ShadeOfRed's page

I’ve seen a lot of posts about attempts to make a Witcher class. I like that idea a lot, but I think to many try to cram everything into the class itself until it feels bloated, unfocused, and overpowered. I think the thing that is sort of overlooked, is that a Witcher, is no longer really human. They go into their training as humans, but come out as something else.

Is it ridiculous to have a single race that is for a single class? Human, but immune to disease, long-lived, and capable of ingesting powerful poisons to a human, but offering booms to them. Unable to procreate, but not unable to love. Physical mutations, giving cat eyes and low light vision.

I think front loading some of this, as a race, can make the class feel more balanced. And better than, say a Drow, with all of this as well.

I am currently writing a race/class combo up, but was looking for some feedback on this part and what the class should include. An expanded human race I feel.

Thoughts?

Oh, dear lord. That...is a lot of charisma. At that point, I don't have to fight. I could just say, "Stop." And everyone would listen. Then say, "Worship me." And they would. Forever.

That's...broken. lol.

Maybe not that broken.

Okay, let's say I build a Nerubian Race.

This is what I came up with:
Abberation 3RP
Large 7RP
Advanced 4RP
+2Phys +4Cha -2 Int
Normal Move 0RP
Standard Lang 0RP
Greater SR 3RP
NaturalArmor +2 3RP
Climb 2RP
Spell Like Abil 4RP
Web/Vomit Swarm
Quadreped 4RP

So, I'm going to keep it reasonable in that department, as in I want it to resemble a Nerubian. Also, I have to take what is already there for Human, and it's RP points, in account, before I add on...so I can't just rewrite what a human is, I could make something new, but it has to be in Warcraft III.

And the Undead thing, apologies, I mean the 16RP Undead 'template' not just any undead template I can grab. At least that's how I understood it.

I might not be undead, and see if he will let me take the 16 points and use them on my race, because I'm not fully happy with the above.

So, joining into a campaign of some very powerful characters, set in the Warcraft 3 universe. (important because of race choices) Also we are undead legion, more on that below.

Okay, I need help making a character, I'm just overwhelmed, and I need it to be pretty broken to keep up with the others...here is what I have to work with.

Can build a race that exists in the Warcraft 3 universe, anything at all. 30 Racial points to build the race, free undead template on top of those 30 RP points. So, I can take like human, and add RP points up to make a 30 RP race with extra undead like powers or what have you.

Stats: 75 point buy, no need for constitution as already undead, and no con stat.

Class: Kinda want to do Oracle type.

Level 20 + 3 mythic levels.

Double gold by level for 20th level.

Can make a minor artifact to go with all this...

As you can probably guess, just reading this, I'm at a loss of where to start, and also, how do I make this a broken character? As for the rest of the party, we have a dual wielding broken gunslinger with infinite ammo so never reloads, a death knight(antipaladin) with a small army of undead, and an undead dragon/sorcerer who can chain lightning maximized/empowered for around 600 hp damage to like 37 targets? Don't ask, I haven't seen the character sheets, I just need help on making this oracle. Obviously need to be evil like...negative energy is the way of the healing and such.

Please...help me...

Just got my scratch and dent copy of UP.

It honestly has a little ding on the top back corner of the book on the spine, as if it was dropped once or something.

Very happy. Now I have something to look at while at work. (not that I don't have the pdf on my smartphone, but still, I like having a book in my hand)

Thanks guys. I'll let you know, this is like the first 3rd party anything I've ever really bought, besides an occasional adventure from Half Price Books. Thanks again!

That's good news Jeremy.

I am anxious, but I don't mind the waiting anymore.

It will just be more satisfying to have it in my hands, and things that I have to wait for, always feel more valuable to me once I have them.

Glad to hear that new books will be in soon. Will there be enough for all the orders, or just for part of them though?

Those are all enhancement bonuses and enhancement doesn't stack; you maybe could take all of those for strength if you wanted, but only the highest would apply.

Yes. What I assumed. Thank you. +12 to strength is a little much. Regardless the cost.

** spoiler omitted **

You get bonus points. And a Noprize. :)

So...the Egoist chain of powers of Metamorphosis...gives me a question.

Common sense tells me that the power states you can't choose the same power twice. And you can augment, say Major Metamorphosis to allow you to choose choices from Minor and normal Metamorphosis.

I'm taking it, you can't choose +6 Strength from Major, +4 Strength from Metamorphosis and +2 Strength from Minor. If you can...wow. But I'm guessing the line about not choosing the same choice twice applies to all the versions not just the particular version you manifest. Correct me if I'm wrong and you can do this, it changes some things for my ideas for my possible next Egoist character.

(bonus points if you know where the cry of "DARK METAMORPHOSIS" comes from)

Torbyne wrote:

Backwards compatibility was a big deal when it first came out but at this point there is an actual problem with games that don't allow non paizo products at their tables.

