Maybe the arcanist has something to do with it since it seems like it will be really good with metamagic.The Arcanist double dipping into metamagic reducers like Wayang Spell Hunter or Magical Lineage was never answered. As things stand you could have an arcanist memorising something like Empowered Fireball in a level three slot then quickening it with a level 5 slot then maximising it with a normal Rod. So in effect a level 12 spell out of a 5th level slot.
Um.. No. Those traits only apply once, no matter how many meta magics you apply. Quickened Empowered Fireballs are 7th level spell slots until you get to Spell Perfection(Fireball) where they be one 3rd level slot using spells .[/derail]
the wizard has already spent his funds on bribing a planar ally or on bringing up an undead being.
The fighter is spending the same amount on an NPC.
The money you might spend on animate dead can be generated by Blood Money and you dont have to bribe Planar Bound beings, you can simply charm or suggest them to accept the deal you give them. No costs involved at all thanks and then I can use my cash to go off and hire these mythical high level hirelings the fighter is hiring. Also I have far more skill points than the fighter so am much better placed to use Bluff/Diplomacy to negotiate a good deal and can further enhance those skills with magic.
Or I could just go off and dominate some local giants if I really need a meat shield for my adventures.
You're now talking a time delay or coercion, and referencing a spell most DM's simply aren't going to allow into play because of the abuse related to it.
One dispel magic or prot/whatever, and your giants/outsiders are loose and turning on you. Certainly is cost efficient, however, right up until they get loose and wreak havoc on your plans. You also have to spend the time to find them, and get them where you want them to be. They also are not suitable for hosting the local nobility at the annual Baron's Gala.
Forcing an outsider into compliance is a role-playing choice, that should rebound on you severely in the future. Outsiders don't like being summoned and sacrificed any more then any other intelligent being, and some uppity mortal spellcaster treating them like disposable tools will get what is coming to him.
Your bright wizard also got more demand on those skills with your need for Knowledge skills and Spellcraft. The fighter has NO required skills. If he wants to do Profession or Diplomacy, he can go ahead and do so. Arguing skill points is a lost cause.
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The gist of the matter is the wizard can recruit allies based on class features from a very, very wide array of beings.
The fighter can recruit NPC's from a much more limited selection, but guess what? He can still recruit them, and he doesn't need to be coercive to do so. The fact it's not a class ability doesn't mean the option is not there, folks.
===Aelryinth
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Cohorts and followers are not hirelings.
As for inferior: Living beings can:
1) Take initiative
2) Change tactics to adapt to an enemy.
3) Revise plans on the fly
4) Accomplish objectives
5) Act independently of direct orders.What you're proposing is that your undead are better then living henchmen. If that were true, everyone would have constructs as minions, for the same reason as undead without the social problems. There's a reason that getting a cohort with Leadership is generally considered the strongest of feats.
Don't they have rules for hiring NPC's somewhere in the Core rules or Game Master's Guides? I thought the NPC Codex was chock full of characters for the PC's to either hire or fight.
==Aelryinth
The reason why Golems are not everywhere is because they require a high level wizard to make, in addition to a small fortune per golem.
As for the "advantages" you give the living cohorts, those can easily be remedied by the Spell Create Undead. With that spell you can make intelligent undead. BAM. Additionally, the undead make much better defenders (which is the case with a CR 10 wizard who is the BBEG).
I don't know about better defenders, but we're not talking a one-shot, we're talking minions.
Intelligent undead minions are slaves just looking for a way to get out from under your control. So, yeah, they are expendable, they know it, and if they get lose, you have problems.==Aelryinth
actually intelligent undead are actually much better slaves becasue THEY CANNOT disobey you. In fact, especially in the case of vampires, they are actually compelled to help you in every way possible, much like a charm spell.
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Oh and I like how your response to the wizard using dominate on hill giants is "Well one dispel magic can fix that."
Guess who cannot cast dispel magic? So your answer is, "Well I can beat a Wizard if I bring my own wizard." So, ergo, proving OUR point. The fighter is incompentent without his wizard buddy.
As for the whole henchmen thing, you are still wrong. Because remember, yes a wizard can run around with his 40+ HD of zombies and skeleton, and what have you, but he can also summon EVEN MORE allies in the form of Summon Monster IN THE MIDDLE OF COMBAT to swarm you even more. Guess what, action economy is huge. This is why Master Summoners are often cited as being rediculously powerful. Well between having 40+HD of undead, summoned demons, AND the necromancer you are going to be VERY hard pressed to beat his action economy. And if you don't want to go the summon Monster route you can always use the Ghoul Army spell and suddenly create 1d4+1 Ghouls that do not count toward your limit from Animate Dead that happen to also explode when they die. Oh! And funny thing about summon monster, there is a feat that lets you summon undead versions of things too!
