Marhkus, IIRC of the three classes of ToB i think one was completely without SU/SLA and one had lie one option of six that was SU/SLA. The last was about as magical as a monk.
But im not fond of ToB. On the mechanics level it felt too rigid and strict, it had a system that fit casters better than martials. I think thats why they sometimws felt lie casters. Not in what they did but how they did it.
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I think I would have liked Path of War/Tome of Battle if there was a martial mana/stamina pool rather than the weird vancian fighting spells that they have.
I don't mind swordcraft Voodoo, weeaboo DBZ fighting, or 'might as well be magic' but Vancian Swordfighting just turned me off and feels weird. I subscribed to Path of War, but I'm not 100% on using it because it seems like a lot classes and other stuff when all I really need is a feat that gives a stamina pool that refills with a 5 min rest and for the maneuvers/stances to be combat feats that use the pool. I didn't need new classes and explainations of initiator levels and a whole system of stuff that only really results in playing 4th edition per encounter powers.
The problem with a stamina pool is (presumably) that they already did that for their Psionics, and they didn't want too much overlap, to make the psionics still mechanically distinct.
Martials, in my mind, would be better represented with a dice pool, which regenerates at the end of each round. These could be done to add maneuvers to regular attacks. Essentially, the dice would be rolled after a maneuver is made, whether it was successful or not, and if it beats a target number (determined by how powerful the effect was) the die regenerates at the end of the round. If it fails, you lose that die, for the rest of the fight (until you take a 5-10 minute rest). Or alternatively it goes down one die-size. As you level up, your Die size increases, you you can more reliably pull off more difficult stunts. So there's some risk, but it's a different playstyle from casting, that isn't quite as simple as the "full attack for maximum DPR" thing 3.x has going. Rogues would have something similar, but for skill-tricks.
But I've gone on enough of a tangent on how I would do things. I suppose if there is anything to get out of this, it would be my idea for martials, which I think could work within a 3.x chasis, had I the time or energy to devote to developing such a thing.
Also, on the swordcasters thing, maybe it's just that I've played various point-buy fantasy games over the years, but I'm not buying it. Is it that the moment that a martial class gets something remotely interesting besides "I hit it" that it suddenly becomes practically a spell and thus a 'Swordcaster'? Because I don't want to play in a system where that is so.
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ToB is all about names.
IF instead of Diamond Sapphire Strike you just called it 'Paramount Blow' or something equally mundane, it would have sailed under the fluff cloud.
90%+ of the TOB options are just really well written feats. Hitting something for 100 points of damage as a standard action is something a level 17 fighter should be able to do without being a Frenzied Berserker ubercharger build. A Warblade can do that.
Adding in the mystical/monkish aspect of things to TWO of the disciplines was fine, too. It's good for fighting to get a little mystic about them.
But 'sword casters'? What? There's nothing in the Tome that even remotely compares to the flexibility of magic. There's nothing as good as TELEKINESIS, or TELEPORT. And that's at 17th level. You can't make wards, summon effective monsters (o look, my mystic martial artist can summon up a no-damage flanking buddy! woot), make real illusions, charm or enchant people, or launch really long range attacks.
IT's got nothing in the way of 'casting'. It's got extra things for a martial guy to do in a fight. Pretty much nothing helped at all in downtime.
Well, maybe the warblade being able to change his spec feat weapon at the beginning of the day. From 2h sword to UA for the king's ball...
People who don't like the Tome seriously have never played real melee or real casters, and weighed the two. Tome martials still don't compare to casters...but they are much more fun to play then rote martials.
===Aelryinth
Marhkus, IIRC of the three classes of ToB i think one was completely without SU/SLA and one had lie one option of six that was SU/SLA. The last was about as magical as a monk.
But im not fond of ToB. On the mechanics level it felt too rigid and strict, it had a system that fit casters better than martials. I think thats why they sometimws felt lie casters. Not in what they did but how they did it.
The martial strikes system was actually testing out the system for 4E. There are many similarities.
That's why you're seeing a comparison with casters. To make something more powerful, but still limit it AND make it work 'forever' is a delicate balancing act.
One of the suggestions the Tome puts forth is running sorcerers as martials, using spells for manuvers, with the Swordsage regen system. It's actually not a bad idea.
==Aelryinth
But im not fond of ToB. On the mechanics level it felt too rigid and strict, it had a system that fit casters better than martials. I think thats why they sometimes felt like casters. Not in what they did but how they did it.
This^^
Though I think what they did was still pretty jank.
I use zen principles for archery. ONe Arrow feat: "Take a full attack action and give up all attacks for the round. You may take a single shot with your missile weapon. You gain a +5 To Hit on that shot for every attack past the first you gave up. This attack cannot be combined with Deadly Aim."
At level 10, with Multishot and Rapidfire, you can give up 3 attacks to gain +15 to hit with one shot. You WILL hit the target, if you've got stuff that ignores concealment.
Likewise, feats that punch single strikes through magical defenses are around. Pierce Magical Protection and Pierce Magical Concealment from 3.5 were great feats, and solidly useful!
