chainmal bikini (which i like because Red Sonja is awesome) and Conan in his fur parts.
After all, the eye of the beholder plays a great role. If you want to find something inadequate somewhere, you will.
Fantasy is fantasy as in escapism, so please keep your realism out of it.
Also please stay away from puritanism in art, that´s the least thing we need there. Something setting adequate is surely the thing to go and Golarion is surely not antisexual or prude place.
Only thing i have to moan about is that the variation of female breasts could be a bit less silicon-like and more naturally variated. Like some small and some not so small and somewhere in between. Same is true for male muscle parts and body height actually. Medium creatures surely don´t all share the exact same size.
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True, however, she was born in the Land of the Linnorm Kings and raised by Irrisen Hags.
Which definitely endeared me to the Ulfen and Irrisen clothing styles and cultural practices. Where one is physically from matters very little. Its where one is going.
Dress for the job you want, not the one you used to have.
I think we should change the Most Important Rule to "Don't Get Uppity."
I would like to point out that they do change up the clothing more and more now, but I really don't see the core concept needing to be changed. I rather like this Seoni over the standard clothes model, but that's just me.
Ultimately the way the iconics were drawn helped shape Golarion. If it has developed beyond that now, then the iconics become more exceptional individuals than they were before.
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I went back to look at the groups (with disclaimers) that I described in the paragraph you took that quote from. I can't see anything in my post to suggest any overlapping boundaries between the group I described and the groups you have listed.
That seems like a disingenuous statement, given that it was made in the context of discussing art of women in Pathfinder and how they're dressed.
Clearly we both use this word differently and categorize people differently as well. Please allow me to clarify.
You can say you use the word differently, but that doesn't really matter. Words have history and connotation, and the fact that you may not want to invoke that history doesn't mean that it's not there when you use a word. For example, if you say that something an African-American said to you made you mad enough to lynch him, it doesn't really matter whether you just meant "strangle." The word in that context has racist overtones that don't go away just because you say they weren't intentional.
Also, I don't make the connection that any of the characters depicted in the artwork we are discussing portray any actual individuals, let alone those who are voicing their opinions here. To follow that line of thought, I would have to conclude that Veleros or maybe Ezren is portraying me. This wouldn't have crossed my mind prior to trying to make this point because they are clearly meant to be individual fantasy characters that just happen to share some similarities to me, and not an actual representation of myself.
I'm unclear what you mean here, but it's irrelevant. The point is, you're talking about the portrayal of female characters, and describing people who protest at how they're portrayed as "uppity." That has some deeply misogynistic overtones, suggesting that if women object to how women are portrayed, they're getting above themselves.
On the contrary, women have every right to opinions, and commentary, on how female characters are portrayed.
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You can say you use the word differently, but that doesn't really matter. Words have history and connotation, and the fact that you may not want to invoke that history doesn't mean that it's not there when you use a word. For example, if you say that something an African-American said to you made you mad enough to lynch him, it doesn't really matter whether you just meant "strangle." The word in that context has racist overtones that don't go away just because you say they weren't intentional.
I guess you would be really surprised how much you North Americans casually say things to that effect without knowing. This is a big world.
I'm unclear what you mean here, but it's irrelevant. The point is, you're talking about the portrayal of female characters, and describing people who protest at how they're portrayed as "uppity." That has some deeply misogynistic overtones, suggesting that if women object to how women are portrayed, they're getting above themselves.
On the contrary, women have every right to opinions, and commentary, on how female characters are...
There are many types of man and many types of woman. I heard many women using the same term to describe the same situation. Who has the right to say who is right ? Claiming automatic misogyny for that could be considered misandry.
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There are many types of man and many types of woman. I heard many women using the same term to describe the same situation. Who has the right to say who is right ? Claiming automatic misogyny for that could be considered misandry.
Saying that it's misogynist to imply that women don't have a right to opinions on the portrayal of women is misandry? That's so far down a false equivalence rabbithole that I'm not going to bother debating it, Draco.
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I don't think we've seen imrijka in any sexualized poses yet (much to Mikaze's disappointment).