It's 3am, do you know where your settlement is?


Pathfinder Online

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Goblin Squad Member

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GrumpyMel wrote:

Some points....

- If I wanted to play EvE, I would play EvE. I don't want PFO to be EvE with Elf Skins.

- There is a finite audience of people willing to play a game where they are required to put real life concerns aside and wake up at 3:00 AM on any moments notice just in order to play a game. I would suggest that most of those people are probably already playing EvE. I suspect (though I could be wrong) that PFO will need to reach out to an audience that includes people other then that.

- If I am wrong and it is the design goal that to meaningfully participate in PFO in any fasion requires that, I would appreciate that Ryan let us know....so that I can write off my current contributions as a loss and stop wasting my (and everbody elses time)

This thread is for GrumpyMel and any other non-EVE players that have gotten sudden concerns at the mention of 3am phone calls to log in and defend your settlement.

I happily played EVE for a few years and every second I was in null sec (the environment that 98% of PO will be) I was a trespasser that would have been shot on sight; which is why I was in a stealth bomber. I never once was even as close as three steps removed from having the protection and privilidge of those uber strong major hardcore players and I was able to play and enjoy myself just fine.

I'll give you an example using names I make up off the top of my head:

The USA, England, Russia, China, Germany, and Japan are kingdoms in the game whose hardcore players got up at 3am when needed to win battles and conquer a lot of territory. They have tons of resources now because of it, and can exert economic and military influence around the entire game map so everyone always knows what's going on with them.

Meanwhile, there are lots of people happily playing in Thailand. Nobody outside the region hears a peep about all the political wackieness that goes on in Thailand because they're smaller and never do 3am wake up calls to expand their territory. A few residents are ambitious and apply for visas to one of the global kingdoms but most are content where they are. Argentina, Poland, Ethiopia, Canada, etc. the game is mostly made of mid-size kingdoms where players play when they want and they are strong enough to matter to others in their region but not globally. And that's fine with the people that live there because they're already happy there. They play the game merrily along just without the 3am calls that made the giants giant.

Then you have the little settlements like Mauritius, Lichtenstein, Trinidad & Tobago, etc. that are so small they almost don't have political mass and exercise spellchecks everywhere. Many people born here move out to the mid-size kingdoms when they're able so they never really grow. But you know there are people that are happiest in those small-town everyone knows everyone nothing happens here places too.

That's the general layout in EVE and im 99.99999% sure that's how PO will be long-term too. If you want to play without 3am calls that is MOST of the game, and the hardcore players have the section that keeps them happy.

tl;dr Astronomers discovered a planet that is so molten hot and windy there it rains glass... sideways.

Goblin Squad Member

Proxima Sin wrote:
GrumpyMel wrote:

Some points....

- If I wanted to play EvE, I would play EvE. I don't want PFO to be EvE with Elf Skins.

- There is a finite audience of people willing to play a game where they are required to put real life concerns aside and wake up at 3:00 AM on any moments notice just in order to play a game. I would suggest that most of those people are probably already playing EvE. I suspect (though I could be wrong) that PFO will need to reach out to an audience that includes people other then that.

- If I am wrong and it is the design goal that to meaningfully participate in PFO in any fasion requires that, I would appreciate that Ryan let us know....so that I can write off my current contributions as a loss and stop wasting my (and everbody elses time)

This thread is for GrumpyMel and any other non-EVE players that have gotten sudden concerns at the mention of 3am phone calls to log in and defend your settlement.

I happily played EVE for a few years and every second I was in null sec (the environment that 98% of PO will be) I was a trespasser that would have been shot on sight; which is why I was in a stealth bomber. I never once was even as close as three steps removed from having the protection and privilidge of those uber strong major hardcore players and I was able to play and enjoy myself just fine.

I'll give you an example using names I make up off the top of my head:

The USA, England, Russia, China, Germany, and Japan are kingdoms in the game whose hardcore players got up at 3am when needed to win battles and conquer a lot of territory. They have tons of resources now because of it, and can exert economic and military influence around the entire game map so everyone always knows what's going on with them.

Meanwhile, there are lots of people happily playing in Thailand. Nobody outside the region hears a peep about all the political wackieness that goes on in Thailand because they're smaller and never do 3am wake up calls to expand their territory. A few...

Sort of correct except the majority of people that get up at 3.00 am are not hardcore, they fly a ship identical to all the others in their fleet built according to some fleet doctrine and either:

a) target who they are told to and press F1 to fire

OR

b) if in a carrier/droneboat assign all their drones to the one person (along with several hundred other players who do the same thing) and go make coffee/tea while that one person locks targets and presses F1 on behalf of everyone.

