I used to play WoW and when they hosed over a class they atleast had the courtesy to reset the feats for said class they nerfed...That being said, there has been some discussion about the Crane Style in case you missed it...lol.
The campaign I'm currently in my char just hit Duelist 1 and has been taking the Crane Style tree to get the attack deflection from Crane Wing along with the AoO from Crane Riposte. And according to the latest errata this has changed somewhat...
That being said, I feel somewhat cheated...I mean the only reason I took this feat chain was to stay in line with Precise Strike and give me better AC/deflection plus an AoO...
The build I was going for was the melee type that could engage the baddie while fending off his/her attacks letting the group take care of business....A "light tank" if you will...
Why didn't I go with Two-Weapon Fighting?...Dishing out mindless damage just rolling the dice!..."Dumbing Down the Duelist"...That's what this change should be dubbed...Wish now that I had!...Shoulda Woulda Coulda!...lol
I have exchanged one email so far with the GM and he said I could swap the feat(only discussed Crane Riposte's functionality) but hope to persuade him for the whole style feat tree...
Am I being unreasonable?...Should I ask Paizo for a letter of reprieve for my style feat tree?...A feat reset if you will?...lol...Believe me my current build would be different if I had the latest info on Crane Style...like I said before, I feel cheated...
Hey, your gig changed! If that kills your fun I don't see why someone should have a problem with letting you swap out feats or character for something that lets you have more fun or lets you better do what you came to do, you dig?
Lol...The fun is being with the current group that I am in...they are awesome!...However, I don't want my char to have a dead-end style feat that is only functional every now and then...I would rather switch to the main party damage dealer (ninja gonna give me a run for my money!)than the every now and then guy that can help out!...Especially since my goal was to be the "light tank"!
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There's already three or four threads about crane wing, visible on the front page, was there really any need for another?
Was this about Crane Wing? Or was it about the connection between a GM and player and if something is the right question to ask looking for a personal reassurance?
Is this is about how I should proceed as a Duelist?...should I just accept the current rules on Crane Wing or push for a "reset" on the feat tree?...should I have pursued a dragon disciple instead?...If the char your currently playing has a major component changed would you not ask the same questions?
Is this PFS? This wasn't put in the PFS forum. If this isn't PFS related angst, then I don't understand what's wrong.
This isn't a video game, so you have even more flexibility than what WoW offers. You and your DM can simply say "Let's stick with pre-errata rules".
Or you can agree to change out your feats, or go crazy, make up your own errata! Who cares, it's not like anyone is going to kick in your door and stop you from playing your pen and paper game the way you want.
If this is PFS, then really it's probably best to put it in that forum or at least mark it as so.
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Or you can agree to change out your feats, or go crazy, make up your own errata! Who cares, it's not like anyone is going to kick in your door and stop you from pl
*CRASH*
ON THE FLOOR. WHO TOLD YOU YOU COULD MAKE YOUR OWN ERRATA!PUT THE MOUNTAIN DEW CAN DOWN AND PUT YOUR HANDS ON YOUR HEAD!
Is this is about how I should proceed as a Duelist?...should I just accept the current rules on Crane Wing or push for a "reset" on the feat tree?...should I have pursued a dragon disciple instead?...If the char your currently playing has a major component changed would you not ask the same questions?
Why call Paizo? Talk to your GM. I would think a reasonable GM would let you re-build your character if a major component was changed. For that matter, he might not agree with the errata and let you use the old version. At the very least, you might compromise and keep your Crane Wings as they are now, but in the next campaign it goes to the errata'd version.
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At the OP, maybe because WoW runs on a computer server while Pathfinder is a book? Unless you're playing PFS, you can do whatever you want - accept the change, ignore the change, rest your feats, it's up to you. Nobody from Paizo is going to come to your house and make you play in any way you don't want to.
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When every single duelist build without exception was based on that feat tree, that means it was too powerful and needed to be nerfed.
I don't think I've seen this much whining complaining over an errata since wizards made it where Haste no longer allowed you to cast an extra spell each round.
When every single duelist build without exception was based on that feat tree, that means it was too powerful and needed to be nerfed.
I don't think I've seen this much
whiningcomplaining over an errata since wizards made it where Haste no longer allowed you to cast an extra spell each round.
When every single duelist build without exception was based on that feat tree, that means it was the best way to do it, and should have been left alone. Or should fighters and barbarians see two-hand Power Attack nerves too?
