The most consistently naked character in all of Fantasy is Conan. A male.Let's not forget John Carter, or Tarzan!
And He-man! Arg! I always hated that look, on guys or girls, because that much exposure is just... really stupid. Why does he where nothing when swords and laser blasts are flying everywhere?! Arg! Again!
(She-Ra, to, by the way. And her... heart... boyfriend... guy. And a few others.)In certain instances, I can see it - Tarzan gets a bit of a pass, for example - but really, He-Man should know better. And John Carter. And pretty much most anyone swinging swords at other people or having swords swung at them, if there isn't a strongly valid reason they don't currently have it (such as no access or impractical circumstances).
But on the whole, I've never been a fan of the whole Sword-and-Sorcery visual style (as portrayed in Carter and He-Man*, and Conan) anyway, as it always looked a little goofy to my eye from childhood.
I'll agree to that.I personally like Mythic Kyra far more than normal Kyra.
Anyone else agree?
Me too, actually, even though it makes less battle-sense to go without the helmet... so it's a bit frustrating to see her enter battle that way. But it's much nicer seeing her just... hanging around or performing rituals or things without it. It makes her seem more real.
I also like Seoni's mythic outfit better, though, and for the opposite reasons. Her main costume always looked... goofy... to me, even though the art was great and well done.
* Look, he's clearly a S&W-style Conan-like barbarian.
I went back to look at the groups (with disclaimers) that I described in the paragraph you took that quote from. I can't see anything in my post to suggest any overlapping boundaries between the group I described and the groups you have listed.That seems like a disingenuous statement, given that it was made in the context of discussing art of women in Pathfinder and how they're dressed.
Seriously go back and look at the paragraph you pulled my sentence from. You are making claims about the context of things, but removing a sentence from its paragraph and then using it to describe groups which are different than the groups being described in that paragraph. This sounds a lot like quote mining to me. I have said nothing to paint women, blacks, or children as you think it sounds.
Clearly we both use this word differently and categorize people differently as well. Please allow me to clarify.You can say you use the word differently, but that doesn't really matter. Words have history and connotation, and the fact that you may not want to invoke that history doesn't mean that it's not there when you use a word. For example, if you say that something an African-American said to you made you mad enough to lynch him, it doesn't really matter whether you just meant "strangle." The word in that context has racist overtones that don't go away just because you say they weren't intentional.
So you are claiming this word has a history (of which I doubt it does but would be open to being disproved) in which it meant something other than its definition, and therefor that was what I was implying? If you have some credible reference for this, I would be very interested. It would make me more mindful of it in the future. As it stands, I see your comparison as a false analogy.
Also, I don't make the connection that any of the characters depicted in the artwork we are discussing portray any actual individuals, let alone those who are voicing their opinions here. To follow that line of thought, I would have to conclude that Veleros or maybe Ezren is portraying me. This wouldn't have crossed my mind prior to trying to make this point because they are clearly meant to be individual fantasy characters that just happen to share some similarities to me, and not an actual representation of myself.I'm unclear what you mean here, but it's irrelevant. The point is, you're talking about the portrayal of female characters, and describing people who protest at how they're portrayed as "uppity." That has some deeply misogynistic overtones, suggesting that if women object to how women are portrayed, they're getting above themselves.
On the contrary, women have every right to opinions, and commentary, on how female characters are...
If you don't understand it, then please reread it or at least not jump to conclusions about what it is saying. It sounds like you haven't understood a lot of what I have been saying. I have no problem with someone saying they don't like this artwork. I also think that it should be fair game to suggest that talking down to staff and customers because they do is unmerited.
I think you are very quick to make broad strokes. When I made reference to this term, in that paragraph I said "The two groups that I see most opposed to sex appeal are those that profit from guilt and those that feel an unwanted need to compete on this metric." If I must be talking about groups beyond the definition of the word, those would be the groups you could charge me with. While I think that some posts here obviously fall in different spots along the continuum of humility and sanctimonious condemnations, I couldn't hope to place a person in one of the groups described based on a few posts. The sentence itself using the word "uppity" described the odd way that some thoughts here can sit next to some very contradictory thoughts without anyone ever noticing; the point of which seems to be completely lost on you.