Goblin Squad Member

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Neadenil Edam wrote:

Sort of correct except the majority of people that get up at 3.00 am are not hardcore, they fly a ship identical to all the others in their fleet built according to some fleet doctrine and either:

a) target who they are told to and press F1 to fire

OR

b) if in a carrier/droneboat assign all their drones to the one person (along with several hundred other players who do the same thing) and go make coffee/tea while that one person locks targets and presses F1 on behalf of everyone.

That really defeats the purpose of multiplayer aspect of a game and meaningful social interaction.

Goblin Squad Member

Hardcore in that they allow events in-game to dictate when they wake up and log in. It's related to a discussion in the blog post and non-EVE players being worried they'll have to commit to 3am recalls to play PO at all. My example was to say no, you'll have to do that to be in the kingdoms with giant influence, but there's a ton of other game space to inhabit that doesn't make those demands on you.

Ryan just said PO will have a lot more frontier areas without bottlenecks so explorers are taken care of, any well-trained industrialist has a relatively easy time finding a home, and an army soldier is signing up to fight when and where the orders come down. The bandits roam free and heck PO may even get Reavers (I'm pulling for the option).

Goblin Squad Member

Banesama wrote:
Neadenil Edam wrote:

Sort of correct except the majority of people that get up at 3.00 am are not hardcore, they fly a ship identical to all the others in their fleet built according to some fleet doctrine and either:

a) target who they are told to and press F1 to fire

OR

b) if in a carrier/droneboat assign all their drones to the one person (along with several hundred other players who do the same thing) and go make coffee/tea while that one person locks targets and presses F1 on behalf of everyone.

That really defeats the purpose of multiplayer aspect of a game and meaningful social interaction.

I disagree. Uniform fleets make it easier for leaders to estimate what they can and can't do as the tactical situation changes rapidly. Every meatspace military also aspires to be as uniform as possible, they even call them "uniforms". There was a ton of meaningful interaction that led up to that battle and will be again after a victor is apparent.

PO won't have to worry about fleets of gigantic capital ships getting dropped on your head with only a few seconds notice. Still, the official settlement armies are going to end up using standardized armor, weapons, and skills for their formation combat because that makes them work better and win more in that moment that is deciding the context of the post-war meaningful interactions.

You can have your haphazard willy nilly rebel alliance but for them to win is going to take a gigantic ocean between them and King George or the enemy built a gigantic open pit from the Emperor's chamber directly to the energy core (and also ventilation shafts the size of womp rats on the exterior).

Goblin Squad Member

Thats the thing. Will you have to do those things to play the game and enjoy it? No you shouldnt.

Will you have to do those things to be able to compete to be the biggest, best, and bamfest organization....yes.

A pve example would be WoW raids. Many people raid in wow, many people make it through a lot of raid content. Most people are not getting world and server firsts and most people are not clearing the final heroic raid content.

Thats what this will be like. People will be able to play, but if you dont put in massive amounts of time and effort you wont ever be competitive at a world first level.

not only that but i think that a lot of people are thinking that this will be a mostly pve game and pvp is just a side if you choose to be involved with it. This is a pvp focused game. PvP is the central theme of the game. GW is going to do their best so that its not a free for all, but in general you will mostly always be in danger of pvp, regardless if you want it or not. I think people were expecting pve server wow with flagged/instanced pvp for settlements.

Goblin Squad Member

With just one server, and all settlements will have to have a known PvP window. It is likely that some I opportune time will arise when your settlement is vulnerable. It is always 3:00 AM somewhere.

Goblin Squad Member

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In WoW you can do nothing useful, you are nothing without your tier 10 purples; or whatever, you can tell how long it's been for me.

That mindset is a sickness in this type of game (and kind of in WoW too, but focusing on how it is for this game). Don't get attached to your gear because as soon as playing the game gets really fun and interesting you likely won't have that gear much longer.

Now think of your outpost. Let the attachments go. Let your fear of loss drift away in the breeze. All you need is your Pharasmic body, the skill you've accumulated and a few starter items from the NPC town and you can rebuild another grand empire. Liberating, isn't it?

Now think of your settlement. Read the advertisements that say it's a game of empire building not empire keeping. Okay breathe.

Last thing is the automatic victim-of-evil-demons mindset. Everyone worried about their settlement being attacked, will also be attacking other settlements. No one here is logging in as the goat tied to a post to feed the T Rex. The attempts at weakening and occasional decisive battle will come and soetimes you will bring them to other settlements and it will be fun.