When every single duelist build without exception was based on that feat tree, that means it was the best way to do it, and should have been left alone. Or should fighters and barbarians see two-hand Power Attack nerves too?When every single duelist build without exception was based on that feat tree, that means it was too powerful and needed to be nerfed.
I don't think I've seen this much
whiningcomplaining over an errata since wizards made it where Haste no longer allowed you to cast an extra spell each round.
Power attack OP! NERF NAO!
Alternatively, other abilities just weren't as attractive, and it was their problem. Lots of things it could've meant. Swashbuckler has it built in in a way if I remember correctly, but I haven't look them over.
When every single duelist build without exception was based on that feat tree, that means it was too powerful and needed to be nerfed.
I don't think I've seen this much
whiningcomplaining over an errata since wizards made it where Haste no longer allowed you to cast an extra spell each round.
Why don't we nerf power attack while we're at it?
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When every single duelist build without exception was based on that feat tree, that means it was the best way to do it, and should have been left alone. Or should fighters and barbarians see two-hand Power Attack nerves too?When every single duelist build without exception was based on that feat tree, that means it was too powerful and needed to be nerfed.
I don't think I've seen this much
whiningcomplaining over an errata since wizards made it where Haste no longer allowed you to cast an extra spell each round.Power attack OP! NERF NAO!
Except that while many builds include Power Attack, I cannot think of any specifically built around that feat. I also doubt that the removal of or weakening of Power Attack would spawn multiple posts claiming that entire builds/classes/archetypes are now unplayable by the absence/change. If a particular feat is so potent as to be even more essential to a build than the particular class used, then there is probably a balance issue.
Except that while many builds include Power Attack, I cannot think of any specifically built around that feat.
To be fair, power attack has a blessing most feats don't. No prerequisite feats. You don't have to build yourself around power attack. Most feats wish they were that way.
I used to play WoW and when they hosed over a class they atleast had the courtesy to reset the feats for said class they nerfed...That being said, there has been some discussion about the Crane Style in case you missed it...lol.
The campaign I'm currently in my char just hit Duelist 1 and has been taking the Crane Style tree to get the attack deflection from Crane Wing along with the AoO from Crane Riposte. And according to the latest errata this has changed somewhat...
That being said, I feel somewhat cheated...I mean the only reason I took this feat chain was to stay in line with Precise Strike and give me better AC/deflection plus an AoO...
The build I was going for was the melee type that could engage the baddie while fending off his/her attacks letting the group take care of business....A "light tank" if you will...
Why didn't I go with Two-Weapon Fighting?...Dishing out mindless damage just rolling the dice!..."Dumbing Down the Duelist"...That's what this change should be dubbed...Wish now that I had!...Shoulda Woulda Coulda!...lol
I have exchanged one email so far with the GM and he said I could swap the feat(only discussed Crane Riposte's functionality) but hope to persuade him for the whole style feat tree...
Am I being unreasonable?...Should I ask Paizo for a letter of reprieve for my style feat tree?...A feat reset if you will?...lol...Believe me my current build would be different if I had the latest info on Crane Style...like I said before, I feel cheated...
I think you're being entirely reasonable in asking to rebuild your character. As I understand it, it's a significant change and given you made your choices under one set of rules it's eminently fair to let you revisit the choices once the rules change.
How does "must have" imply "too good"?
I must have read Crane Wing incorrectly. I didn't see the part where it confers complete immunity to damage.
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I've both played and DMed with Crane Wing and it was never overpowered. I have a martial character that is a frontline fighter that will easily stand up to a crane wing fighter
Also, I dont play monks, so your snide comment was meaningless. As to mine, it wasn't over exaggerated, it was dead on. Again, there are many simple, non-overwhelming ways that get around crane wing.
Baelmar- I'd talk with your GM about this. There's no reason the errata needs to be taken into account just yet. If you've already had crane wing on your build for a while, ask him to judge if your build is being disruptive. If it is, then ask to replace the feats. If it's not, then keep it as is.
The Morphling plays in the same area I do. He's known for incredibly powerful, optimized builds. He also GMs a longrunning home game that has been going quite well. I've played a couple PFS games under him, and he's a solid GM.
I say all that to say that when Morphling says a feat is overpowered, he has enough credit to make me pay attention. If anything, I'd have expected him to be saying the opposite. Listening to his opinion made me second guess and rethink my own.