Oh and god forbid that the necromancer is a Dhampir...
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So there are a ton of complaints (some from me even) that the errata we tend to see is incredibly uneven.
"Martials get all the nerfs while casters stay strong."The Devs, on the other hand, stick like glue to the line that, "We consider everything equally and make changes where needed; we don't target melee more than casters." (paraphrased)
Well, can we prove that here?
Here's what I'm looking for: As many "caster and/or spell nerfs" as you can think of since Pathfinder started. If the nerfs really do come even-handed, then there should be evidence to back that up, yes?
Here's what I'm not looking for: Snark. I'm honestly, legitimately, interested to see the disparity between caster nerfs and non-caster nerfs. If you wanna just be snarky, please make a different thread, or post in one of the various ones that already exist?(And yes, before anyone brings it up, the Crane Wing discussions are what make me want to do this. I have a hard time believing that Crane Wing caused more problems for GMs than something like Color Spray, which has gone untouched, afaik, since PF 1.0.)
Actually, what the devs stated very clearly is that they stick to the roles for each "class" (rather a type of PC based on its abilities actually) that are so ingrained in the system that you just cannot change them without PFRPG becoming a completely different game.
Based on this, comparing only the number of errata nerfing the casters and those nerfing the martials is essentially meaningless IMO.
Cohorts and followers are not hirelings.
I agree, that's why I'm asking where the ruleset for hiring high level PC classes as hirelings is?
Don't they have rules for hiring NPC's somewhere in the Core rules or Game Master's Guides? I thought the NPC Codex was chock full of characters for the PC's to either hire or fight.
Nnnnnnnnnot really. The GMG, CRB, and the UC has listings for hiring NPCs, but those are low-level mercenaries, lawyers, nurses, butlers etc.
As far as I can tell the closest you're going to get to hiring a high level spellcaster is the Spellcasting service, which is for a single spell, typically cast 24 hours after you hire it, at the caster's convenience at his location.
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I'm not saying its fighter exclusive. But the wizard can't spend his money in two places at once, either.
Nor can the Fighter. But Wizards have more options about how to spend their money. Especially since they can save tons of gold by crafting their own gear, not having to buy weapons and armor, not needing items that give flight, etc.
And while the wizard might have more options, the fighter likely has more time, and more likely to have Profession (solider/military/whatever) enabling him to interact with his foes.
That's really pushing it. Fighters have very few skill points and pretty much zero out-of-combat class features (in fact the only reason Fighter is likely to have "more time" is because he has nearly nothing useful to do out of combat). They are also very likely to dump Cha and/or Int. And of course, Wizards can take ranks in profession(whatever) too. I'm sure in a world full of magic, military forces have their own spell casters.
Sure, Fighters can hire NPCs... But they don't it better than anyone. They are not even particularly good at dealing with NPCs in any way other than physical attacks.
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And while the wizard might have more options, the fighter likely has more time, and more likely to have Profession (solider/military/whatever) enabling him to interact with his foes.
Um... what?... You are FULLY AWARE that fighters only have 2+ int skills right?... and INT is their dump stat. You can argue that "Well then don't dump INT" but then that means either their Wis is taking a hit (which hurts his already poor will) to keep his combat ability up or his combat abilities will take a hit (a fighter needs high Str/Con AND decent dex).
More importantly, WHAT THE FREAQ DOES PROFESSION SOLDIER DO FOR YOU???? I mean... really? So now you're creating house-rules to give more value to a rather useless skill. Profession soldier, by RAW, only has 2 uses.
1) Make piss poor money
2) Enable you to answer questions regarding your profession (acting like a psuedo-knowledge skill).
So no, your theoretical Profession Soldier will do NOTHING of the sort. The only other time Profession Soldier comes into play is if you are playing Mass-Combat rules, at which point his Profession Soldier skill is used in place of his leadership score when it comes to his ability to lead his unit.
Wait you know what? I WANT you to take profession soldier. Therefore you are wasting your skill points in that and not in something a little more useful like Perception.
I like the people who claim tiers don't exist.