Goblin Squad Member

leperkhaun wrote:
Many people raid in wow, many people make it through a lot of raid content. Most people are not getting world and server firsts and most people are not clearing the final heroic raid content.

I'll be content if the amount of content in PFO that's gated by my not playing the intense large-kingdom game (in my mind, our equivalent of raids) is about the same as what I missed by not raiding when I played WOW.

Goblin Squad Member

Mm. Not sure I would count on that. If some big outfit is claiming all the territory and passes laws against trespassing we may be out of room.

Goblin Squad Member

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Proxima Sin wrote:
Banesama wrote:
Neadenil Edam wrote:

Sort of correct except the majority of people that get up at 3.00 am are not hardcore, they fly a ship identical to all the others in their fleet built according to some fleet doctrine and either:

a) target who they are told to and press F1 to fire

OR

b) if in a carrier/droneboat assign all their drones to the one person (along with several hundred other players who do the same thing) and go make coffee/tea while that one person locks targets and presses F1 on behalf of everyone.

That really defeats the purpose of multiplayer aspect of a game and meaningful social interaction.

I disagree. Uniform fleets make it easier for leaders to estimate what they can and can't do as the tactical situation changes rapidly. Every meatspace military also aspires to be as uniform as possible, they even call them "uniforms". There was a ton of meaningful interaction that led up to that battle and will be again after a victor is apparent.

PO won't have to worry about fleets of gigantic capital ships getting dropped on your head with only a few seconds notice. Still, the official settlement armies are going to end up using standardized armor, weapons, and skills for their formation combat because that makes them work better and win more in that moment that is deciding the context of the post-war meaningful interactions.

You can have your haphazard willy nilly rebel alliance but for them to win is going to take a gigantic ocean between them and King George or the enemy built a gigantic open pit from the Emperor's chamber directly to the energy core (and also ventilation shafts the size of womp rats on the exterior).

The (a) is acceptable but boring. The (b) however is pitiful. Any feature that allows you to give control of your character (or ship in EVE) over to another character while you go do something else is just horrible practice within a game intended for social interaction (MMO).

Goblin Squad Member

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@ Proxima Sin

Thank you. I was thinking about putting something similar up but you have done it much more eloquently than I ever could. All of this doom and gloom about super powers and even bandits might make some of us forget that while all of this is happening, it won't be EVERYWHERE and All the time.

It doesn't do GW or PfO any good for the game to boil down to a few superpowers running the whole world. I don't think that they will let it go there.

Goblin Squad Member

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Banesama wrote:


The (a) is acceptable but boring. The (b) however is pitiful. Any feature that allows you to give control of your character (or ship in EVE) over to another character while you go do something else is just horrible practice within a game intended for social interaction (MMO).

Yeah but its a fantastic system for this MMO I have always wanted to make...Religion Quest! Its somewhere between EVE and Risk with all the major religions as factions.

The business model is 10% of the player's earnings and all they do is hand over their character to someone else to play!

WIN$$$$$$$!!!

Goblin Squad Member

Jazzlvraz wrote:
I'll be content if the amount of content in PFO that's gated by my not playing the intense large-kingdom game (in my mind, our equivalent of raids) is about the same as what I missed by not raiding when I played WOW.

Agree with this- I had a great time playing wow back in 2006, only some pvp and lower-level raiding. However, one of the things that made it great for me was the ability to do roam freely, doing quests/gathering items for crafting/training skills/making money/playing with friends.

What I'm worried about is this:

Being wrote:
Mm. Not sure I would count on that. If some big outfit is claiming all the territory and passes laws against trespassing we may be out of room.

Seems like traveling pretty much anywhere is going to be prohibitively dangerous. Ryan Dancey said in a recent thread (can't remember which) that he expects most settlements to have a Not Blue Shoot It (NBSI) policy. In other words, most places will be off-limits simply because you risk getting jumped as soon as you enter someone else's territory.

I haven't been very involved in PfO since I backed the kickstarter last year, so my idea of the game might be a little different, though.

What I basically imaged would be that the hardcore players would be the kings/lords/knights whatever of the world, playing the high-stakes game of thrones, essentially taking on the roles of NPCs in tabletop games.

Those players will in turn create content for everyone else (the more casual players) who can roam the world as adventurers and take on quests at different settlements (like, clear out monsters during escalation cycles, fetch item X, kill player Y, gather a certain amount of Z, or even more intense assignments like "help sabotage our rival settlements by destroying their PoI/roads being built/cause a distraction by attacking NPCs within their settlements").