==Aelryinth
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For now Mythic does that. Mythic helps place martials where I envision some of them should be.
For me this seems to be the best approach. Mythic is optional and doesn't make blanket changes to the system. I really think modular design is the way of the future. Even with the fact that modular design has not been completely actualized yet.
I think I would have liked Path of War/Tome of Battle if there was a martial mana/stamina pool rather than the weird vancian fighting spells that they have.
I don't mind swordcraft Voodoo, weeaboo DBZ fighting, or 'might as well be magic' but Vancian Swordfighting just turned me off and feels weird. I subscribed to Path of War, but I'm not 100% on using it because it seems like a lot classes and other stuff when all I really need is a feat that gives a stamina pool that refills with a 5 min rest and for the maneuvers/stances to be combat feats that use the pool. I didn't need new classes and explainations of initiator levels and a whole system of stuff that only really results in playing 4th edition per encounter powers.
The problem with a stamina pool is (presumably) that they already did that for their Psionics, and they didn't want too much overlap, to make the psionics still mechanically distinct.
** spoiler omitted **...
I'll respond with a post I made in another thread.
""I came across a product that had a class that was pretty much a wizard clone that could cast infinite spells but could only prepare one spell at a time. At first preparing a spell cost a full round action but as they leveled their lower level spells became reduced in cost, standard action to move action to swift actions but at high levels their best spells were full actions to prepare followed by standard actions.
Now I would never allow this at my table because some arcane spells are a problem no matter how long it takes to prepare, but if they weren't this would be an insanely interesting way to work out vancian casting without the whole 10 min workday. ""
Basically if spells were not broken or always had a definite cost a system like this would make an 'All Day' Wizard while still keeping in Vancian flavor but putting a hard limit on magic. In the product the only way this isn't too bonkers is that the mage only gains one spell known each level and recording spells from another spellbook has a monetary cost.
In response to the the discussion of stamina pools, I came across another product that essentially did what I described but with way fewer frills (and complications) than Path of War. If the scope of it were bigger I'd pass over Path of War in a heartbeat but it's a small obscure product without much content. In a sense I saw what Martial Adept mechanics could have been and it did not feel like psionics. After reading ToB and PoW back to back I feel like Path of War is like it is to stay closer to ToB in core mechanics than to be distinct from psionics.
I'll respond with a post I made in another thread.
""I came across a product that had a class that was pretty much a wizard clone that could cast infinite spells but could only prepare one spell at a time. At first preparing a spell cost a full round action but as they leveled their lower level spells became reduced in cost, standard action to move action to swift actions but at high levels their best spells were full actions to prepare followed by standard actions.
Now I would never allow this at my table because some arcane spells are a problem no matter how long it takes to prepare, but if they weren't this would be an insanely interesting way to work out vancian casting without the whole 10 min workday. ""
Basically if spells were not broken or always had a definite cost a system like this would make an 'All Day' Wizard while still keeping in Vancian flavor but putting a hard limit on magic. In the product the only way this isn't too bonkers is that the mage only gains one spell known each level and recording spells from another spellbook has a monetary cost.
That's the issue for me, it would basically require rewriting all the spells, with this magic system in mind. And if I'm doing that, I might as well write up a whole new system, to get rid of my issues with d20. And I'm both too busy and too lazy (and also, just not a good enough game designer) to do that.
That's why you're seeing a comparison with casters. To make something more powerful, but still limit it AND make it work 'forever' is a delicate balancing act.
I'm all for limiting their power. Now, ToB deals mostly in combat options and I think martials are already "okay" in combat - my main gripe with martials is their lack of power over plot and world. But still. There are other ways to limit them.
Looking at the warblade right now, they're pretty much vancian fighters. They have a number of prepared special moves and expend them, then they rest to reprepare them (though only for five minutes). I mean, what they do isn't too magical for me, not at all, but the whole system of consciously preparing, then "spending" the moves - IMO, that fits for a caster, alchemist or similar character. Having "initiator levels" that match caster levels, and separating the maneuvers into 9 maneuver levels further reinforces the mechanical similarities. One can say that that's just mechanics and it's the fluff that determines whether they're martial or not, and to some degree I agree, but mechanics and thematics must go together or many players will feel some dissonance.
For combat methods, I'd much rather the options where limited based on being in the right circumstance, and then giving them options to place themselves in those circumstances.
Perhaps a simple Focus mechanic, that you expend to do any maneuver you know, and regain it by spending a move action to refocus.
Perhaps a simple Flow mechanic, that you gain a point of whenever you hit someone and lose if you don't attack, and you can spend to make any special move you know.
Perhaps tie those together.
For a simple example, consider if a class had mechanics like this:
Focus: You can expend your focus to get +2 to a single attack roll or saving throw. Certain feats require you to expend your focus to use them. You only ever have one focus max; it's not a pool. You regain focus by spending a move action to refocus.
Flow: You can spend one flow point to get +1 to a damage roll. Certain feats require you to spend flow points to gain their benefits. Any time you hit an enemy, you gain a flow point, and any time you miss an enemy, you lose a flow point. If you spend a full round without hitting anyone, you lose all your flow.