Looking on your homepage, I see that gender inequality is something you devote a lot of time writing and thinking about. I am sorry to have pushed a hot button with you, but I do think you are finding sexist condemnations in my words where I have not actually expressed it. Every word you read in my posts to be demeaning to one gender, I would be willing to endorse describing individuals of the other as well.
There are many types of man and many types of woman. I heard many women using the same term to describe the same situation. Who has the right to say who is right ? Claiming automatic misogyny for that could be considered misandry.Saying that it's misogynist to imply that women don't have a right to opinions on the portrayal of women is misandry? That's so far down a false equivalence rabbithole that I'm not going to bother debating it, Draco.
And herein lies the start of this misunderstanding. You are putting words in my mouth. Of course women are entitled to opinions about whatever they want. However, I do disagree with the notion that if their opinions are condemning other people, no one should argue the contrary.
There are many types of man and many types of woman. I heard many women using the same term to describe the same situation. Who has the right to say who is right ? Claiming automatic misogyny for that could be considered misandry.Saying that it's misogynist to imply that women don't have a right to opinions on the portrayal of women is misandry? That's so far down a false equivalence rabbithole that I'm not going to bother debating it, Draco.
I believe the entire point of this aside is that Sirti was describing people who object to the revealing of flesh on women and of burqas on women to be 'uppity.' His only specific complaint against a group was about people who are inherently opposed to sexuality in general.
I think this makes Draco's rather silly point is somewhat valid. To claim misogyny would require Sirti to have displayed a disregard for the opinions of all women or at least all women who preferred to not have women displayed this way.
In this way his comment was as misandric as misogynous, he was saying anyone who automatically jumped in a specific direction on the subject held a rather silly attitude.
Or at least that's my take on it.
Edit: And that's what happens when I take fifteen minutes to be sure of what I'm saying. I get ninjaed.
Edit the Edit: And yay me for typing up a confused explanation after the fact because I didn't take the time to do a second reading.
In certain instances, I can see it - Tarzan gets a bit of a pass, for example - but really, He-Man should know better. And John Carter. And pretty much most anyone swinging swords at other people or having swords swung at them, if there isn't a strongly valid reason they don't currently have it (such as no access or impractical circumstances).
Actually it's kinda hilarious. John Carter specifically is following an established code of dress in the world he is occupying. The men of Barsoom generally don't wear any clothing other than a loin cloth and several utility belts. I might be entirely wrong, but perhaps even the loincloth was an affectation of the artist.
The world was known for nearly universally clement weather and the idea of propriety as we understand it never surfaced. It was a world where skill with a blade is what kept you alive, not armor. Ironically with his above average agility and considerable strength he was at a considerable advantage over the natives.
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I don't think we've seen imrijka in any sexualized poses yet (much to Mikaze's disappointment).
Oh, it's out there.
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Edit: And that's what happens when I take fifteen minutes to be sure of what I'm saying. I get ninjaed.
Happens to me all the time, man. All the time. :)
In certain instances, I can see it - Tarzan gets a bit of a pass, for example - but really, He-Man should know better. And John Carter. And pretty much most anyone swinging swords at other people or having swords swung at them, if there isn't a strongly valid reason they don't currently have it (such as no access or impractical circumstances).Actually it's kinda hilarious. John Carter specifically is following an established code of dress in the world he is occupying. The men of Barsoom generally don't wear any clothing other than a loin cloth and several utility belts. I might be entirely wrong, but perhaps even the loincloth was an affectation of the artist.
The world was known for nearly universally clement weather and the idea of propriety as we understand it never surfaced. It was a world where skill with a blade is what kept you alive, not armor. Ironically with his above average agility and considerable strength he was at a considerable advantage over the natives.
Oh yeah, I remember. I enjoyed the stories muchly. Still thought it was goofy. I mean, like, one cut and you're done.
I get why it was that way in the Carter stories. I just don't think it's really a good idea... at all. Never did. And after having taken fencing lessons and the full padding they make sure you have so you don't accidentally poke someone's eye out in a set of matches that are supposed to be all about lightning reflexes and body-focused touches, and translating that into an actual "no-holds-barred" kind of "I'mma do whatever it takes to kill you dead", it never really sat well with me (and sat less well with me later) that there was an entire culture all about "agility means you won't die!" because, you know, accidents happen.
