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Magic just doesn't work in an AMF. It's that simple.
Obviously not that simple, since everyone seems to have different ideas. :)
I don't see what you mean about SLAs not working. Obviously you can't cast them in the field. Are you referring to some transmutation SLAs being brought into the field? Because I would treat them the same as a normal transmutation spell being brought into the field.
Yet, SPAs don't function in an AMF.
I don't see the relevance.
I will explain my logic simply. You seem to be telling me an object will magically resize in an area devoid of magic. I don't see how it could.
It is magic that changed it in the first place. In the case of non-instantaneous durations, the change only lasts as long as the effect's duration hasn't expired. Only one thing happens when a duration expires: the effect stops. Similarly, in an area where magical effects are suppressed (see the definition of that word), it would go back to what it was before. At no point at the end of a transmutation does it take a new effect to revert the item back to what it was. It just simply resumes being what it was. I don't see why the AMF would need to perform a new effect in order to end a transmutation as if that school is special somehow.
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The f--- TOZ? Get it together.
I'm in agreement with Sushewakka on this case.
I liken Polymorph to stretching a rubber band. So long as the magic is present, it continues to pull on the band and keep it in it's stretched (polymorphed) state.
But as soon as the force is removed (the magic) the band will revert to it's normal state.
The f--- TOZ? Get it together.
I'm almost of the mind he's trolling us.
The f--- TOZ? Get it together.I'm almost of the mind he's trolling us.It's usually a safe bet, but not today.
I'm taking it to be some kind of natural expansion back to its original state. I'm not satisfied with it, but I'll accept it.
I just don't see anything in the transmutation school that explicitly states its effects end only when dispelled (which AMF doesn't do) or something similar. I can't think of any non-instantaneous spell that would stick around in an AMF field from any other school let alone transmutation in a way I understand you to be describing.
I'm curious if you've got some wicked spell combo and someone tried to use an AMF on you and you couldn't accept that your nut had cracked. Or, you had a player that you otherwise wholly trust who insisted that's how it worked and you accepted that. Something of that nature.
Fortunately, shrink item accounts for volume, not area. A HOLLOW cone takes up a surprisingly small amount of volume.Because the spell is no longer working and without it the cone returns to its original form. If someone chose the option to turn it into a cloth item would you say it remained a piece of cloth inside the AMF.
Personally I am less than convinced this works for two reasons. At level 20 40' feet is an item 5'x5'x1.6' which isnt large enough to cover you. Also I see no reason to assume it will snugly fit directly over you rather than rolling off at an angle.
Having it as the basis for Wizards wearing pointy hats is mildly amusing.
Finally given AMF isnt really a problem for spellcasters if they know what they are doing the whole cone hat trick thing is unnecessary.
Unfortunately, a cone takes up a huge amount of volume, because you're shrinking it in its expanded size, not its compact mass.
The spell looks at area, not mass. A circus tent takes up a massive amount of space. Rolled canvas around the support bars, not so much.
Trying to argue that the spell only looks at mass isn't going to work. It measures cubic area for a reason, and its the space the object occupies when shrunk, not the space it occupies compacted.
==Aelryinth
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I'm almost of the mind he's trolling us.It's usually a safe bet, but not today.
Well, maybe a little...
I'm curious if you've got some wicked spell combo and someone tried to use an AMF on you and you couldn't accept that your nut had cracked. Or, you had a player that you otherwise wholly trust who insisted that's how it worked and you accepted that. Something of that nature.
No, I don't think I've ever seen it used except in a one-off 3.5 game.
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Honestly it sounds like your arcane characters just werent very well prepared. If it is a PFS 7-11 scenario then a good number of them could be solo'd by a competent 9-11th level Wizard, Cleric, Druid or Witch or 10-11 Oracle or Sorcerer.
The magus was quite a strong magus. He was level 7. Most of the party was level 7 or 8.
There's a dozen other factors depending on the fight that would hinder a level 7-8 full wizard. I won't spoil which scenario it is, but I assure you, it can eat a wizard for breakfast. I wouldn't be surprised if it's singlehandedly is responsible for killing a wizard every slot at major conventions where it's offered every slot.
If you play PFS, I encourage you to ask about your game days about killer scenarios for a wizard in the 7-8 range, and I'm sure you can be appropriately challenged for an afternoon.
what was that 9th level spell that let you cast one spell in an AMF? Infuse Energy, or something? Specifically made so a wizard could deal with AMF's, albeit they had to be an archmage.
==Aelryinth
BTW, guys trolling from the BG boards called PF the Caster Edition simply because they got more hit points AND more per-level class features, instead of just spells.