Then have feats or abilities similar (or identical) to some ToB maneuvers:
Ruby Nightmare Blade
By intently analyzing your foe’s stance and moves, you find the precise spot that you must strike to end the fight with a decisive blow.
Prerequisites: Sense Motive 3 ranks, BaB +3
Benefit: Using this feat is a standard action, and costs 3 flow points. When you use this feat, make a sense motive check (DC equals targets CMD). You then make a single melee attack against your target. This attack is also made as part of this maneuver. If your Concentration check succeeds, this melee attack deals double normal melee damage. If your check fails, your attack is made with a –2 penalty and deals only normal melee damage.
Quicksilver Motion
With a burst of energy, you move forward to press an attack, draw an item from your backpack, or take some other move action.
Prerequisites: BaB +9, Dexterity 13+
Benefit: This feat requires a swift action to initiate and requires you to expend your focus. You can take a free move action after you initiate this maneuver.
Dazing Strike
The proper application of force to just the right part of a foe’s anatomy allows you to disrupt his actions.
Prerequisites: BAB +7, Power Attack
Benefit: Using this feat is a standard action and costs 3 flow. You make a single melee attack. If this attack hits, the target takes melee damage normally and must make a Fortitude save (DC 10 + your BaB) or be dazed for 1 round.
These are just examples - not meant as concrete suggestions of "this is what should be". As I said, I don't think martials really have an issue in combat (except rogue and monk, but that's not due to being martial but due to being bad) except being a bit boring.
And as another example, barbarian rage powers are a way to limit access to special abilities, especially those 1/rage. Now, rage cycling exists, but if it didn't you could put a lot of awesome in that. Heck, I think the barbarian HAS a lot of awesome there!
But if the barbarian had a list of "you can prepare 4 rage powers per day. During combat, you may spend a rage power to gain it's benefit. Each rage power has a listed rage power level that is used to calculate the saving throw DC against them" etc, the barbarian would feel much less like a martial, and more like a caster.
Has anyone looked at the Swormaster class by Dreadfox Games?
This is interesting. Anybody with experience in mythic care to chime in?I like what a martial class can do with Mythic Powers. Now that's a true martial hero is.
Casters for the most part are mythic already. Spells that bend reality is mythic compared to mere rogue or fighter.
I'd be curious to see what happens with Mythic fighter in group of casters with no mythic tiers.
We actually had our (15th level) party's conjurer sit out our group's mythic playtest, so (with the playtest, not the full mythic version, albeit) we did do the "mythic fighters plus nonmythic wizard" thing.
I'd say there were a few times the lack cost the wizard vs. what a mythic wizard would have been capable of, and having mythic power certainly did help the group's fighters, but overall I'm not sure the difference greatly altered the internal wizard/fighter relationship that had existed in the party before. Possessing mythic power did significantly alter how the group as a whole approached and fought encounters on a larger scale, but I think it made less individual difference to the arcanists (we also had a sorcerer who did participate and did not seem, at least to my perspective, to be handling super differently).
I would say that the largest difference Mythic made to the internal fighter/wizard dynamic was that the fighters ate up much less wizardly support to manage their positioning, mostly due to Fleet Charge. So it did help reassert a leading role in dealing damage and slaying foeswithout having to rely on (as) frequent handholding.
It is by no means a definitive experience though due to only playing with tiers 1-3 and the sharply limited selection of powers available in the playtest document. I'm not at all sure it would work out the same way with the full book or more tiers.
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As far as that absurd name goes, the only reason people complained that martial adepts were too "anime" was because they were stuck in the mindset that Japan was the first civilization that featured heroes who could do amazing things without magic. Heracles was able to kill the hydra by shooting its heads faster than it could grow new ones. Atalanta routinely won footraces using a method that is completely impossible. Lancelot was such a powerful swordsman that, even without a sword or armor, he could kill a heavily-armed and armored man by beating him with a stick. Saint George, with nothing to his name other than his sword, his horse and his own faith and conviction, killed dragons on a regular basis.
And Gilgamesh and Enkidu, as noted, were already swinging gigantic oversized swords a couple thousand years before Japanese even became a language. ;)
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i feel that any class that doesn't have a option for having a supernatural/spellcasting class feature/ability qualifies as a mundane class, or martial if thats the preferred term on these boards.
fighters, rogues, cavalier, gunslingers, barbarians, and the new ACG classes qualify as such (brawler, i think the other 2 are slayer and archivist?).
Cockatrice Strike - The fighter can punch an enemy so hard it turns to stone.
It's also a long enough feat chain where fighters are really the only class that can do it without that being the absolute core concept of the character.
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This feat is really relevant in a thread about how Pathfinder doesn't allow martials nice things:Cockatrice Strike - The fighter can punch an enemy so hard it turns to stone.
It's also a long enough feat chain where fighters are really the only class that can do it without that being the absolute core concept of the character.
Prerequisites: Improved Unarmed Strike, Gorgon’s Fist, Medusa’s Wrath, base attack bonus +14.