But I'm okay with other weird things in my fantasy genres, so the fact that it bothered me is clearly a double standard. But that's okay - most people have them somewhere. Or I'm kinda weird... but that's okay, too, because I totally am. :)
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Looking on your homepage, I see that gender inequality is something you devote a lot of time writing and thinking about. I am sorry to have pushed a hot button with you, but I do think you are finding sexist condemnations in my words where I have not actually expressed it. Every word you read in my posts to be demeaning to one gender, I would be willing to endorse describing individuals of the other as well.
I like how if a man is an expert and well educated in a field that's he's passionate about, he's considered an expert and well educated in that field.
If a woman is an expert and well educated in a field that's she's passionate about, it's called a "hot-button issue" for her, and that she's being "uppity" about it.
How often has anyone started an argument with SKR with "Looking on your homepage, I see that gaming is something you devote a lot of time writing and thinking about. I am sorry to have pushed a hot button with you..."
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Actually it's kinda hilarious. John Carter specifically is following an established code of dress in the world he is occupying. The men of Barsoom generally don't wear any clothing other than a loin cloth and several utility belts. I might be entirely wrong, but perhaps even the loincloth was an affectation of the artist.The world was known for nearly universally clement weather and the idea of propriety as we understand it never surfaced. It was a world where skill with a blade is what kept you alive, not armor. Ironically with his above average agility and considerable strength he was at a considerable advantage over the natives.
Oh yeah, I remember. I enjoyed the stories muchly. Still thought it was goofy. I mean, like, one cut and you're done.
I get why it was that way in the Carter stories. I just don't think it's really a good idea... at all. Never did. And after having taken fencing lessons and the full padding they make sure you have so you don't accidentally poke someone's eye out in a set of matches that are supposed to be all about lightning reflexes and body-focused touches, and translating that into an actual "no-holds-barred" kind of "I'mma do whatever it takes to kill you dead", it never really sat well with me (and sat less well with me later) that there was an entire culture all about "agility means you won't die!" because, you know, accidents happen.
But...
Accidents aren't very heroic. And several of John Carter's fights were won by accident. Wasn't it in one book that he actually got into an incredibly protracted duel with essentially the greatest Barsoomian fencer (I think he was an ancient White Barsoomian... guy? It's been a while.) The entire point of the fight was John Carter desperately making sure he didn't die until the guy managed to screw up because of some scenery problem. (Been forever, either he slipped on sweat or got tangled in a drape.) And that was the only thing that saved John's life.
In the end though it is a curious and interesting bit of SciFi lore. Makes me want to go read them again. That and Glory Road by Robert Heinlein. (A gloriously misogynistic old coot if ever there was one. But in between his bouts of misogyny he managed to spin an ok tale or two.) Glory Road had hands down the best cohort ever. The guy was an undertaker by trade. So he served as the main character's personal valet, dressed him, shaved him, tied his ties, but the main character had to be utterly still and lying on his back, otherwise his cohort had no idea how to tie another man's tie.
Back to discussions of Iconics and their outfits!
Edit: Bold for editing and excitement. Sorry.
Creative Director
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Looking on your homepage, I see that gender inequality is something you devote a lot of time writing and thinking about. I am sorry to have pushed a hot button with you, but I do think you are finding sexist condemnations in my words where I have not actually expressed it. Every word you read in my posts to be demeaning to one gender, I would be willing to endorse describing individuals of the other as well.I like how if a man is an expert and well educated in a field that's he's passionate about, he's considered an expert and well educated in that field.
If a woman is an expert and well educated in a field that's she's passionate about, it's called a "hot-button issue" for her, and that she's being "uppity".
How often has anyone started an argument with SKR with "Looking on your homepage, I see that gaming is something you devote a lot of time writing and thinking about. I am sorry to have pushed a hot button with you..."
This post is my favorite thing on the internet right now. Thank you for saying this, Tirisfal.
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Artifacts & Legends, p. 6, has Seoni cosplaying as Valeros, and it's kind of awesome.
It is pretty damn awesome, and I think we should demand Valeros cosplaying as Seoni, just for the proper balance of things.