This means that all options are perfectly balanced, AND that any balance changes made don't effect the balance at all. The Crane Wing change? Martials are still just as good! No change overall, still perfect
I think tiers will always exist as long as the system says that a Level 12 Wizard and Fighter are the same CR.
Hardly.
And comparing summoned monsters conjured on the spur of the moment to permanent long-term hirelings is moving the goal posts. Summoned monsters are just spells with hit points.
40 HD of undead is 1000 gp in Onyx gems out of pocket, again for minions with no initiative.
And no, controlled vampires are not forced to do things in your best interests all the time. They are compelled to obey you, that's it, full stop. Saying they can't selectively attempt to bring about your downfall is really not paying attention to that Evil alignment kicker that they have.
Ditto the outsiders. yes, possibility of experience. Possibility of steamrolling you dead, too, in the form of incoming adventuring party for which YOU are the loot and experience.
Which is, after all, the primary people the fighter would hire. Grab some adventurers, promise them loot, xp and glory, and lead them against the wizard who thinks his 40 HD of undead is a match for them. Sure, the undead don't demand a treasure share. But they aren't going to measure up, either.
And, yes, they do need some iron rules for hiring out higher level characters...
==Aelryinth
I still wonder what 10th level character would work for 250gp...
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And no, controlled vampires are not forced to do things in your best interests all the time. They are compelled to obey you, that's it, full stop. Saying they can't selectively attempt to bring about your downfall is really not paying attention to that Evil alignment kicker that they have.
The vampire arrived quite punctually. Of course, it had to, didn't it?
"Master?" she hissed, her fangs bared ever-so-slightly. Her name was Lyra, once, but her master refused to let her use it. She was known as 'vampire' or 'slave', now.
The vampire's master gestured, once, to a seat. The undead being settled herself on the chair, glaring daggers at the necromancer that owned her obedience.
"It's time we had a chat, slave," the necromancer said pleasantly. "I've grown both irritated and impressed with your defiance. You're very intelligent, we both know this. Our relationship should be more productive."
"You could always free me," the vampire murmured sarcastically.
"Hardly," the necromancer drawled. "You will listen to the next order, with all of your attention."
The vampire sat up straight, opening her mouth to talk.
"You will not interrupt me or speak until I am finished relaying the order."
The vampire's mouth closed.
"You will, with every resource within your power, support and protect myself, my welfare, my goals, my interests, and my property. You will expend your talents on your own initiative for my benefit, strive to fulfill the spirit of my orders, and inform me of changes in circumstance which may cause an order to run counter to my own interests. You will not cause harm to myself, my welfare, my goals, my interests, or my property without explicit orders to the contrary from me, either through action, deliberate inaction, or indirect action, and you will furthermore seek intelligent methods of expanding my power and influence. You may indicate that you understand."
The vampire was flabbergasted. Slowly, she closed her mouth and nodded. Age-old hate dwelled in the shadows of her eyes.
"Good," the necromancer purred. "Now, about my apprentice's plots against me..."
You know I think that kind of solves the fighter right there. He is the feat master...so he should be able to ignore some prereqs. Not sure how to do it but I think that would really put the fighter in league with the barbarian...that and more skill points.
A thought...
You cannot, no matter how hard u try, nerf casters and martials equally. Martials are largely based on a succession of feat chains or a handful of top tier feats mixed with good quality class features. Casters on the other hand tend to have spells and be built on those spells. Even if someone says nerfs a spell or a lot of spells, there are so many blue rates spells among the guides that its impossible to nerf the caster.
Furthermore, the feats based on casting tend to support virtually any spell in ur entire list as long as u meet prerequisites, which is usually minimal when compared to combat feats. Also, consider that if glitter dust was just abolished, great I still have invisibility and how many other spells to cast half a dozen times?
I feel that feats are already less than most spells and when any feat or feat chain gets dumbed down it makes a controversial situation more problematic. And as I said we have too many spells for a caster to truly b dumbed down. U could make the arguement that if every caster lost every class feature he would still be as good as a martial character.
Casters and martials don't have to be equal. I don't think anyone playing 3E or PF expects that to ever happen. All we want is to close the gap a bit, and for martials to actually be better than casters in some situations (other than the "days you have like a dozen encounters but infinite healing" scenarios that almost never happen). At the very least, since PF is a modified version of 3E, we should at least expect the gap to not expand even larger, like it DID. That's seriousl not asking for much.