You are missing the point here that Paizo themselves are the publisher who wants their material to stay more or less compatible. Paizo make money selling adventures, that is their meat and drink and that is where WotC got it horribly wrong with splatbooks and new editions. Paizo will want to sell their 3.5 and Pathfinder 1.0 adventure paths and modules and PFS material concurrent with any new versions of Pathfinder without having to revise it.

Hence they are not wanting to re-write classes extensively, and why my own monk changes do not go beyond relatively minor alterations.

So what you are saying is that you just 'dabbled' in some changes for the monk?

ShadeOfRed wrote:

master_marshmallow wrote:

Rynjin wrote:

master_marshmallow wrote:

The main problem with fighters is that people want the classes to balance.

Plain and simple, they want the fighter to be good both in and out of combat, they want a secondary reason for the fighter to exist.

I personally enjoy the fact that the fighter is such a simple class and doesn't require such thought investment in what all you can do both in and out of combat, but there are those who feel every class needs to be equal in what they contribute both in and out of combat, otherwise they cannot role play properly.

And I will preach the same song I have preached in every 'balance at all costs' thread. If you want it to balance, then play a different edition, rather than telling us fans of PFRPG that we're wrong for liking things the way they are.

Man it's like a congealed mass of all the fallacious arguments everyone's made over this thread's entire lifespan!

That was kinda the point, I really wanted to bring up Rangers because the thread turned into Rangers vs. Fighters for a minute there, but I couldn't find a way to do it without constructing a wall of text that would just get skipped over.

I'm not sure you know what fallacious means. Unless your point was to make a lot of arguments that are false.

It was supposed to be funny

Ahh, natch. Guess I'm so used to seeing these arguments, I thought you were literally being serious. :)

Rynjin wrote:

master_marshmallow wrote:

The main problem with fighters is that people want the classes to balance.

Plain and simple, they want the fighter to be good both in and out of combat, they want a secondary reason for the fighter to exist.

I personally enjoy the fact that the fighter is such a simple class and doesn't require such thought investment in what all you can do both in and out of combat, but there are those who feel every class needs to be equal in what they contribute both in and out of combat, otherwise they cannot role play properly.

And I will preach the same song I have preached in every 'balance at all costs' thread. If you want it to balance, then play a different edition, rather than telling us fans of PFRPG that we're wrong for liking things the way they are.

Man it's like a congealed mass of all the fallacious arguments everyone's made over this thread's entire lifespan!

That was kinda the point, I really wanted to bring up Rangers because the thread turned into Rangers vs. Fighters for a minute there, but I couldn't find a way to do it without constructing a wall of text that would just get skipped over.

I'm not sure you know what fallacious means. Unless your point was to make a lot of arguments that are false.

I like it. Remember at low levels, be smart enough to assess if the party has got this or not. You have 0 level spells that can be useful to everyone else. Or just deal a d3 damage if nothing else. The aid another is a good idea.

If the party has 'got this' without much help from you, don't blow your spells. Maybe some UMD and a wand of cure light wounds. Or shield? Perhaps you can be Dr. Feelgood and move around, passing out potions. Oooo...that quickling is hard to hit...hey fighter, I hand you this potion of true strike...grab that bugger! Just help out, and then, when something real bad happens, something the martials are having trouble with, that's when you roll up your sleeves and start chucking your spells.

But honestly, I think the biggest point that I would point to, is that you don't have to cast, just cause you can.

1. Yes, just like the Gifted Adept magic trait getting you more missiles a level early if you used it for Magic Missile (as an example).

2. It's what it says, not in addition to.

3. Yes, although it still can't see invisible / ethereal / hidden things. And remember that psicrystals aren't exactly smart. Base intelligence is only 6. They should be treated as such - my GM roleplayed my psicrystal, it followed my directions, but the explanation of things it saw was tempered by its personality and intelligence.

4. They can, but they do not have weapon finesse, so they're not exactly very good at it. This is better as use to deliver touch powers to allies or prone targets rather than enemies in combat.

Alright, thank you Jeremy. I appreciate it. We have had, as a group a lot of debates about familiars and animal companions and what their skills and stuff are, and it's nice to know I have an answer from you on this.

The psicrystals, I see them as like the spheres from portal, one minded and that makes them a bit crazy. I've got a Heroic Psicrystal I settled on, and it makes me think of the Green Sphere from Portal 2 if you have any idea what that is.

Also thanks for the clarification, my brain keeps bleeding rules over from familiars and small animals all getting weapon finesse to make me think that they get it too, but it doesn't say, then I end up arguing with myself.

Anyway, thanks for all the answers!

Okay, just making sure I got this, everyone is nervous about psionics because of their reputation and I want to make sure I understand everything.

Psigifted trait - took this for Astral construct, means I am 1 manifester level higher when I use this power. So I'm taking that to mean, it always has 1 extra round duration as duration is 1 rd/level and say at 2nd level, I could spend 3 PP to make this a second level Astral Construct, 4th level, 5PP for a 3rd level construct, so on.