That said I have love the artwork of the iconics before Pathfinder was a real thing. Back in the “OMG Dragon magazine will not longer appear in print” stage. While Seonis artwork is great, I have to admit, that sometimes I just want give her a long fluffy shawl to keep her warm. Of course once you assume, that she uses mage armor for protection and endure elements (first level spell, 24 hours duration seems reasonable) her attire really is a matter or personal choice.
As far as the game rules are concerned a sorcerer can wear pretty much everything like a huge ball gown or nothing at all (you know going commando, like a dragon ^^).
Actually cheesecake in fantasy illustrations does bother me more than it used to, but that is pretty much based on impractical armor and high heels (in plate mail :( ), but I think that Paizo has avoided this very well.
I really have no problem with beefcake, (well this impractical armor thing bothers me there too) and I would be pretty upset if someone tried to take my mythic iconics away (especially mythic Sethyiel ).
This post is my favorite thing on the internet right now. Thank you for saying this, Tirisfal.
So, James. As Creative Director is this part of your bailiwick? Do you have an opinion on the matter or an official company line you'd like to share? ;)
(Look at me trying to be on topic again!)
Looking on your homepage, I see that gender inequality is something you devote a lot of time writing and thinking about. I am sorry to have pushed a hot button with you, but I do think you are finding sexist condemnations in my words where I have not actually expressed it. Every word you read in my posts to be demeaning to one gender, I would be willing to endorse describing individuals of the other as well.I like how if a man is an expert and well educated in a field that's he's passionate about, he's considered an expert and well educated in that field.
If a woman is an expert and well educated in a field that's she's passionate about, it's called a "hot-button issue" for her, and that she's being "uppity" about it.
How often has anyone started an argument with SKR with "Looking on your homepage, I see that gaming is something you devote a lot of time writing and thinking about. I am sorry to have pushed a hot button with you..."
Sigh. More jumping to conclusions. I don't know her level of education or what field. Perhaps I am wrong on the matter, but in all honesty I expect experts in a field to be very meticulous with the language used within the discipline. There has been a very loose use and interpretation of words flying around this topic. All I saw was that she either was going to go to or did go to law school at one time. I saw a lot of gender inequality words with links to posts talking about gender inequality issues. My web sleuthing was limited to about 10 minutes. I am getting a hard time from my wife about how much time I have spent on the computer tonight as is. EDIT: I have tried looking again, and I still can't find any credentials that should lead me to that conclusion. Talking about something a lot doesn't make one an expert in my book. This is not to say she doesn't have those credentials, but I am saying that I don't see any reason for you to think I was willfully reducing her status.
Whether someone is an expert on a subject or not, they can have hot buttons. You are the one that reduced it to a "hot button issue." Also, I have never once said she was uppity.
Additionally, I haven't disagreed with SKR on anything here but I would call him out if I thought he was wrong about something I was talking about, especially if it was a characterization of me. I have seen many others here do so repeatedly and Sean posts tend to run in rules circles, there he is more or less the final authority.
I feel like I have been fighting words in my mouth for hours now.
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I don't think we've seen imrijka in any sexualized poses yet (much to Mikaze's disappointment).Oh, it's out there.
Deviantart fanwork does not count.
Accidents aren't very heroic. And several of John Carter's fights were won by accident. Wasn't it in one book that he actually got into an incredibly protracted duel with essentially the greatest Barsoomian fencer (I think he was an ancient White Barsoomian... guy? It's been a while.) The entire point of the fight was John Carter desperately making sure he didn't die until the guy managed to screw up because of some scenery problem. (Been forever, either he slipped on sweat or got tangled in a drape.) And that was the...End of Warlord of Mars. The guy was a yellow Martian, I believe, and Carter was doing everything he could just to stay alive. His opponent was just that damn good. After many years of adventure with John never really meeting an equal... it was an eye opener for him. Given his superhuman abilities and great skill with a blade anyway, I don't think anybody else could have even come close to his opponent.
Martian medical technology was supposed to be fantastic enough that it could easily fix even otherwise-mortal wounds, so getting a bad cut wasn't the end.
Thanks for the reminder. :)
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Artifacts & Legends, p. 6, has Seoni cosplaying as Valeros, and it's kind of awesome.It is pretty damn awesome, and I think we should demand Valeros cosplaying as Seoni, just for the proper balance of things.
