
ertw |
I'm not looking for more power, just different. I guess what I meant to say is that spellkill seems out of place in the current ghastly claw order because of the overlap of "magical combat beguiler" from the new baleful shadow. I really feel like the ghastly claw would benefit from a more melee/martial option than spellkill. It would definitely contribute to giving them a more unique story.
I guess the idea I have in my head is that the ghastly claw beguiler would use his spells for infiltration and then use his combat skills and paralyzing touch to take down his opponents while the baleful shadow beguiler is more along the lines of slinging shadow evocations for fun and profit.
Okay, now I see what you're thinking. Sorry I misunderstood what you were looking for in your first post. Give me a few days and let me brainstorm to see if I can come up with something more martial that might replace spell kill.

CuttDeep |

CuttDeep wrote:I'm not looking for more power, just different. I guess what I meant to say is that spellkill seems out of place in the current ghastly claw order because of the overlap of "magical combat beguiler" from the new baleful shadow. I really feel like the ghastly claw would benefit from a more melee/martial option than spellkill. It would definitely contribute to giving them a more unique story.CuttDeep wrote:I guess the idea I have in my head is that the ghastly claw beguiler would use his spells for infiltration and then use his combat skills and paralyzing touch to take down his opponents while the baleful shadow beguiler is more along the lines of slinging shadow evocations for fun and profit.Okay, now I see what you're thinking. Sorry I misunderstood what you were looking for in your first post. Give me a few days and let me brainstorm to see if I can come up with something more martial that might replace spell kill.
Awesome! Thank you for listening to my concerns. It's so cool that you're still fine tuning this after such a long time.

ertw |
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So here's my idea for a spell kill replacement ability:

Penumbral Shadow |

That's a very cool and flavorful ability, but it doesn't seem like much use. You're giving up two uses of paralyze (for 7-10 rounds) to blind an opponent? IMO paralyzed is a much more severe condition than blinded.
Maybe I'm just not seeing it. What's the point? Why would a beguiler want to permanently blind somebody instead of paralyzing (and having the option to CDG as a standard)?

ertw |
That's a very cool and flavorful ability, but it doesn't seem like much use. You're giving up two uses of paralyze (for 7-10 rounds) to blind an opponent? IMO paralyzed is a much more severe condition than blinded.
Maybe I'm just not seeing it. What's the point? Why would a beguiler want to permanently blind somebody instead of paralyzing (and having the option to CDG as a standard)?
The idea was to give ghastly claw beguilers a less lethal option, but I can see your point about about paralysis vs. blinding. Not sure how to resolve that, maybe reducing the cost to a single use of paralysis?

Penumbral Shadow |

Penumbral Shadow wrote:The idea was to give ghastly claw beguilers a less lethal option, but I can see your point about about paralysis vs. blinding. Not sure how to resolve that, maybe reducing the cost to a single use of paralysis?That's a very cool and flavorful ability, but it doesn't seem like much use. You're giving up two uses of paralyze (for 7-10 rounds) to blind an opponent? IMO paralyzed is a much more severe condition than blinded.
Maybe I'm just not seeing it. What's the point? Why would a beguiler want to permanently blind somebody instead of paralyzing (and having the option to CDG as a standard)?
Paralyze and flee is a pretty decent nonlethal option. It's an interesting idea, but it kind of steps on the toes of shatterglass, too. Maybe it would work better as use a paralyzing touch to make a dirty trick check against all enemies in a cone or something? At first I thought it'd be cool to allow permanent application of any of the conditions dirty trick could bestow, but that doesn't really work for most of them (ex. how is somebody going to get permanently entangled?).
Thinking about this a bit more, I think you have kind of an interesting springboard for a ghastly claw beguiler to choose a single combat maneuver to master and augment with paralyzing touch uses. Some ideas:
- Mass or ranged dirty trick as mentioned above.
- Free action paralyzing touch on a grappled foe, swift CDG while grappling a paralyzed foe.
- A bad luck boon to anybody who you trip: when they stand any AoO attack roll is rolled twice and the best is used.
- Maybe even a nonlethal CDG option: if they take more damage from the attack than they have remaining HP or fail the save they're reduced to 0 HP and are rendered unconscious but stable.