Benefit: As a full-round action, you can make a single unarmed strike against a dazed, flat-footed, paralyzed, staggered, stunned, or unconscious foe. If that attack is a critical hit, the target is petrified unless it succeeds on a Fortitude saving throw with a DC of 10 + 1/2 your character level + your Wisdom modifier. This is a supernatural polymorph effect.
Seriously, this feat is just awful. It makes the nerfed version of Crane Wing look like Natural Spell in comparison.
This feat is really relevant in a thread about how Pathfinder doesn't allow martials nice things:Cockatrice Strike - The fighter can punch an enemy so hard it turns to stone.
It's also a long enough feat chain where fighters are really the only class that can do it without that being the absolute core concept of the character.
Seriously, this feat is just awful. It makes the nerfed version of Crane Wing look like Natural Spell in comparison.Prerequisites: Improved Unarmed Strike, Gorgon’s Fist, Medusa’s Wrath, base attack bonus +14.
Benefit: As a full-round action, you can make a single unarmed strike against a dazed, flat-footed, paralyzed, staggered, stunned, or unconscious foe. If that attack is a critical hit, the target is petrified unless it succeeds on a Fortitude saving throw with a DC of 10 + 1/2 your character level + your Wisdom modifier. This is a supernatural polymorph effect.
I'm new so I just wanted clarification because that looks like an awesome feat to me...
Why is that terrible?
That's the issue for me, it would basically require rewriting all the spells, with this magic system in mind. And if I'm doing that, I might as well write up a whole new system, to get rid of my issues with d20. And I'm both too busy and too lazy (and also, just not a good enough game designer) to do that.I'll respond with a post I made in another thread.
""I came across a product that had a class that was pretty much a wizard clone that could cast infinite spells but could only prepare one spell at a time. At first preparing a spell cost a full round action but as they leveled their lower level spells became reduced in cost, standard action to move action to swift actions but at high levels their best spells were full actions to prepare followed by standard actions.
Now I would never allow this at my table because some arcane spells are a problem no matter how long it takes to prepare, but if they weren't this would be an insanely interesting way to work out vancian casting without the whole 10 min workday. ""
Basically if spells were not broken or always had a definite cost a system like this would make an 'All Day' Wizard while still keeping in Vancian flavor but putting a hard limit on magic. In the product the only way this isn't too bonkers is that the mage only gains one spell known each level and recording spells from another spellbook has a monetary cost.
Although it does bring up a point, why not use this system for new weaboo fighting stuff for martial characters where they can 'prepare' one technique at a time (getting into a stance/sheathing your sword for batoujutsu/bracing for impact/screaming while your hair glows) and have devastating effects. I'd totally make a spontaneous prepared maneuver system if I too did not have lazy/not good at game designing problems as well. I'm already working on a spell-less sorcerer and then I got busy.
I feel like people miss the point of pure martial, which is to be the underdog.. No fireballs or polymorphs, just a sword, gun or bow in your hand, and a quarter inch thick piece of steel on your back, and you're all that's inbetween the dragon and the small town. Barbarians spit on magic, fighters kill without it, Monks deflect it, and rogues just walk around it.
Heck even some rangers and paladins avoid it...
If you ask me.... i like the idea of "Screw magic, i'm grabbing an axe" and being the underdog
This feat is really relevant in a thread about how Pathfinder doesn't allow martials nice things:Cockatrice Strike - The fighter can punch an enemy so hard it turns to stone.
It's also a long enough feat chain where fighters are really the only class that can do it without that being the absolute core concept of the character.
Seriously, this feat is just awful. It makes the nerfed version of Crane Wing look like Natural Spell in comparison.Prerequisites: Improved Unarmed Strike, Gorgon’s Fist, Medusa’s Wrath, base attack bonus +14.
Benefit: As a full-round action, you can make a single unarmed strike against a dazed, flat-footed, paralyzed, staggered, stunned, or unconscious foe. If that attack is a critical hit, the target is petrified unless it succeeds on a Fortitude saving throw with a DC of 10 + 1/2 your character level + your Wisdom modifier. This is a supernatural polymorph effect.
I'm new so I just wanted clarification because that looks like an awesome feat to me...
Why is that terrible?
You burn the opportunity for a full-attack for the 5-10% chance that the target has to make a save that they probably pass on anything but a 1.
So a 1 in 400 chance of working assuming that you hit, at the cost of 3 or more attacks.
This feat is really relevant in a thread about how Pathfinder doesn't allow martials nice things:Cockatrice Strike - The fighter can punch an enemy so hard it turns to stone.
It's also a long enough feat chain where fighters are really the only class that can do it without that being the absolute core concept of the character.
Seriously, this feat is just awful. It makes the nerfed version of Crane Wing look like Natural Spell in comparison.Prerequisites: Improved Unarmed Strike, Gorgon’s Fist, Medusa’s Wrath, base attack bonus +14.
Benefit: As a full-round action, you can make a single unarmed strike against a dazed, flat-footed, paralyzed, staggered, stunned, or unconscious foe. If that attack is a critical hit, the target is petrified unless it succeeds on a Fortitude saving throw with a DC of 10 + 1/2 your character level + your Wisdom modifier. This is a supernatural polymorph effect.
