Getting a lot of 'tude in this thread. Don't think we need to get snarky just because someone believes or feels differently.
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I can only give my own experience on this stuff. I personally felt that my Oracle had a lot more.. "stuff".. to do outside of pure spellcasting, compared to any cleric I've run before.
It's a different play experience, and if you try playing one you'll see it.
I've heard of an oracle of Heaven having a blast with Awesome Display (nothing like make a 15 HD creature get affected by color spray! Get a lot of mileage off spells with one revelation).
A friend played an Oracle with a level of Barbarian. Had the ancestor background, so wasn't going for the prestige class. Just buffed himself a bunch with revelations and spells and then raged and went to town beating the nuts off things. His party completely mistook him as a full warrior, with the combat he was pulling off. He had to warn them he couldn't do it all day long.
That was a very interesting character as I recall. They found him in a town riddled with plague.. and he played it as that his character just didn't seem to die from it. His ancestors (maybe?) kept him alive despite his plague riddled body. Double cursed with Wasting and Haunted.
Str, Dex (12-14ish), Con, Int (12ish for a few skills), and Wis is still pretty MAD.I saw here being mentioned that metal and battle oracles make better meleers than clerics and i ask, how?Well, depends on your mysteries, because those determine what abilities you get. A big thing is how much more SAD the oracle can become and how MAD the cleric is. Also look at how many combat related revelations the oracle has access too and how good they are versus how good the inquisitions/domains the clerics get will be.I like how the Cleric is said to be MAD.
If I'm building a battle cleric I assure you I'm dumping the hell out of charisma.
Channeling really is not that great of an ability for a guy whose job it is to smash faces.
Really?
Str: 18
Dex: 12
Con: 14
Wis: 14
Int: 12
Cha 7
Is perfectly doable in 20 pt buy assuming a floating stat increase (humans, half orcs, etc.). Though I more often than not bring Int down to 10 (I'm smashing faces remember?) just to ensure I get the skills I honestly need and not care about the rest.
If I want to make a cleric that's all about skills I don't make one that's about smashing faces. If I want to make a proper support cleric it looks more like.
Str: 13
Dex: 12
Con: 12
Wis: 17
Int: 14
Cha: 10
Again, don't need charisma that much.
I mean this would be like calling a Fighter or barbarian MAD because he needs Charisma for intimidate and bluff (to feint).
clearly, you haven't seen the other stuff a battle or metal oracle gets
both can spend a single revelation to both Get ALL martial weapons AND heavy Armor
both get stoneskin without material components a handful of times per day
** spoiler omitted **
** spoiler omitted **
most of these boons, are pretty darn good. they might not have a paladins smite, bab, or Cha to saves, but their spells, are much more plentiful than a paladin's and they have more options than a paladin in the form of a more versatile spell list and access to buffs that, while not capable of the Boss slaying boost called smite, are capable of providing a meaningful bonus against all foes involved.
a battle or metal mystery oracle is almost as survivable as a paladin and more effective against multiple foe encounters, paladin does best at killing a single evil foe, oracles don't have an alignment restriction on the foes they slaughter.
It's over 3.30 AM here, i will check them tommorow but it sounds too good to be true.
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@Leo1925
The Battle Cleric can't pick War and Tactics domains at the same time, and the Longsword proficiency doesn't really compare to martial weapons (two handers and reach weapons) and does nothing towards heavy armor access.
The Battle Oracle gets a lot of nice spells oriented towards combat too (enlarge person, stoneskin ability, etc). Combinations that can't be gained by the Cleric who's limited in domain choices based on deity.
This is how the Battle Oracle is ahead of the Battle oriented Cleric.
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Is perfectly doable in 20 pt buy assuming a floating stat increase (humans, half orcs, etc.). Though I more often than not bring Int down to 10 (I'm smashing faces remember?) just to ensure I get the skills I honestly need and not care about the rest.
:) I didn't say it couldn't be done, just that that's still pretty dang Multiple Attribute Dependent.