And now I've gone blind from that mental image. :)
As far as the game rules are concerned a sorcerer can wear pretty much everything like a huge ball gown or nothing at all (you know going commando, like a dragon ^^).
My spy/assassin/imperial agent in SW:tOR wore a fancy evening dress, because, honestly, what are all those other imperial agents thinking dressing in shiny black imperial agent uniforms that just scream 'I'm a spy!'?
I mean, the whole point of *being* a ninja, is that people aren't supposed to *know* that you are a ninja, right?
This just in, Reiko is on the cover of the Core Rulebook. Twice.
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Artifacts & Legends, p. 6, has Seoni cosplaying as Valeros, and it's kind of awesome.It is pretty damn awesome, and I think we should demand Valeros cosplaying as Seoni, just for the proper balance of things.And now I've gone blind from that mental image. :)
Personally I'm still waiting on that Seelah/Seltyiel ballroom crossdressing art.
Deviantart fanwork does not count.I don't think we've seen imrijka in any sexualized poses yet (much to Mikaze's disappointment).Oh, it's out there.
;_;
edit-IT'S NOT SEXUALIZED, IT'S ROMANTIC.
iwanttobelieve.jpg
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Looking on your homepage, I see that gender inequality is something you devote a lot of time writing and thinking about. I am sorry to have pushed a hot button with you, but I do think you are finding sexist condemnations in my words where I have not actually expressed it. Every word you read in my posts to be demeaning to one gender, I would be willing to endorse describing individuals of the other as well.I like how if a man is an expert and well educated in a field that's he's passionate about, he's considered an expert and well educated in that field.
If a woman is an expert and well educated in a field that's she's passionate about, it's called a "hot-button issue" for her, and that she's being "uppity" about it.
How often has anyone started an argument with SKR with "Looking on your homepage, I see that gaming is something you devote a lot of time writing and thinking about. I am sorry to have pushed a hot button with you..."
There's another way the tabletop gaming community is like the videogaming community. :(
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Artifacts & Legends, p. 6, has Seoni cosplaying as Valeros, and it's kind of awesome.It is pretty damn awesome, and I think we should demand Valeros cosplaying as Seoni, just for the proper balance of things.And now I've gone blind from that mental image. :)
Personally I'm still waiting on that Seelah/Seltyiel ballroom crossdressing art.
Deviantart fanwork does not count.I don't think we've seen imrijka in any sexualized poses yet (much to Mikaze's disappointment).Oh, it's out there.;_;
edit-IT'S NOT SEXUALIZED, IT'S ROMANTIC.
iwanttobelieve.jpg
IT CAN BE BOTH.
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IT CAN BE BOTH.Artifacts & Legends, p. 6, has Seoni cosplaying as Valeros, and it's kind of awesome.It is pretty damn awesome, and I think we should demand Valeros cosplaying as Seoni, just for the proper balance of things.And now I've gone blind from that mental image. :)
Personally I'm still waiting on that Seelah/Seltyiel ballroom crossdressing art.
Deviantart fanwork does not count.I don't think we've seen imrijka in any sexualized poses yet (much to Mikaze's disappointment).Oh, it's out there.;_;
edit-IT'S NOT SEXUALIZED, IT'S ROMANTIC.
iwanttobelieve.jpg
LOUD NOISES!
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LOUD NOISES!IT CAN BE BOTH.Artifacts & Legends, p. 6, has Seoni cosplaying as Valeros, and it's kind of awesome.It is pretty damn awesome, and I think we should demand Valeros cosplaying as Seoni, just for the proper balance of things.And now I've gone blind from that mental image. :)
Personally I'm still waiting on that Seelah/Seltyiel ballroom crossdressing art.
Deviantart fanwork does not count.I don't think we've seen imrijka in any sexualized poses yet (much to Mikaze's disappointment).Oh, it's out there.;_;
edit-IT'S NOT SEXUALIZED, IT'S ROMANTIC.
iwanttobelieve.jpg
ROMANTIC AND SEXUALIZED LOUD NOISES!
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And don't forget the gladiator from Jupiter that John met. It took him an hour to even touch the man with a blade. Also one of the best he ever fought, and that was later in his career. He did manage to surprise the man and thump him in fisticuffs earlier, however.