And it does not have to be that way. Caster feats can be nerfed. Noncaster feats can be buffed. The paradigm of martials having to burn a bunch of feats they don't even want just to get to the end of the chain for the one they want CAN die in a fire like it should have long ago. If a feat requires Dodge, Mobility, and BAB +4...what is the harm...
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Which is, after all, the primary people the fighter would hire. Grab some adventurers, promise them loot, xp and glory, and lead them against the wizard who thinks his 40 HD of undead is a match for them. Sure, the undead don't demand a treasure share. But they aren't going to measure up, either.
And, yes, they do need some iron rules for hiring out higher level characters...
==Aelryinth
Thing is, now the fighter is hiring (via house rules, since there are no rules for hiring high level NPCs) a full party of adventurers (!) to counter a wizard using nothing but his own class features and 1,6% of his WBL.
Let's say the 10th fighter does hire 40HD worth of adventurers - 4 lvl 10 characters. Are four 10th level characters really going to risk their life and limbs for 250 gp apiece? I have trouble making my level 1 party give me the time of day if all I offer is a 1k reward for them to split.
If they're this cheap, why isn't the wizard hiring a similar party to attack the fighter as well as creating undead?
If the fighter is promising his newfound companions loot and glory for killing the wizard, why can't the wizard do the same thing and go after the fighter? Presumably the fighter and the wizard have the same net worth in treasure and equipment, minus the 1k for creating undead.
And ironically the wizard should have a far, far easier time finding the fighter than vice versa. Kinda hard to plan a hit on a 10th level character who memorizes Teleport unless you have access to divination spells.
Finally, I have to agree with Stream - "Wizards aren't overpowered because I can hire my own wizard" is not a very convincing argument even if it was true.
==Aelryinth
Ok lets break your argument one by one shall we?
1)
And comparing summoned monsters conjured on the spur of the moment to permanent long-term hirelings is moving the goal posts. Summoned monsters are just spells with hit points.
40 HD of undead is 1000 gp in Onyx gems out of pocket, again for minions with no initiative.
Except that the summoned monsters CAN take on the hirelings. In fact, the summoned creatures are BETTER because they don't care if they "die" because they know they can't die. They just go back home again.
As for the "initiative" that is a weak and fake argument. The undead are controlled by the necromancer. Guess what necromancers ALSO are? WIZARDS. I.e. the guys who are capable of scrying and asking THE GODS AND THE UNIVERSE questions. If a wizard puts his focus somewhere, he can find out anything. The wizard can very easily adjust to changes and lead his troops accordingly.
2)
And no, controlled vampires are not forced to do things in your best interests all the time. They are compelled to obey you, that's it, full stop. Saying they can't selectively attempt to bring about your downfall is really not paying attention to that Evil alignment kicker that they have.
Ditto the outsiders. yes, possibility of experience. Possibility of steamrolling you dead, too, in the form of incoming adventuring party for which YOU are the loot and experience.
Actually yes they do. You are forgetting the flavor of undead. The best example would be the book Libris Mortis. In that hardback they go into the ecologya nd such of vampires and their spawn and how vampires view their masters.
As for demons, they are compelled to do EXACTLY as you say. So if you are intelligent and word your contract correctly, they are bond by it.
Which is, after all, the primary people the fighter would hire. Grab some adventurers, promise them loot, xp and glory, and lead them against the wizard who thinks his 40 HD of undead is a match for them. Sure, the undead don't demand a treasure share. But they aren't going to measure up, either.
And, yes, they do need some iron rules for hiring out higher level characters...
Except that you are denying the wizard his ability to hire people as well. 1000 gp in onyx is not much for a level 10. Add in the fact that the wizard is making his own gear, almost doubling his WBL, he can easily summon 40+HD of undead+Has Summoned Demons+Have Bound Demons+Hire 40 HD worth of party members+ have his undead from Ghoul Army (1d4+1 Summoned Ghouls that explode when they die). Oh! And this is not even counting the fact that the mage can also go out and dominate some hill giants or something for EVEN MORE comrades. so yoru effectively 50 HD people are up against easily over 100 HD worth of enemies (40HD Party+40HD undead+10 HD Wizard himself+X HD from summoned creatures, bound creatures, dominated creatures).
So tell me again how your fighter can even REMOTELY compare...
You know I think that kind of solves the fighter right there. He is the feat master...so he should be able to ignore some prereqs. Not sure how to do it but I think that would really put the fighter in league with the barbarian...that and more skill points.