CuttDeep |

I'm torn, the visual you painted with the vitrifying sand was so incredibly visceral but I can definitely see penumbral's point. Also I think it would be very cool to give some variation to the tactics used from one ghastly claw beguiler to the next (sort of like how the baleful shadow beguiler picks a few tricks to customize his character) so choices of combat maneuvers would be great. I look forward to seeing all the options :D

ertw |
I was just thinking: is there anything in the counterfeit blood and petrified mind orders that would necessitate their inclusion in the Inner Sea Beguiler document rather than the beguiler conversion document? It just seems to me like they'd get significantly more exposure in the main document.
There's nothing really inherent in the orders that would require being in BotIS, but I was hoping to use them to add more flavour options in that document.

SylverFox |
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I guess the point I'm trying to make is that if you're not making these to sell them, you don't really need to pad anything with content. BotIS should be for stuff that is Inner Sea specific: guild descriptions, thematic PrCs (although I'm beginning to think that the hellknight might work as either an archetype or an order rather than a PrC, maybe the spymaster one too), etc. But I'd leave stuff like these two new orders and probably the tomebound archetype should go into the main conversion document where they'll get the best exposure.

ertw |
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You've given me a lot to think about, SylverFox. I'll have to look over what I have and see what I can change around. Usually I'm reticent to make big changes to the conversion document since I have to mess around with the formatting of all the following pages, but with the ghastly claw changes pending that already means I'll have to do that.
I'm curious how you see the hellknight deceiver as an archetype/order. You didn't mention the stygian skirmisher, how might you see that fitting in to the main beguiler conversion or BotIS?
As for the ghastly claw changes, I've put together a basic framework for a few different abilities, but haven't had time to flesh them out quite yet. Hopefully I'll find time for that in the next few days.

SylverFox |

I'm curious how you see the hellknight deceiver as an archetype/order. You didn't mention the stygian skirmisher, how might you see that fitting in to the main beguiler conversion or BotIS?
Probably better as an archetype, get rid of charlatan's cant for the aura/profiencies and drop higher level stuff like the last order power for the other class features of the deceiver. Basically you're swapping out the last 10 levels of beguiler for deceiver kit. As for the stygian skirmisher, while I liked the idea initially the more I think about it the less it seems like something appropriate for a beguiler. It might work better as a fighter/slayer archetype?

Penumbral Shadow |
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However, it's a bit MAD given I've been the party face and spell caster.
The student of philosophy trait is really good for party face beguilers. Another option to make it a little more SAD is to use the Cha-casting archetypes, though personally they seem like a bit of a trap to me since it's much easier for a Int-based beguiler with a load of skills to make up for not maxed out Cha in social situations than it is for a Cha-based beguiler to make up for a lack of available skill points.