I like how in Scarred Lands they institutionalized casters in skimpy clothing, as using arcane magic actually generated heat, and unless a sorc or wiz wanted to roast in their own clothes, they generally tore away excess attire when casting so the heat would dissipate quickly.
==Aelryinth
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ROMANTIC AND SEXUALIZED LOUD NOISES!LOUD NOISES!IT CAN BE BOTH.Artifacts & Legends, p. 6, has Seoni cosplaying as Valeros, and it's kind of awesome.It is pretty damn awesome, and I think we should demand Valeros cosplaying as Seoni, just for the proper balance of things.And now I've gone blind from that mental image. :)
Personally I'm still waiting on that Seelah/Seltyiel ballroom crossdressing art.
Deviantart fanwork does not count.I don't think we've seen imrijka in any sexualized poses yet (much to Mikaze's disappointment).Oh, it's out there.;_;
edit-IT'S NOT SEXUALIZED, IT'S ROMANTIC.
iwanttobelieve.jpg
GREEN ROMANTIC SEXUALIZED NOISES. WITH TUSKS.
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Here are some articles about an event in 2008 around the word "uppity" and its legacy in the American social meta-mind.
And I also encourage folks, if they care at all to look here and here for some background on what art scholars call the male gaze and its impact on art. (and the debates around it)
I have no agenda other than understanding the sides of the debate. Enjoy, or not, your call.
Edit:tweaked wording so it did not start a debate on my phrasing rather tah nsimply pointing to the ideas I am linking to.
Ish okay, Warrior Poet rerouted us back to the making of hybrids.
Paladin half-orc child of Valeros and Imrijka. He finds his father somewhat embarrassing.
But, that is not what I was asking for.What I was asking for...
Alahazra actually dressing like a Rahadoumi.
Amiri actually dressing like a Kellid (not too far off).
Feiya actually dressing like an Ulfen.
Seoni actually dressing like a Varisian (which can be really sexy). I have no problem with scanty attire. But it should be either normal for the world setting (not Golarion any more) or situational.
Anyway.
Sorry to pull back this far, but wanted to actually answer this bit.
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EDIT @The All Seeing Eye Thank you. I hadn't seen this before and I am glad I read it.
There's another way the tabletop gaming community is like the videogaming community. :(Looking on your homepage, I see that gender inequality is something you devote a lot of time writing and thinking about. I am sorry to have pushed a hot button with you, but I do think you are finding sexist condemnations in my words where I have not actually expressed it. Every word you read in my posts to be demeaning to one gender, I would be willing to endorse describing individuals of the other as well.I like how if a man is an expert and well educated in a field that's he's passionate about, he's considered an expert and well educated in that field.
If a woman is an expert and well educated in a field that's she's passionate about, it's called a "hot-button issue" for her, and that she's being "uppity" about it.
How often has anyone started an argument with SKR with "Looking on your homepage, I see that gaming is something you devote a lot of time writing and thinking about. I am sorry to have pushed a hot button with you..."
Apparently the political ideas on the gaming forums are like the pop news, individuals are much happier to jump on a sound byte of someone saying something they want to agree with rather than bothering with the veracity of the claim.
In the interest of simplifying my posts down to an earlier sound byte I can identify with, I will repeat part of that post.
My advice? Don't try so hard to be insulted. It blocks your brains from actual thought.
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What's wrong with Amiri? She's a barbarian. A male barbarian would probably have less clothes on.
Have you played any barbarian without armor recently?
I've said this many times over the years, as this old, beaten horse occasionally gets dragged from its blood stained death bed.
The most consistently naked character in all of Fantasy is Conan. A male.
Where are the rage/hate demands to see HIM get dressed up like a proper gentleman? And how stupid would that be? Very.
Look, there's exploitative crap out there, and always has been. That can create a bad impression, sure. But there's room for sexy, too. And frankly, there have been plenty of times in human history when people did not wear much. Our ancestors depicted same in their art over millennia. Fantasy often reflects those past times.
And, finally, naked can be artful, too.
My advice? Don't try so hard to be insulted. It blocks your brains from actual thought.
Naked can indeed be artful, but it's just that women are usually the ones being naked.