Psicrystals - okay description in the feats section under Psycrystal Affinity says they have 4 ranks in perception and stealth. Now is this 4 ranks beyond what the creature entry at the back of the book shows or is that amount included in those numbers where it says Perception +6 and Stealth +14. (I'm guessing the normal bonus to Stealth of +8 based on size) I think that is what it is saying, instead of ANOTHER +4 on those skills.

Also about Sighted - this basically states it is immune to darkness, as if it has like blindsense or something, and immune to silence too. Basically it can ALWAYS see and ALWAYS hear what's going on within 40 ft of itself for the sight anyway.

I asked earlier if they have an attack, the reason being they eventually can deliver touch powers for the PC. Do they have weapon finesse as well so they use their dex for touch attacks? (otherwise this is basically meaningless with their strength of 1)

Thanks again. I think I have the grasp on this stuff, they just want like a second opinion on them. like I said, makes it hard because of the bad reputation they have.

Thedmstrikes wrote:

Psionics played not as another magic system is a great way to stump your players who have "been there, done that". Especially if the psionic characters/creatures/bad guys are supported by some magic slinging back ups. It makes the PCs a step back and ask, "what just happened?"

It's also a great way go make people believe that psionics are overpowered.

I find that is probably true with basically anything, unless it is the norm. I used to throw weird things at the PC's all the time, change the rules for the standard Bestiary examples, well for 'boss' or 'named' monsters. Keeps them on their toes. One of those things where Knowledge:Local to hear the stories about the strange 3 armed ogre in the hills west of time will give more information to the characters than a Knowledge:Nature roll ever would. I consider most of the knowledge skills to be the generalizations for the monsters. Legends and stories fill in the weird stuff on creatures.

I think if you do something like that part of the time, they probably wouldn't feel that psionics are OP. They would just think those are crazy strange monsters. And nothing more.

Think I need to start having the weird stuff again. I've fallen off of it a bit.

My order now says pending, that mean it is coming soon? Cause I would have sworn it said backorder previously...

houser2112 wrote:

Jorshamo wrote:

Psicrystal Affinity can serve a similar purpose, but that's restricted to level 3 manifesters or higher.

You're thinking of Psicrystal Containment.

Yup, you're right. Don't know how I missed that.

And yes, a shaper could select any powers from the Psion/Wilder list, and the Shaper Discipline list. Just speaking for myself, Shaper is probably my favorite discipline, for a number of reasons. Astral Construct, which is the Psionic equivalent of Summon Monster ##, ectoplasmic creation (All the poison you could want, as well as anything else made of organic material, Summon's Call, which boost not only the duration, and the power, of your constructs, and bonus class skills all keyed on Cha (Bluff, Disguise, and UMD), with the first 2 being great for a sneaky Psion who does want other to know they're psionic, and the other being the best skill in the game.

Woah...wait...ectoplasmic creation can produce poisons? Organic ones anyway?

What all can you use it for? Potentially food?

Thanks guys, this is helping a lot.

Real quick, it seems obvious but say a Shaper can use the powers on the Shaper list, and also the Psion/Wilder list correct? Kinda has to be or you get no powers hardly at all.

(Actually think I will change to Shaper...the extra feats are nice, but seem to be intended for you to get powers in other disciplines...)

Actually that's what I'm going to do, taking psicrystal affinity and Advanced Constructs...taking Astral Construct too.

The idea of making a small army of worker constructs to run around, carry my stuff, clear the rubble...it appeals to me.

Oh boy, new question. I think the answer is yes, but...

As a generalist Psion, I can pick any of the powers on the Psion/Wilder list, AND can pick any power on any of the Psion Discipline Powers lists up to my alloted powers known?

I.E. I can choose say, Inertial Armor from the Psion/Wilder list, then Corrosive Aura from the Egoist Discipline Powers and Control Object from the Kineticist Discipline Powers since I can know 3 powers at 1st level...right?

ShadeOfRed wrote:

Jorshamo wrote:

Answers to questions...

Thank you so much. New question. A lot of powers state 'your active energy type' to determine their effects. I can't find where/how a character sets this? Thanks!!!

EDIT: Nevermind...found it...page 131 "Energy Powers" derp. Thanks!

It (and many other things) are also detailed in the Glossary on page 450-451

:)

Thanks Jeremy...wonderful book you got here by the way. I ordered the bundle, still waiting on the hard copy but working off the PDF for now. I'm really digging it. Makes me honestly want to give up the other classes totally. Great job and thanks! The rest of my group seem to be getting interested as well. Looks like my character will be the first Psionic character we have ever had and kind of a test bed.

Anyway...thanks again, it's my new favorite book. :)

Answers to questions...

Thank you so much. New question. A lot of powers state 'your active energy type' to determine their effects. I can't find where/how a character sets this? Thanks!!!

EDIT: Nevermind...found it...page 131 "Energy Powers" derp. Thanks!

Could use some help. One of my players wants to run an adventure path and is cool with me making a psionic character. So I'm making a generalist psion...some questions that came up for me.

Psicrystals - Do psicrystals have any ability to make a physical attack?
Psicrystal Affinity is okay to take for my Bonus Feat correct?