ertw |
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Alright, I've been working on this for a while, but here is the updated spell kill replacement for the ghastly claw beguilers.
The beguiler also gains the ability to empower her signature combat maneuver with the supernatural energies of her paralyzing touch. At 13th level she gains the power listed below which is associated with her signature maneuver. At 17th level she can select another power from this list, but does not gain any additional benefits relating to the associated combat maneuver.
Bonded Anguish: Whenever the beguiler uses the dirty trick combat maneuver, she can expend two daily uses of her paralyzing touch ability to form a bond between her target and nearby creatures. She makes a single attack roll against the individual CMD of all creatures within a 15 foot cone and applies the penalties of the dirty trick to all creatures she succeeds against for a duration of 1d4 rounds + 1 for every two beguiler levels she possesses.
Foeshield: Whenever the beguiler successfully grapples an opponent she can use her paralyzing touch ability against him as a free action by expending two daily uses of the ability, even when he is not denied his Dexterity bonus to AC; the touch attack does not need to be rolled, however he may still negate the effect with a successful Fortitude save. The beguiler can perform a coup de grace against a paralyzed foe she is grappling as a move action with a light weapon or one-handed. Furthermore, whenever she is grappling a paralyzed foe, the beguiler can choose to use his armour bonus to AC in lieu of her own.
Pychopomp's Nudge: Whenever the beguiler attempts to use the reposition combat maneuver and her attack roll beats her opponent's CMD by 5 or more, she can expend one daily use of her paralyzing touch ability as an immediate action to magically shunt him through the astral plane to any point she can see within 30 feet of the target's original location. The destination must be on solid ground, and the teleportation cannot end in a space that is by nature hazardous to the creature teleported. The glimpse of the afterlife granted to the target renders him shaken for 1d4 rounds + 1 for every two beguiler levels she possesses.
Stumblefoot: Whenever the beguiler successfully trips an opponent, she can expend one daily use of her paralyzing touch ability as an immediate action to numb the feeling in one of his legs. He gains the entangled condition for 1d4 rounds + 1 for every two beguiler levels she possesses. Furthermore, any attack roll for an attack of opportunity provoked by standing up while he is suffering this entanglement effect must be rolled twice and the attacker must take the greater result.
Touch of Anathema: Whenever the beguiler attempts to use the disarm or steal combat maneuver and fails her attack roll by 5 or less, she can expend one daily use of her paralyzing touch ability as an immediate action to make the targeted object anathema to the targeted creature for 1d4 rounds + 1 for every two beguiler levels she possesses. The creature takes a -4 penalty on any attack rolls or skill checks he makes while using the anathema object. Furthermore, at the end of his turn the creature takes 1d4 points of nonlethal damage if the object is still in his possession.

ertw |
Very nice, glad to see you still working on this and expanding things.
ertw wrote:Oh man, that is SO COOL! I LOVE IT! I was starting to give up, but you knocked it out of the park!Alright, I've been working on this for a while, but here is the updated spell kill replacement for the ghastly claw beguilers.
** spoiler omitted **...
Glad everybody's enjoying the update :D

Penumbral Shadow |
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Alright, I've been working on this for a while, but here is the updated spell kill replacement for the ghastly claw beguilers.
I'm definitely liking malicious maneuvers better than ghastly trick. In particular I love that it allows the beguiler to get into combat maneuvers without paying the feat taxes associated with them, it lets your character open up neat little avenues of play without sacrificing too much.
Comments:
- bonded anguish: Love it. The bonding sort of hand waves away the issue of how some dirty trick effects can be applied to a number of people.
- foeshield: This is a really cool idea and brilliantly useful for a "hostage situation" kind of encounter. I like that you limited CDGs to light or one-handed weapons, though I might even be tempted to scale that back to just light weapons. If you're using this ability are there any limits on movement speed? What about restrictions on other aspects of AC (shield bonuses, dodge bonuses, armor check)?
- psychopomp's nudge: I'm really digging this idea. Basically jester's jaunt for reposition with a nice debuff on it.
- stumblefoot: Really flavorful and the entangled condition is a nice addition to my unlucky trip idea.
- touch of anathema: It's neat to see one of these that gives you a bonus for a near failure. I can't help but wonder if there might be a little need for clarification in terms of what counts as the object still being in the target's possession though. For example, if he tosses it into a bag of holding would he still take the damage?
All in all this is really cool and I can definitely tell you put a good amount of work into it. Great job, Ertw.

ertw |
I'm glad you like it!
- foeshield: This is a really cool idea and brilliantly useful for a "hostage situation" kind of encounter. I like that you limited CDGs to light or one-handed weapons, though I might even be tempted to scale that back to just light weapons. If you're using this ability are there any limits on movement speed? What about restrictions on other aspects of AC (shield bonuses, dodge bonuses, armor check)?
I think the typical grappling conditions are sufficient limitation for this ability. Move speed is halved, there's no change to other AC bonuses (except for the standard -4 penalty to Dexterity).
- touch of anathema: It's neat to see one of these that gives you a bonus for a near failure. I can't help but wonder if there might be a little need for clarification in terms of what counts as the object still being in the target's possession though. For example, if he tosses it into a bag of holding would he still take the damage?
That's a fair point about possession. I'll have to think about how to refine the wording on that; maybe reduce it to having used, continued to wield, or continued to equip the item during that turn.