Im toying with giving the fighter the added benefit to get an extra combat feat EVERY level...and be able to add his levels in fighter to his BAB for determining what feats he can qualify for.
Maybe the same for rogue/ninja except talents every level. And some bonus feats. Probably something to do with feint. And sneak attack working on everything.
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I liked the "If you want to play fighter or Rogue in a normal game, just Gestalt them" idea someone had.
That gives a lot of flexibility to both, but not really enough to make it better than say, bards at the absolute best. Possibly a bit too high damage.
I played a gestalt fighter/rogue back in 3.5. The high damage didn't happen very often because it was still very situational. You are still left behind by any caster class by mid levels when it comes to flexibility and versatility. The rogue's skills don't make up for the narrative impact that spells give casters.
In my gaming group, in 3.5, the Swashbuckler/rogue or ninja was a more deadly combination than rogue/fighter.
You know I think that kind of solves the fighter right there. He is the feat master...so he should be able to ignore some prereqs. Not sure how to do it but I think that would really put the fighter in league with the barbarian...that and more skill points.Im toying with giving the fighter the added benefit to get an extra combat feat EVERY level...and be able to add his levels in fighter to his BAB for determining what feats he can qualify for.
Maybe the same for rogue/ninja except talents every level. And some bonus feats. Probably something to do with feint. And sneak attack working on everything.
I know a guy who played a feat every level for fighter, I did not join, I'll tell u what he told me...
1) the fighter couldn't multiclass as the incentive to play straight fighter was too good.
2) the feats acceleration was semi wasted as things like BAB stopped whole chains dead in their tracks.
3) because of the 1 and 2 the fighter became a switch hitter faster but seemingly did not gain significant more damage. He did tell me that he felt that if he had made use of defensive feats like dodge, combat expertise, etc he would have been more durable but damage was largely the same.IF his assessment was reasonably accurate, and I don't know myself, this adds good fun at low to mid levels but still fails horribly at upper levels as usual.
Totally see that. Why I added he can add his levels in fighter to his BAB when determining if hr qualifies for feats. I.E. he can qualify for feats that require a BAB of +6 at level 3. 3rd level fighter + 3 BAB. It doesnt always make sense I suppose if a feat affects iterative attacks...but he could qualify for everything by level 10. Also lets him use his level progression feats for something other than combat maybe.
Dunno...like i said im thinking of trying it out.
You can hire spellcasters.
==Aelryinth
Can you provide the pricing for spellcaster minions? The Core Rulebook puts spellcasting at 10gp x CL x spell x castings, with the stipulation that the spellcaster will typically default to "no," with the possibility of negotiating it for yet higher pay, if attempted to be hired to cast spells in an adventuring or otherwise dangerous situation.
If you want to bring the spellcaster somewhere to cast a spell (for example, to cast dispel magic on a magical seal in a dungeon) you need to negotiate with her; the default answer to such requests is typically no
It's possible that a later book expanded on or changed these rules and provides actual pricing for a non spellcaster turning it about and hiring spellcaster minions, but without the pricing in hand it's impossible to test assertions like that a fighter can go out and hire a 10th level wizard with the same gold that it costs a wizard to animate a 10th level undead. The prices might be different, and you might end up with 4 10th level undead for 1 10th level wizard, or vice versa, which are starkly different comparisons than one to one is.
For what it's worth, attempting to use the Core Rulebook prices - assuming a 150% hazard pay increase is negotiated and the 10th level wizard minion is casting at a relatively low intensity, just one spell of levels 1 through 5 each day and tosses in cantrips free - is 2,275 gp per spellcaster per day, which would suggest that the cost of one day of half-assed minionage from one spellcaster is approximately equal to that of ten permanent mindless undead minions of the same level.
That seems excessive, actually. Do the later books indeed have a system of pricing that is more generous to the non spellcaster seeking spellcaster minions?
Which is, after all, the primary people the fighter would hire. Grab some adventurers, promise them loot, xp and glory, and lead them against the wizard who thinks his 40 HD of undead is a match for them. Sure, the undead don't demand a treasure share. But they aren't going to measure up, either.
And, yes, they do need some iron rules for hiring out higher level characters...
==Aelryinth
Thing is, now the fighter is hiring (via house rules, since there are no rules for hiring high level NPCs) a full party of adventurers (!) to counter a wizard using nothing but his own class features and 1,6% of his WBL.
