How do actually the Boar Style feats work?

[Sarimbel]

My character (human alchemist/monk) is interested in learning the Boar Style, but I've found out that I can't understand its mechanics. On the first view, a character using Boar Style feat can hit one enemy with at least two unarmed strikes to "tear flesh", dealing 2d6 bleed damage. Going through conditions, we can see next:

Quote:

Bleed: A creature that is taking bleed damage takes the listed amount of damage at the beginning of its turn. Bleeding can be stopped by a DC 15 Heal check or through the application of any spell that cures hit point damage (even if the bleed is ability damage). Some bleed effects cause ability damage or even ability drain. Bleed effects do not stack with each other unless they deal different kinds of damage. When two or more bleed effects deal the same kind of damage, take the worse effect. In this case, ability drain is worse than ability damage.

That's looking correct, but then we get to the Boar Shred feat, where we see: "While using Boar Style, whenever you tear an opponent's flesh, once per round at the start of that opponent's turn he takes 1d6 bleed damage. The bleed damage dealt while using Boar Style persist even if you later switch to a different style." But if the Boar Style's feat damage is actually bleed damage, it means that the opponent already has a stronger bleed damage on himself, and Boar Shred feat's damage is nullified, as it is weaker than initial 2d6 bleed damage. Though it could be helpful if the damage from Boar Style was usual damage, not bleed damage. Furthermore, does the last sentence of Boar Shred's feat benefit means that opponent ends bleed effect if I change or end Boar Style? I've searched faqs and erratas about this question and found nothing.

[Zwordsman]

dotting a good questions

[chaoseffect]

No one really knows because after years of confusion Paizo hasn't answered the question officially yet to my knowledge. That said, the consensus in random threads on these boards seems to be that Boar Style's "bleed" is really meant to be a "rend" instead of being ongoing damage.

[Kazumetsa Raijin]

Nobody really knows. There was never clarification for the RAW of it.

RAI, it's pretty clear though.
Boar Style - You leave a nasty gash in them, making their wound spurt blood one good time. Boar Shred - You further deepen that other nasty gash, or a different area, severing veins, causing them to actually bleed continuously.

If you look at the two Style feats, one mentions "once per round at the start of that opponent's turn he takes 1d6 bleed damage. The bleed damage dealt while using Boar Style persist even if you later switch to a different style" whereas the other mentions nothing of the sort. That's a pretty dead give-away, but it's still unclear to people.

Boar Style (Combat, Style)
Your sharp teeth and nails rip your foes open.
Prerequisites: Improved Unarmed Strike, Intimidate 3 ranks.
Benefit: You can deal bludgeoning damage or slashing damage with your unarmed strikes—changing damage type is a free action. While using this style, once per round when you hit a single foe with two or more unarmed strikes, you can tear flesh. When you do, you deal 2d6 bleed damage with the attack.
Boar Shred (Combat)
The wounds you inflict with your unarmed strikes bleed, giving you renewed vigor.
Prerequisites: Improved Unarmed Strike, Boar Ferocity, Boar Style, Intimidate 9 ranks.
Benefit: You can make an Intimidate check to demoralize an opponent as a move action. While using Boar Style, whenever you tear an opponent's flesh, once per round at the start of that opponent's turn he takes 1d6 bleed damage. The bleed damage dealt while using Boar Style persist even if you later switch to a different style.

[Cap. Darling]

I think the Wording says bleed damage. And there is no problem in finding out what bleed damage is.
There have just been a new print where they changed some stuff and the Wording on boar style wasent changed.
So i i think it i 2d6 bleed damage. I doubt it will blow the game awayfor unarmed melee guys to have 2d6 bleed ealy on.

[Sarimbel]

Kazumetsa, Cap
Sorry but I do see a conflict in Wordings. Let me explain:
RAW Boar Style feat damage: "tear flesh" 2d6 bleed => use normal bleed rules => creature takes damage at the start of it turn, do not stack with bleed with the same kind of damage.
Boar Shred feat: 1d6 bleed damage, activated by "tear flesh" (which means that creature already takes 2d6 bleed damage) => use rules for several bleed effects, and both tear flesh and boar shred deal same type of damage => counting damage, we have that 1d6<2d6 => boar shred's bleed damage is nullified. I doubt that it's normal when the feat that is a prerequisite makes its next feat weaker.

[Kazumetsa Raijin]

Sarimbel wrote:

Kazumetsa, Cap

Sorry but I do see a conflict in Wordings. Let me explain:
RAW Boar Style feat damage: "tear flesh" 2d6 bleed => use normal bleed rules => creature takes damage at the start of it turn, do not stack with bleed with the same kind of damage.
Boar Shred feat: 1d6 bleed damage, activated by "tear flesh" (which means that creature already takes 2d6 bleed damage) => use rules for several bleed effects, and both tear flesh and boar shred deal same type of damage => counting damage, we have that 1d6<2d6 => boar shred's bleed damage is nullified. I doubt that it's normal when the feat that is a prerequisite makes its next feat weaker.