ertw |
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Order of the Petrified Mind
The realm of fear is a powerful tool when wielded by the order of the petrified mind. These beguilers are masters of illusion and can create phantoms so lifelike that they can instill terror in their foes with little more than a glance. With such desirable skills, petrified mind beguilers have little difficulty finding patrons seeking out their highly specialized abilities.
Preferred Alignments: Any.
Class Skill: Intimidate.
Order Spell List: 1st- Burst of Insight (OA), 2nd- Oneiric Horror (OA), 3rd- Fear, 4th- Shadow Conjuration, 5th- Greater Oneiric Terror (OA), 6th- Banshee Blast (ACG), 7th- Greater Shadow Conjuration, 8th- Frightful Aspect (UC), 9th- Weird.
Order Powers: With great mastery over the arts of illusion, a petrified mind beguiler's ability to fill her opponents with dread makes her an incomparable weapon of intimidation.
Daunting Illusions (Su): At 1st level, a beguiler gains the ability to channel her skill with intimidation into her illusions. Whenever she uses the demoralize action, she can do so through any illusory creature created by one of her beguiler spells which function as shadow conjuration or silent image. She must declare the use of this ability before making the roll and can only use illusory creatures within medium range (100 ft. + 10 ft./level) of herself.
This Intimidate check counts as an interaction providing the target with a Will save to disbelieve the illusion; if the target succeeds on this save (or has previously succeeded on a save to disbelieve this particular illusion), the demoralize attempt automatically fails. If the illusion is incapable of creating sound, the DC of the Intimidate check is also increased by 5.
Creeping Fear (Ex): At 7th level, when a beguiler successfully demoralizes a foe who is already shaken she can choose to impose the frightened condition upon him instead of increasing the duration of the condition.
At 12th level, the beguiler can further choose to impose the panicked condition on a previously frightened for with the demoralize action.
Petrifying Aura (Su): At 13th level, a beguiler gains the ability to imbue her illusory creatures with a fearful aura. When casting a beguiler spell which functions as shadow conjuration or silent image, she can choose to expend a spell slot two levels higher than the spell's actual level to grant it a supernatural aura with a 15-foot radius. Any creature caught within this aura must succeed on a Will save (DC 10 + the spell's actual level + the beguiler's Charisma modifier) or be shaken for a number of rounds equal to 1/2 her beguiler level. Any creature that successfully makes this Will save cannot be affected again by the same illusory creature's aura. This is a mind-affecting fear effect.
Being caught in this aura counts as an interaction providing the creature with a Will save to disbelieve the illusion; if the creature succeeds on this save, he automatically makes the Will save against the aura's effects.
Paragon's Aspect (Su): At 20th level a petrifying mind beguiler's countenance takes on the illusion of her foes' greatest fears. She is surrounded by a fearful aura, affecting any individual within 30 feet. Any intelligent creature within this aura which fails on a Will save (DC 20 + the beguiler's Charisma modifier) gains the shaken condition as long as he remains within the aura and for 1 round thereafter. Creatures affected by the beguiler's aura suffer a -5 penalty on any Will save made to disbelieve her illusions, however creatures which succeed on this saving throw cannot be affected by this aura again for 1 day. She can dismiss or activate this aura as a move action.
At the beginning of the beguiler's turn she can select a single creature within her aura with the shaken or frightened condition as a swift action and impose the next most severe fear effect upon him unless he succeeds on her aura's Will save.

ertw |
That seems really powerful. Intimidation builds are already pretty good, but being able to do so at range seems a bit much.
The power of the ranged demoralize options is significantly offset by their save + check structure. It leaves the ability in the hands of two separate d20 rolls, either of which could have severe consequences on the action.