They just singled out the spells that hadn't been nerfed, pointed to d6+FC bonus + actual class features, and proclaimed the Caster Edition.
All because their +60 to Hit Melee Uberchargers couldn't go -20/+40 on Power Attack anymore.
And they were right. If you are going to hit with every single attack, 3.5 Power Attack is better. Those are the same guys who routinely played with Str 50+ melee characters and stuff, so it's to be expected.
==Aelryinth
Honestly it sounds like your arcane characters just werent very well prepared. If it is a PFS 7-11 scenario then a good number of them could be solo'd by a competent 9-11th level Wizard, Cleric, Druid or Witch or 10-11 Oracle or Sorcerer.The magus was quite a strong magus. He was level 7. Most of the party was level 7 or 8.
There's a dozen other factors depending on the fight that would hinder a level 7-8 full wizard. I won't spoil which scenario it is, but I assure you, it can eat a wizard for breakfast. I wouldn't be surprised if it's singlehandedly is responsible for killing a wizard every slot at major conventions where it's offered every slot.
If you play PFS, I encourage you to ask about your game days about killer scenarios for a wizard in the 7-8 range, and I'm sure you can be appropriately challenged for an afternoon.
Could you PM me the scenario? Is it this season? I very well may have played it and if its the one I think I'd be interested to swap stories.
The f--- TOZ? Get it together.I'm almost of the mind he's trolling us.It's usually a safe bet, but not today.
I'm taking it to be some kind of natural expansion back to its original state. I'm not satisfied with it, but I'll accept it.
My take:
The magic is suppressing the size of the item -- when the magic is absent then the item returns to it's mundane size... because that's the actual size of the item. In effect inhibiting the magic (or suppressing) from having its effect.
Since the magic isn't having an effect the item goes back to its normal mundane size -- because there is no magic and with no magic there is no way for it to not be its mundane size.
I think I understand the line of thought, but I agree with the others in that the item would revert to its original form.
I think of this particular form of magic as follows:
The item is water.
The Shrink Item spell is a glass.
When you pour water into the glass, the water conforms to a new shape according to the form of the glass (in this case, the item shrinks).
'Anti-magic' is the equivalent of temporarily removing/shattering the glass (the shrunken item enters anti-magic zone).
With the glass no longer enforcing a particular shape on the water, it reverts to its original shape (shrunken item returns to original size).
Other examples that I believe would work this way is Enlarge Person or Polymorph - when the creature affected by these spells enter an anti-magic zone they (temporarily) turn back to their original form.
The main reason I think of it this way is because Shrink Item has a continuous duration, which implies to me that there is a constant effect enforcing the limitation. If Shrink Item had been instantaneous the magic would simply force the change and then dissipate, and anti-magic would have no effect.
An example of a shape-changing spell with an instantaneous duration is Reincarnate. A reincarnated gnome (who was previously a dwarf) who walked into an anti-magic field would remain a gnome.
A possibly interesting question is as follows: What happens if you cast Acid Arrow at a target inside of an anti-magic zone?
...when the magic is absent then the item returns to it's mundane size...And this is the part where I'm hearing 'because reasons' in my head.
There is apparently some other force that causes the change, the magic only maintains the change.
fine. think of it as a gas in a compressor with tank. take the compressor and tank away and the gas will expand.
same here... the magic is both compressor and tank. take the magic away and the item does not stay compressed.
magic is both parts, in my first post i simply assumed that was und3erstood and addressed the part that was in question.
...when the magic is absent then the item returns to it's mundane size...And this is the part where I'm hearing 'because reasons' in my head.
There is apparently some other force that causes the change, the magic only maintains the change.
It seems obvious that magic both causes and maintains the change.
If it was an instantaneous type of effect, it would be... well... an instantaneous type of effect. The actual change of shape is not over instantaneously, it is a continuing effect maintained by continuing transmutation magic.
That's what a spell having a duration means. It's the same way that a good hope spell's +2 morale bonus is maintained by continuing magic. Both effects ("item smaller than normal" and "+2 morale bonus") are interrupted if the spell that maintains the effect in question is interrupted.
Could you PM me the scenario? Is it this season? I very well may have played it and if its the one I think I'd be interested to swap stories.If it is the one I think it is I playtested a solo level 11 Arcanist against it without too much problem.
"Playtested" in this case referring to running a character through the module yourself relying primarily on stealth and flight. Do we need to retread the ground again about how this is both (1) not a playtest if you are player and GM and (2) bad example of how a character stands up in actual play?