This way there would be room for both the EVE-style players that wanna engage in all-out war, as well as the more tabletop-oriented players who just want to enjoy questing in a world of dynamically created content (which I think definitely classifies as "meaningful interaction" between players).

tl;dr: Will I, as a casual player, be able to roam and explore the map without constantly being ganked for trespassing?


I can't speak for all groups nor am I trying to however this is certainly how we work in Eve and how we would work in PfO in all probability

All the resources whether gathering style mats or pve style resources such as escalations and instances within territory we control is reserved for our settlement (or nation) members.

We work on the theory that there will not be enough of either type of resource to satisfy the demands of our members so we feel there is no good reason to tolerate others using them.

To that end it is very likely we would make the assumption that anyone in our lands is there potentially as a poacher and treat them accordingly

Goblin Squad Member

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Steelwing --Wouldn't it make as much sense to think of anyone in your lands is a potential customer?? Wouldn't the merchants in your town be happy to sell some item they've made or buy some resource that the visitor has?? I put my money into the kickstarter for PFO very happy that I'd be able to adventure in the world of Golarion. Now it seems that to enjoy the game I have to submit to the bigger bullies around or become one of those bigger bullies myself. If that's the case, I guess I will just have to write off support as a learning experience.


GarinT wrote:
Steelwing --Wouldn't it make as much sense to think of anyone in your lands is a potential customer?? Wouldn't the merchants in your town be happy to sell some item they've made or buy some resource that the visitor has?? I put my money into the kickstarter for PFO very happy that I'd be able to adventure in the world of Golarion. Now it seems that to enjoy the game I have to submit to the bigger bullies around or become one of those bigger bullies myself. If that's the case, I guess I will just have to write off support as a learning experience.

I did point out I was speaking for my group alone. Other groups may try to keep themselves more open for the reasons you state, for instance I believe Pax have stated an intention to be a trade empire. We do not feel that trade is something we will need to be heavily involved in at our settlements. We do expect one of the NPC settlements to become the "goto" trade hubs just like the major trade hubs in Eve are in the npc area's.

Pathfinder Online has always been first and foremost a game of settlement warfare and territorial domination. That is the game that we will be playing should we come.

Goblin Squad Member

Serensius wrote:
Seems like traveling pretty much anywhere is going to be prohibitively dangerous. Ryan Dancey said in a recent thread (can't remember which) that he expects most settlements to have a Not Blue Shoot It (NBSI) policy. In other words, most places will be off-limits simply because you risk getting jumped as soon as you enter someone else's territory.

It was stated long ago (so caveats: many things change) that road hexes cannot be claimed by settlements. We will be able to travel, we may however not be able to do much but travel unless we attach to a settlement with some room.


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Being wrote:
Serensius wrote:
Seems like traveling pretty much anywhere is going to be prohibitively dangerous. Ryan Dancey said in a recent thread (can't remember which) that he expects most settlements to have a Not Blue Shoot It (NBSI) policy. In other words, most places will be off-limits simply because you risk getting jumped as soon as you enter someone else's territory.
It was stated long ago (so caveats: many things change) that road hexes cannot be claimed by settlements. We will be able to travel, we may however not be able to do much but travel unless we attach to a settlement with some room.

Just because there is no mechanic to claim a hex whether road or otherwise do not for a moment think that settlements will not choose to exercise control over those hexes they consider strategic. I would expect road hexes to be in that category certainly

Goblin Squad Member

Excessive restrictions on player freedoms will lead to regulations. Watch.


Being wrote:
Excessive restrictions on player freedoms will lead to regulations. Watch.

The only choice they will be able to make is make road hexes ones in which you cannot PVP at all. That will bring about far more problems than it solves. As long as players can pvp in a road hex players can exercise control of that hex and there isn't a thing you can do about it

Goblin Squad Member

Steelwing wrote:
Being wrote:
Excessive restrictions on player freedoms will lead to regulations. Watch.
The only choice they will be able to make is make road hexes ones in which you cannot PVP at all. That will bring about far more problems than it solves. As long as players can pvp in a road hex players can exercise control of that hex and there isn't a thing you can do about it

I don't believe you know enough to make that pronouncement.


Being wrote:
Steelwing wrote:
Being wrote:
Excessive restrictions on player freedoms will lead to regulations. Watch.
The only choice they will be able to make is make road hexes ones in which you cannot PVP at all. That will bring about far more problems than it solves. As long as players can pvp in a road hex players can exercise control of that hex and there isn't a thing you can do about it
I don't believe you know enough to make that pronouncement.

If pvp is allowed in the road hex the flow of traffic can be controlled by it. There is no way to stop it.