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A feat that has 3 prereq. feats (yes, I know you can get around some of that by dipping MoMS, but then you're giving up a level too), as well as a skill level and BAB prereq, that is only effective against ONE style of fighting (single big hit types) is not overpowered by any strecth of the imagination. As I said before, I've fought with and against Crane Wing and it has never dominated play.
I've both played and DMed with Crane Wing and it was never overpowered. I have a martial character that is a frontline fighter that will easily stand up to a crane wing fighter
Also, I dont play monks, so your snide comment was meaningless. As to mine, it wasn't over exaggerated, it was dead on. Again, there are many simple, non-overwhelming ways that get around crane wing.
When something is so powerful that you have to design around it, it needs nerfed.
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When something is so powerful that you have to design around it, it needs nerfed.I've both played and DMed with Crane Wing and it was never overpowered. I have a martial character that is a frontline fighter that will easily stand up to a crane wing fighter
Also, I dont play monks, so your snide comment was meaningless. As to mine, it wasn't over exaggerated, it was dead on. Again, there are many simple, non-overwhelming ways that get around crane wing.
Hate to tell you, but almost every specially designed fighter needs stuff specifically designed to get around it. By your reasoning, that means Mirror Image, Guns, Greater Invisibility, etc. all need to be nerfed.
When something is so powerful that you have to design around it, it needs nerfed.I've both played and DMed with Crane Wing and it was never overpowered. I have a martial character that is a frontline fighter that will easily stand up to a crane wing fighter
Also, I dont play monks, so your snide comment was meaningless. As to mine, it wasn't over exaggerated, it was dead on. Again, there are many simple, non-overwhelming ways that get around crane wing.
Then why hasn't anything been done about the (various) abusive things you can do with pretty much any arcane caster? I haven't seen any changes to the (numerous) ill-balanced Summoner archetypes like the Synthesist, but everyone complains about it. It seems like the only complaints that result in FAQ changes are the ones that end up affecting Monks.
Hate to tell you, but almost every specially designed fighter needs stuff specifically designed to get around it. By your reasoning, that means Mirror Image, Guns, Greater Invisibility, etc. all need to be nerfed.When something is so powerful that you have to design around it, it needs nerfed.I've both played and DMed with Crane Wing and it was never overpowered. I have a martial character that is a frontline fighter that will easily stand up to a crane wing fighter
Also, I dont play monks, so your snide comment was meaningless. As to mine, it wasn't over exaggerated, it was dead on. Again, there are many simple, non-overwhelming ways that get around crane wing.
Yes, yes it does. It's no secret that magic is broken in PF.
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A perfect example of how easy it is to get around Crane Wing: Our 6th level group (4 people, no arcane caster) went up against a 9th level fighter with Crane Wing and high AC. We could do almost nothing to him. However, I just used my Martial Manuever ability to gain Imp. Feint and Greater Feint as a move action, then feinted him and we crushed him in one round. This is called "adapting tactics to the encounter", what any GM or player should do normally, not anything special. So all the arguments against Crane Style are, IMO, weak at best.
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Wow! So 4 player characters with all of the attack actions such a group has were able to overcome the single big bad auto defense?! No way!
You do realize that in your attempt to defend your precious Crane Wing you just served to demonstrate why it was a problem in the first place? As a defense used by player characters against one heavy hitting enemy, it further exacerbated the action economy inequities by nullifying the best of an already limited number of enemy attacks.
Of course a group of enemies with multiple potential attacks can overcome that singular auto-defense, but most enemy situations in PF deal with one "BBEG" facing the party, and an ability that nullified one of their attacks while still allowing full attacks was indeed an issue.
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Fomsie, you miss the entire point. It was EASY to overcome. In addition, the fighter was built by a min/maxer and was 1.5x the level of the group with PC 9th level gear. So your reply again completely misses the mark. Your example again illustrates the point that CW was only good against ONE specific kind of combatant. In PFS, where the GM is handcuffed, there might be a problem, but in ALL other situations it is non-existent. Like I said before, by your reasoning just about all magic should be heavily nerfed as well as most other combat feats as they all(especially in the case of magic) counter or negate something, and in most cases more things than CW does.
*EDIT* Also, the encounter was in a low magic campaign so we had only two magic items in the whole party, the fighter had 4 himself.
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i dont know your build, but if you swapped out crane style for snake style and just focused on snake fang, im pretty sure you would still be very functional "light tank" and deal a respectable amount of damage through combat reflexes and snake fang.
IMHO i think snake style>crane style. higher probability you will take a hit, but much better damage potential which is just as good, if not better.
