How do driders fit in drow society

[Valafar The Black]

I find driders very interesting

[Hazrond]

They are seen as barely more than vermin and are usually the result of a drow trying to run or getting disgraced, so they are little more than suicide troops to the drow

[Kalindlara]

In Golarion, driders are created from shamed drow or those who are sentenced for political reasons. Drow fleshwarping techniques are used on them, and the result is a drider.

They are sometimes used as hunters and powerful warriors by the noble houses. Otherwise, they are outcasts and exiles.

[Delvaron]

I never understood why becoming a drider in forgotten realms and greyhawk was a punishment. Since they ended up looking more like Loth and taking on a part spidery visage. But it may have been something where they became stuck with the idea and just had to keep it as is.

[Wei Ji the Learner]

This is a very trigger-edge topic for me, but I can manage it, barely.

I suspect the reason on other worlds is because the behavior of the lower half plus locking the form plus it being a sign of true failure at the pinnacle of achievement is where all the stigma comes from.

In Golarion, it's a bit more simple. Someone got caught out in the ever-shifting tides of social interaction in the frenetic confines of drow society. Given that it appears to be a one-way trip, it neatly produces another resource that can be used in any of a number of ways plus eliminates competition.

And if someone can't defeat one, well, that's a pity, isn't it?

[Saldiven]

Aurrik wrote:

I never understood why becoming a drider in forgotten realms and greyhawk was a punishment. Since they ended up looking more like Loth and taking on a part spidery visage. But it may have been something where they became stuck with the idea and just had to keep it as is.

The parts that remained humanoid became poor, foul caricatures of a true Drow. Whereas Drow were physically beautiful, Drider features were bloated, slack, and repulsive. Drow were intelligent, witty, and charismatic; Driders were animalistic.

Also, the Forgotten Realms fluff behind the Drider was that it was a conversion specifically meant as a punishment, often for failing to properly revere Lolth.

[Zhangar]

It's a punishment in the 1E fluff, too.

IIRC, the transformation usually wrecks the victim's original personality and memories.

Driders are smart enough to still function as people afterwards, but a drider has fairly little in common with the drow it once was.

[justaworm]

It seems as though the individual drow clans have different opinions on them, which Kalindlara eludes too. Mainly, they are no better than (mostly) obedient, though powerful, slaves once they are fleshwarped into a drider.

The Second Darkness AP is filled with drow / drider lore and is a good read for that alone. I can't remember how much is in Into the Darklands, but there may be some good stuff there too.

[Saldiven]

The sections of the Drizzt series that deal with that character's youth give a good explanation for how Forgotten Realms Drow felt about Driders. They were outcasts that lived at the fringes of society, shunned by right thinking Drow.

[Delvaron]

I have read the fluff behind why being a drider is bad in the eyes of the drow, and I can see it but the fact that when the drow who become driders are still wizards or even sometimes priests or priestess with the ability to use the spells especially in older editions of the campaigns. You have to wonder why being a drow is bad in their eyes as one of the aspects of their deity is very drider like is all I was saying. That was just a thought I've had for a while in the 20+ years I've been reading and playing table top games

[Delvaron]

As such I could see where a few factions of groups of drow on other variations of the prime material with such a goddess could see it as blessing or the ultimate thing to shoot for

[Lathiira]

I believe it was in the 3.5 Drow of The Underdark book that your idea Aurrik came up, that it was possible that ye olde Spider Queen had some plan for the driders, why else "reward" them with a form more similar to her own? Younger drow generations even made alliances with them to the point where the driders were approaching the point of being second-class citizens.

[Saldiven]

Aurrik wrote:

I have read the fluff behind why being a drider is bad in the eyes of the drow, and I can see it but the fact that when the drow who become driders are still wizards or even sometimes priests or priestess with the ability to use the spells especially in older editions of the campaigns. You have to wonder why being a drow is bad in their eyes as one of the aspects of their deity is very drider like is all I was saying. That was just a thought I've had for a while in the 20+ years I've been reading and playing table top games

From my memory, in Forgotten Realms at least, they did not retain much of any of their prior intellectual capacity. Other versions of AD&D and AD&D 2e of course could have been different. It might very well just be a quirk of that setting.