CuttDeep |

CuttDeep wrote:That seems really powerful. Intimidation builds are already pretty good, but being able to do so at range seems a bit much.The power of the ranged demoralize options is significantly offset by their save + check structure. It leaves the ability in the hands of two separate d20 rolls, either of which could have severe consequences on the action.
I hadn't thought about that. I guess the addition of the save also means that there's potential for a critical success there (while there's no crit fails on skill checks, so the Intimidate could always succeed).

ertw |
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I had a chance this weekend to work up the Whispering Initiate archetype (formerly the half BAB beguiler PrC discussed earlier). Let me know what you think.
Whispering Initiate
These beguilers operate under the sole purview of their local guild's spymistress. A whispering initiate eschews the more martial aspects of a beguiler's training and delays her progression through her order's ranks in favour of greater arcane prowess. She adds a stable of powerful abjuration and divination spells to her spell list, as well as gaining a handful of abilities befitting the best spies in the land.
Delayed Power: A whispering initiate sacrifices some of her order's training in order to develop her special array of powers. Her beguiler level is treated as if it were 2 levels lower (minimum 0) when determining all aspects of her order powers. This alters the beguiler's order powers.
Piercing Glance: A whispering initiate adds 1/2 her level to all caster level checks made to overcome spell resistance when casting spells from the divination school (minimum +1). This ability replaces trapfinding.
Weapon Proficiency: A whispering initiate is proficient with all simple weapons, as well as all forms of crossbows (including hand and repeating variants). This replaces the beguiler's weapon proficiency.
Eerie Prescience (Su): At 2nd level, a whispering initiate gains a preternatural ability to detect scrying spells which target her. When she is targeted by a spell from the scrying subschool, she is made aware that she is being scried upon even if she fails her Will saving throw by 5 or less.
At 7th level, a whispering initiate who successfully saves against the effects of a spell from the scrying subschool automatically learns the location of the caster. Furthermore she is made aware that she is being scried upon even if she fails her Will saving throw by 10 or less.
At 13th level, a whispering initiate who successfully saves against the effects of a spell from the scrying subschool automatically learns the identity of the caster. She is treated as being familiar with him for the purposes of her own scrying spells for the next 24 hours.
This ability replaces improved feint.
Enriched Arcana: At 2nd level, and every level thereafter where she gains access to a new level of spells, a whispering initiate learns two additional spells. These spells are in addition to the number of spells given on Table 2: Beguiler Spells Known. These spells cannot be exchanged for different spells at higher levels. These bonus spells are as follows: 1st-Risidual Tracking (APG), Sanctuary; 2nd-Share Memory (UM), Blood Biography (APG); 3rd-Scrying, Spell Immunity; 4th-Detect Scrying, Communal Nondetection (UC); 5th-Discern Lies, Mage's Private Sanctum; 6th-Greater Scrying, Antimagic Field; 7th-Stone Tell, Circle of Clarity (UM); 8th-Greater Prying Eyes, Greater Spell Immunity; 9th-Retrocognition (OA), Communal Mind Blank (UC). This ability replaces savvy preparation.
Arcane Fidelity (Ex): At 6th level, a whispering initiate using the scrying spell can reliably cast the following spells through the sensor: detect chaos, detect evil, detect good, detect law, detect magic, and message. This ability replaces silent spell.
Keen Scry (Ex): At 10th level, the visual range of a whispering initiate's scrying subschool spells is doubled. Furthermore, the range of any darkvision she possesses is doubled when observing through a scrying sensor. This ability replaces still spell.
Counterscry (Su): At 15th level, whenever a whispering initiate successfully saves against the effects of the scrying or greater scrying spells she can choose reflect the spell back upon its caster, observing him. While the reflected spell uses her own caster level, DC, and Will save modifier, the beguiler does not have to exhaust a spell slot in order to use this ability; instead the spell is fueled by the magical energies of her opponent's failed spell. If the original caster successfully saves against the spell's effects, he is still left unaware of the scrying attempt. This ability replaces swift feint.
Warding Veil (Su): At 20th level, a whispering initiate gains a powerful illusory veil to protect her from prying eyes. She is warded by a constant screen spell centered on herself, however the illusion is only visible to scrying. She can change the nature of the illusion as a full round action, or suppress the illusion as a move action. Once per day she can extend the illusion to all observers for 8 hours, however the ward no longer follows her as she moves and she is no longer protected from scrying spells until her daily spell allotment is refreshed. This ability replaces paragon's aspect.