Power Points - I've got an Elan, Psion, Int 19. I get +2 base points, +2 high int, +1 favored class, +2 Psionic Talent. So 7 at 1st level right?

Feats - Psionic Body - Okay, I have Psicrystal Affinity, Psionic Talent (racial feat?), Psionic Body. Now does that give me 6 hp or do I not count Psionic Talent and get 4? (trying to decide what to take for my 1st level feat...advice on that would be welcome too)

If I take Psionic Talent again...do I get +2 and +3 = 5 or is it just +2 +1 = 3?

I may have more but that's my questions for now. Thanks for any help!

Yeah James...I feel you did the right thing too. Good luck, and just let them know that maybe you can go back to those characters they have now, but you just need some time keeping things balanced so you don't TPK them and such. Ask them to give you time to get a feel for it. Because honestly...there are big differences even in monsters of the same CR. My group of 5 took on and killed a black dragon of CR 9 at 5th level. At 6th level they took on a CR9 vampire. As a matter of fact the one straight out of the Bestiary. Almost TPK. Had a Deus Ex Machina on that. Worked out fine. They had been noticing someone following them for sometime. They just helped out after they were all down.

Anyway...both CR9...the vampire was at level 6 but they couldn't handle a creature that can dominate and turn invisible. A dragon was a challenge but doable. Use my story as an example if you like.

Game Master Scotty is giving you good advice. Simple things like max HP and tossing that advanced template on can make a big difference in keeping it challenging.

ShadeOfRed wrote:

Ravingdork wrote:

This official article on poisons in Pathfinder might help you to understand the poison rules better. (You are far form the first person to ask questions like these.)

In short though, no, the target of the drow poison gets a save versus EACH attack, the very moment he is attacked.

EDIT: Be sure to read the posts/comments below the blog as the game developers answer several more questions there.

Okay I've been doing it that way, but does the DC keep climbing each time?

EDIT: You know what...I'll just read it. Sorry.
:)

For each active dose, yes, the DC keeps climbing by +2. However, a single save vs. drow poison is enough to negate. Also, making the initial save is always enough to avoid being affected at all.

Makes me wonder why people lament the drow and their poison if the DC is only 13. Not much really, and pretty inneffective later on. The novels portray it in a different manner, and I think this is why my brain was having trouble with it. (it's really the only poison that is prolific in the fictions, I'm talking about forgotten realms of course) Guess I can always say that a more powerful dose is created for use against higher level characters. My brain just thinks that the poison is still in your veins so it should stack whether you saved or not.

Might just design a houserule. Or like I said, just say they made stronger doses.

This official article on poisons in Pathfinder might help you to understand the poison rules better. (You are far form the first person to ask questions like these.)

In short though, no, the target of the drow poison gets a save versus EACH attack, the very moment he is attacked.

EDIT: Be sure to read the posts/comments below the blog as the game developers answer several more questions there.

Okay I've been doing it that way, but does the DC keep climbing each time?

EDIT: You know what...I'll just read it. Sorry.
:)

Lots going on here...hmm...here is 2 copper.

I think it all boils down to one old saying, I have no idea who said it first...but it's been said a lot.

"Sometimes, it's a necessary evil."

As in...yeah it's kind of evil to kill a sentient being, regardless what it is...but if it's justifiable in the manner of, if I don't stop these orcs, much more evil will occur. I will accept this evil I must due upon my soul so that other souls will not have evil done upon them.

Kind of like helping someone get healthy is a good act, even evil clerics have to heal people sometimes, for the greater evil and all.

Killing is evil, but the circumstance dictates if it is a necessary evil or is straight up evil.

In this case, it was not necessarily, necessary. So I would say it was evil.

However if you are Neutral that means that you do some good and some evil acts. This however does not mean that you need to discuss an alignment change everytime one of these happening.

Also alignment allows for interpretations. You can be Lawful Good, as long as you stay away from evil acts and have a code you follow. That code does not necessarily mean that you also have to include all laws from every city you pass through. (look at samurai, or monks even)

In my opinion the only time someone should start talking about if someone needs to have an alignment change, is in the case of premeditated good or evil. As in they plan out an action ahead of time that is not a 'necessary' good or a 'necessary' evil.

*clink clink*

Okay, I'm just trying to make sure I understand how poisons work...let me see if I got this right.

PC faces off with 5 drow foes.
They fire their hand crossbows with drow sleep poison tipped darts.
Now if one hits, it is Fort DC 13
Two is Fort DC 15
Three is Fort DC 17
Four is Fort DC 19
Five is Fort DC 21
There is only one saving throw made regardless of the number of hits.

First question, does the PC make his saving throw after being hit...or does he wait for the one minute to pass first? (this would mean that the DC would continue to increase as the PC takes more poison darts right?) Or do they take their saving throw at their next action? Drow sleep poison has a Frequency of 1/minute for 2 minutes. Initially unconsciousness for 1 minute, secondary unconsciousness for 2d4 hours.

