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When a party of PCs start thinking like this, they are effectively ended as an adventuring group.
No longer are they a homogenous collective group mind with no personal desires! They are instead of group of people, banded together for a common cause, but still with their own individual goals and personalities!
As a GM, I've had to deal with parties where good PCs are teamed up with evil PCs who want to murder people for fun. I would have loved to have a conflict as minor as this.
Interesting. I certainly assume that if the wizard had time off he'd spend it in the pub (or leisure activity of his choice). It's not exactly good role-playing if all your characters are adventuring machines with no human desires.
The way I imagine it, the crafter has eight hours of crafting, eight hours of sleep, and eight hours of other stuff (cooking, eating, washing up, laundry). The rest of the group has eight hours of leisure time in place of the crafting - only actually doing work if they're making skill checks or similar. It's not like the PCs would have suffered any penalty if everyone was working an eight hour day.
I suppose it might seem like less of an in-character if you work out exactly how your group is going to manage their time and they are clearly all pulling their weight. "I spend the day crafting. What do you guys do?" "I'll wash your underwear." "I'll bring you hot meals and then do the washing up." "I'll take your horse out into the fields for a walk." "I'll make a Diplomacy check to gather information."
Though realistically, people with thousands of gold pieces to spare for crafting would buy cooked meals and pay someone else to do their laundry.
And I think there's a big difference between someone secretly stealing from the party, and someone doing work for fellow party members at one fifth of the standard price.
1) Are you actually handling downtime this way? If the wizard is crafting, then he doesn't get to role play?
If so, I wouldn't be crafting despite earning gold, since my primary purpose of sitting at the table is engaging in rp, not optimizing my character's wealth.2) Still, it isn't really doing work for a fifth of the standard price. It is adding extra to the price if she should sell it elsewhere.
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See, now I'm going to have to disagree with you. (Although, first let me say I'm fine with the crafter charging). My group doesn't use crafting too terribly often but we have never charged a "fee." However we don't really play the "random group of adventurers" troupe either. The wizard would never think to charge other party members anymore than the fighter charging the group to use power attack. Our games are usually people banded together to solve a mission. If you want to go real life, ask any military personnel if they would charge somebody in their platoon for a job that would contribute to a mission's success. Again, I'm fine with the caster charging a little extra. I just don't like the "bad role-playing" label. (In this particular case. I'm sure I've thrown it around in other cases.)This thread again?
Went to several hundred posts last time :)
I'll just restate my argument again - "No, you charge cost price".
The 'time' argument is particularly ridiculous in a game where time is abstracted and is handwaved away.
It's also ridiculous that they bother to put food and water prices in the book in a game where that's just handwaved away or that they put a spell in the book solely to clean yourself up when that's just handwaved away.
It's called roleplaying and trust me call up your friend and ask him to do a job for you at cost with no pay or compensation whatsoever 20 or 30 times and see how likely he is to say yes. That is roughly the likelihood that any properly roleplayed character is going to have of saying yes.
So I'm going to go ahead and say, not charging without any other reason is in fact bad roleplaying, and it's violating the intention of the rules as stated by the devs, and it's bad for party and game balance, because that feat actually becomes a negative for the person taking it. So all in all I'm going to have to say I respectfully disagree Shifty.
Yes, what would be the reaction to: "You are a good gunsmith, so while we go to the pub take all the platoon weapons, zero them to perfection, then clean and grease them. Ah, we need them tomorrow morning, so be speedy."?
Not so friendly, I think.The OP is free to do whatever he want while the crafter is using his feat, but apparently he don't do anything beside complaining.
..... If you want to go real life, ask any military personnel if they would charge somebody in their platoon for a job that would contribute to a mission's success....The soldiers are all usually payed for every little bit they do to contributet to the succes of any mission. And they get payed more in they have special skills or spend the weekend.
And it is common practice to but and sell things and services among soldiers and most kinds of coworkers really.Among soldiers. What about those specifically on a mission together?
"Hey, Johnson, you're the explosives expert. Can you rig up some bombs to use in the attack tomorrow?"
"I can but it'll cost ya."I don't know. Just doesn't seem right to me.
There is someone paying him for that: his government. he would use the government equipment, the government explosive and the government paid working time to make those bombs.
On the other hand, when the "scrounger" of a military unit get something that isn't officially available from the military depots he don't do that for free. He ask for tradable items to give in exchange and generally keep a good finder fee for himself.
I would say getting more downtime activities set up would do a lot to help justify a crafting charge. If the wizard's spending a month of downtime crafting, the other members of the party should be allowed to do something with all that time. If the cleric's offering spellcasting services, The Fighter's running a gladiator school, and bard is putting on public performances (all of which come with some kind of reward/in-game effect). That's really up to the GM though, and sadly the OP's doesn't seem interested in allowing that.
1) Are you actually handling downtime this way? If the wizard is crafting, then he doesn't get to role play?