Like I said, nobody knows. It's not clear enough when it comes to RAW. You can argue that they stack, you can argue that the Boar's Shred is nullified, you can argue that the 2d6 is initial "rend" damage and the 1d6 is actual bleed damage that requires healing.

3d6 seems like a lot of bleed damage. That doesn't seem logical as most bleeds stop at 1d6(I think, correct me if I'm wrong).

It's not logical that the 1d6 from Boar's Shred would be nullified by the 2d6 from Boar Style. That would defeat the purpose of Boar's Shred.

The 2d6 from Boar Style acting as a "Rend", and then the 1d6 from Boar's Shred acting as a true bleed effect; Seems the most reasonable. However;

This is why all we really have for this is RAI interpretation and GM ruling. Which is what I posted above, and likely everyone else will post below. There have been plenty of FAQs on this subject, with no FAQ actually provided. Regardless of the outcome, this isn't some groundbreaking skill or ability, but it still needs to be clear.

[Ravingdork]

I FAQ'd it, and encourage others to do so as well.

[Torbyne]

I have seen a few threads that brought up this question, kind of surprised i have never seen an answer... It does look like the RAW is it is a 3D6 bleed effect which is possibly the greatest bleed effect you will see in a campaign. But the RAI reads more like a rend followed by 1D6 bleed. Too bad the tear flesh is limited to once per round on a double hit, can you imagine a boar/snake or boar/panther using mobility and monk speed to run around dropping 3D6 bleed on everyone on the opening round? More blood than Quentin Tarantino would know what to do with.

[Pink Dragon]

Sarimbel wrote:

Kazumetsa, Cap

Sorry but I do see a conflict in Wordings. Let me explain:
RAW Boar Style feat damage: "tear flesh" 2d6 bleed => use normal bleed rules => creature takes damage at the start of it turn, do not stack with bleed with the same kind of damage.
Boar Shred feat: 1d6 bleed damage, activated by "tear flesh" (which means that creature already takes 2d6 bleed damage) => use rules for several bleed effects, and both tear flesh and boar shred deal same type of damage => counting damage, we have that 1d6<2d6 => boar shred's bleed damage is nullified. I doubt that it's normal when the feat that is a prerequisite makes its next feat weaker.

Later feats in a tree are often weaker than the initial.

My view is that the boar style 2d6 is a 1 round bleed. The 1d6 from boar shred is an on-going bleed. So in any round that boar style is used to deliver 2d6 bleed, the 1d6 bleed from boar shred is inapplicable. However, the attacker doesn't always hit twice in a round and may in fact switch targets, so the on-going 1d6 bleed from boar shred affects the target of the initial boar style attack in those rounds where the 2d6 bleed aren't in effect.

[ArmouredMonk13]

Quote:

How do the Boar Style feats work?

Very carefully.

[Sarimbel]

Topping

[powerdemon]

I can't believe no one official has weighed in on this yet. I'm all for powerful characters, but this just feels wrong.

[Zwordsman]

Hum. How I saw someone doing it was this
the 2d6 thing is one instance of bleed type damage (since some things say immune to bleed). I.e. they get hit so hard an explosion of blood but doesn't keep bleeding
the next thing causes the constant bleed damage.

So they always have the 1d6 bleed over turns, and thne they were also adding 2d6 damage of bleed type once in a while that did not persist.

Hum. also boar shred says the bleed damage from boar style persists even if you later switch to a diff style.
That almost sounds like your suppose to stack for 3d6 bleed if you trigger it all right..

[GypsyMischief]

THREAD NECROMANCY, HO!

So...is this 2d6 bleed damage just added on after you roll damage for the two or more strikes? Or does this replace that damage?

[Zwordsman]

near as I can tell it's a rider effect.
I think poison in particular activates either on the bleeder's turn or the inflectors.. i forget which

so you'd hit,
rolld damage

then either they take the bleed then.

or they take it on your next turn (or their turn)

I'm not sure if they take it the first round but that makes sense to me since you just opened said wound

[Samasboy1]

Nothing official, but here are some ways you could "fix" it.

1) Boar Style was supposed to be "rend" rather than bleed. Boar Shred works as written.
2) Boar Style was supposed to be 1d6 bleed, upgraded to 2d6 by Boar Shred
3) The words "an additional" are missing from Boar Shred
4) Since you can change the type of damage you do (B or S), the bleed from Boar Style is one, and the bleed from the Boar Shred is the other, so they stack as they are different types of damage

[chaoseffect]

I really think we will never know for sure.