We'll say for now that he takes it at the 1 minute mark, 10 rounds later. Now the PC makes that saving throw at the 1 minute mark and battle continues. Now I think that means it is gone, since it is Cure: 1 save...or am I wrong about that?

He gets hit with 3 darts originally. Assuming it is cured with the first save, he gets hit with a new wave of 3 darts. Does this mean the save DC is 17 again...or DC 23 due to the previous 3 darts stacking?

I apologize, but it feels complicated and want to make sure I understand it all. Thank you for any help!

the +2 stat ioun stones you're talking about only stack with themselves (not with a belt/headband), and are far more expensive...

to add +6 to all stats that way would cost:
24,000g/stone x3 stones/stat= 72,000g/stat x6 stats= 432,000g
to get that same bonus from a belt and a headband would only total 288,000g, so those 18 ioun stones would be a pretty bad investment (unless there's a belt and a headband that you need so bad you're willing to pay an extra 144,000g for them, i guess).

I think the point is to think about a character concept that has gone nuts with Ioun Stones to the point of providing themselves full cover with all of them. :)

I'm enjoying all of this. My players don't like dungeon crawls even at low levels.

They recently battled a small army of kobolds at 5th level. I really like using masses of weaker enemies to make the players get nervous then pull of an 'epic' battle and victory.

A 5th level Fighter getting to cleave through 3 or 4 kobolds makes them feel awesome.

A 5th level sorc using that sleep spell to drop a group or to burning hands a pack that charge at him...feels awesome.

So on and so forth. It's one of the things I did actually like about 4th edition...1 hp minions backed by a few tough guys. They make you feel awesome. Through a 6th level sorc and 2 6th level fighters at the party after they pushed through the pack of rabble. It ended up being pretty tough for them, and they felt they came out by the skin of their teeth. Then the black dragon made them retreat, prepare and take it on during the next session. It was pretty epic for that too.

Anyway, letting them use their Hackmaster +12 on mooks is fun. I plan to have them do something like that soon in their hometown. Probably a small invasion and they end up having to hold a flank all by their lonesome.

Edit: My point is, some of this stuff works really well at low levels too!

ShadeOfRed wrote:

Even Microsoft did this with their XBox 360 and the Red Rind Of Death and Microsoft isn't exactly the most customer friendly company in the world. (One of the worst in my, and others I know, experience) (also look at how they decided to do the XBox One, then backpedaled and changed it to what the customers wanted, just saying they fixed it)

I'm not saying a GM can't handle this, they can, but if it's broken, they should take some time to have someone fix it with errata. As a GM I would appreciate it when playing with new players, having to spend time with them disrupting the game and arguing until it is decided they don't fit. It's not fair to the other players at the table to have to deal with stuff like this that can, RAW, be 'abused'.

You don't seem to be listening much do you?

That's just an insult and unneccesary. But I will address it anyway. I am listening. I have made a pretty clear point, even though you edited it out, that I would like to see this and things like this fixed, out of customer service. I'm a customer and spend quite a bit of money on this. I expect a bit of good treatment because...

You point out that the game is breakable. That's correct. That is the unavoidable price of allowing player choice.

I didn't state it was breakable...what I was trying to say is that, Rules As Written, it is broken.

Although the game IS breakable, that happens when people don't follow RAW in 99% of the cases. That or OOC knowledge of an adventure ahead of playing it. So I apologize that I wasn't clear enough.

There is simply no practical way to publish a fix for every possible rules abuse. (and believe it or not, sno-cone wish machine isn't the big number one most wanted that you seem to think it is.)

Absolutely disagree with this. What I feel isn't practical is someone paying for this product, receiving it, finding there are broken parts to it and nothing being done. That is an unpractical means to treating customer service. And I am also aware of the sno-cone wish machine being not the biggest thing. There are many others. But if something as easily fixed as someone typing a simple paragraph stating some solution, (SLA don't copy onto the simulacrum or what have you) as being unpractical, for something this obviously broken, just so I, the customer, don't have to deal with it or other obviously broken things in the time I have to play this game, even if it is only one time ever...I feel that is an unreasonable statement and makes it sound like you think I should not have the right to ask for this from someone SELLING the product to me. I'm the customer, 5 minutes to type a paragraph is not unpractical or unreasonable, and would be appreciated by me and many others. Customer service friend, that's what I'm talking about. This problem and many others.

The game is breakable for players determined to break it. That's the plain fact Jack. The only way to "fix" it to your satisfaction is to remove the primary cause, i.e. the expansion of player choices and revert this game back to either the hard and fixed choices of First Edition, or the homogenised approach of Fourth Edition. If that's what you want, those games and others like them ARE OUT THERE. But the bulk of the folks playing here don't see this as a problem that merits throwing out the baby with the bathwater.

Again, I don't appreciate your hostility...but anyway.

Has nothing to do with player choices...also not what I said at all. Read what I wrote please and don't extrapolate it into something else. I never said what you are saying, if I wanted to go to something else I would have already. And honestly...clearing up things that Rules As Written don't work like they should or as Rules As Intended is not throwing the baby out with the bathwater as you say.