If pvp is disallowed in road hexes players cannot control those hexes but it cuts out all banditry etc. Allows your enemies safe uninterrupted passage and supply routes.

Goblinworks Executive Founder

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Steelwing wrote:
Being wrote:
Steelwing wrote:
Being wrote:
Excessive restrictions on player freedoms will lead to regulations. Watch.
The only choice they will be able to make is make road hexes ones in which you cannot PVP at all. That will bring about far more problems than it solves. As long as players can pvp in a road hex players can exercise control of that hex and there isn't a thing you can do about it
I don't believe you know enough to make that pronouncement.

If pvp is allowed in the road hex the flow of traffic can be controlled by it. There is no way to stop it.

If pvp is disallowed in road hexes players cannot control those hexes but it cuts out all banditry etc. Allows your enemies safe uninterrupted passage and supply routes.

There are two different points here: One is that a group can establish force majeur anywhere they are not prevented from doing so.

The other is about a game system that recognizes that a group has a claim to an area, and makes the cost structure in that area asymmetrical in favor of the controlling group. (e.g. by allowing the settlement leaders to declare interlopers trespassers, and not having reputation effects for killing trespassers.)


DeciusBrutus wrote:
Steelwing wrote:
Being wrote:
Steelwing wrote:
Being wrote:
Excessive restrictions on player freedoms will lead to regulations. Watch.
The only choice they will be able to make is make road hexes ones in which you cannot PVP at all. That will bring about far more problems than it solves. As long as players can pvp in a road hex players can exercise control of that hex and there isn't a thing you can do about it
I don't believe you know enough to make that pronouncement.

If pvp is allowed in the road hex the flow of traffic can be controlled by it. There is no way to stop it.

If pvp is disallowed in road hexes players cannot control those hexes but it cuts out all banditry etc. Allows your enemies safe uninterrupted passage and supply routes.

There are two different points here: One is that a group can establish force majeur anywhere they are not prevented from doing so.

The other is about a game system that recognizes that a group has a claim to an area, and makes the cost structure in that area asymmetrical in favor of the controlling group. (e.g. by allowing the settlement leaders to declare interlopers trespassers, and not having reputation effects for killing trespassers.)

Where the settlement mechanics allow us to set NBSI we have no problems. Outside that area where we believe we can control we make use of unacceptable SAD's. If that fails we have a squad of CE low rep alts to take out the people. It is no huge problem

Liberty's Edge Goblin Squad Member

Steelwing wrote:
Where the settlement mechanics allow us to set NBSI we have no problems. Outside that area where we believe we can control we make use of unacceptable SAD's. If that fails we have a squad of CE low rep alts to take out the people. It is no huge problem

Which is really breaking the spirit of the game. If you're using alts and abusing game mechanics just to exert force, you are skirting the lines to where I could see GW starting to ban accounts for griefing.


What game mechanics are we abusing here....SAD is legitimate. A group in the same area of CE people is legitimate. You might have a point if the bandits were logging off and logging back on as alts but we don't need to do that.

Liberty's Edge Goblin Squad Member

SADs are legitimate, but using (as you put it) "unacceptable" SADs for the express purpose of exerting control on an area you can't claim as your own is sketchy. And if the settlement that is exerting this control is Lawful and yet the players are using CE alts to enforce this control. . . . That would be abuse.

But I expect that such extremes aren't likely. Bandits are expected and merchants will deal with them as they deem necessary.


Drakhan Valane wrote:

SADs are legitimate, but using (as you put it) "unacceptable" SADs for the express purpose of exerting control on an area you can't claim as your own is sketchy. And if the settlement that is exerting this control is Lawful and yet the players are using CE alts to enforce this control. . . . That would be abuse.

But I expect that such extremes aren't likely. Bandits are expected and merchants will deal with them as they deem necessary.

Bandits can demand as much or as little as the sad allows....how is that sketchy? If I can ask for 70% of cargo value then I can ask for 70%


As to the CE alts...if they aren't part of the settlement what is the abuse. They suffer from the effect of being low rep and ce as intended. That is not being subverted

Goblin Squad Member

Steelwing wrote:
DeciusBrutus wrote:
Steelwing wrote:
Being wrote:
Steelwing wrote:
Being wrote:
Excessive restrictions on player freedoms will lead to regulations. Watch.
The only choice they will be able to make is make road hexes ones in which you cannot PVP at all. That will bring about far more problems than it solves. As long as players can pvp in a road hex players can exercise control of that hex and there isn't a thing you can do about it
I don't believe you know enough to make that pronouncement.