SylverFox |

Petrifying mind is amazing, I'm going to be rolling up a new beguiler in about a month's time and it's going to be hard to choose between counterfeit blood and petrifying mind. Love them both so much.
Whispering initiate seems really situational, I guess it might work better as an NPC/BBEG but I'm not really feeling it for a PC.

Penumbral Shadow |

Petrified Mind is fantastic, wouldn't change a thing. One question: why does the paragon's aspect only work on intelligent creatures while petrifying aura works on any creature?
I'm with Sylver on the Whispering Initiate, very interesting option for a DM, but not great for a player (though it'd be a pain for a DM to have on in his party since he can't just play the "he was scrying on you" card to explain bad guy metaknowledge). It feels like the archetype gets too bogged down in scrying and has missed out on the spy/infiltrator aspect. Maybe instead of arcane fidelity you can give it the ability to cast a handful of spells as SLAs: I'm thinking spells like invisibility, undetectable alignment, silence, glibness, modify memory.

ertw |
Petrified Mind is fantastic, wouldn't change a thing. One question: why does the paragon's aspect only work on intelligent creatures while petrifying aura works on any creature?
*Fixes mistake* you saw nothing. Yeah they should both affect intelligent creatures.
I'm with Sylver on the Whispering Initiate, very interesting option for a DM, but not great for a player (though it'd be a pain for a DM to have on in his party since he can't just play the "he was scrying on you" card to explain bad guy metaknowledge). It feels like the archetype gets too bogged down in scrying and has missed out on the spy/infiltrator aspect. Maybe instead of arcane fidelity you can give it the ability to cast a handful of spells as SLAs: I'm thinking spells like invisibility, undetectable alignment, silence, glibness, modify memory.
I can see your point about the scrying. I'd definitely be interested in developing the infiltrator side of the archetype further, I guess I was kind of relying on the beguiler's order for that kind of flavour. Let me see what I can put together.

Penumbral Shadow |

Penumbral Shadow wrote:I'm with Sylver on the Whispering Initiate, very interesting option for a DM, but not great for a player (though it'd be a pain for a DM to have on in his party since he can't just play the "he was scrying on you" card to explain bad guy metaknowledge). It feels like the archetype gets too bogged down in scrying and has missed out on the spy/infiltrator aspect. Maybe instead of arcane fidelity you can give it the ability to cast a handful of spells as SLAs: I'm thinking spells like invisibility, undetectable alignment, silence, glibness, modify memory.I can see your point about the scrying. I'd definitely be interested in developing the infiltrator side of the archetype further, I guess I was kind of relying on the beguiler's order for that kind of flavour. Let me see what I can put together.
I hadn't thought about the orders, but yeah I think having it be part of the archetype would be a good idea to tie the whole theme of these beguilers together.

ertw |
So here's the replacement for Arcane Fidelity:
Arcane Infiltrator (Sp): At 6th level, a whispering initiate gains the ability to cast any one of the following spells as a spell-like ability: forced quiet, invisibility, or undetectable alignment. She can use this ability once per day at 6th level and she gains an additional daily use for every four beguiler levels she gains thereafter (to a maximum of four daily uses at 18th level).
At 10th level, she adds glibness, and nondetection to the list of spells she can use with this ability.
At 14th level, she adds modify memory, and shadow walk to the list of spells she can use with this ability. This ability replaces silent spell.

CuttDeep |

So here's the replacement for Arcane Fidelity:
Arcane Infiltrator (Sp): At 6th level, a whispering initiate gains the ability to cast any one of the following spells as a spell-like ability: forced quiet, invisibility, or undetectable alignment. She can use this ability once per day at 6th level and she gains an additional daily use for every four beguiler levels she gains thereafter (to a maximum of four daily uses at 18th level).
At 10th level, she adds glibness, and nondetection to the list of spells she can use with this ability.
At 14th level, she adds modify memory, and shadow walk to the list of spells she can use with this ability. This ability replaces silent spell.
How do you determine the save DC and caster level for these spells?

ertw |
Any chance we might get an updated PDF at some point with your new additions?
It's in the works right now, hoping to have it all together soon.
How do you determine the save DC and caster level for these spells?
Aside from the missing DC and caster level CD mentioned, arcane infiltrator looks really good. Much more in line with the class's spy theme.
That was oversight on my part. Caster level will be equal to beguiler level and save DC will by 10 + 1/2 beguiler level + her Intelligence modifier.