I'm new so I just wanted clarification because that looks like an awesome feat to me...
Why is that terrible?
Mountain of Prerequisites and you can only get it at level 14 if you're a full BAB character. Petrify is a status effect that probably won't work on a great deal of monsters at that level AND the DC is extremely easy for monsters to pass. Furthermore it has a qualifying condition for it to occur as those conditions aren't exactly easy to set up.
DC at 14th level is 17+your Wisdom mod which won't be high. The Average Cr14 monster has a +17 to their Good Save and a +12 to their bad one thus making the odds of such a maneuver very poor.
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I feel like people miss the point of pure martial, which is to be the underdog.. No fireballs or polymorphs, just a sword, gun or bow in your hand, and a quarter inch thick piece of steel on your back, and you're all that's inbetween the dragon and the small town. Barbarians spit on magic, fighters kill without it, Monks deflect it, and rogues just walk around it.
Heck even some rangers and paladins avoid it...
If you ask me.... i like the idea of "Screw magic, i'm grabbing an axe" and being the underdog
Congrats, you have made a character that really gives very little to the party, as the casters completely trivialize everything you do!
Sure, you're the underdog- you're useless!| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
This feat is really relevant in a thread about how Pathfinder doesn't allow martials nice things:Cockatrice Strike - The fighter can punch an enemy so hard it turns to stone.
It's also a long enough feat chain where fighters are really the only class that can do it without that being the absolute core concept of the character.
Seriously, this feat is just awful. It makes the nerfed version of Crane Wing look like Natural Spell in comparison.Prerequisites: Improved Unarmed Strike, Gorgon’s Fist, Medusa’s Wrath, base attack bonus +14.
Benefit: As a full-round action, you can make a single unarmed strike against a dazed, flat-footed, paralyzed, staggered, stunned, or unconscious foe. If that attack is a critical hit, the target is petrified unless it succeeds on a Fortitude saving throw with a DC of 10 + 1/2 your character level + your Wisdom modifier. This is a supernatural polymorph effect.
I'm new so I just wanted clarification because that looks like an awesome feat to me...
Why is that terrible?
It's a full-round action to use, so you have to start nearly adjacent to the target. You also give up all your other attacks for the round. Then, they have to be affected by one of the stated conditions. Then you have to hit the target. But it also has to be a crit! Since the feat specifies you have to use an unarmed strike, that means at best you threaten a crit on a 19. Then the target gets a Fort save based on a stat that is far from your primary stat. So if you start out next to stunned, paralyzed, or so forth creature you can spend a full-round action to have a <10% chance of getting a save-or-die effect on the target. And you spent four feats on this.
Compare that to a sorcerer of the same level casting flesh to stone. It's medium range so it can be done from over 200 feet away. And it's a standard action. Assuming a Charisma modifier of +9 (easy to have by the level you can cast the spell) the DC is at least 25 (more with Spell Focus or Spell Perfection). At 14th level, the fighter with Cockatrice Strike needs a Wisdom modifier of +8 to match that.
I feel like people miss the point of pure martial, which is to be the underdog.. No fireballs or polymorphs, just a sword, gun or bow in your hand, and a quarter inch thick piece of steel on your back, and you're all that's inbetween the dragon and the small town. Barbarians spit on magic, fighters kill without it, Monks deflect it, and rogues just walk around it.
Heck even some rangers and paladins avoid it...
If you ask me.... i like the idea of "Screw magic, i'm grabbing an axe" and being the underdog
Depends on the martial this is not an underdog
This on the other hand is an underdog who over comes the odds and is what I want out of martials.
EDIT: Read Berserk. Totally worth it. Not all Japanese martials have weaboo fightan magic.
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Weeabo fightean magic.
Because apparently, anime fighting is wrong, and is unacceptable.
Enjoying anime makes you a Weeabo, and suspension of disbelief doesn't exist.
Weeabo fightean magic.
Because apparently, anime fighting is wrong, and is unacceptable.
Enjoying anime makes you a Weeabo, and suspension of disbelief doesn't exist.
It's not wrong, it just doesn't fit with the concept of a martial.
Even in the animes there rarely ever exist martials with weaboo fightan magic when casters exist. Normally martials with powers like that are casters or have magic gear. Only universes like DBZ, where ki is the only way to do things have a martials using fightan magic. Because it doesn't make a lot of sense to have fightan magic when you have ACTUAL MAGIC in the universe.
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not wrong, it just doesn't fit with the concept of a martial.
Even in the animes there rarely ever exist martials with weaboo fightan magic when casters exist. Normally martials with powers like that are casters or have magic gear. Only universes like DBZ, where ki is the only way to do things have a martials using fightan magic. Because it doesn't make a lot of sense to have fightan magic when you have ACTUAL MAGIC in the universe.
Ok, so fighters must be bound to the laws of the universe, at all times, even when they are supposed to be as powerful as a caster of the same level- their cr is the same.