My take is thus:
If the character was built before the Nerf then the Nerf does not apply, however to all future characters the Nerf does apply.
I state this because I tend to front-load build my characters, meaning that I build their feat progression from level 1 to level 20 so I know what they are intended to do and that they will qualify for everything.
I never used Crane Wing, and I mostly just focused on offense since it is more fun to me, so I am unfamiliar with the nerf. I can state that if Paizo made more numerous encounters that it wouldn't matter--meaning more enemies in encounters as opposed to singular strong ones--because of action economy and everyone having to defend themselves from ambushes or enemies that attack from all sides.
One of the reasons I dislike PFS is because there is this sense that one actually has to honor its rules. This is a false assertion, and the reason being that unless there is a paizo rep standing over your shoulder that no one will care.
While Paizo has updated their errata people using previous versions of the new errata should not be punished for doing so. PFS characters have short life-spans in that they only go to level 12 after their last module/scenario. Let them enjoy it while they can, then, after finding that Crane Wing is not quite as powerful as it once was, move on to something else.
The point is that we should not take the errata updates as set in stone and realize that, even as a DM for PFS where you are supposed to be disempowered, they are not quite so. Some members of the group might complain that the newest errata is out, and that the DM should use those rules but the simple fact is that since I ban all laptops at my game-tables that I can delay the person by lying and saying that I haven't read the errata yet and that he should print me out a copy. If it is a PFS table then he might not be in my next game, and therefore I wont receive the errata that I already know about. He is happy, I am happy, the guy using a feat that he already chose that was nerfed recently is happy, and the game goes on.
Otherwise you have what someone above said when he stated that he would have to retire his monk due to the nerf.
So, to reitterate in simpler terms:
Characters use the errata as it was when they were made if the new errata is detrimental to them.
New characters use the current errata.
Disagree? That is your right, but It wont change my mind.
Optional Fix:
Free character rebuild.
All gear is liquidated at full value.
Point buy is reset to 20 points.
Attribute increases from leveling are reset.
Skills are reset.
Feats are reset.
In essence everything but the Race, Class, Traits (unless traits are effected) are reset or refunded. If an archetype is effected then Archetypes are reset as well.
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My take is thus:
If the character was built before the Nerf then the Nerf does not apply, however to all future characters the Nerf does apply.I state this because I tend to front-load build my characters, meaning that I build their feat progression from level 1 to level 20 so I know what they are intended to do and that they will qualify for everything.
I never used Crane Wing, and I mostly just focused on offense since it is more fun to me, so I am unfamiliar with the nerf. I can state that if Paizo made more numerous encounters that it wouldn't matter--meaning more enemies in encounters as opposed to singular strong ones--because of action economy and everyone having to defend themselves from ambushes or enemies that attack from all sides.
One of the reasons I dislike PFS is because there is this sense that one actually has to honor its rules. This is a false assertion, and the reason being that unless there is a paizo rep standing over your shoulder that no one will care.
While Paizo has updated their errata people using previous versions of the new errata should not be punished for doing so. PFS characters have short life-spans in that they only go to level 12 after their last module/scenario. Let them enjoy it while they can, then, after finding that Crane Wing is not quite as powerful as it once was, move on to something else.
The point is that we should not take the errata updates as set in stone and realize that, even as a DM for PFS where you are supposed to be disempowered, they are not quite so. Some members of the group might complain that the newest errata is out, and that the DM should use those rules but the simple fact is that since I ban all laptops at my game-tables that I can delay the person by lying and saying that I haven't read the errata yet and that he should print me out a copy. If it is a PFS table then he might not be in my next game, and therefore I wont receive the errata that I already know about. He is happy, I am happy, the guy using a feat that...
So let me get this right. One of tge reasons you don't like PFS is because you don't have to honor the rules. Essentially, I'm reading that (and correct me if I'm wrong) as you feel its too easy to cheat in PFS.
So then you go on to write quite a bit about how you don't intend to honor the rules as either a player or GM.
<blink>
Self-fulfilling prophecy?
Please follow the rules in PFS, and please don't advocate for others to cheat.
In your home game, you can set whatever house rules you like.
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If you're a high-AC duelist, new Crane Wing doesn't really affect you all that much. One natural 20 every few scenarios hits you now. Not a big change. Mix in some Constitution.
The builds that this does affect are the 7AC raging unarmed barbarians and the 11AC armorless casters that picked up Crane Wing because, "well, why not? I need a hand free to cast anyways..."