Like the title says Im trying to make my first gestalt character and decided that I want it to me a zen archer + something else. Ive been wanting to try zen archer for a while now and this seems like the perfect time :3 My first idea was to make it a zen archer+Sniper rouge so I could Sneak Attack on a Flurry of Blows but making a workable sniper character seems to have proven too difficult and inconsistent. So next I thought of going a zen archer + Paladin but there really arnt any archtypes for paladin archers and splitting stats between Wisdom Strength Dex and Charisma was obv way too thin. Fighter Archer is an option too but seems a little weak, I dont know.
Any advice or ideas to sway my opinion would be greatly appriciated as im very much stuck :(
Also I want this character to go down the combat reflexes -> Improved Snapshot line so I do need him to have a half decent dex.
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Generally the route to go with gestalt is to broaden your horizons rather than hyper-specialize (though that is a route you could pursue as well).
I would suggest a Wisdom-based caster as your other half though, Cleric/Druid/Sorcerer (with Empyreal bloodline). There's also Inquisitor.
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Usually in gestalt you should balance a martial with a caster. Cleric or Sorcerer both work well. WIS based Sorcerer makes a bit more sense to me as you already won't be wearing any armour, you don't need the weapon proficiencies and as a primary DPS you shouldn't be channeling. Thus it comes down to the spell list and the Sorc spell list is superior to the Cleric spell list.
Because you'll be doing your damage via your bow, make sure to pick up buffs and crowd control with your sorc rather than damage spells.
*edit*
Why are people suggesting Druid? He is a *Zen Archer* Monk, and wildshaping means he can't use his bow. Why would he do that?
Druids are a powerful class even without using Wildshape for combat. You get an animal companion to screen for you, full lvl9 casting, and you can still use WS for movement types/senses.
I second inquisitor as an excellent choice, though the teamwork feats aren't a good, probably, for you as they are others.
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Empyreal Sorcerer, yes.
Maybe a few levels of Arcane Archer for the Imbue Arrows thing.
Also OP says there aren't any archetypes for Paladin archers. Oh yes there is. Divine Hunter is the ultimate smiter archer. But he is right it doesn't work well with Monk.
Sorcerer or Cleric are easily the best options.
Does your GM have any problems with allowing Prestige Classes? Mine didn't see a problem, so I'd suggest a Zen Archer plus Arcane Archer Build. I can PM you a link to the build online if you wish.
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My gut actually says to go with Ranger for Spell access based off WIS, full BAB, and all of the free archery feats your little heart could ever want.
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A Zen Archer Monk is perfectly self-sufficient in providing all the feats you'll ever want in Archery, so I wouldn't think Ranger or Fighter would be necessary.
Also, you Flurry as a Full BAB class, so that doesn't do much for you (CMB and CMD, standard attack actions... But eh.)
I would say you should go one of two routes: Cleric/Druid/Sorcerer or Inquisitor.
That's basically what it would come down to for me. Either go for full caster with very few class features boosting your archery, or go with the mediocre spellcasting with a bunch of class features that compliment you.
Let's see what an Inquisitor has to offer compared to a full caster.
+6 Skill Ranks per level and more Class Skills
Judgments to improve archery
Bane class feature to improve archery (Absolutely fantastic, by the way)
Stalwart class feature (Add in Ring of Evasion and that's all 3 saves!)
+Wisdom to Initiative
+Wisdom to Knowledge Checks
Wisdom instead of Charisma to Bluff, Diplomacy, and Intimidate (If taking the Conversion Inquisition)
Some casting
Well, you can read the rest, but yeah. Inquisitor is tough to beat, it takes your archery up to a whole new level, makes you even more durable and you're going to almost always act first.
On the other hand, there's full casting. Which is absolutely fantastic and shouldn't be dismissed in the slightest. However, personal preference, if I had the opportunity to Gestalt, I would go for something with a lot of synergy rather than two aspects that are individually powerful.
ZAM is amazing. Full casters are amazing. Both on the same character? Well, better than either I guess, but you can't cast AND flurry on the same turn, so limited synergy.
ZAM is amazing. Inquisitor is good. Both on the same character? Absolutely fantastic. The Inquisitor really enhances everything you love about being a ZAM.
A Zen Archer Monk is perfectly self-sufficient in providing all the feats you'll ever want in Archery, so I wouldn't think Ranger or Fighter would be necessary.