The cleric spell list is pretty bad for spontaneous casters, especially the lower levels.For me, that's one of the Oracle's biggest issues. The cleric list tends to be fairly heavy on spells that aren't useful very often, but are massively helpful within their narrow niches. Condition removal spells are a real good example of this; getting rid of blindness, curses, and diseases is relatively easy for a cleric (though he might need 24 hours to re-do spells), but an oracle would have to give up 3 of his 4 level 3 spells known to get those spells (and level 3 has a lot of good cleric spells).
It's called a scroll.
On top of that, an oracle can use a mnemonic vestment, so they can have a scroll and cast from it without using it.
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They are also less MAD than the cleric since they can get AC of their casting stat (a few of them anyway). Just my 2cp
The less MAD part definitely.
I was just recently looking at building a cleric (with 20 pt buy) and it is just depressing what kind of stats you end up with. The oracle can dump wisdom (their best save) and intelligence (4 skill points vs 2) over the cleric.
@Leo1925
The Battle Cleric can't pick War and Tactics domains at the same time, and the Longsword proficiency doesn't really compare to martial weapons (two handers and reach weapons) and does nothing towards heavy armor access.
The Battle Oracle gets a lot of nice spells oriented towards combat too (enlarge person, stoneskin ability, etc). Combinations that can't be gained by the Cleric who's limited in domain choices based on deity.
This is how the Battle Oracle is ahead of the Battle oriented Cleric.
Why can't you have both the abilities i talked about? (the 2 rolls for initiative and the swift action combat feat)
Yes the longsword isn't the best weapon but it's good enough, sure greatswords and falchions are better weapons and the scimitar although better doesn't scale well when you are enlarged.
About reach weapons, only the lucerne hammer and the glaive are flat out better than the longspear, guisarmes and ranseurs are so marginally better than the longspear that it doesn't really matter.
Yes you gain heavy armor, i already gave battle oracles that.
Yes you get the enlarge person spell, a 50 gp potion (yes drinking a potion provokes AoO but enlarge person has 1 round casting time), yes it's a very good spell but it has it's limitations.
The once per day (twice at 15th) stoneskin ability is good i agree, also it's an 11+ level ability.
Even if the oracle of battles has indeed better (overall) abilities, he still has worse saves and he is one level late in spellcasting. I can't see how all of that makes a battle oracle 100x times better than a battle cleric.
And don't forget the Half-Elves with Paragon Surge and Expanded Arcana feat.
To be fair, clerics can do this, too. If they have heighten spell, they can get preferred spell.
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And don't forget the Half-Elves with Paragon Surge and Expanded Arcana feat.To be fair, clerics can do this, too. If they have heighten spell, they can get preferred spell.
Prerequisites: Caster level 1st, see Special.
Benefit: Add one spell from your class's spell list to your list of spells known. This is in addition to the number of spells normally gained at each new level in your class. You may instead add two spells from your class's spell list to your list of spells known, but both of these spells must be at least one level lower than the highest level spell you can cast in that class. Once made, these choices cannot be changed.
Special: You can only take this feat if you possess levels in a class whose spellcasting relies on a limited list of spells known, such as the bard, oracle, and sorcerer.
You can gain Expanded Arcana multiple times.
Spellcasting still doesn't rely on a limited list of spells known. Just preferred spell.
@Leo1925
The Battle Cleric can't pick War and Tactics domains at the same time, and the Longsword proficiency doesn't really compare to martial weapons (two handers and reach weapons) and does nothing towards heavy armor access.
The Battle Oracle gets a lot of nice spells oriented towards combat too (enlarge person, stoneskin ability, etc). Combinations that can't be gained by the Cleric who's limited in domain choices based on deity.
This is how the Battle Oracle is ahead of the Battle oriented Cleric.
Not really though.
It depends mostly on what you want to do. If you're out to control the pace of the fight than initiative is incredibly important and you need warsight or tactics domain.