[Delvaron]

Well this topic got me looking and I found this article if you were wondering how driders have fit in through the ages since first penned

http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?357173-Monster-ENCyclopedia-Dri der

[LazarX]

Aurrik wrote:

I have read the fluff behind why being a drider is bad in the eyes of the drow, and I can see it but the fact that when the drow who become driders are still wizards or even sometimes priests or priestess with the ability to use the spells especially in older editions of the campaigns. You have to wonder why being a drow is bad in their eyes as one of the aspects of their deity is very drider like is all I was saying. That was just a thought I've had for a while in the 20+ years I've been reading and playing table top games

Keep in mind that drow in Golarion aren't clones of the Lolth-worshipping dark elves of Faerun. Their origin and motivations, while still chaotic and evil are entirely different.

Also remember that "fitting in" takes a different context when all the members of a society are evil, and constantly trying to gain advantage over each other.

[Dave Justus]

LazarX wrote:

Keep in mind that drow in Golarion aren't clones of the Lolth-worshipping dark elves of Faerun. Their origin and motivations, while still chaotic and evil are entirely different.

Well, they actually pretty much are clones of the Lolth-worshiping dark elves of Faerun (actually I'm old school, for me the come from Grayhawk) with the copy-righted material filed off.

Eberron actually had some drow with a different flavor.

[Zhangar]

Think of the drow transformation being a sort of reformatting.

Something no drow would normally willingly have happen to himself or herself, because it means a death of self, and a different person wearing your face being left in your place.

[LazarX]

Dave Justus wrote:

LazarX wrote:

Keep in mind that drow in Golarion aren't clones of the Lolth-worshipping dark elves of Faerun. Their origin and motivations, while still chaotic and evil are entirely different.

Well, they actually pretty much are clones of the Lolth-worshiping dark elves of Faerun (actually I'm old school, for me the come from Grayhawk) with the copy-righted material filed off.

Having read various sources of Golarion Drow history from Second Darkness to the Inner Sea Races book, I don't see it that way.

[Mechagamera]

Remember that Lolth is a capricious and cruel goddess, so no matter what the priestesses say, it might be given out as a punishment one day and a reward the next......

In 4e, Lolth had a drow-looking goddess form and a drider-looking demon form that she only took when she got hurt, so a drider would represent her hidden shame. You could apply that same logic to earlier editions Lolth, where the drow form is similar to her pre-Lolth form, and the drider resembling her fallen state (a subconscious self-hatred toward what she has become).

[Zhayne]

Valafar The Black wrote:

I find driders very interesting

They fit wherever the world-builder (aka the GM) wants them to fit. Me, I always figured that since (stereotypically) Drow worship spiders and such, being a Drider should be considered an improvement/promotion.

[Trigger Loaded]

I recall in 3.5 (Perhaps 3.0, actually, don't remember) there was stats in Dragon magazine for a squad of Lloth-loyal commandos, assorted monsters and drow servants. I can recall a succubus, a half-dragon priestess, and even a drider.

I believe it's mentioned that while fellow drow consider driders to be shameful and will expunge them, Lloth herself considers their punishment over and done with once they become driders, and thus they can earn their way back into her graces. (Though they're still driders.)

[DungeonmasterCal]

In my homebrew they've always been the Favored of Lolth, seeing as how their transformation made them look like her.

[dragonhunterq]

Many things that are a strict upgrade can still be culturally taboo. In a culture where appearance is everything, the outward sign of failure can well be more mortifying than the power upgrade. Especially when, despite their worship of spiders, Drow still see their normal form as the most beautiful. Any blemish or scar is seen as a form of failure. And any alteration is a sign that you didn't feel you were attractive enough - again a sign of weakness. It's why (as far as I recall) tatooing and piercing wasn't a big thing in Drow society. Drow are the most amazing bigots, and their belief in their own self-perfection is colossal.

[Kobold Catgirl]

Note: Making this post required, once again, for me to Google Image search for spider pictures. I am not happy with where my choices in life are taking me.

Saldiven wrote:

Aurrik wrote:

I never understood why becoming a drider in forgotten realms and greyhawk was a punishment. Since they ended up looking more like Loth and taking on a part spidery visage. But it may have been something where they became stuck with the idea and just had to keep it as is.

The parts that remained humanoid became poor, foul caricatures of a true Drow. Whereas Drow were physically beautiful, Drider features were bloated, slack, and repulsive.

Unless they were girls.

PRD wrote:

A female drider's lower spider body is sleek and graceful, often similar to a black widow's body, while its upper drow torso retains its alluring curves and beautiful face (with the exception of sharp, poisonous fangs). A male drider's lower body is bulky like a tarantula, while its upper body is wiry and bears a hideous face more spider than drow, complete with fanged mandibles.

hi hey hello welcome to paths n dragons rpg!

ahhhh yes good I see you want to play as a GIANT SPIDER!

are you a BOY spider

or a GIRL spider?