They should either be labeled an npc class, or not be so tethered to reality...Or more tethered to reality, where one good swing/bullet will take out just about anyone of any level.
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i feel that any class that doesn't have a option for having a supernatural/spellcasting class feature/ability qualifies as a mundane class, or martial if thats the preferred term on these boards.
fighters, rogues, cavalier, gunslingers, barbarians, and the new ACG classes qualify as such (brawler, i think the other 2 are slayer and archivist?).
Cockatrice Strike - The fighter can punch an enemy so hard it turns to stone.
It's also a long enough feat chain where fighters are really the only class that can do it without that being the absolute core concept of the character.
I never said it was especially viable, but it does exist, which makes it an option. Making the fighter HAVE AN OPTION "for having a supernatural/spellcasting class feature/ability".
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I feel like people miss the point of pure martial, which is to be the underdog.. No fireballs or polymorphs, just a sword, gun or bow in your hand, and a quarter inch thick piece of steel on your back, and you're all that's in between the dragon and the small town. Barbarians spit on magic, fighters kill without it, Monks deflect it, and rogues just walk around it.
Heck even some rangers and paladins avoid it...
If you ask me.... i like the idea of "Screw magic, i'm grabbing an axe" and being the underdog
The thing is that being Batman is awesome but if you deal with him realistically without his unbalancing narrative power he'd be a dead smear really fast.
Mechanically a Fighter is superhuman at certain levels but his status as a martial class holds him back from actually doing good stuff.
For example, a player I had was a typical square jawed Fighter and faced off against a fearsome dragon. Bravely (because mechanically he has bravery) he leads it away because the wizard was sick that week and wasn't there and the rest of the party was kind of helpless against the dragon. And decides to fight the dragon one on one.
I tell him that the dragon follows him and flys towards him, "What do you do?"
The players says "I'm going to wait for him to land"
I said "he's not going to do that, he's more likely to just circle strafe you with spells and breath weapons."
He says "oh... well then I'm dead."
Now in the same situation with weeaboo fihting, the same fighter would have:
Thrown a rock at him!
Jumped in the sky and stab him in the face.
Use a grappling hook to 'climb' to the dragon.
Jumped off a roof and get him in a headlock.
done something more useful than dying because the wizard wasn't there.
That said the Wizard wouldn't have stood much of a chance on his own either but he would have some kind of chance. He could have turned invisible, cast black tentacles or something.
I'm not saying that martials should have magic. I'm just saying that by the time the fighter can fall off a cliff and survive I think he should also be able to chokehold a dragon.
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Ok, so fighters must be bound to the laws of the universe, at all times, even when they are supposed to be as powerful as a caster of the same level- their cr is the same.
They should either be labeled an npc class, or not be so tethered to reality...Or more tethered to reality, where one good swing/bullet will take out just about anyone of any level.
Quoted for absolute truth.
Another route would be to allow spellcasters to keep their world-shattering power, but have each spell negatively affect the caster in a proportional manner (as in Call of Cthulhu spellcasting).
The sad thing about Marthkus's "F--- Martials" campaign is that it doesn't really seem to be too far from Paizo's position. I'm not remembering any errata offhand that substantial weakened spellcasters, while there have been several examples of errata that f--- over martials, or even partial-casters using their non-casting abilities.
Has anyone looked at the Swormaster class by Dreadfox Games?
Hey actual suggestion missed during the useless fight over if ToB is horrible weeaboo trash or if it was a martial fix.
Can we get back to actual ideas, if you want to have a fight make a new thread called ToB amazing or horrible and then has at it.
Has anyone looked at the Swormaster class by Dreadfox Games?Hey actual suggestion missed during the useless fight over if ToB is horrible weeaboo trash or if it was a martial fix.
Can we get back to actual ideas, if you want to have a fight make a new thread called ToB amazing or horrible and then has at it.
Please, where can i find it?
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Here's how I've let Martials have Nice Things in my games:
--Small Changes--
All Maneuvers may be attempted without Provoking at +1 BaB. In addition, all Maneuvers can be used in place of an attack.
This should be a no brainer. Maneuvers are a Martial character's Options. In order to convince people to give up a Full Attack the alternatives better be damn shiny.
A high level fighter should be able to Reposition an enemy around to the side, Bull Rush them into a Flank with a quick shove (using their 5' adjust to follow), Disarm them, and stab them with their own sword, all as part of the same turn.
A high level Monk should be able to Grapple someone, Trip them with a leg sweep, Blind them with Dirty Trick and punch them in the face. Twice.
Looking at these attack strings at face value seems overpowered but in practice they aren't. Characters are giving up lots of damage for maneuver effects that are actually not as good as most debuff spells. These changes make Maneuvers meaningful options that significantly effect combat rather than things characters sometimes do when they can't full attack.
Reposition and Bull Rush are for shoving people off cliffs or into campfires. The caveat about not being able to move people into danger with these maneuvers is removed.
Any creature with an Intelligence of 3 or higher receives Power Attack and Combat Expertise as bonus feats at +1 BaB.