If so, I wouldn't be crafting despite earning gold, since my primary purpose of sitting at the table is engaging in rp, not optimizing my character's wealth.
2) Still, it isn't really doing work for a fifth of the standard price. It is adding extra to the price if she should sell it elsewhere.
1 I was thinking of implied downtime role-playing. You wouldn't actually play out every day of non-adventuring, but I like to know what characters are doing. Last time I played a (good-aligned) cleric, she was crafting for her allies, while they did nothing specific, which I took to mean they were goofing off. She resented them for it at the time. Later in the campaign, they bought her an expensive metamagic rod, so she forgave them.
2 If you went to an NPC crafter and got them to make your a Cloak of Resistance +1, they would charge you 1000gp - 500gp for materials, and 500gp per day for labor. The character in question is charging 600gp - 500gp for materials and 100gp for labor. So in that sense, it's a fifth of the going rate.
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currently, in my game, the crafter is charging 60% for the magic items that he crafts for us.
Personally I find it a bit greedy on the crafter's part
The crafter counters my argument by saying "I'm Chaotic Neutral, I can charge you whatever I want"
Is it right, as a member of the party, to charge other people? For it is ultimately benefiting the party as a whole.
Don't buy from him then.
See, everybody is still forgetting a primary things: crafting feats ARE NOT MEANT TO GENERATE TREMENDOUS WEALTH. The guidelines for crafting state, a single crafting feat does not add more than 25% to WBL (and it scales down with more). Any economies COME OUT OF THE CRAFTERS POCKET. If the GM is following the WBL guidelines, the crafter absorbs all the "saved" gold, which does not leave a lot of wiggle room.
If folks want to play with houserules, great. But the system has safeguards in place that if you just ignore radically change the nature of the game.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items
Search "Adjusting Character Wealth by Level"
The GM isnt supposed to allow the WHOLE PARTY to double their gold. The crafter gets a bit extra, and the rest get the advantage of customisability. That's all. If the crafter has 12.5 k WBL, & you have 10k WBL, and you ask him to craft a 20k gp (price) item, THEY have to reabsorb 10 k GP, leaving them with a paltry 2.5 k gp. The advantage of the crafting feat is NOT meant to be money-saving, it's (mostly) meant to be CUSTOMISABILITY.
Here's the paizo example:
"Example: The Character Wealth by Level table states that an 8th-level character should have about 33,000 gp worth of items. Using the above 25% rule, Patrick's 8th-level wizard with Craft Wondrous Item is allowed an additional 8,250 gp worth of crafted wondrous items. If he uses his feat to craft items for the rest of the party, any excess value the other PCs have because of those items should count toward Patrick's additional 8,250 gp worth of crafted items."
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I'll be honest. After the third or fourth thread on this, I've started thinking maybe it's easier just not to craft for other people.
Every Feat you spend on Crafting is one less Feat you had for Metamagic. You traded off pulling your weight in battle effectiveness and now the party has to carry you more. Your free choice was to bring less 'Fireball' and instead you brought a extra item capacity to the party.
That's not entirely accurate. The extra WBL for the crafter should come fairly close to making up for their lack of combat effectiveness. Especially since metamagic rods are a thing.
And, of course, even just the customization of your gear, even at full price, can make a hell of a difference in some campaigns.
Besides, let's be honest. If the party's wizard is having trouble carrying his or her own weight in combat, it has nothing to do with lacking a single metamagic feat. Or four metamagic feats, for that matter.
..... If you want to go real life, ask any military personnel if they would charge somebody in their platoon for a job that would contribute to a mission's success....The soldiers are all usually payed for every little bit they do to contributet to the succes of any mission. And they get payed more in they have special skills or spend the weekend.
And it is common practice to but and sell things and services among soldiers and most kinds of coworkers really.Among soldiers. What about those specifically on a mission together?
"Hey, Johnson, you're the explosives expert. Can you rig up some bombs to use in the attack tomorrow?"
"I can but it'll cost ya."I don't know. Just doesn't seem right to me.
"Johnson we have the summer of. How about you built me a new gym it will make more fit for the next mission? You are a carpenter after all so you have to."
"..."Does that sound rigth to you?
No. But like I said that is not the way I typically play.
Edit: just to be clear, I've never been in a game where the adventurers "took the summer off."
I dont think you and i really disagree.
To me things like selling stuff to the others in the group is a roleplay desision and is somthing that should be delt with in game.To demand, or at the very least feel entitelt to, free crafting or any thing else, out of game, is not different from how we do it:)
I can see a cleric charging the others for healing if the character is like that. and i can see the others in a group deal with it in different ways. just as i can see a mercenary character that always try to renegosiate his cut when the others need him most.
All in good fun.
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To me things like selling stuff to the others in the group is a roleplay desision and is somthing that should be delt with in game.
To demand, or at the very least feel entitelt to, free crafting or any thing else, out of game, is not different from how we do it:)
I can see a cleric charging the others for healing if the character is like that. and i can see the others in a group deal with it in different ways. just as i can see a mercenary character that always try to renegosiate his cut when the others need him most.