Have you seen really muscular men? They have breasts too. In fact all men have breasts. So why don’t we see men in chainmail bikinis?Off topic/
Anyway, your last line, although rude perhaps, is kind of witty :)
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What's wrong with Amiri? She's a barbarian. A male barbarian would probably have less clothes on.Have you played any barbarian without armor recently?
Yes! He's a tiefling who also has the wrecker oracle curse for "free". His stuff doesn't tend to last too long as a result.
Fun to play, too. :D
He's... kind of super screwed up, but very chaotic good, and a former crusader around the World Wound (which is where he got all the demons and qlippoths in a freak accident).
He also has the demon-possessed template... but only while he's raging... and then the demons - or qlippoths - are in control and working toward some unknown nefarious plan of theirs.
He's also wrecked about seven pairs of his own pants so far, though, to be fair, it's at least partially due to the fact that he keeps stepping in gray oozes.
(Also worth noting: the wrecker curse sucks for any sort of weapon-wielding build, I've found.)
Anyway, if you can visualize an absolutely ripped flaming red-haired (not actual flames, just cherry-red hair) tiefling with nothing but broken leather pants, a collar, and some cracked and beaten weaponry, and hands wrapped in bandages, you've got a good visualization.
And he's pretty often lacking pants this game.
Also, he's pretty awesome. Really scandalized the local scene in Ustalav. (Carrion Crown game.)
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Why do people take this subject so serious ?
Art represents that which people find beautiful, a shapely or well muscled body is very much a part of that. Most men enjoy tasteful art with a hint of sexuality, and in my experience most women do as well though arguably to a lesser extent based on what I read.
There is a lot of art I like, some isn't quite my taste but I accept that other people do enjoy different things. Some women are uppity, some men are perverts and most are just being men and women. I do trust Paizo to strike a balance, which in my opinion they have done very well so far. For my part I accept that Paizo has a wide audience and not all people are the same, a bit more censorship won't hurt me much, but I enjoy seeing the occasional lightly erotic depiction where it is appropriate or as semi-comical relieve.
If art stops invoking a reaction, maybe then everyone is happy ?
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Have you played any barbarian without armor recently?
You know who did so (successfully, I should add)? Erik Mona.
The poor oracle... Foo, that's a bloody massive headache in the form of a headpiece. Most people would manage to survive it for minutes, not even hours. And, collected deities of Golarion forbid, if she were to receive a sword blow to it, her neck would break like a dry twig...
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Saying that it's misogynist to imply that women don't have a right to opinions on the portrayal of women is misandry? That's so far down a false equivalence rabbithole that I'm not going to bother debating it, Draco.
No, but saying that man are not defending the right of other women to say that, is.
Just as an aside, the whole "Why don't people wear realistic armor?" Argument falls a tiny bit flat in a setting where by the higher levels you can be packing tons of non-armor equipment that grant AC bonuses (Bracers of Armor, Amulets of Natural Armor etc etc so-forth). So this really does come down to aesthetic preferences. And that's absolutely a fine and valid position for people to argue from, as the characters are designed primarily to draw the eye of potential customers, rather than necessarily to accurately reflect every aspect of the system.
Which is why my Naked Paladin is gonna rock da house. When Smiting, he is further armored BY HIS FORCE OF PERSONALITY.
I know, I know, I'm not helping.
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I think this makes Draco's rather silly point is somewhat valid. To claim misogyny would require Sirti to have displayed a disregard for the opinions of all women or at least all women who preferred to not have women displayed this way.
My silly point don't come from nowhere. Many women in Brazil claim that north america "feminism" is too prude and robs the right of women to be feminine. I might not be the best informed person about this dispute, but many women i've talked about the issue said that rumor is based on true info. I don't want to claim that i am right, i only wanted to register that such notion is not universally accepted and there is still discussion about it, even if it's only outside of USA.
Also i see no difference between Red Sonja and her chainmal bikini (which i like because Red Sonja is awesome) and Conan in his fur parts.
Don't you see, Conan is in a position of power.
Red Sonja is there only for as an object of the heterosexal male gaze, and hence, she is degrading herself.
(Please note the sarcasm.)
EDIT @The All Seeing Eye Thank you. I hadn't seen this before and I am glad I read it.
No problem.