If pvp is allowed in the road hex the flow of traffic can be controlled by it. There is no way to stop it.

If pvp is disallowed in road hexes players cannot control those hexes but it cuts out all banditry etc. Allows your enemies safe uninterrupted passage and supply routes.

There are two different points here: One is that a group can establish force majeur anywhere they are not prevented from doing so.

The other is about a game system that recognizes that a group has a claim to an area, and makes the cost structure in that area asymmetrical in favor of the controlling group. (e.g. by allowing the settlement leaders to declare interlopers trespassers, and not having reputation effects for killing trespassers.)

Where the settlement mechanics allow us to set NBSI we have no problems. Outside that area where we believe we can control we make use of unacceptable SAD's. If that fails we have a squad of CE low rep alts to take out the people. It is no huge problem

That would only further the argument for REP to be account based. I am not sold on that concept but your language don't not help.

For starters one could assume certainty that one alt would find it easier to grind positive REP than the alt that sunk it so low.

Liberty's Edge Goblin Squad Member

Vwoom wrote:

That would only further the argument for REP to be account based. I am not sold on that concept but your language don't not help.

For starters one could assume certainty that one alt would find it easier to grind positive REP than the alt that sunk it so low.

Easily circumvented by multiple accounts.


Vwoom wrote:


That would only further the argument for REP to be account based. I am not sold on that concept but your language don't not help.

For starters one could assume certainty that one alt would find it easier to grind positive REP than the alt that sunk it so low.

Well you could argue that certainly but it wouldn't help you in anyway shape or form. I see no reason to not have multiple accounts as I do in Eve and despite them saying you can log on multiple characters from one account I see absolutely no advantage in doing so.

Account wide reputation therefore is not going to affect me or anyone else that feels a low rep alt is something they want to run.

As a note before you suggest it

each of my eve accounts is registered to a different email address
A different payment method none of which are in my name
Accessed using a different proxy

Good luck tying them together

Hell I don't even logon to this website from the same ip two nights running

Liberty's Edge Goblin Squad Member

That's an intense level of paranoia.


Drakhan Valane wrote:
That's an intense level of paranoia.

I always use prepaid credit cards for games because it is easier to limit your exposure when a game subscription despite being cancelled somehow continues to get taken

I use proxies routinely for my day job and frankly it actually takes effort to go from my actual IP address. Everytime I connect to an internet service it selects one from a list of several hundred proxy services to use.

All my browsing goes through a proxy then routed via TOR as a routine because I send work emails and do research from here and for various reasons it cannot be traced back to my ip address.

Nothing to do with paranoia it is mainly common sense and work related

Liberty's Edge Goblin Squad Member

Sounds like the kind of work I used to do, honestly. But I couldn't do it from home.


Drakhan Valane wrote:
Sounds like the kind of work I used to do, honestly. But I couldn't do it from home.

Having said all that there are certainly people here who shall we say have shadowy pasts either on the wrong side of the law or working for government organisations with 3 letter acronyms so a certain level of misdirection certainly does not hurt :)

Goblin Squad Member

Steelwing wrote:
Hell I don't even logon to this website from the same ip two nights running

I bet you are fun to have a beer with!


KitNyx wrote:
Steelwing wrote:
Hell I don't even logon to this website from the same ip two nights running
I bet you are fun to have a beer with!

Not quite sure I see the connection there but I have been known to quaff and sing and sometimes even dance (but only when I can embarrass a teenage daughter by insisting she joins me in the mosh pit)

Goblin Squad Member

Steelwing wrote:
What game mechanics are we abusing here....SAD is legitimate. A group in the same area of CE people is legitimate. You might have a point if the bandits were logging off and logging back on as alts but we don't need to do that.

What you're talking about is the kind of skirting the edge of the rules playing the system against itself to your benefit nonsense that lead Ryan Dancey to say GW will be unpredictable in who and when they censure (so you don't know where the line is to manipulate it).


Proxima Sin wrote:
Steelwing wrote:
What game mechanics are we abusing here....SAD is legitimate. A group in the same area of CE people is legitimate. You might have a point if the bandits were logging off and logging back on as alts but we don't need to do that.
What you're talking about is the kind of skirting the edge of the rules playing the system against itself to your benefit nonsense that lead Ryan Dancey to say GW will be unpredictable in who and when they censure (so you don't know where the line is to manipulate it).

GW will do nothing.