CuttDeep |

JonathonWilder wrote:Have you considered possibly showing this to a third party and getting it published?WotC still holds the copyrights on all the beguiler stuff so I probably wouldn't actually be able to get it published without significant alterations to the class and its core abilities.
You've done so much to add to the class, I think you would still be able to publish it if you didn't use the beguiler name itself.

ertw |
ertw wrote:You've done so much to add to the class, I think you would still be able to publish it if you didn't use the beguiler name itself.JonathonWilder wrote:Have you considered possibly showing this to a third party and getting it published?WotC still holds the copyrights on all the beguiler stuff so I probably wouldn't actually be able to get it published without significant alterations to the class and its core abilities.
Even then, I'd still like to keep this as something free for anybody to use.

ertw |
Tonight I was thinking about a way to turn the stygian skirmisher PrC into a more general archetype and I've come up with an idea that I'm pretty fond of:
The essential idea is that they can summon a weapon from the plane of shadow (similar to shadow weapon, but more powerful); this weapon could be any type of weapon that they are proficient with (though they still have to provide ammunition for ranged weapons). The weapon would gain the option to increase in damage as per the warpriest's sacred weapon ability. It would not remain in the material plane for a set duration, but instead could be dismissed (swift action) or summoned (full round action requiring concentration) at will.
The details of course need to be hammered out and a few issues remain:
- Trade offs: This is a pretty powerful martial boost to the beguiler, it'll have to have a fair trade off WRT the powers replaced. Since this was meant to replace the more martial focused beguiler, a few trade offs I was considering were: diminished spells per day, diminished spells known, or a slowed order power progression.
- Enhancement bonuses: If there's no path to make this summoned weapon magic beyond the +2 granted by shadow weapon, it's going to fall off in terms of usefulness pretty quickly. I'm not sure what the best path towards giving players the option to improve the bonuses of this weapon might be. The automatic bonus progression from unchained is an interesting option, but that would end up skewing wealth by level.
- Other powers: I'm not sure whether this summoned weapon is enough to really make a really compelling archetype. If not I'll have to figure out what other powers to include in the archetype, and what other powers from the beguiler should be replaced. I'd like to make this another archetype that doesn't simply replace order powers.
Thoughts/ideas?

Penumbral Shadow |

Okay I've got an idea for this. The trade off would be the diminished spells per day and the loss of savvy preparation (that cuts out a big part of the beguiler's magical diversity). More tradeoffs would of course be necessary for other powers, but that seems like a fair way to push the more martial aspect of the archetype.
For the enhancement bonuses I was thinking that the power would manifest as a tattoo or marking on the beguiler's skin. It wouldn't take an item slot, but could be enchanted like an amulet of mighty fists.
As for other powers:
- I'd like to see this archetype based around a signature weapon like the stygian skirmisher. I'd grant weapon focus with this signature weapon and only allow the beguiler to summon a weapon of this type. Maybe the archetype could grant an alternate signature weapon (without weapon focus) at a later level.
- I think the stygian pool would be a good carryover from the SS, use it to power cool abilities with the summoned weapon. Something like the ability to duplicate your summoned weapon for 1 minute (for TWF), making an extra attack at full BAB during a full attack, changing the summoned weapon to another type of weapon for a round (wouldn't get weapon focus, but would get the damage increase).
- Dark regeneration is another good option to bring over from SS to siphon arcane power into martial power.

ertw |
Okay, had some time to digest this and I really like what you've done with the conversion. I've been missing beguilers for use as NPCs and big bads ever since I switched to path finder. Bards never really did the trick for me and the mesmerist only built up hope and then tore it down.
Thanks for the kind words. I'd love to hear your impressions after using it for a while.
Also as a heads up, I'm hoping to have the updated conversion document uploaded later tonight or tomorrow morning.