All in good fun.
I am pretty sure that the OP did not have much fun with his crafting colleague's actions ;-)
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In general if you dont want to pay for crafting services from a pc then dont. Just pay full price to an npc its really that simple. Or encourage use of found magic items.
We had a nice compromise in our kingmaker game. The crafter took the hedge magician trait and charged us the "full" 50%, getting the rest as bonus. That, I found fair.
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Frankly I'm astounded. "I'm giving you a massive discount" is "Greedy", and people complain about being given the option of getting something for essentially free (free labor).
*facepalm*
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Very well, some people want to play hive mind, but the it must be hive mind for all the characters, not only for the slave crafter.
How high is your spellcraft? go on and maximize it, while the crafter is crafting gear for free you must go out an earn magical capital to fuel his work.
Party quota is 500 gp/day to make him work at normal speed, 1.000 to have him work at peak speed.
So hurry up and get one of these skills at 10+:
Appraise, Craft, Diplomacy, Heal, Knowledge (arcana, dungeoneering, nature, planes, religion), Linguistics, Profession, Spellcraft, Use Magic Device.
Taking 10 you would and paying 100 GP you would earn 200 of magical capital every day. With 3 people working full time you will allow the crafter to make 1000 gp of magical items every day, 2.000 gp once every 5 days.
You are still behind quota, you must fuel the crafter to allow fast production every day.
So take those skill focus feats and increase your intelligence. It is for the good of the party. That way the crafter will make 2.000 gp of stuff every day and you will even have a reserve for the spells with costly components.
How the shoe feel? Comfortable now that it is on your feet?
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The crafter PC's player decides what he'd like to charge.
You decide how your PC feels about it.
End of story.
There is a smidge of meta-gamming going on.
How would the characte realize that the crafter is not using all of the money paid to him to craft?
Unless they had crafting feets, how would they even know?
Chiming in from the military side of things, I was in the military, and I can tell you first hand that I used to pay someone in my unit to roll my cammie sleeves for me just because he had the best looking sleeves in the platoon. It was only a few bucks, but his skill was for sale, and mine was sadly lacking.
There is no such thing as free. Especially in the military.
Adding to this, I too am in the military, and in a recent parade, paid another guy to polish my shoes (partly due to time constraints, partly because I suck at it!) I considered this a more than fair exchange.
If you are worried about your crafter friend being richer, or having better equipment, then there is nothing stopping you from earning some coin too. Invest in one of the craft/profession/perform skills or get a job/run a business in your downtime. Hell, if the leadership Feat is permitted in your game, you could get NPC'S to do any or all of those AND craft you some items at base cost.
Adding to this, I too am in the military, and in a recent parade, paid another guy to polish my shoes (partly due to time constraints, partly because I suck at it!) I considered this a more than fair exchange.Chiming in from the military side of things, I was in the military, and I can tell you first hand that I used to pay someone in my unit to roll my cammie sleeves for me just because he had the best looking sleeves in the platoon. It was only a few bucks, but his skill was for sale, and mine was sadly lacking.
There is no such thing as free. Especially in the military.
That's actually a lot fairer than asking CPL Corleone to do it for you for free. As I recall, he was more than happy to do "favors" for people.
Again, that is you forcing him on how to play his character. He is CN, which means it is ENTIRELY logical to charge his party members. He is not a charity, he does not do things for free. He is being "generous" by offering you a discount. The people being greedy and selfish are the guys trying to guilt-trip him into doing something he does not want to, nor has any inclination to, do.
Sure, and as the cleric I'd then say: OK, Bob, that's 10 gps per point of healing.
As the Rogue I'd say "It's 100gps to search for traps. Or- you can open all the doors."
As the Tank I'd just smile and let the monsters get past me and eat him.
As an arcanist I'd charge for every buff spell:"Hey Bob, if you want to be included in the haste spells, that's 100 gps"
and so forth.
A better way would be to go "Hey Bob, the party has decided that your character is being a complete richard, and he's no longer part of the adventuring party. But yeah, we'll buy that stuff at that prices from him ... as a NPC. "
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Frankly I'm astounded. "I'm giving you a massive discount" is "Greedy", and people complain about being given the option of getting something for essentially free (free labor).
But I expect that player still expects the party's cleric to give him healing for free.
Even if the cleric charged him half of what a NPC healer would do- is that OK? He's getting a "massive discount", right?
Frankly I'm astounded. "I'm giving you a massive discount" is "Greedy", and people complain about being given the option of getting something for essentially free (free labor).
But I expect that player still expects the party's cleric to give him healing for free.
Even if the cleric charged him half of what a NPC healer would do- is that OK? He's getting a "massive discount", right?