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My silly point don't come from nowhere. Many women in Brazil claim that north america "feminism" is too prude and robs the right of women to be feminine. I might not be the best informed person about this dispute, but many women i've talked about the issue said that rumor is based on true info. I don't want to claim that i am right, i only wanted to register that such notion is not universally accepted and there is still discussion about it, even if it's only outside of USA.
I think this makes Draco's rather silly point is somewhat valid. To claim misogyny would require Sirti to have displayed a disregard for the opinions of all women or at least all women who preferred to not have women displayed this way.
Casting a wide net on north american "feminism" is surely as problematic as casting one on the whole of Brazil. The problem with this argument is that there are issue not only of gender or "feminism" but also sexual politics, geographical politics, racial, economic and many other issues that form very different notions of what feminism is and what it means.
Its like saying every person who has an African heritage in the U.S feels the same way about racism or every person who is hetero feels the same way about same sex relationships. All communities are dynamic and have varying opinions.
Look no further than "sex positive" culture in the U.S. to see an example of demonstrated feminism that might be at odds with its more "prudish" cousins. Examples of dissent, allegiance, overlap and divergence abound.
That said, I think for my part the issue here is some people may be offended by *insert notion here* and them being offended or having issue is not *wrong*. Folks may not agree, folks may not have had that experience, but it doesn't make people *wrong*. Feelings aren't *wrong*. Actions on feeling can be. Some notions you come to based on feeling can be.
But if anyone, regarldess of who or what they are (a red martian 5 gendered cephalopod for instance) comes into a thread to discuss imagery and impact and says "I think *that thing right there* is offensive because it makes me feel a certain way" the answer to that isn't "nope you are wrong" but it certainly could be "I don't understand why".
My 2 cp.
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Creative Director
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This post is my favorite thing on the internet right now. Thank you for saying this, Tirisfal.So, James. As Creative Director is this part of your bailiwick? Do you have an opinion on the matter or an official company line you'd like to share? ;)
(Look at me trying to be on topic again!)
As Creative Director of Paizo, I do NOT feel that the iconics need a redesign at all. I feel quite proud of them, and that we've managed to cover a wide range of styles, personalities, and appearances. Can we improve further? Absolutely. We make new iconics now and then—we've got 10 more coming later this year, in fact.
But I'm not interested in "redesigning" any of the ones we've already got.
All Seeing Eye for the win, everybody!
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As Creative Director of Paizo, I do NOT feel that the iconics need a redesign at all. I feel quite proud of them, and that we've managed to cover a wide range of styles, personalities, and appearances. Can we improve further? Absolutely. We make new iconics now and then—we've got 10 more coming later this year, in fact.
But I'm not interested in "redesigning" any of the ones we've already got.
Not that this is directly related but I would love to see a "collection" of all the various iconics in different forms of dress. They are scattered through a lot of books but I think it would be awesome to see them in alternate gear and everything...for some reason I can't escape the idea of a clothing catalog.
Valeros could do the "sweater stare" real good I bet.
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That said, I think for my part the issue here is some people may be offended by *insert notion here* and them being offended or having issue is not *wrong*. Folks may not agree, folks may not have had that experience, but it doesn't make people *wrong*. Feelings aren't *wrong*. Actions on feeling can be. Some notions you come to based on feeling can be.
But if anyone, regarldess of who or what they are (a red martian 5 gendered...
The problem is not acknowlegding other cultures, manners of thinking and diferent philosofies. To me racism is a cousin of nationalism. If this forum is open to the wide world, lets respect other people idiossincrasies too.
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This post is my favorite thing on the internet right now. Thank you for saying this, Tirisfal.So, James. As Creative Director is this part of your bailiwick? Do you have an opinion on the matter or an official company line you'd like to share? ;)
(Look at me trying to be on topic again!)
As Creative Director of Paizo, I do NOT feel that the iconics need a redesign at all. I feel quite proud of them, and that we've managed to cover a wide range of styles, personalities, and appearances. Can we improve further? Absolutely. We make new iconics now and then—we've got 10 more coming later this year, in fact.
But I'm not interested in "redesigning" any of the ones we've already got.
From a crunch perspective, some iconics could be a bit better^^
Else i totally agree, as fas as i can tell most iconics and also other characters are shown in an immersive fashion, being clothed realistic from a Golarion point of view and probably their view, what makes the most sense.