[Mark A. Nattress]

I would say the word "bleed" in Boar Style is either flavor text or a damage type and isn't recurring. Here is my reasoning: the wording doesn't match the wording of any ongoing bleeding effect because it mentions nothing about having an ongoing effect while every other one does.

Death Domain
Bleeding Touch (Sp): As a melee touch attack, you can cause a living creature to take 1d6 points of damage per round. This effect persists for a number of rounds equal to 1/2 your cleric level (minimum 1) or until stopped with a DC 15 Heal check or any spell or effect that heals damage.

Rogue Talent

Bleeding Attack* (Ex): A rogue with this ability can cause living opponents to bleed by hitting them with a sneak attack. This attack causes the target to take 1 additional point of damage each round for each die of the rogue's sneak attack (e.g., 4d6 equals 4 points of bleed). Bleeding creatures take that amount of damage every round at the start of each of their turns. The bleeding can be stopped by a DC 15 Heal check or the application of any effect that heals hit point damage. Bleeding damage from this ability does not stack with itself. Bleeding damage bypasses any damage reduction the creature might possess.

Boar Shred

Boar Shred (Combat)
The wounds you inflict with your unarmed strikes bleed, giving you renewed vigor.
Prerequisites: Improved Unarmed Strike, Boar Ferocity, Boar Style, Intimidate 9 ranks.
Benefit: You can make an Intimidate check to demoralize an opponent as a move action. While using Boar Style, whenever you tear an opponent's flesh, once per round at the start of that opponent's turn he takes 1d6 bleed damage. The bleed damage dealt while using Boar Style persist even if you later switch to a different style.

Boar Style

Boar Style (Combat, Style)
Your sharp teeth and nails rip your foes open.
Prerequisites: Improved Unarmed Strike, Intimidate 3 ranks.
Benefit: You can deal bludgeoning damage or slashing damage with your unarmed strikes—changing damage type is a free action. While using this style, once per round when you hit a single foe with two or more unarmed strikes, you can tear flesh. When you do, you deal 2d6 bleed damage with the attack.

Notice how the first three effects specifically write out that they have ongoing bleed effects while the third one does not. So with Boar Shred and Boar Style you are able to do an immediate, extra, one-time 2d6 bleed damage and also an ongoing 1d6 bleed damage once per round.

[Jayder22]

Just wondering, and I know this would make the Boar Shred feat pretty weak, but what if the 1d6 additional only kicks in if the character is healed of the original bleed.

For Example: You successfully hit with 2 unarmed strikes, and the target starts taking 2d6 bleed. later that round, the enemy cleric successfully heals the bleed stopping the damage from continuing. Normally, that would be the end of it, but if you have the Boar Shred feat, the wound reopens, and starts a 1d6 bleed.

I know that isn't an amazing feature, but I've seen worse feats, and that would make it all work right?

[TGMaxMaxer]

Boar Style should probably have been a rend effect, since it seems to only happen on the round with two attacks, and is missing the same text breakdown common to other bleed effects. The nice thing is that since bleed damage isn't subject to DR, even if you can't get thru DR with normal attacks, if you hit with 2 you get to do the 2d6.

[GypsyMischief]

So, the idea is that a monk with boar style could deal 1d6+1d6+2d6+Str? Seems like a rather nice class fix, being that a multitude of creatures are immune to "bleed" damage.

[Kttank]

GypsyMischief wrote:

So, the idea is that a monk with boar style could deal 1d6+1d6+2d6+Str? Seems like a rather nice class fix, being that a multitude of creatures are immune to "bleed" damage.

It would be more along the lines of 1d6+ str + 1d6 + str + 2d6. That being said, in my campaign, I'm going to treat the style like rend, so /shrugs.

[Pathfinder Design Team]

FAQed!

FAQ wrote:

Boar Style: Boar Style seems to deal 2d6 bleed damage, which by the normal rules of bleed damage would apply each round, but then Boar Shred, which requires Boar Style and a much higher level, deals 1d6 bleed damage and specifies that it happens on each round. Did Boar Style mean something else?

Yes, Boar Style means to say that it deals 2d6 additional damage once when you hit a foe twice, similar to the rend ability, and then Boar Shred actually does 1d6 ongoing bleed damage. This will be reflected in future errata.

[Michael Sayre]

So happy to see this answered. While the intent was pretty obvious, it's nice to see it clarified that this is not intended to be one of the most powerful bleed effects in the game, and by far the most potent available at the point this comes online.

[Imbicatus]

Finally. I love this as a rend effect for unarmed builds, but the bleed was a little over the top. This just leaves Belier's Bite as the most overpowered bleed effect.