Again, everybody is forgetting a primary things: crafting feats ARE NOT MEANT TO GENERATE TREMENDOUS WEALTH. The guidelines for crafting state, a single crafting feat does not add more than 25% to WBL (and it scales down with more). Any economies COME OUT OF THE CRAFTERS POCKET. If the GM is following the WBL guidelines, the crafter absorbs all the "saved" gold, which does not leave a lot of wiggle room.
If folks want to play with houserules, great. But the system has safeguards in place that if you just ignore radically change the nature of the game.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items
Search "Adjusting Character Wealth by Level"
The GM isnt supposed to allow the WHOLE PARTY to double their gold. The crafter gets a bit extra, and the rest get the advantage of customisability. That's all. If the crafter has 12.5 k WBL, & you have 10k WBL, and you ask him to craft a 20k gp (price) item, THEY have to reabsorb 10 k GP, leaving them with a paltry 2.5 k gp. The advantage of the crafting feat is NOT meant to be money-saving, it's (mostly) meant to be CUSTOMISABILITY.
They thought about the wealth disparity problem before allowing crafting as it is, so as to have a balanced game, AND IT WORKS. The feat isnt worthless, BUT it doesnt allow everyone to double their items.
The crafter PC's player decides what he'd like to charge.
You decide how your PC feels about it.
End of story.
This is not only an ingame problem. I would have a problem with this as a player even if the PC I'm playing would not mind. The same as I as a player have a strong problem with rogue PCs pocketing extra loot, masked as roleplaying.
I could well se me leaving a game in which one of those is common. For me this is unsocial behavior on the other player's part.
Talk about it offgame, come to an agreement on how it is done in the future and reach your consequences.
Unlike the party healer, a caster who takes crafting feats is making a substantial sacrifice (in terms of feats used up) to craft items for the party and thus deserves some sort of compensation. Without his labor, the party members would be limited to what they could either find or purchase at full price. If you have a downtime system, he would be making stuff for party members while they are doing other things to improve themselves. These are all things that call for compensation.
Frankly, this issue has never come up in our games. My characters generally offered the party crafter 75% of the price of an item for him to make it and got a counter-offer of "free". We finally "compromised" on 50% of price (in other words, compensating him just for his costs). Of course, while he was with us we made a point of giving him first dibs on items that he could use but not make.
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Frankly I'm astounded. "I'm giving you a massive discount" is "Greedy", and people complain about being given the option of getting something for essentially free (free labor).But I expect that player still expects the party's cleric to give him healing for free.
Even if the cleric charged him half of what a NPC healer would do- is that OK? He's getting a "massive discount", right?
If the cleric charged, that's his choice. The party can decide to find another cleric if they don't like it. That's their choice. Literally, if the party member doesn't do anything to contribute to the party's success, then the party can leave that PC on the side of the road.
However, it's extremely asinine to suggest that "not spending my days in 8 hour increments, crafting items to your taste for you, at no charge" is somehow on the same level or even on the same plane as actually contributing or doing something during the adventure.
Furthermore, on the subject of this nonsensical "cleric charges for healing" or "I'll let him die", what kind of psychopatic monster PCs are we talking about here?
I mean, just because you aren't going to be my slave does not mean I'm going to let you get hit by a car if I can prevent it.
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Again, that is you forcing him on how to play his character. He is CN, which means it is ENTIRELY logical to charge his party members. He is not a charity, he does not do things for free. He is being "generous" by offering you a discount. The people being greedy and selfish are the guys trying to guilt-trip him into doing something he does not want to, nor has any inclination to, do.Sure, and as the cleric I'd then say: OK, Bob, that's 10 gps per point of healing.
As the Rogue I'd say "It's 100gps to search for traps. Or- you can open all the doors."
As the Tank I'd just smile and let the monsters get past me and eat him.
As an arcanist I'd charge for every buff spell:"Hey Bob, if you want to be included in the haste spells, that's 100 gps"
and so forth.
A better way would be to go "Hey Bob, the party has decided that your character is being a complete richard, and he's no longer part of the adventuring party. But yeah, we'll buy that stuff at that prices from him ... as a NPC. "
So I suppose you are at work gathering those magical ingredients during downtime, right? After all downtime is is free for all.
Unlike the party healer, a caster who takes crafting feats is making a substantial sacrifice (in terms of feats used up) to craft items for the party and thus deserves some sort of compensation. Without his labor, the party members would be limited to what they could either find or purchase at full price. If you have a downtime system, he would be making stuff for party members while they are doing other things to improve themselves. These are all things that call for compensation.
There's healing feats too, who is to say the party healer hasn't taken some of those? Or the Rogue has taken feats or talents to make him a better scout- where the compensation for that?
But they don't have a downtime system. So there's no need to compensation.
So I suppose you are at work gathering those magical ingredients during downtime, right? After all downtime is is free for all.Again, that is you forcing him on how to play his character. He is CN, which means it is ENTIRELY logical to charge his party members. He is not a charity, he does not do things for free. He is being "generous" by offering you a discount. The people being greedy and selfish are the guys trying to guilt-trip him into doing something he does not want to, nor has any inclination to, do.Sure, and as the cleric I'd then say: OK, Bob, that's 10 gps per point of healing.