There's nothing wrong with hyper-specialising if you can make it work...for example, monk (sohei) | fighter would combine seven levels of weapon training, fighter feats, and the ability to flurry-of-blows with any weapon you have weapon training in.
Crap, I think I just found a way to break melee classes...
What about ranger? Full bab for those levels you don't get bonus feats it also gets you a ton of random nice feats earlier than you normally could. Once you've got your slew of feats you have ranger casting for gravity bow. Imagine getting point blank master at the same level you get improved precise shot (level 6). Then at 7 getting clustered shots because yay full bab.
While I do agree that casters such as cleric/druid/emp bloodline sorcerer work perfectly well it boils down to what you want. Do you want to hyper specialize on archery (ranger/fighter/mounted archer cavalier) or do you want to broaden your horizons (casting)?
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I would say go druid/monk for optimization.
Druids and Monks were literally meant to be together. Their synergy is kind of sickening for a Martial. Stupid high saves and AC, and 12d8 IUS damage per hit for upwards of 15 attacks? Yeah, I'll take that.
You should try to convince your GM that there is a God of Firearms you can worship, then take Crusader's Flurry, and go Zen Archer/Gunslinger. ;)
Infiltration Inquisitor with the Conversion Heresy might work if your party needs a face. You'll be adding Wisdom to your AC, Attack rolls, Intimidate and twice on your Bluff/Diplomacy. Not as optimized, but I think the most optimized solutions have already been proposed.
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There actually IS a minor deity of firearms. I think he's LE though.
LE is not a problem for Monks, but who is this deity? I can't find one.
The closest fit I could find is Brigh, goddess of invention and clockwork. She has the Artifice and Knwledge domains, which seem a fie fit for the technologically minded. She is Neutral, so LN Monks are fine.
Who is this god of guns then? No mentioning any Alkenstar guides.
The sorcerer will give you Spell power. But what you want to do in battle is shooting your bow.
The druid will give you Wild shape and spells. Also cool in battle but not with a bow.
The ranger will give you 4 levels of spells where some of them will combine nicely with the bow.
The inquisitor will give you judgements, bane, and all kinds of special rules, teamwork feats on top of 6 levels of spells.
Ninja will give you sneek attack and ninja tricks. Some that can be powerfull with a good archer. You will have alot of arrows in the air and getting sneek attack on top of what the monk brings will be wicked.
I think the inquisitor will bring most, but that the ninja can be just as fun and very competative.
An interesting idea that works EXTREMLY well with the snapshot line is the "stalwart defender" prestige class. Bascially, if you stand still you get the benefits of an improved rage, and a bunch of defensive talents.
You could probably take 2 levels of fighter (unbreakable) for endurance & toughness, use monk bonus feats for dodge. Then continue in another full-bab class so that you can get into stalwart defender early. As I see it:
Zen archer ALL THE WAY// Fighter (unbreakable) 2 + Ranger (freebooter) 5
Would give you normal full bab, some cool defensive abilities, and turn you into an AOO black hole.
Id go druid, or something that will get you a mount. Nothing like flurrying and still moving 50 ft. Mounted combat opens up all sorts of nice defensive options. You can use ride to protect your mount and in dire circumstances even give yourself a bit extra ac by taking cover behind mount. Do Druid, Cleric(animal domain), or ranger. I like ranger because of d10 dice, the others are very nice though with casting. You could do the Evangelist cleric for bardic performance tacked on to each arrow.
do elementals have hands? does a wizard keep his "gear" when he polymorphs? sure, air/fire elementals may be ruled as unable to use manufactured weapon but earth is pretty solid.
See, the problem is that the polymorphing rules state that all transformations (except to a "humanoid" type) make your gear "meld" with your form; so weapons disappear, armor disappears, though you are still affected by some magical items. Only "monstrous physique" still allows you to wield your own weapons. People have quoted me that line in the CRB several times & I cant quite remember where to find it.
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straight Zen Archer on one side
other side= trapper ranger 6-> empyreal sorcerer 1-> arcane archer 10
at 17th level you're only -1 BAB (and full when flurrying) and cast at 8th level with all the crazy arcane archer abilities... plus you have trapfinding and a couple of ranger spells (for aspect of the falcon, use sorc spells for gravity bow...)