It's not unreasonable for someone clarify or fix issues with their product. It's customer service. Period.

My thoughts for considering whether a class is OP in combat go like this...

1. Are the able to, effectively remove or take out or make useless at least one enemy a round, every round, in an actual 4 encounter adventuring day.
Yes/No
2. How does this compare to the other members of the party?
Much Better/Much Worse
3. Are they able to take out or make useless MORE than 1 enemy a round?

4. How does that compare to the other members of the party?

5. Extrapolate, will this be the case in 5 levels...in 10 levels...in 15 levels? (sometimes a class shines a lot for a few levels, alchemists definetely can in the early levels and have a few moments in later levels where they pull off a wonder or two)

6. Finally...are they more effective out of battle than other classes too? (some classes are pretty darn amazing in combat, because they can't do much else outside of it...it's their time to shine for a few levels otherwise...let them have it...it will be someone elses after a bit...in a different situation)

I guess I let them shine, unless they are outshining everyone always. Then I look at it because there is probably a rule being used wrong or something.

Rynjin wrote:

LazarX wrote:

DrDeth wrote:

Sure. But this is often touted as why Pathfinder is broken. Altho I doubt if it sees much IRL table-top use, fixing it will help out the community.

The "community" needs to learn that it can help itself.

It can. No reasonable GM will allow it.

That doesn't change the fact that, by RAW, it is a possible outcome.

If it requires houseruling to fix, obviously it was broken.

Why not push for an official fix, eh? It won't hurt your game one way or another, and will help the game as a whole. Why gripe about it except to hear the sound of your own typing?

If we asked Paizo for an "official fix" for every possible spell, archetype, game effect that could possibly break a game, then we'd be asking for a FAQ the size of the Encyclopedia Britannica. There have been breakable things in the game since First Edition. However it was Third Edition with it's emphasis on "builds" and builder tools to serve it which opened up the floodgates. to the kind of nonsese we see here. The answer is not to try to build an incomprehensible list of fixes for excesses, it's for GM's to develop the common sense and discipline to simply say "NO!" to obvious crack monkey moves.

No disrespect to anyone, Paizo, or anyone else on this board. But if you design and release a product you should 'fix' the issues.

Even Microsoft did this with their XBox 360 and the Red Rind Of Death and Microsoft isn't exactly the most customer friendly company in the world. (One of the worst in my, and others I know, experience) (also look at how they decided to do the XBox One, then backpedaled and changed it to what the customers wanted, just saying they fixed it)

I'm not saying a GM can't handle this, they can, but if it's broken, they should take some time to have someone fix it with errata. As a GM I would appreciate it when playing with new players, having to spend time with them disrupting the game and arguing until it is decided they don't fit. It's not fair to the other players at the table to have to deal with stuff like this that can, RAW, be 'abused'.

I would personally shut this stuff down myself. But it would be nice, considering the pretty large investment I have made in books and materials from Paizo to try to be a good GM, that they would save ME the trouble of dealing with these issues.

A good GM can take care of this, I'm good enough to take care of it as a GM too, but as a CUSTOMER I'd like for it to be taken care of so I don't have to.

. for interest

OTOH...you know the alignment rules in Pathfinder are pretty...non punishing. Unless you are a Paladin/Anti-Paladin...

Regardless of your alignment you can do whatever you want...and at worse, you alignment on your character sheet shifts...

I don't know...I hate alignment, or anything that goes beyond Good/Evil. (This is considering that I feel a lot of things people would bellow and yell about being Good or Evil I honestly see as more Neutral...but whatever)

Ick...I hate alignment changing items, because there is nothing that forces you to keep acting like whatever alignment you changed into.

And thinking more about it I would say an outsider, who are basically defined by their alignment...if somehow had an alignment shift, would change what it is. A Balor would become a Planetar or whatever. Something like that to match the new alignment.

FORCING ANYTHING TO BECOME SOMETHING IT ISN'T IS EVIL. CHANGING ALIGNMENT IS EVIL.

... So the magic item was used for the first time tonight against a demon that rolled really bad and fell under the effect, it then started begging for death.

The group excluding myself and the followers I'd gathered killed him after about 15 minutes of bickering about it. My question is this, do you all consider this to be a good act?

Rules of Chivalry and history show that releasing someone from life if they are suffering was part of the Knights Code. You forcing an alignment change on the demon...to me that's more questionable than you showing mercy on it.

Using this item...it sounds like you are about 3 steps away from reenacting 1984: Golarion Style. Way worse than propaganda.

First of all I agree with everything, just dropping 2cp.

I have players that have trouble with playing casters because the reality of spells in pathfinder is that the are never good at in a fight. They are good to prepare for a fight, get out of a fight, make yourself impossible to fight, but not actually directly killing something.