As the Rogue I'd say "It's 100gps to search for traps. Or- you can open all the doors."
As the Tank I'd just smile and let the monsters get past me and eat him.
As an arcanist I'd charge for every buff spell:"Hey Bob, if you want to be included in the haste spells, that's 100 gps"
and so forth.
A better way would be to go "Hey Bob, the party has decided that your character is being a complete richard, and he's no longer part of the adventuring party. But yeah, we'll buy that stuff at that prices from him ... as a NPC. "
Huh?
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Huh?So I suppose you are at work gathering those magical ingredients during downtime, right? After all downtime is is free for all.Again, that is you forcing him on how to play his character. He is CN, which means it is ENTIRELY logical to charge his party members. He is not a charity, he does not do things for free. He is being "generous" by offering you a discount. The people being greedy and selfish are the guys trying to guilt-trip him into doing something he does not want to, nor has any inclination to, do.Sure, and as the cleric I'd then say: OK, Bob, that's 10 gps per point of healing.
As the Rogue I'd say "It's 100gps to search for traps. Or- you can open all the doors."
As the Tank I'd just smile and let the monsters get past me and eat him.
As an arcanist I'd charge for every buff spell:"Hey Bob, if you want to be included in the haste spells, that's 100 gps"
and so forth.
A better way would be to go "Hey Bob, the party has decided that your character is being a complete richard, and he's no longer part of the adventuring party. But yeah, we'll buy that stuff at that prices from him ... as a NPC. "
Strangely I haven't seen a rush of people saying "Yes, I will spend my downtime working for the party well being", even if there are clear rules on how you can do that.
Where is the mundane crafter working 8 hours at the forge to make the masterwork items needed for the party? Too shy to speak?
Apparently only the guys making magic items should slave for the party good.
Eh. People dont play the game as designed, and complain about it when it starts becoming unreasonable. The crafter isnt supposed to double your cash (as designed) but apparently most people want to play the unreasonable way. While I dont like all of paizo's design choices, this is one thing I think they did very well, but people only use it partially.
Plus, from what the OP was saying, the crafter was pulling it's weight in other places as well. So the problem might be more that the wizard is optimized & overshadowing other players.
Wizards also routinely overshadow martials. Shrug.
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See, everybody is still forgetting a primary things: crafting feats ARE NOT MEANT TO GENERATE TREMENDOUS WEALTH. The guidelines for crafting state, a single crafting feat does not add more than 25% to WBL (and it scales down with more). Any economies COME OUT OF THE CRAFTERS POCKET. If the GM is following the WBL guidelines, the crafter absorbs all the "saved" gold, which does not leave a lot of wiggle room.
If folks want to play with houserules, great. But the system has safeguards in place that if you just ignore radically change the nature of the game.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items
Search "Adjusting Character Wealth by Level"The GM isnt supposed to allow the WHOLE PARTY to double their gold. The crafter gets a bit extra, and the rest get the advantage of customisability. That's all. If the crafter has 12.5 k WBL, & you have 10k WBL, and you ask him to craft a 20k gp (price) item, THEY have to reabsorb 10 k GP, leaving them with a paltry 2.5 k gp. The advantage of the crafting feat is NOT meant to be money-saving, it's (mostly) meant to be CUSTOMISABILITY.
Here's the paizo example:
"Example: The Character Wealth by Level table states that an 8th-level character should have about 33,000 gp worth of items. Using the above 25% rule, Patrick's 8th-level wizard with Craft Wondrous Item is allowed an additional 8,250 gp worth of crafted wondrous items. If he uses his feat to craft items for the rest of the party, any excess value the other PCs have because of those items should count toward Patrick's additional 8,250 gp worth of crafted items."
What your forgeting is those rules are from ultimate campaign- an OPTIONAL book, your shouting it like its core raw. Like you said there guidlines. I doubt if the OP's GM thinks downtime rules is to complex than wpl is probably too complex as well.
Honestly a lot of these posts just sound like children bickering. The guy is free to play his character however he feels just like everyone else. So he's playing a slightly frugal CN wizard. That's not only his choice its his right. Just as its everyone elses right to go to another wizard for crafting. He's not stealing from the party, he's being completly upfront and honest about his terms and your free to have your character except them or not. This is no where the same as CHARGING to have a fighter use power attack or a cleric to heal. It wouuld be more equal to someone else telling you when and who you your allowed to power atack or how many heals you can prepare and on who and when you can heal. Because that's what its seems everyone is implying about the wizards craft feat- the party decides who he crafts for, when he crafts, and how much he can charge or he's somehow not a team player and cheating the party. I would hate to play a paly with some of you guys cause I would get kicked out of the game for donating wealth to charity and cheat the party out of all that gold that could have been used for something else...but that some how different I suppose....