As a bonus, as just 2d6 bonus damage, this now effects creatures that are immune to bleed damage.

[Jason Bulmahn]

Not sure who sent them.. but the design team thanks you!!!

Jason Bulmahn
Eater of tasty pork ribs...

[Michael Sayre]

Jason Bulmahn wrote:

Not sure who sent them.. but the design team thanks you!!!

Jason Bulmahn
Eater of tasty pork ribs...

Some traditions are too great not to maintain.

[Zwordsman]

..That is sorta crazy you only put the errata up today right? haha

[Imbicatus]

Shouldn't it have been shredded pork instead of ribs? :)

I didn't send them, but thank YOU for the errata.

[Cheapy]

A sneak peek at an e-mail Jason recently sent out:

Quote:

Fri 11/21/2014 1:30 PM
From: Jason Bulmahn
Cake Rules?
To: Mark Seifter, Logan Bonner, Stephen Radney-Macfarland
Cc: Erik Mona
________________________________________________________________

Guys, those ribs we got for errata-ing Boar Style were delicious. Does anyone know if we have any cake-related monsters or abilities with ambiguous rules? Cake Golems, Cake Style, etc?

I have this theory I'd like to test out.

Jason Bulmahn
Ponderer of Cake

[Michael Sayre]

Imbicatus wrote:

Shouldn't it have been shredded pork instead of ribs? :)

I didn't send them, but thank YOU for the errata.

There were no restaurants the sender could find close enough to Paizo HQ that served shredded pork, but trust that "Boar Shred" was pretty much the first thing they thought of.

We'll know it's time to end this tradition when their next hard-cover is a collection of food and alcohol based monsters who all have ambiguously worded mechanics. Or when they decide to errata the Giant River Bass on the same day they errata the Delicious White Wine Elemental.

[Jason Bulmahn]

Cheapy wrote:

A sneak peek at an e-mail Jason recently sent out:

Quote:

Fri 11/21/2014 1:30 PM
From: Jason Bulmahn
Cake Rules?
To: Mark Seifter, Logan Bonner, Stephen Radney-Macfarland
Cc: Erik Mona
________________________________________________________________

Guys, those ribs we got for errata-ing Boar Style were delicious. Does anyone know if we have any cake-related monsters or abilities with ambiguous rules? Cake Golems, Cake Style, etc?

I have this theory I'd like to test out.

Jason Bulmahn
Ponderer of Cake

Close.. but actually it was scotch.. scotch golem.. scotch feat.. anything?!?

Jason

[ZanThrax]

We could all start bidding on FAQ threads with the food and/or alcohol that would be mysteriously delivered to Paizo HQ upon answers being posted.

[Michael Sayre]

ZanThrax wrote:

We could all start bidding on FAQ threads with the food and/or alcohol that would be mysteriously delivered to Paizo HQ upon answers being posted.

That way lies madness. Everyone will just start wagering cases of scotch that their favorite pet peeve is the next thing to get FAQ'd.

...

Oh, wait, you mean betting on what food item a mysterious benefactor would send when that FAQ gets posted, not bribing the designers to FAQ something. Carry on....

I was picturing "Five cases of scotch shipped to Paizo HQ says they don't give the Fighter 4+ skill points..." or something along those lines the first time I read your post.

[Jessica Price]

JASON WHY ARE YOU GIVING AWAY THE PLAN

[Uninvited Ghost]

There's one thing I find unclear about the spell Fungal Infestation...

[Shane LeRose]

Even though the damage triggers once it's still call bleed damage, thus if you're immune to bleed you take nothing extra from boar style.

[Michael Sayre]

Shane LeRose wrote:

Even though the damage triggers once it's still call bleed damage, thus if you're immune to bleed you take nothing extra from boar style.

Except the FAQ says it should say "additional damage" not "bleed damage", so that's no longer true.

[Jiggy]

Ssalarn wrote:

Except the FAQ says it should say "additional damage" not "bleed damage"

The FAQ does not say this.

[Michael Sayre]

Jiggy wrote:

Ssalarn wrote:

Except the FAQ says it should say "additional damage" not "bleed damage"

The FAQ does not say this.

"Yes, Boar Style means to say that it deals 2d6 additional damage once when you hit a foe twice, similar to the rend ability, and then Boar Shred actually does 1d6 ongoing bleed damage."

Pretty sure it does.

[Pink Dragon]

Thank you to the design team. This FAQ aligns with sensibility.

[TGMaxMaxer]

How about just changing it to a Rend ability so that you can keep it in line with several other feat trees that function with it?

[Yure]

I'd still say it works like rend but does bleed damage as in it can still go through DR. I think that was the intent on the first feat itself. Kind of like an internal bleed the stops quickly. It doesn't affect the continuous bleed damage because they both happen in different turns.