Now...being able to throw fireballs from 400ft + 40ft/level distance and do so repeatedly can kill lots of things. Long before they get to you, especially at high levels. (Which is what a BBEG Wizard who isn't very original could do and pretty much win, especially with metamagics, and Greater Invisibility)

the examples I've seen on psionics and from what I've been reading on the OGC psionics is the opposite. it can deal massive amounts of damage but can't control reality to the extent arcane spells can.

Yep...and there are limits to what they can do, based on ML. Did everyone read the article about the Myths about Psionics?

In Magic the Gathering its like Red vs Blue, Red is so strong and fast, capable of many outright broken things, capable of using less resources for better effects, but blue is generally the most broken color because its ability to change the rules enables munchkinry. in situations where both are of equal resources, red can kill you while blue will do something infinite and return all your land remove your deck from the game and so on.

Man, I miss doing that stupid stuff.

I'm not a system master. But I'm a pretty darn good analyst, professionally and as a hobby. It's not OP...it's just different.

And any Psychologist or Psychiatrist worth the name will tell you that different means scary. And scary means overreact and go with Fight or Flight, or both.

Psionics are being run from cause they are scary and people haven't taken the time to understand or try them out. Psionics are being fought because it is a NEW kind of caster, joing the already godlike Arcane and Divine characters. But aren't as good really as either of them.

Rule #1...do the 4 encounters a day standard situation. It may mean the Psionics wins the day overwhelming in 1st encounter...maybe even a bit in 2nd encounter...but the Psionics PC stands and picks his nose for the last two really.

And I figured all this out just by reading this thread. Relax. Try it. See if it is overpowered. If it is post the problem on here and I betcha someone will let you know why someone is doing a 'Nono' and breaking the rules.

MOMS is weak, without flurry he's never going to hit much. Maneuver master struggles as well, as noted. Tettori can be good because he is able to grapple practically everything.

Depends. I have a PC playing a MOMS in my game. He keeps crane wing and Panther Style up. Combined with Mobility. He just runs around fast attacking every single AOO that comes at him...well 5 or 6 based on his Wis...and does pretty alright. It's pretty funny to watch actually. And all of those are at his highest BAB.

Deeper darkness is a 3rd level spell, so you'd need to be 14th level to select it with Quicken Spell-Like Ability.

Yeah I just realized I was doubling spell level and then halving player level...blah.

I'll probably just keep him as an NPC then.

First time trying to do this...can't see why the commoner Drow don't overthrow their weaker Noble leaders. Since they could easily be more powerful than the Nobles who have to take these feat taxes to get what they are presumably born with. :)

Oh well.

Okay...so like I thought, no way to salvage to remain somewhat useful, burning all those feats like that.

I guess I could get rid of Umbral and improved Umbral and spider step.

Then take Blind Fight, Improved Blind Fight at 7th and 9th...

Nope...never mind. You have to be 20th level to Quicken SLA Deeper Darkness if I'm reading it right.

Better way to do something with the Drow Noble SLA? Or are they useless and to feat intensive?

Yes. It's a monster feat called quicken spell like ability.

Ahh...right. Well Drow are monsters...right...

*looks left*
*looks right*

Yeah....

I would drop AT LEAST Spider step, as it REALLY suck and Umbral Scion and Improved Umbral Scion arent that good either. But the rest have their uses as casting darkness will allow you to get off sneak attack as long as your dm allows you to take feats that allow you to see in darkness even though they are normally for tieflings or fetchlings.

They have that silly morphing short sword item for Drow that gives you blind Fight...but bleh.

Is there a feat that lets you quicken an SLA?

Just for discussion's sake...if you took a Martial Character as a Drow, say a Ninja class to keep it simple, and from 1 - 13th level took all the Drow noble feats and spell like ability feats:

1st: Drow Nobility
3rd: Improved Drow Nobility
5th: Greater Drow Nobility
7th: Umbral Scion
9th: Improved Umbral Scion
11th: Spider Step
13th: Noble Spell Resistance

Could you make a viable character doing this as a Ninja without making yourself kind of useless at 13th level? (Yes I know, Rogue/Ninja is horrible, honestly this is for an NPC/possible PC at a later date if needed) What kind of build would you make? Keep in mind you have to take the prereq stats of Cha 13 and Wis 13. Spider Step could be moved to anywhere other than 1st level if that makes a difference.

Assume any gear with gp total of 180k or less.

If the ability is usable less than 5/day, you divide the uses per day by five and multiple that times the 1800 use-activated multiplier.

If it is an additional ability after the first, or a spell ability added to a weapon or armor (which normally don't provide spell-type powers), the cost is increased by 50%.

So instead of 2nd x 3rd x 1800 = 10,800,

you get 2nd x 3rd x (1800/5 (which is 360) x 1.5 (which is 540)) = 3240

Thank you very much. Sometimes the rules get pretty convoluted and I miss things. Thank you again!

I am pretty confused here...could use some help. I'm sure I'm just missing something probably...

Hurricane Quarterstaff - a +1/+1 quarterstaff, that once per day can cast gust of wind, DC 13 fort save negates. If you are a monk or ninja you can activate the gust of wind with a ki point.

It's full cost is 7,840gp.