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But I expect that player still expects the party's cleric to give him healing for free.Even if the cleric charged him half of what a NPC healer would do- is that OK? He's getting a "massive discount", right?
The Cleric doesn't spend 8 hours a day for several months "meditating" to use his ability to heal.
The Cleric had no opportunity cost for Feats in order to be able to heal.
The Cleric is not otherwise paying out of pocket to help someone else. His healing costs no money.
And there's quite a big difference between petty "Yeah we're in combat but f@*% you I'm not going to heal anybody" and "Look I'm going to give you a 40% discount on crafting when I craft stuff".
One is life or death. The other is convenience.
You pay for convenience. You don't like it? Go pay somewhere else. You'll be paying almost double, but that's your choice.
See, everybody is still forgetting a primary things: crafting feats ARE NOT MEANT TO GENERATE TREMENDOUS WEALTH. The guidelines for crafting state, a single crafting feat does not add more than 25% to WBL (and it scales down with more). Any economies COME OUT OF THE CRAFTERS POCKET. If the GM is following the WBL guidelines, the crafter absorbs all the "saved" gold, which does not leave a lot of wiggle room.
If folks want to play with houserules, great. But the system has safeguards in place that if you just ignore radically change the nature of the game.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items
Search "Adjusting Character Wealth by Level"The GM isnt supposed to allow the WHOLE PARTY to double their gold. The crafter gets a bit extra, and the rest get the advantage of customisability. That's all. If the crafter has 12.5 k WBL, & you have 10k WBL, and you ask him to craft a 20k gp (price) item, THEY have to reabsorb 10 k GP, leaving them with a paltry 2.5 k gp. The advantage of the crafting feat is NOT meant to be money-saving, it's (mostly) meant to be CUSTOMISABILITY.
Here's the paizo example:
"Example: The Character Wealth by Level table states that an 8th-level character should have about 33,000 gp worth of items. Using the above 25% rule, Patrick's 8th-level wizard with Craft Wondrous Item is allowed an additional 8,250 gp worth of crafted wondrous items. If he uses his feat to craft items for the rest of the party, any excess value the other PCs have because of those items should count toward Patrick's additional 8,250 gp worth of crafted items."What your forgeting is those rules are from ultimate campaign- an OPTIONAL book, your shouting it like its core raw. Like you said there guidlines. I doubt if the OP's GM thinks downtime rules is to complex than wpl is probably too complex as well.
Honestly a lot of these posts just sound like children bickering. The guy is free to play his character however he feels just like everyone else. So he's playing a...
Hm. You do make me realize I'm unsure where these rules come from. I'm using them myself and they do seriously curb crafting abuse. Sorry for pushing it so hard, but it's definitly a system that makes crafting work. Yes, it's from ultimate campaign, but seriously, item crafting needs very calm reflection before allowing it in a game. I guess I got pissed because there are a set of rules that make it more balanced, but nobody uses them. Sorry if I lost my cool.
I do appreciate your point about the party controlling the use of your resources. Nobody likes being controlled, not by the GM or other players.
Here's the paizo example:
"Example: The Character Wealth by Level table states that an 8th-level character should have about 33,000 gp worth of items. Using the above 25% rule, Patrick's 8th-level wizard with Craft Wondrous Item is allowed an additional 8,250 gp worth of crafted wondrous items. If he uses his feat to craft items for the rest of the party, any excess value the other PCs have because of those items should count toward Patrick's additional 8,250 gp worth of crafted items."This is stupid. It's designed to encourage the sort of behaviors that make the game not work. D20 works best when all PCs are close in capability and defenses and worst when the gaps approach the size of the random number generator and biasing wealth towards one character is almost always a bad thing.
Nobody uses WBL except to build replacement characters. The GM cannot control the rate at which PCs use consumables and the rate at which wealth comes to the party from standard NPC loot exceeds WBL.
What actually happens is that crafting is limited solely by downtime. In a low downtime game it's a pathetic waste of a feat for anything but scrolls. For a high downtime game the crafter, at least, goes well over expected wealth. If everyone is over-wealth the game can handle it. Count it as +1 APL the same way you'd count high wealth for an NPC as +1 CR. If the crafter is significantly wealthier than the others you have an unbalanced party. The crafter is not challenged. If the crafter is charging for crafting that wealth is finding its way into the crafter's budget, making the problem worse.
The game is best with no crafting except low grade consumables, but if you're going to have inflated wealth the game system can compensate if and only if it's close to evenly spread or even biased towards non-casters (who pay twice as much to craft and for whom feats are generally more valuable than they are for casters).
At this point, I'd generally say... ban crafting for teh big stuff. But I get your point. Still, I have been using this system (as a magus, who desperately wants feats) and it's been good. Other players get custom items, I get a bit of extra stuff, and whe're pretty balanced. Though I do admit this game is fairly low gold (but still high magic) so I'm limited in crafting by that as well.