Think of these as a Martial's "metamagic." They are combat stances, pure and simple. Anyone familiar with weapons knows how to do these. It doesn't take special training.
Dervish Dance is Weapon Specific, but can be used with any Finesse-able weapon. Think of this like Weapon Focus. Pick a weapon when you chose the feat. You get Dex to damage with that weapon. This gives Dex fighters some much-needed variance and support.
Proficiency with Exotic Weapons cost a Trait. There's exactly one exotic weapon in the game that is arguably worth a feat. It's the Falcata. None of the others even come close. Exotic weapons need to cost less, or do more. Since making them all do more is a pain in the ass, making them cost less is the best solution.
Spears of all kinds may be used in one hand by a character proficient in Martial Weapons. Because history.
More special Weapon Qualities. Giving more weapons bonuses to maneuvers based on their intended purpose makes maneuvers more likely to be used, especially at higher levels where monster CMDs become all but insurmountable. Besides, it just makes sense. Many weapons that should have abilities don't. Think about it. A Swordbreaker Dagger is a Sunder weapon, but a Heavy Mace isn't? (Do the designers not know what maces are for?) Nunchaku aren't a Double Weapon? (There's a reason they are referred to as a pair.) A Flail is a Disarm weapon, but a Flailpole isn't? (Seriously, what?) If weapons gave more diverse and interesting bonuses, we'd see more weapon diversity.
Characters have a number of Attacks of Opportunity each round equal to the number of attacks granted by their BaB. More skilled martial characters should be better at exploiting combat opportunities. This keeps martials more engaged when it is not their turn because they will want to take advantage of additional openings. Combat Reflexes adds AoOs equal to a character's Dex modifier to their number of AoOs a round.
Reach Weapons do not use the ranged weapon Cover rules. Attacking from behind other people is what polearms are designed to do. A martial shouldn't have to invest in archery feats (improved precise shot) in order to use a polearm the way they are designed to be used.
Reach Weapons use the 3.5 Diagonal exception. Currently, pole arms do not threaten on diagonals. At all. Oh, but Large creatures with pole arms do. Can I get a chorus of "what?" Ignoring this little artifact of the grid makes pole arms more functional.
Armor Spikes, Spiked Gauntlets, Bite attacks and other weapons that do not need to be employed in hands allow a character to threaten squares adjacent to them, even if they have attacked with a Reach weapon that round. There is nothing about using a polearm that should stop non-hand weapons from working.
Light Weapons can be drawn as a Free action. Treat them as ammunition. If drawing an arrow is a non-action, so is drawing a knife. Pistols count as Light weapons for the purposes of drawing (because gunslingers are feat starved already, and quick drawing guns should be something that they can just do).
--A Big Change--
At +6 BaB, all characters may Reverse-Spring Attack. If you start a Full Attack, you may move up to your base movement speed during the attack sequence. This works similarly to taking a 5' adjust between attacks, but increases the distance a character is allowed to move . Total movement during an attack sequence cannot exceed a characters base movement speed. This movement must end with an attack against a valid target (the attack sequence must end with an attack, not with movement). (note: This is not move-attack-move. That's Spring Attack which is more tactically advantageous because of it's defensive/stealth/cover possibilities. This is attack-move-attack, which keeps Martial characters from declaring a full attack, killing the enemy on the second swing, and then effectively losing the rest of their potential for the round) This change makes combat much more dynamic and gives martials some much needed mobility without sacrificing effectiveness. It also makes Mobility a more valuable feat, which means we'll see another valid option other than Power Attack.
--Fun Changes--
Spells don't Fizzle. Anyone that fails a concentration check doesn't simply lose the spell. Instead, the Scroll Mishaps rules will be consulted to see what happens to the magical energy when it is interrupted.
Size Matters: Creatures that are bigger than you might move you if they hit you. Slam or Bludgeoning attacks from a creature one size category larger than their target or any melee attack from a creature two or more size categories larger initiate a Bull Rush as a free action after a successful hit (regardless of damage dealt). This bull rush is not automatically directed by the attacker, and uses the Grenade scatter rules to determine which direction the target is moved. Any result that would indicate the target is moved toward the creature instead moves the target straight back away from them.
--Design Notes of the above changes--
If everyone can do it, it isn't imbalancing. The changes above grant additional options to Martial characters without changing their numerical values. They also serve to make combat between martials a lot more varied and dynamic.
I've play tested them in my own games and they work. They aren't a perfect fix, but they are a very good start. Try them out.
I don't really get where all this "martial characters aren't good enough" crap comes from.
To me spell-casters, especially arcane ones, aren't overly powerful until they reach somewhere around level 11 or 12. That's when they start getting into the really good spells imo.
Spell-casters have to wait until a specific situation presents itself to use their spells as well.
They have to work their way up in level before they really start to shine. A fighter, compared to wizards and sorcerers, shines from 1st level to high-mid level. After that, the wizard or sorcerer start to surpass the fighter in what they can do in certain situations, but they still never really outshine fighters in pure combat (aside from being able to cast a handful of high level spells...but then they have blown their wad).