It depends on what you want out of your character. The one thing that is not going to add a lot of power is a martial class like fighter or ranger. Adding rouge or ninja is also not going to add that much power. What is going to add power is a wisdom based magical character. A druid works very well with a normal monk, but does not work as well with the Zen Archer. A cleric seems like a good idea and a full caster is hard to beat, but you will want at least some CHA so your channel energy is not useless. The cleric has some nice buffs but you can’t cast a spell and fire a bow at the same time. This leaves you with two choices an empyreal bloodline sorcerer, or an inquisitor.
The sorcerer is going to add a lot more power in the way of spells. They also have some spells that really work well to boost your combat ability like gravity bow and mage armor at low level. Other than some energy resistance and some minor feats you don’t gain much else of real use.
The inquisitor brings less power in his spells, but still has some useful spells like divine power, true strike, keen edge just to name a few. He also has a lot of out of combat spells like healing, invisibility, nondetection. His spells are going to be less powerful and versatile than a sorcerer. What he does have going for him is special ability’s that stack. A Zen Archer with a couple of buffs and both judgments and bane going is insane. You also get more skills and bonuses to three a bunch of skills. Taking the feat improved monster lore is going to give you the equivalent of 4 extra skill points per level
If you want to increase your overall power than a sorcerer is probably better. If you want to increase your archer to absurd levels than an inquisitor is probably better in the long run.
I'm making a similar miniboss in a game I am GM'ing. Zen Archer / Summoner with an eidolon climbing spider mount. Mounted Combat/Mounted Archery is your friend. This miniboss took a level dip (Zen Archer's side) into dragoon for armor, mounted combat feat, etc.
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You are most certainly allowed to Wield or Carry a weapon as long as you have the proper thumbs/hands to do so in whatever form.
It does meld with you though, unless you Drop it then Shift, then pick it up. That's perfectly legitimate. I don't think the weapon scales to fit your characters size if you happened to grow smaller or bigger, so beware.
If you want Air Elemental, not only would you be flying around pelting things, but with a big increase to your Dex mod - or for that matter if you changed into an Ape, you'd benefit even more from the Str mod increase if you were using a composite bow.
It's tricky, almost clunky, but it can be done.
Monk (zen archer) 20// Ranger (skirmisher) 10/Horizon Walker 10.
you give up ranger spellcasting (which to me is kinda pointless anyways) to snag 3 hunter's tricks (which are mostly pretty cool) & you can always ditch the companion to "bond" with your allies instead.
Horizon walker gives a ton of favorite terrains and some cool specialized abilities for some of them - or you could ditch this for all-out skirmisher 20 for more tricks.
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You are most certainly allowed to Wield or Carry a weapon as long as you have the proper thumbs/hands to do so in whatever form.
It does meld with you though, unless you Drop it then Shift, then pick it up. That's perfectly legitimate. I don't think the weapon scales to fit your characters size if you happened to grow smaller or bigger, so beware.
If you want Air Elemental, not only would you be flying around pelting things, but with a big increase to your Dex mod - or for that matter if you changed into an Ape, you'd benefit even more from the Str mod increase if you were using a composite bow.
It's tricky, almost clunky, but it can be done.
You need to be sure to drop your ammo as well as your bow when you shift, or it wont do you much good.
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I've used zen archer in several gestalts, best results I've gotten are as follows
Mirmadarch (sp?) magus: delivering touh spells via your arrows
Grenadier alchemist, look at your lvl 2 archetype ability, note that your extracts are alchemical items
Blaster sorcerer (using the wild blooded celestial for wisdom casting)/arcane archer
Trapper ranger at mid-late levels can put their traps on their arrows
I had a lvl 20 build that involved so many dice rolls it was insane I used all three of these builds, except the ranger, because there weren't enough levels, I mean I could have taken the levels out of zen archer but that was my core so I didn't
The build was
4 levels of magus, 2 of alchemist, 4 of sorcerer 10 of arcane archer, 20 of zen archer
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straight Zen Archer on one side
other side= trapper ranger 6-> empyreal sorcerer 1-> arcane archer 10at 17th level you're only -1 BAB (and full when flurrying) and cast at 8th level with all the crazy arcane archer abilities... plus you have trapfinding and a couple of ranger spells (for aspect of the falcon, use sorc spells for gravity bow...)