Now a +1/+1 quarterstaff costs 4,000gp. Leaving 3,840gp left. Subtract masterwork to both ends, for the amount of 600gp, leave 3,240gp. How is this computed?

I'm getting 2nd level spell x 3rd level caster x 1,800gp = 10,800gp

In order to get 3,240 is 2nd level spell x 3rd level caster x 540gp...

I'm trying to make an item for one of my players and I can't figure out the formula. Is the one I show above the correct one for putting a spell on a weapon?

ShadeOfRed wrote:

Lemartes wrote:

You know I think that kind of solves the fighter right there. He is the feat master...so he should be able to ignore some prereqs. Not sure how to do it but I think that would really put the fighter in league with the barbarian...that and more skill points.

Im toying with giving the fighter the added benefit to get an extra combat feat EVERY level...and be able to add his levels in fighter to his BAB for determining what feats he can qualify for.

Maybe the same for rogue/ninja except talents every level. And some bonus feats. Probably something to do with feint. And sneak attack working on everything.

I know a guy who played a feat every level for fighter, I did not join, I'll tell u what he told me...

1) the fighter couldn't multiclass as the incentive to play straight fighter was too good.
2) the feats acceleration was semi wasted as things like BAB stopped whole chains dead in their tracks.
3) because of the 1 and 2 the fighter became a switch hitter faster but seemingly did not gain significant more damage. He did tell me that he felt that if he had made use of defensive feats like dodge, combat expertise, etc he would have been more durable but damage was largely the same.

IF his assessment was reasonably accurate, and I don't know myself, this adds good fun at low to mid levels but still fails horribly at upper levels as usual.

Totally see that. Why I added he can add his levels in fighter to his BAB when determining if hr qualifies for feats. I.E. he can qualify for feats that require a BAB of +6 at level 3. 3rd level fighter + 3 BAB. It doesnt always make sense I suppose if a feat affects iterative attacks...but he could qualify for everything by level 10. Also lets him use his level progression feats for something other than combat maybe.

Dunno...like i said im thinking of trying it out.

You know I think that kind of solves the fighter right there. He is the feat master...so he should be able to ignore some prereqs. Not sure how to do it but I think that would really put the fighter in league with the barbarian...that and more skill points.

Im toying with giving the fighter the added benefit to get an extra combat feat EVERY level...and be able to add his levels in fighter to his BAB for determining what feats he can qualify for.

Maybe the same for rogue/ninja except talents every level. And some bonus feats. Probably something to do with feint. And sneak attack working on everything.

Rynjin wrote:

Nathanael Love wrote:

If I don't allow him to select an option that exchanges ranger spells for feats he won't play a Ranger because it has too much spells for him. . .

To be clear, he's good with the Skirmisher archetype then?

And to be honest, your friend seems to be in the vast minority. Most people don't find the Ranger's spells to be too complex.

I'd agree with you personally. . . I find Rangers to have too few spells for what I like, but there's every kind of person and if I put a book on the table that didn't have a class without that kind of features I would never be able to run it and we'd use a previous edition that has normal Fighter in it instead.

I just don't get it.

Does anyone actually think that Paizo or any publishing company is just going to go, "You know that class we made in the Core Rulebook? The Fighter? You can't play him anymore. You have to play this NEW version of the Fighter. Everyone tear up your character sheets NOW!"

Don't call an improved Fighter class the Fighter. It would be called something else and Fighter would still exist. He could play it from now until the end of time and no one could FORCE HIM not to. A new option doesn't make the old one go away, it just gives a new option.

And Anecdotal Evidence is just that. Anecdotal. I've met lots of people who hate casters. Love to play martials. I've never met anyone, myself, that refuses to play anything but Fighters. Or Rangers or Paladins who basically been archetyped into Fighters.

Does that mean your point of view and complaint is invalid? Because it is meaningless to me. Doesn't affect me and won't affect this player of yours. CAUSE THE FIGHTER CLASS WOULD STILL EXIST. The new class called Fighter 2.0 would exist and he would never have to play it.

.

N. Jolly wrote:

Mind you I LOVE the Barbarian, and I consider it my fave T4 class, but I know even an Invulnerable Rager with Spell Sunder, Eater of Magic, and Greater Beast Totem can't stand up to a well prepared spellcaster.

AFAIK (e.g. since the last time I looked at it), no one in the AM BARBARIAN thread was capable of making a caster that could beat the barbarian.

I can't believe that, interesting.

For the rest of martials, it's the complete opposite.

I guess there is always an exception.

Honestly, in my opinion, the GM is far more relevant than the tier of the class when it comes to classes.

Since you are not playing against a computer but with other people who will adjust to what you do regardless of what you pick.

A much more serious problem is imbalance within the party than with some arbitrary 'tier system'. The latter can be compensated by adjusting encounters, but the former has (in my experience) been a much greater source of strife.

I'm going to disagree due to the large number of GM's that run printed adventures, adventure paths and PFS games.

These rarely to never allow for things to be as you say, and rarely or ever are changed to allow that.