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See, everybody is still forgetting a primary things: crafting feats ARE NOT MEANT TO GENERATE TREMENDOUS WEALTH. The guidelines for crafting state, a single crafting feat does not add more than 25% to WBL (and it scales down with more). Any economies COME OUT OF THE CRAFTERS POCKET. If the GM is following the WBL guidelines, the crafter absorbs all the "saved" gold, which does not leave a lot of wiggle room.
If folks want to play with houserules, great. But the system has safeguards in place that if you just ignore radically change the nature of the game.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items
Search "Adjusting Character Wealth by Level"The GM isnt supposed to allow the WHOLE PARTY to double their gold. The crafter gets a bit extra, and the rest get the advantage of customisability. That's all. If the crafter has 12.5 k WBL, & you have 10k WBL, and you ask him to craft a 20k gp (price) item, THEY have to reabsorb 10 k GP, leaving them with a paltry 2.5 k gp. The advantage of the crafting feat is NOT meant to be money-saving, it's (mostly) meant to be CUSTOMISABILITY.
Here's the paizo example:
"Example: The Character Wealth by Level table states that an 8th-level character should have about 33,000 gp worth of items. Using the above 25% rule, Patrick's 8th-level wizard with Craft Wondrous Item is allowed an additional 8,250 gp worth of crafted wondrous items. If he uses his feat to craft items for the rest of the party, any excess value the other PCs have because of those items should count toward Patrick's additional 8,250 gp worth of crafted items."What your forgeting is those rules are from ultimate campaign- an OPTIONAL book, your shouting it like its core raw. Like you said there guidlines. I doubt if the OP's GM thinks downtime rules is to complex than wpl is probably too complex as well.
Honestly a lot of these posts just sound like children bickering. The guy is free to play his character however he feels just like everyone else. So he's playing a...
Ultimate Campaign is part of the Core line, and the mechanics on crafting magic items were one of the biggest issues that players had been asking the devs to elaborate on. Saying that the rules are optional because you don't like them doesn't mean they are not rules, and it definitely doesn't make them not Core.
Unless you are one of those guys who only sees the CRB as being the only core and nothing else qualifies as real Pathfinder/DnD.
As to the topic, I have just been looking over this thread and man, who thinks that it's okay for the players to demand anything from this wizard? Who is on that side of "the wizard should be crafting all our stuff for us for half price and not gain anything for himself?"
As for the cleric or the fighter doing their job vs the wizard doing his, the wizard's job isn't to be your crafter. It is to MAGIC at things. Had he not taken those crafting feats would you just ditch this wizard? Probably not.
The thing is in and of itself I say giving only a 40% discount "as apposed to taxing or cheating the party" is fair just because I would rather pay 600 gp for something than 1000. There's a lot of variables that come into play and obviously different players feel different ways on the matter. We honestly don't even know all the facts or anything about this wizard. He could be actually playing his character to how he envisions him, he could be trying to get more power creep, he could be setting the cash aside for something really expenisive he just wants for himself but can't afford yet- like a staff, the OP could very well be the only one disgruntled about the deal, the wizard may yet still be uber helpfull to the party ingame.
At the end of the day what it really comes down to is every player and character has flaws and minor anoyances but are hopefully still an asset to the party and worth having come back to the table. Somewhere a pally will get the evil eye for donating a magic item, a rogue will gladly loan his comrade money for a magic sword...for a price, a barb puts the pointy thing in the bag of holding , an unkown wizard keeps crafting for 60% cost and is still the best deal in the realm, and the party rallies on because there's grander problems for heroes to be solving and plenty of gold for everyone if you know where to look....
It seems that everyone whining about it is people who want you to give them free stuff, not the people giving the discounts. That seems rather telling.
@OP : why don't YOU take a crafting feat ?
After all, according to you, taking the feat is not a sacrifice.
And yes, you can take 2 crafting feats : Craft Wondrous Items and Craft Magic arms and armors (the second being one very useful to the group and less likely to be taken by wizards).
Or maybe investing skill points and feats is too much after all ?
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The guy that took the crafting feat wants to craft items for himself first. In most scenarios/campaigns (including most APs), downtime is not enough to craft every items for everyone in the party. And that suppose you take 8 hours everyday to craft items.
So, everyday, you have the choice between making an item for you, or making an item for someone else. That time is worth a lot. By granting his fellow companions "only" a 40% discount, he is somewhat compensating for the time lost for him.
Personally, I would charge my fellow companions depending on the characters (not players) I'm with. If I'm with a group that I fought in hard adventures, were very close to death together, and bound ourselves as a real team of friends, I would do it for the cost, not even thinking about doing it for more. But in such groups, money is not something very personal, and more a team thing anyway.
If I'm with a group of adventurers I met a few days ago, that gathered by sheer luck, I would certainly charge 55 to 80% of the price. Having 20% to 45% off and the possibility to actually choose the item(s) proprieties is still a very good deal.