Three reasons

1) They can't tell the difference between some random CE players attacking people in a hex and our CE alts attacking someone in a hex. Remember this is not a settlement controlled hex in addition and there is no actual guarantee our bandit characters will be tied to our settlement either. In fact we may even have them being lodged as a sponsored company of a completely different settlement. Remember the point here is to make the hex NBSI so they just ignore people we know are blue to our real settlement.

2) Even if they can tell assume we have 20 CE alts and a settlement of 500. Who are they going to ban? Can't see them banning the entire settlement can you? With no way to tie those CE people to us in general or anyone in particular the best they can do is ban the ce alts which are low rep low training anyway so we just start a new account

3) The CE alts will rarely go into action in any case as we will be sadding for the maximum amount and there is the not one copper movement espoused by bringslite and Nihimon ensuring that we are probably going to have our sad refused anyway

Goblin Squad Member

Steelwing wrote:
KitNyx wrote:
Steelwing wrote:
Hell I don't even logon to this website from the same ip two nights running
I bet you are fun to have a beer with!
Not quite sure I see the connection there but I have been known to quaff and sing and sometimes even dance (but only when I can embarrass a teenage daughter by insisting she joins me in the mosh pit)

Sorry posted quickly without my usual self edit, I have a garden path type of humor that few get, I should not have even tried. My intent was a compliment and a bit of taunt for the paranoid. Cheers.


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KitNyx wrote:
Steelwing wrote:
KitNyx wrote:
Steelwing wrote:
Hell I don't even logon to this website from the same ip two nights running
I bet you are fun to have a beer with!
Not quite sure I see the connection there but I have been known to quaff and sing and sometimes even dance (but only when I can embarrass a teenage daughter by insisting she joins me in the mosh pit)
Sorry posted without thinking, I have a garden path type of humor that few get, I should not have even tried. My intent was a compliment and a bit of taunt for the paranoid. Cheers.

No worries wasnt quite sure so I answered as best I could :)

Goblin Squad Member

Steelwing wrote:
Pathfinder Online has always been first and foremost a game of settlement warfare and territorial domination. That is the game that we will be playing should we come.

When I discovered the kickstarter project just before it ended and got my credit card out, the description on the Goblins Works page described it thusly (And still says on GW's home page)

An exciting new era in gaming begins with Pathfinder Online, a next-generation Massively Multiplayer Online fantasy roleplaying game currently in development from Goblinworks in partnership with Paizo Publishing!

Pathfinder Online is a hybrid sandbox/theme park-style MMO where characters explore, develop, find adventure and dominate a wilderness frontier in a land of sword and sorcery. The Pathfinder world is high fantasy in the tradition of epics like The Lord of the Rings, Conan, the Wheel of Time and Game of Thrones.

Warfare and Domination seemed to be just part of the game concept, not the only reason behind the game. This is why I feel so disheartened aboout the game.


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GarinT wrote:
Steelwing wrote:
Pathfinder Online has always been first and foremost a game of settlement warfare and territorial domination. That is the game that we will be playing should we come.

When I discovered the kickstarter project just before it ended and got my credit card out, the description on the Goblins Works page described it thusly (And still says on GW's home page)

An exciting new era in gaming begins with Pathfinder Online, a next-generation Massively Multiplayer Online fantasy roleplaying game currently in development from Goblinworks in partnership with Paizo Publishing!

Pathfinder Online is a hybrid sandbox/theme park-style MMO where characters explore, develop, find adventure and dominate a wilderness frontier in a land of sword and sorcery. The Pathfinder world is high fantasy in the tradition of epics like The Lord of the Rings, Conan, the Wheel of Time and Game of Thrones.

Warfare and Domination seemed to be just part of the game concept, not the only reason behind the game. This is why I feel so disheartened aboout the game.

I certainly would not defend the kickstarter page in terms of what it said. I read between the lines and assumed mostly it would be similar to Eve null sec. That however is certainly not your fault.

All the things you want in the game will be available and I hope I did not give you the impression they wouldn't be. What I was trying to communicate was that settlement membership in a game like this is hugely important as an enabler.

(Personal opinion incoming)
A settlement provides your social base. It provides the people you rely on to do those tasks to big to tackle alone. It is key to the enjoyment of a game like this. Those that try to play as part of a small detached group or as solo players are missing out in my view.

The guild thread has many fine organisations which will have different degrees of success in the Pathfinder Online game and my recommendation is to find one you like the look of and sign up. The top three currently are I believe The Seventh veil, TEO and the Pax group. There are also some small organisations.