Let's say the 10th fighter does hire 40HD worth of adventurers - 4 lvl 10 characters. Are four 10th level characters really going to risk their life and limbs for 250 gp apiece? I have trouble making my level 1 party give me the time of day if all I offer is a 1k reward for them to split.
If they're this cheap, why isn't the wizard hiring a similar party to attack the fighter as well as creating undead?
If the fighter is promising his newfound companions loot and glory for killing the wizard, why can't the wizard do the same thing and go after the fighter? Presumably the fighter and the wizard have the same net worth in treasure and equipment, minus the 1k for creating undead.
And ironically the wizard should have a far, far easier time finding the fighter than vice versa. Kinda hard to plan a hit on a 10th level character who memorizes Teleport unless you have access to divination spells.
Finally, I have to agree with Stream - "Wizards aren't overpowered because I can hire my own wizard" is not a very convincing argument even if it was true.
Now, now, the wizard has already spent his 1.6% of WBL making undead. We're just using the same amount of money to hire some NPC's. IF the wizard wants to hire more folks, go ahead. The fighter can spend the same amount of money himself.
Who says the wizard doesn't intend to kill the fighter?
What IS the monthly pay for that 10th level fighter on the payroll of the local baron, anyway? And all those 5th level sergeants? NPC's are cheap.
And I was restricting everything to pure minions, NOT to ability to teleport, divine or else, thank you.
I already touched on charming stuff. Charming stuff has drawbacks of its own. You don't have to pay anything, until its time to pay the piper, and then payment can be...expensive. It's also time-consuming to locate the monster, go out and get them (and not get killed) and then bring them back, while also keeping them fed and sheltered and not riling up the locals. What's the fighter doing in the meantime? Sitting on his duff waiting to die?
As for trying to apply the Laws of Robotics to a vampire...sorry, you've got a naturally CE entity with high intelligence and likely some screws loose. All it has to do is convince itself its doing one thing instead of another or that its acting 'in your best interests', and all sorts of fun things can go wrong. Are you seriously trying to get me to believe that YOU couldn't find wriggle room inside those wordings?
And demons aren't bound by their words, that's devils. And if you think some reeeeeeally nasty stuff can't go wrong if you're ordering around evil outsiders, you just haven't played with the right DM's.
==Aelryinth
Now, now, the wizard has already spent his 1.6% of WBL making undead. We're just using the same amount of money to hire some NPC's.
So again, what level wizard and for how long can he actually get for 1.6% of his WBL, according to the rules? I reiterate my ignorance of what pricing is being used here, and my desire to learn of it.
They're tossing around a level 10 wizard, who can animate 40 HD of undead, at the cost of a 25 gp onyx per HD, so 1000 gp.
Meanwhile, the fighter with a 1000 gp can only let it sit in his purse and can't recruit minions or help or anything.
==Aelryinth
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You do realize that hiring minions is not Fighter-exclusive, right?
If the Wizard decides hiring NPCs is a better idea than animating undead, he can do it. If the Fighter decides creating undead is more advantageous, he can't.
What exactly is the argument here?
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How many times do I have to ask the questions, "are there any rules for the price of wizard hirelings that would overrule the Cost of Spellcasting rules in the core books?" and "if so, how much does he cost?" to get an answer?
I get that you want to compare the wizard spending cash on animate to the fighter spending cash on a wizard minion, Ael, I just want to know what that comparison actually is.
I'm not sure what the argument is.
I'm saying the fighter is not helpless. He can spend 1000 gp on minions just like the wizard (or cleric, or sorcerer, or witch, or oracle, or...you get the idea) can. The wizard spends his money and his spell to get some zombies and skeletons, for which he has to locate the corpses if he wants something more then rote humans.
The fighter (and everyone else) goes down to the local place where mercs hang, spends some time and hires himself a bunch of minions for a job, too.
It doesn't matter that the wizard can hire/spend money on DIFFERENT minions. He still has to spend some coin to get his undead, to bribe his planar ally, and whatnot. If he wants to spend MORE money hiring minions, he can do so...so can the fighter, or anyone else.
So, I don't really CARE if Animate Dead is caster exclusive, it still costs money, and other people can use the same amount of money to accomplish pretty much the same thing. Longer term stuff like that is just money outlay. Casters get a lot more variety in who they can hire with the same amount of coin, is what it comes down to.