... Trappers don't get spells... They get traps
i'm an idiot... in my comment above, the ranger archetype should be Urban Ranger, not Trapper. other than that, its still a solid build.
i kind of like the alchemist idea too... mutagen and/or cognatogen will be a nice buff and the explosive missile discovery could be pretty nice. if your GM will let you use it with quick bombs you could nova like nobody else (ranged flurry of blows with a bomb on every arrow will be a huge amount of damage) though you'd blow through your bombs/day really quickly; even if you can't do that, an explossive arrow is a nice option when you can't flurry.
I'd forgo the sniper style and go full flurry style. Add in some specialized arrows to compliment the overall build and to add some utility.
As sure the other half of the character, I really like the inquisitor for the ZAM. It enhanced many of the great qualities of the build without wasting effort. Some teamwork feats work nicely, like Lookout, enfilading fire, or parting shot. Plus full casting.
The inquisition can also be a domain, so you can always take the feather domain and get an animal companion. If you want later you cab take, if your charisma is high though to take eldritch heritage, you can gain a familiar. Take improved familiar, get the arbiter (inevitable) + shield other makes it very hard to kill your archer.
However the familiar will be too spread out. But getting the animal companion is not too far out and court one feat, boon companion will finish out the companion. Feather domain also gives a perception bonus and an initiative bonus on the surprise round.
Wisdom to initiative, and to monster knowledge checks, or to diplomacy and intimidate. Synergizes very well.
I'm building a multiclass version of this now. I wish it was Gestalt! I've recently heard some good arguments in favor of specializing with gestalt characters. If you're casting spells you can't shoot and vice versa. It all depends on how versatile you want to be. I'd go straight ZAM on one side and dip fest the other side.
While this character sounds very WIS SAD, what do you rally want to dump? CON... less HP. DEX... you need it for the first two levels and for Initiative and AC (even though WIS helps out). STR... you need a mighty composite bow. INT... only if you don't care about skills. I have a hard time dumping any stat for all my characters. Be an Aasimar. That helps with stats.
You can take barbarian levels if you are an Aasimar. They have a trait that actually allows you to take monk levels with a N alignment. I took two levels of Serene Barbarian (3rd party). Serenity buffs your WIS and DEX instead of STR and CON. Not as good as rage for attacking since the bonus is only +2 to hit and nothing to damage, but you do get +4 to AC, so it's like a free mage armor spell and +2 to all saves. Also, you could select the Scent rage power at Bar 2 and get +2/+2 when you use pheromone arrows. Works great if you have a regular barbarian in the party with the same rage power. A d12 HD and fast movement are nice additions too, but two levels is probably all you need.
If that doesn't work for you, I've heard good things about Divine Hunter Paladin. Smite is good and CHA to saves is good. No reason you couldn't have 14 CHA in a short time.
One level of Empyreal Sorcerer is all you really need to give you Gravity Bow and Mage Armor or Magic Weapon, or whatever else you want. Go tattooed and get a familiar that gives you +4 Initiative.
I like Inquisitor a lot. There is a lot of synergy. Inq 5 gives you bane vs whatever you want. Great!
Ninja is better than rogue simply because it adds to your Ki pool. Sneak attack is a good thing.
Sneaking, smiting, large flurry of Bane... Tasty!
If you're allowed to use Psionics, check out the Marksman. There's a lot to like there! Dragon Disciple could be interesting, especially if you have an adaptive strength bow and there's no reason you shouldn't.
Were it me I'd gestalt with Melee 1/Wizard 5/Eldritch Knight 10/Arcane Archer 4.
I'm playing that very thing right now, minus the gestalt with ZAM, and I'm desperately struggling with whether I should slip in a level or 2 of ZAM.
Gestalting would solve all my problems!
Enjoy ...
Personally I think Zen archer and either cleric or the wis based sorcerer bloodline would be the best combination.
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Warpriest or druid would be my suggestions. I think druid could be a little hard to mesh with the archery aspect (at least, there'd be several abilities that would be more "backups" for when archery wasn't an option), so Warpriest (if you have the .pdf) is probably the way to go. As Imbicatus pointed out, you'd get a lot of complementary bonuses that would all feed into your archery pretty powerfully.
Why not bard? Archeologist with the trait to increase luck bonuses. And out of combat you have all those nice bard things like skills and spells