Sure, and as the cleric I'd then say: OK, Bob, that's 10 gps per point of healing.
As the Rogue I'd say "It's 100gps to search for traps. Or- you can open all the doors."
As the Tank I'd just smile and let the monsters get past me and eat him.
As an arcanist I'd charge for every buff spell:"Hey Bob, if you want to be included in the haste spells, that's 100 gps"
and so forth.
A better way would be to go "Hey Bob, the party has decided that your character is being a complete richard, and he's no longer part of the adventuring party. But yeah, we'll buy that stuff at that prices from him ... as a NPC. "
To put it simply, gold is special in Pathfinder. Searching for traps is free in terms of gp. Channeling energy is free in terms of gp. Items inherently are the stuff-result of gp.
Also, to be honest, if you try to outgun the crafting wizard you will lose that arms race. You want the crafting wizard on your side. If they're an NPC, they can rightly tell you go do something else with yourself. :) Then, you're back to buying full-priced goods from a merchant. That character? He is free to continue adventuring on the side AND operating as a full-priced merchant. You haven't hurt the character at all. However, you've probably pissed off the player to a great degree.
I played a crafter that would not take a dime in profit, but I still side with the 10% guy.
for most games, crafting downtime is a finite commodity, time I spend crafting your item is time I don't have to craft mine. The 10% doesn't sound unfair, it may even lessen the demand for more frivolous items.
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The crafter PC's player decides what he'd like to charge.
You decide how your PC feels about it.
End of story.
This is not only an ingame problem. I would have a problem with this as a player even if the PC I'm playing would not mind. The same as I as a player have a strong problem with rogue PCs pocketing extra loot, masked as roleplaying.
I could well se me leaving a game in which one of those is common. For me this is unsocial behavior on the other player's part.
Talk about it offgame, come to an agreement on how it is done in the future and reach your consequences.
It's not your character, it's not your decision. You can wring your hands and cry to the heavens all you like, it is not your responsibility to enforce "fairness" on the other players.
There's no rule in the book about it, and if you GM decides they're not going to enforce rates for whatever reason, then you are at the mercy of the character who took the feats.
If you don't like it, take the feats yourself. Then charge whatever you want.
Telling other people how to play their characters is not going to make you any friends. You can always go and pay the full, fair price at the market if you don't want to take the offered discount.
Apparently only the guys making magic items should slave for the party good.
Go back and read the Op's posts. The DM handwaves all that. Downtime is just handwaved. There is no "slaving away".
Now sure, if you're using other books, and one PC is crafting magic items, while the others are off getting more HP or something in their downtime, sure, the crafter is giving something up. Not in this case.
Apparently only the guys making magic items should slave for the party good.
Go back and read the Op's posts. The DM handwaves all that. Downtime is just handwaved. There is no "slaving away".
Now sure, if you're using other books, and one PC is crafting magic items, while the others are off getting more HP or something in their downtime, sure, the crafter is giving something up. Not in this case.
Ok, but what RIGHT do you have to use his feat? Again, somepeople like to ROLE PLAY their characters and, last I checked, not everybody is a goody goody NG or LG guy that does things for everybody else "from the bottom of his heart."
The crafter PC's player decides what he'd like to charge.
You decide how your PC feels about it.
End of story.
This is not only an ingame problem. I would have a problem with this as a player even if the PC I'm playing would not mind. The same as I as a player have a strong problem with rogue PCs pocketing extra loot, masked as roleplaying.
I could well se me leaving a game in which one of those is common. For me this is unsocial behavior on the other player's part.
Talk about it offgame, come to an agreement on how it is done in the future and reach your consequences.It's not your character, it's not your decision. You can wring your hands and cry to the heavens all you like, it is not your responsibility to enforce "fairness" on the other players.
There's no rule in the book about it, and if you GM decides they're not going to enforce rates for whatever reason, then you are at the mercy of the character who took the feats.
If you don't like it, take the feats yourself. Then charge whatever you want.
Telling other people how to play their characters is not going to make you any friends. You can always go and pay the full, fair price at the market if you don't want to take the offered discount.
Or you can turn around, leave and look for a "better" group.
Ok, but what RIGHT do you have to use his feat? Again, somepeople like to ROLE PLAY their characters and, last I checked, not everybody is a goody goody NG or LG guy that does things for everybody else "from the bottom of his heart."
Because we are paying for that Feat.
Because the party is carrying a caster who isn't optimised for combat etc, and therefore doesn't contribute as effectively, and now we need to carry him. The compensation for us doing the extra work he shirks during the adventure is him doing the rest of his fair share out of it.
Don't like that? Don't be a subpar caster/crafter.
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When you start telling the player whether or not they can charge another party member for something, you're making their RP decisions and playing their character for them.
Whether they want to do it or not is up to them. Of course, whether the rest of the party want to keep on adventuring with that character is up to them.
Personally, I wouldn't have an issue with it. I'd just make sure my own character started charging them protection/healing/whatever fees in return.