To me, one thing a warrior class character can always do to a wizard or sorcerer is grapple them. Grappling a spell-caster is a sure-fire way to achieve victory. This is just one example of the weaknesses spell-casting classes have. They don't have the durability of warriors, can't fight in melee, suffer terribly from being grappled, etc.
I think the character classes are balanced enough as it is. Taking away weaknesses will only lead to taking away weaknesses of other classes as well.
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I don't really get where all this "martial characters aren't good enough" crap comes from.
To me spell-casters, especially arcane ones, aren't overly powerful until they reach somewhere around level 11 or 12. That's when they start getting into the really good spells imo.
Spell-casters have to wait until a specific situation presents itself to use their spells as well.
They have to work their way up in level before they really start to shine. A fighter, compared to wizards and sorcerers, shines from 1st level to high-mid level. After that, the wizard or sorcerer start to surpass the fighter in what they can do in certain situations, but they still never really outshine fighters in pure combat (aside from being able to cast a handful of high level spells...but then they have blown their wad).
To me, one thing a warrior class character can always do to a wizard or sorcerer is grapple them. Grappling a spell-caster is a sure-fire way to achieve victory. This is just one example of the weaknesses spell-casting classes have. They don't have the durability of warriors, can't fight in melee, suffer terribly from being grappled, etc.
I think the character classes are balanced enough as it is. Taking away weaknesses will only lead to taking away weaknesses of other classes as well.
This is a myth. Casters from the getgo get an encounter ender in the form of Color Spray and Sleep. The DC at 1st level mind you can be as high as DC 18 with a good Charisma.
Grappling doesn't work if you can't touch them if they're flying/displaced/invisible/force bubbled/you're blocked by a wall of force. Grapple also doesn't work period when theres effects like Freedom of Movement that are auto success against it. Freedom of Movement is very common past 7th level.
You have to ask your Arcane Casters not to break your game open like the fragile egg it is. They're one of the few classes where any amount of clever building can smash open your game and let them take it wherever they like.
A well-built boom mage for instance sneezes out damage in the 40-50s by 6th level. By 20th they can do 600ish damage a round.
Ok, so fighters must be bound to the laws of the universe, at all times, even when they are supposed to be as powerful as a caster of the same level- their cr is the same.
They should either be labeled an npc class, or not be so tethered to reality...Or more tethered to reality, where one good swing/bullet will take out just about anyone of any level.
Quoted for absolute truth.
Another route would be to allow spellcasters to keep their world-shattering power, but have each spell negatively affect the caster in a proportional manner (as in Call of Cthulhu spellcasting).
The sad thing about Marthkus's "F--- Martials" campaign is that it doesn't really seem to be too far from Paizo's position. I'm not remembering any errata offhand that substantial weakened spellcasters, while there have been several examples of errata that f--- over martials, or even partial-casters using their non-casting abilities.
Who said I wanted to F--- Martials?
I just want my martials to be more like Gutz and less like Piccolo.
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Who said I wanted to F--- Martials?
I just want my martials to be more like Gutz and less like Piccolo.
This is what i like to see, personally.
I'm just saying that the "piccolo" approach isn't wrong either.
I'm just saying that the "piccolo" approach isn't wrong either.
But for many people who play this game, it is. At least it's not a martial anymore and no amount of re-fluff fixes it.
Execpt it seems that the only acceptable solution is magic, and doing things that aren't normally possible, to actually keep up with the spell-casters.
It's nerf or buff, and the only available buff is magic.
barbarians have su abilities with rage and are definitely not mundane. Popping wings when they go into a rage? Feh.
==Aelryinth
Anything that can be done by a RWBY character (except Weiss she's the only caster like one) should be something that a martial can accomplish by level 15 at the absolute latest. After the martial classes can do that we can work on nerfing some of the more overpowered spells and maybe see about splitting up the casters into classes more like the Beguiler/Dread Necromancer (but not the Warmage... that one needs work).
Here's how I've let Martials have Nice Things in my games:
Wow! Really nice.
My only quibble is that I would spread the effectively bonus feats over the 1st 3-4 levels to avoid 1 level Dips Maybe with Fighters getting them 1 level sooner than other Martial's. But that's something that awkward in a house rule but relatively easy to do in an actual rewrite/errata.
That isn't actually necessary. Since it's all mostly a function of Base Attack Bonus, even wizards get the hang of Power Attack and Combat Expertise after 3rd level.
If you think bonus feats should be spaced out, go for it. I'd love to hear your play test on the idea. I've found it's a really good idea just to tie it to BaB and call it good though. That way, none of these house rules are actually "martial only" (except the one about 1-handing spears) Martials just get access to them sooner.
Unless I missed something. Are you referring to something specific?
Anything that can be done by a RWBY character (except Weiss she's the only caster like one) should be something that a martial can accomplish by level 15 at the absolute latest. After the martial classes can do that we can work on nerfing some of the more overpowered spells and maybe see about splitting up the casters into classes more like the Beguiler/Dread Necromancer (but not the Warmage... that one needs work).
What's RWBY? I think I should know what it is, but the acronym is tripping me.