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The classic trick of killing antimagic field death knights is to shrink a boulder then sling that 'pebble' at them.
When you magically shrink an item it reverts to its regular size once it enters the AM field.
The classic trick of killing antimagic field death knights is to shrink a boulder then sling that 'pebble' at them.
When you magically shrink an item it reverts to its regular size once it enters the AM field.
I've seen GMs argue that the pebble/boulder would crash down near the edge of the field, for with its sudden increase in mass comes the increased pull of gravity and the significant decrease in its forward velocity/kinetic energy.
Are the boulders made of neutron star matter?
If so, forget the enemy, that whole planet is pretty boned.
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I've seen GMs argue that the pebble/boulder would crash down near the edge of the field, for with its sudden increase in mass comes the increased pull of gravity and the significant decrease in its forward velocity/kinetic energy.The classic trick of killing antimagic field death knights is to shrink a boulder then sling that 'pebble' at them.
When you magically shrink an item it reverts to its regular size once it enters the AM field.
That is not how physics work. The boulder falls down and moves forward at the same rate as the pebble would have. The only thing changing relevant to trajectory is the air resistance and properties related to that. Which is negligible over that distance.
But that argument assumes that the pebbloulder is moving at a fixed horizontal velocity even after it gets big again. If we see the boulder is moving at a fixed rate, it shouldn't have any change in how the center of gravity moves. If we believe that it is the acting force that stays constant and not the velocity, then the boulder would undergo a rapid change in acceleration as it's mass increases.
But even before all that, you need to factor in the possibility of having a significantly large boulder which may end up skidding along the ground once the magic wears off.
I think I understand the line of thought, but I agree with the others in that the item would revert to its original form.
I think of this particular form of magic as follows:
The item is water.
The Shrink Item spell is a glass.When you pour water into the glass, the water conforms to a new shape according to the form of the glass (in this case, the item shrinks).
'Anti-magic' is the equivalent of temporarily removing/shattering the glass (the shrunken item enters anti-magic zone).
With the glass no longer enforcing a particular shape on the water, it reverts to its original shape (shrunken item returns to original size).
Other examples that I believe would work this way is Enlarge Person or Polymorph - when the creature affected by these spells enter an anti-magic zone they (temporarily) turn back to their original form.
The main reason I think of it this way is because Shrink Item has a continuous duration, which implies to me that there is a constant effect enforcing the limitation. If Shrink Item had been instantaneous the magic would simply force the change and then dissipate, and anti-magic would have no effect.
An example of a shape-changing spell with an instantaneous duration is Reincarnate. A reincarnated gnome (who was previously a dwarf) who walked into an anti-magic field would remain a gnome.
A possibly interesting question is as follows: What happens if you cast Acid Arrow at a target inside of an anti-magic zone?
Alternatively to use the same analogy - rather than water the Transmutation could be jelly. Thus when the glass shatters there's no magic to turn it back to liquid (altering it's viscosity).
If it was an instantaneous duration.... then after how long would it revert - or would the spell have to be permanent?
We know from RAW that a magical weapon becomes a masterwork weapon in an AMF. Since your weapons are permanently changed to have magical qualities and those go away. Why would transmutations, which physically change something, be special in that they don't change in an AMF? The impact property's prerequisites are all transmutation spells. Many weapon enchantments include transmutations. Yet, they still get turned off for weapons explicitly within the spell text itself. I see zero reason why other transmutations would be unaffected.As transmutation, yes. You have physically changed the mass of the arrow, and within the AMF there is no magic able to change it back.
This also avoids the question of how it works striking a foe with an enlarged unarmed strike from outside the field and if your fist shrinks or not while the rest of you remains enlarged.
Don't all magic weapons start out as masterwork?
...when the magic is absent then the item returns to it's mundane size...And this is the part where I'm hearing 'because reasons' in my head.
There is apparently some other force that causes the change, the magic only maintains the change.
So does that mean I could Polymorph myself and it would last LONGER in an AMF since the magic spell isn't there - and therefore can't expire?
Don't all magic weapons start out as masterwork?
Yup, but it's explicitly stated in the spell.
Duration still passes normally in an AMF.
So does that mean I could Polymorph myself and it would last LONGER in an AMF since the magic spell isn't there - and therefore can't expire?...when the magic is absent then the item returns to it's mundane size...And this is the part where I'm hearing 'because reasons' in my head.
There is apparently some other force that causes the change, the magic only maintains the change.
The duration/spell is there but it's suppressed.