Now, do I believe Fighters, specifically, should get minions/companions? Yeah, I do. Fighters are the guys who train other fighters. Every fighter should be lugging around a student, students, whatever, who might actually pay HIM for his time. How much is the time of a 10th level Fighter worth for training? We don't know. Why can't a fighter have students around, like rangers have bears? I dunno.
==Aelryinth
As for trying to apply the Laws of Robotics to a vampire...sorry, you've got a naturally CE entity with high intelligence and likely some screws loose. All it has to do is convince itself its doing one thing instead of another or that its acting 'in your best interests', and all sorts of fun things can go wrong. Are you seriously trying to get me to believe that YOU couldn't find wriggle room inside those wordings?
Except they are NOT CE. Hell, they really don't even need to act evil. This is where alignment breaks down. What happens when a paladin contracts vampirism? Does he suddenly just go on a mass murdering spree and enjoy killing everything? The idea that all undead are evil is stupid. It has more to do with the idea that undead things are unnatural and, therefore, evil. Their alignment has NOTHING to do with their mentality or their actions. They are evil becauase they are evil.
As for hwo undead view masters, you are not understanding (which honestly does not suprise me considering your comprehension of all the other posts). Vampires have a sort of twisted distorted affection like thing for their creators. They are not like bound to their masters like a dominate spell or a devil's contract. It goes MUCH deeper than that.
I'm saying the fighter is not helpless. He can spend 1000 gp on minions just like the wizard (or cleric, or sorcerer, or witch, or oracle, or...you get the idea) can. The wizard spends his money and his spell to get some zombies and skeletons, for which he has to locate the corpses if he wants something more then rote humans
Except what will 1000gp get you? a level 5? Maybe? Especially if you are having to go attack a powerful wizard. VERY few people would willingly attack a powerful wizard for a paultry 1000 gp... And the wizard is not getting some zombies. He is getting 40 HD WORTH of zombies. I.e. He is either getting ALOT of zombies (quess what? 1/20 attacks will hit no matter what and with enough zombies you will slowly whittle the fighter to death. Oh and the fighter can only kill so many things at once...) or some REALLY BIG zombies. Again, more than what a fighter can get for 1000 gp...
Additionally you have to remember that the Wizard has MORE effective gold than his fighter counterpart because he can create his own gear at 50% cost, instead of depending on buying from a store. So yeah... Where is your argument again?
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I'm not sure what the argument is.
I'm saying the fighter is not helpless. He can spend 1000 gp on minions just like the wizard (or cleric, or sorcerer, or witch, or oracle, or...you get the idea) can. The wizard spends his money and his spell to get some zombies and skeletons, for which he has to locate the corpses if he wants something more then rote humans.
The fighter (and everyone else) goes down to the local place where mercs hang, spends some time and hires himself a bunch of minions for a job, too.
It doesn't matter that the wizard can hire/spend money on DIFFERENT minions. He still has to spend some coin to get his undead, to bribe his planar ally, and whatnot. If he wants to spend MORE money hiring minions, he can do so...so can the fighter, or anyone else.
The difference here is that there are no rules for "the local place where mercs hang" - if the fighter wants to hire level-appropriate NPCs he either needs to take leadership, or the GM needs to invent a system to accomodate for the fighter. That system might be fighter-friendly (Sure! 4 lvl 10 characters will happily work for you long-term just for the promise of glory) or not so fighter-friendly (1 treasure share per mercenary, split equally with the rest of the party), or it might not exist at all (there simply isn't a mercenary presence in the area where the fighter is).
The Wizard on the other hand, needs no handholding: He has a number of options available for hiring or creating short-term or long-term minions right there in the Core Rule Book. However if the GM does decide to include some kind of mercenary access, that's gravy for the wizard since he's just gaining even more options - he can use Undead for long-term protection jobs, Summon Monsters when he needs a problem fixed immediately, planar calling for more specialized and/or long-term yet challenging tasks, and he can now hire the same hit team the fighter can if that becomes necessary.
How much is the time of a 10th level Fighter worth for training? We don't know.
Actually Ultimate Campaign has rules for this:
Class Abilities: You can use a class ability to provide a service in the settlement to earn capital. For example, a fighter could train a noble's child in swordplay, a cleric could heal townsfolk, and so on. Choose either one type of capital (Goods, Influence, Labor, or Magic) or gp, and attempt a check (1d20 + your character level + your highest ability modifier –5). You may take 10 on this check. Treat this check as your skill check result for using skilled work.