I have no idea what your current mmo experience is if any but my advice is start looking at the larger picture. Select a group who's ambitions you agree with and join them. Unlike theme parks your success in game is almost totally down to picking and working with a good organisation with good people in it

Goblin Squad Member

Steelwing wrote:
I have no idea what your current mmo experience

I first began playing RPGs -- original D&D -- in the summer of 75 when a character could be generated in just 5 minutes. I first started playing MMOs with Ultima Online. Have been playing Lord of Rings Online the first week it was available going on 7 yrs ago. Began playing WOW before that and still do off and on. I am by nature an Introvert and due to some disabilities, hands that aren't especially useful at times, my gaming style tends towards solo/very casual grouping.

I have no desire to dictate to anyone else how they should play a game that they are paying for (I am a subscriber to both LOTRO and WOW and feel that the F2P has hurt the game significantly) just hope that when all is said and done, there is room for me and for others like me.

I have been reading with some interest (and some horror <grin>) the various threads and see so much speculation and verbal nitpicking on the posts coming from GW. The hundreds of posts on SAD alone have kept me enthralled for hours. And to add to the mix, if there is going to be SAD then why not also have HAC (Hue and Cry) as a counter to it.

I've just about gotten to the point of ignoring it all until GW starts chiseling things in STONE and saying plainly how things will work.

Goblin Squad Member

@Garin, my personal intent when picking GW posts for details and speculating on their plans is moreso just to keep myself active in the PFO project as a whole and to have something interesting to talk about with these other fine people. Many of the arguments are only about how people think something should be, not about how it will be, even if some people don't realize this during the arguing.

An important benefit of crowdforging (in my opinion) is to get the views of many different people on a subject, and to have this group of people generate your list of pros, cons, and possible problems with any given system, completely of their own volition, which is much more cost effective than hiring a large team of designers to hash things out (although much less professional and coherent!).

Goblin Squad Member

one important thing to remember is that in pfo you wont auto alert a settlement when you step into it. So while in eve unless you are outfitted properly when you enter a system you show up on local and everyone can run to take you out. In PfO unless you try to enter the settlement or run into a member you could be walking around without them ever knowing you are there.

I suspect that controlling territory will involve more active and constant patrols or people out to really make sure no one can move through it.

so if you are good you might be able to make it work

As to road/wilderness hexes, the largest settlements will take over ones they consider valuable to them and are close enough to their powerbase so they can exercise power over it (meaning you show up they go after you). I dont think a lot of settlements will do this though, the biggest probably will.

however remember that they have to go into a PvP hex they dont directly control in order to do that. They set up bandits? Well those bandits are targets for others. they let loose with low rep CE folks, remember that those low rep CE folks probably wont have as nice training as other people (due to rep requirements to get into settlements and such). not only that but those alts are also targets. So at the end of the day unless that large settlement wants to expose themselves directly and risk getting flagged, it will be possible to contest them on these types of hexes and force them to either declare war on you or expend lots of resources/manpower to secure it....plus all the other ones you would be doing this to.

Goblin Squad Member

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@ steelwing

Exactly how many new game codes do you think your group will be willing to purchase when your CE alt accounts get banned?

The world (Golarion) will be a much smaller universe than EVE's. It will far easier to associate, evaluate, and subsequently ban people or groups for play styles the GW does not like in PfO. It is quite clear that a great many of the approaches that you have described are outside the play style that GW wants.

There may well be ways to try the things that you have laid out or other ways to do them. It certainly does not mean that they will not be opposed, by players and sometimes by the OWNERS.

Remember, very little is defined exactly for us yet. The things that you think will work would wreck the game play that has been described.

I don't think it would fly for very long.

Goblin Squad Member

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@GarinT

I feel you. Since Steelwing arrived with his EVE corp view from null sec and how they do things it has seemed a bit grim for those not into that play style. Almost like greifing (@Steelwing, not actual greifing, but I would say you are the most combative and righteous in your views but precisely careful as well) the forums with a come back for every positive post or constructive idea to give the impression of a game completely geared towards his groups gaming style of dominate EVERYTHING with ways around any system designed so that it doesn't work that way. That works for them and will be the part of the game they focus on. I like reading his posts because they give a view I think we all need to hear.

There will be groups like that...but some of us are focusing on what we hope other parts of the game will be, a richer world with more to do than kill or dominate everyone else in the most serial killer type mechanical unfeeling fashion possible. The game for them is to game the system and "win" for whatever that means to them. The game for me is a Fantasy Sandbox to build, create, play, socialize, explore and fight in both PVE and PVP ways. There will definitely be groups like that as well as even Steelwing mentioned.

We are all looking forward to this game and I think we will all have fun at it and it will not be nearly as bleak of a picture as is painted on these boards at times.

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