I could not actually find a proper spider-faced man drider but OBVIOUSLY I DID NOT LOOK VERY HARD.

[Kalindlara]

For a good example of what KC's talking about, compare the Bestiary art (male) to Vhalhisstre Vexidyre from the Rival Guide (female).

[Kobold Catgirl]

Isn't the Bestiary art female?

[Kalindlara]

Why, so it is. Let me see where the one I'm thinking of is at...

[Kalindlara]

The (male) art I was thinking of is actually on the back cover of Pathfinder Adventure Path #16: Endless Night[/url]. Sorry.

(That shows you how often I look up driders... or reference the [i]Bestiary. Could have sworn that was the art they used.)

[Entryhazard]

I don't get why the driders should be outcasts in the drow society.

While divercoed from they Lolth heritage in pathfinder, many racial spells/idems/feats still imply that Golario Drows are very fond of spiders anyways.

Also looking at the Bestiary entry of the Drider, they seem more powerful than the Drow and still have an high intellect, up to being able to be a wizard in spellcasting. Also female driders manage to not lose a somewhat graceful appearance

[captain yesterday]

Serpent's Skull book 5 has a great picture of a male drider, they certainly aren't attractive at all, unless you got a thing for mandibles:-D

[Luthorne]

You can read a bit about it here, which also has a picture of a male drider (or you can click here).

But, in short, they're not outcasts because they're driders, they're driders because they're outcasts.

[Entryhazard]

Luthorne wrote:

But, in short, they're not outcasts because they're driders, they're driders because they're outcasts.

While it is the case, I would never punish the outcasts by giving them an upgrade.

[Luthorne]

Entryhazard wrote:

Luthorne wrote:

But, in short, they're not outcasts because they're driders, they're driders because they're outcasts.

While it is the case, I would never punish the outcasts by giving them an upgrade.

Considering the 'upgrade' seems to erase the vast majority of their memories...turning them into mindwiped superior slaves seems like a pretty drow thing to do...and not something they would want to do to themselves unless they had a way around the whole 'wiping your mind' angle.

[dragonhunterq]

I'm not sure how much of an upgrade I would accept at the cost of most of my memories.

Little remains of who they once were, and they are still useful as tools - far more efficient than killing them.

[Entryhazard]

Luthorne wrote:

Entryhazard wrote:

Luthorne wrote:

But, in short, they're not outcasts because they're driders, they're driders because they're outcasts.

While it is the case, I would never punish the outcasts by giving them an upgrade.

Considering the 'upgrade' seems to erase the vast majority of their memories...turning them into mindwiped superior slaves seems like a pretty drow thing to do...and not something they would want to do to themselves unless they had a way around the whole 'wiping your mind' angle.

dragonhunterq wrote:

I'm not sure how much of an upgrade I would accept at the cost of most of my memories.

Little remains of who they once were, and they are still useful as tools - far more efficient than killing them.

But it's not like Driders are mindless beasts, all their mental stats are above average and all of them are capable of spellcasting, even prepared

[Kobold Catgirl]

Yeah, but if you become smarter at the expense of losing who you used to be, do you really reap any rewards?

[Luthorne]

Entryhazard wrote:

Luthorne wrote:

Entryhazard wrote:

Luthorne wrote:

But, in short, they're not outcasts because they're driders, they're driders because they're outcasts.

While it is the case, I would never punish the outcasts by giving them an upgrade.

Considering the 'upgrade' seems to erase the vast majority of their memories...turning them into mindwiped superior slaves seems like a pretty drow thing to do...and not something they would want to do to themselves unless they had a way around the whole 'wiping your mind' angle.

dragonhunterq wrote:

I'm not sure how much of an upgrade I would accept at the cost of most of my memories.

Little remains of who they once were, and they are still useful as tools - far more efficient than killing them.

But it's not like Driders are mindless beasts, all their mental stats are above average and all of them are capable of spellcasting, even prepared

They aren't, but they aren't the person they were before. In a very real sense, that person is 'dead'...there might, at best, be some remnants of their past personality, but it seems like at most they influence the new personality (such as the rarer rebellious female driders), not compose it.

I mean, if someone could give you Superman's powers, but with the minor little detail that your brain would be wiped and a new personality would evolved to inhabit your now superpowered body...well, you're not really benefitting very much, are you? You'd have to be pretty self-sacrificial to go for that deal, I think...which is not really something that characterizes a primarily chaotic evil race, methinks.