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That is not how physics work. The boulder falls down and moves forward at the same rate as the pebble would have. The only thing changing relevant to trajectory is the air resistance and properties related to that. Which is negligible over that distance.I've seen GMs argue that the pebble/boulder would crash down near the edge of the field, for with its sudden increase in mass comes the increased pull of gravity and the significant decrease in its forward velocity/kinetic energy.The classic trick of killing antimagic field death knights is to shrink a boulder then sling that 'pebble' at them.
When you magically shrink an item it reverts to its regular size once it enters the AM field.
Actually, it's exactly how physics works.
There's X amount of energy invested in the sling stone. If the sling stone suddenly weighs 1000x as much, the energy invested in it is not enough to maintain its speed, and it will instantly decelerate to match the infamous KE= .e mv^2 formula, where KE is constant and m just went to x1000. Velocity will drop like, well, a stone.
To see this in real life, put a rubber ball on top of a basketball and drop them on pavement. The basketball will bounce normally. The rubber ball will take off like a shot into the air, because the same amount of kinetic energy moves it much farther and faster then the basketball.
The sling stone is the rubber ball, and the boulder is the basketball, it just is operating in reverse.
That all said, it's magic, and it can work however the DM said it works. If we're using dimensional substitution and parallel phase-shifted mass that only tracks relative position and velocity and not kinetic energy, who cares?
In that event, Polymorphed Any Object spheres of acid changed into sling pellets work great, too. Or lava, if you've a volcano nearby. I'd wince and go paper airplanes of itemized lava, but the GM would likely kill me.
==Aelryinth
Yeah as far as I can tell the main point of contention between Aelryinth and myself on this issue is how the spell calculates what fits into it.
The groups I have played with have always gone with the volume of the actual object, whereas Aelryinth goes with the amount the object encompasses.
I think both are equally valid interpretations of the spell in question due to the fact it states "one touched object of up to 2 cu. ft./level" and that is why I don't argue the point with Aelryinth any more.
At the end of the day what matters is consistency at the table, and awareness that not all tables are the same.
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That is not how physics work. The boulder falls down and moves forward at the same rate as the pebble would have. The only thing changing relevant to trajectory is the air resistance and properties related to that. Which is negligible over that distance.I've seen GMs argue that the pebble/boulder would crash down near the edge of the field, for with its sudden increase in mass comes the increased pull of gravity and the significant decrease in its forward velocity/kinetic energy.The classic trick of killing antimagic field death knights is to shrink a boulder then sling that 'pebble' at them.
When you magically shrink an item it reverts to its regular size once it enters the AM field.
Think of it this way. What takes more energy to throw, a marble or a bowling ball? If you are exerting sufficient force to throw a marble, would it be enough to throw a bowling ball? The answer is no. If somehow, you could recreate an object going from small to large in a matter of seconds then you would have your answer, but trying to use physics in this case is nonsense. Equivalent force behind an object is what moves it forward, if that object were to suddenly increase in mass and weight then force isn't automatically generated to compensate for the sudden extra mass and weight. The boulder would likely drop instead of continuing to move forward.
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That is not how physics work. The boulder falls down and moves forward at the same rate as the pebble would have. The only thing changing relevant to trajectory is the air resistance and properties related to that. Which is negligible over that distance.I've seen GMs argue that the pebble/boulder would crash down near the edge of the field, for with its sudden increase in mass comes the increased pull of gravity and the significant decrease in its forward velocity/kinetic energy.The classic trick of killing antimagic field death knights is to shrink a boulder then sling that 'pebble' at them.
When you magically shrink an item it reverts to its regular size once it enters the AM field.
Actually, it's exactly how physics works.
There's X amount of energy invested in the sling stone. If the sling stone suddenly weighs 1000x as much, the energy invested in it is not enough to maintain its speed, and it will instantly decelerate to match the infamous KE= .e mv^2 formula, where KE is constant and m just went to x1000. Velocity will drop like, well, a stone.
To see this in real life, put a rubber ball on top of a basketball and drop them on pavement. The basketball will bounce normally. The rubber ball will take off like a shot into the air, because the same amount of kinetic energy moves it much farther and faster then the basketball.
The sling stone is the rubber ball, and the boulder is the basketball, it just is operating in reverse.
That all said, it's magic, and it can work however the DM said it works. If we're using dimensional substitution and parallel phase-shifted mass that only tracks relative position and velocity and not kinetic energy, who cares?
In that event, Polymorphed Any Object spheres of acid changed into sling pellets work great, too. Or lava, if you've a volcano nearby. I'd wince and go paper airplanes of itemized lava, but the GM would likely kill me.
==Aelryinth
Ninja'd