A lvl 10 fighter has a strength of, say... 26? 10 (take 10) + 10 (level) +3 (ability score modifier 8-5) = 23. So a 10th level fighter taking 10 earns 2.3 GP a day training people. If he puts ranks in Profession: Trainer and really tweaks his profession check he could be making 4-5 gold a day or more training people.
I'm saying the fighter is not helpless. He can spend 1000 gp on minions just like the wizard (or cleric, or sorcerer, or witch, or oracle, or...you get the idea) can. The wizard spends his money and his spell to get some zombies and skeletons, for which he has to locate the corpses if he wants something more then rote humansExcept what will 1000gp get you? a level 5? Maybe? Especially if you are having to go attack a powerful wizard. VERY few people would willingly attack a powerful wizard for a paultry 1000 gp... And the wizard is not getting some zombies. He is getting 40 HD WORTH of zombies. I.e. He is either getting ALOT of zombies (quess what? 1/20 attacks will hit no matter what and with enough zombies you will...
Sounds like a one shot adventure.
Party of level 5's get paid 200 gp+X each to slay 10th level wizard plus whatever minions he created. What else the wizard creates increases treasure gained (X).
Fighters are fighters. They are boring and supposed to be.Don't you find something wrong there? It's a game. It's supposed to be fun. Playing a fighter is not a job, you aren't payed for it. It shouldn't be boring. I can stomach fighters not being powerful or balanced. But being boring isn't acceptable in a game
Most of my players find wizards boring. All they do is cast spells. Doesn't mean the class is poorly designed.
Fighter is a simple class. They are good with weapons. They are one of the most popular multi-class choices in my group. I only have one player that enjoys playing straight fighters. No one doesn't think the class does what it is supposed to do.
Most of my players enjoy hybrids. They don't like the limitations of the 9 level caster at low levels. They like the interesting at all levels 6 lvl caster hybrids at this point or things that get a mix of magical talents and other abilities like a Ninja or a Witch.
I would rather see them nerf a bunch of spells than make too many changes to martials.WTF?
Some spells need modification. Enervate and Energy Drain are a couple that could use saves. Prediction of Failure is pretty ridiculous. I'm sure a list could be built of problematic spells that make encounters trivial.
Cacophonous Call could use a save every round addition to it so it isn't more powerful the hold spells.
But which would u rather have between another 10th level fighter OR 20 HD of undead of UR choice?
Fun fact: 1 000 GP would actually buy you 40 HD worth of undead, which is the maximum amount a 10th level spellcaster can control (unless he has Revoke Undead) - the price is 25 GP per HD. You'd have to use Desecrate or two Animate Dead spells to reach the cap though.
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The paradigm of martials having to burn a bunch of feats they don't even want just to get to the end of the chain for the one they want CAN die in a fire like it should have long ago. If a feat requires Dodge, Mobility, and BAB +4...what is the harm...This point cannot be stressed hard enough. Look at the powerful feat options casters have been handed since the release of core.
Persistent Spell and Dazing Spell are probably two of the most potent metamagic feats ever printed and they are both available with no prerequisites, Magical Lineage and Wayang Spellhunter both add to the metamagic madness. Spell Perfection is then the icing on the cake of stupidly overpowered things.
Finally a strong caster feat with prerequisites. But hang on, the prereqs are things you actually want and need to get the most out of the feat. The hardest part of qualifying is for Sorcerers and Clerics spending a skill point per level in Spellcraft.
Meanwhile anything which might even look like vaguely useful for a martial character is buried under a ton of suck and then gets outclassed by spells.
Dazing Spell is pretty annoying. Everything is affected by it. It isn't listed as a mind-affecting effect even though it probably should be. It affects undead. I have not found anything immune to dazing.
This is an example of an oversight by Paizo. I'm quite certain they did not intend dazing to be more powerful than stunning. It is due to nothing being immune to the effect and nothing providing a bonus on the save.
Dazing is obviously supposed to be a reduced stun effect. It should be a mind-affecting effect. Undead and other creatures immune to stunning or mind-affecting effects should be immune to dazing. But the rules guys at Paizo have missed this loophole to date that casters and martials both have been taking advantage of to great effect.
Dazing Spell should be reduced to one or two rounds at the most. A single Dazing Spell AoE effect is an encounter ender. I often see martials take Dazing Critical over stunning because it works on more creatures than stunning.
These are the kind of things I would like to see addressed rather than modifying martials. These kinds of abilities are encounter killers. I have to decide whether to allow them in the game or not if a player tries to take Dazing Spell.