However if your job is to end the fight than initiative is not a priority since you want to wait to hop in until your control and support elements have done their work.
So, with this in mind you don't need tactics or longsword proficiency. Frankly I'd rather go with a glaive, falchion, scythe, great sword, scimitar, bastard swords or katanas. All of which are available based on deity. And long spears and cestus are available to all clerics.
Do I get them all at once? No. Do I need to? Not really.
Glory/HEroism is a great battle domain. But, so is Trickery, so is Charm, so is travel, growth, destruction, rage (very good), demon, protean can also work well, darkness, feather, ferocity. It's a big list of decent to great options.
So what does a battle oracle really have?
Three free combat feats for a start and decent ones at that.
The metal orcale gains the fighters armor training ability essentially making heavy armor much more useful to him (though a cleric can duplicate the effects with the travel domain)
MAneuver mastery makes you much better than a cleric at combat maneuvers.
MEtal oracles also get lead blades which is a fair substitute for enlarge person in a group where you can get someone to buff you with enlarge person.
But, unless someone can come up with a different sort of battle oracle with a different mystery battle oracles won't be as varied or often as damaging as many types of battle cleric.
** spoiler omitted **And don't forget the Half-Elves with Paragon Surge and Expanded Arcana feat.To be fair, clerics can do this, too. If they have heighten spell, they can get preferred spell.
Suddenly every cleric has access to tactics domain...
I feel like the oracle fluff (non spell casting part) is more powerful than cleric fluff. Just like sorcerer bloodlines do more than wizard schools.
The debate over which is better is fairly even. (As far as best divine caster goes... that would be the druid :P)
Personally if the oracle is to the cleric what the sorcerer is to the wizard I feel the comparison should account for this.
The oracle is as far ahead of the sorcerer as the cleric is of the wizard and therefore should be considered sound as far as class power.
the boons i listed the battle and metal oracle offer are pretty sweet, plus, being an oracle means you don't have to ask 'mother may i?' if you don't want to be some god's whipping boy.
the boons i listed the battle and metal oracle offer are pretty sweet, plus, being an oracle means you don't have to ask 'mother may i?' if you don't want to be some god's whipping boy.
The last fool to call me The Lord in Iron's whipping boy now takes his meals through a funnel.
the boons i listed the battle and metal oracle offer are pretty sweet, plus, being an oracle means you don't have to ask 'mother may i?' if you don't want to be some god's whipping boy.The last fool to call me The Lord in Iron's whipping boy now takes his meals through a funnel.
Point proven. He's taking orders without even being told.
Point proven. He's taking orders without even being told.the boons i listed the battle and metal oracle offer are pretty sweet, plus, being an oracle means you don't have to ask 'mother may i?' if you don't want to be some god's whipping boy.The last fool to call me The Lord in Iron's whipping boy now takes his meals through a funnel.
I dunno. Given his culture he'd do it anyway. Religion just makes it tax free.
the boons i listed the battle and metal oracle offer are pretty sweet, plus, being an oracle means you don't have to ask 'mother may i?' if you don't want to be some god's whipping boy.
Of course if you are a follower of Calistria asking mother may I and being the whipping boy are perks, not drawbacks.
the boons i listed the battle and metal oracle offer are pretty sweet, plus, being an oracle means you don't have to ask 'mother may i?' if you don't want to be some god's whipping boy.
Yep.
I'd rather play an Oracle than a cleric any day. Clerics are almost a microcosm of my least favorite mechanics in D&D/PF -- Prep casting, mechanical alignment, and ability loss. Oracles avoid all that.
Plus most of my favorite races are better at Oracling than Clericking.
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the boons i listed the battle and metal oracle offer are pretty sweet, plus, being an oracle means you don't have to ask 'mother may i?' if you don't want to be some god's whipping boy.Of course if you are a follower of Calistria asking mother may I and being the whipping boy are perks, not drawbacks.
And if you're a worshiper of Zon-Kuthon you don't ask. You demand to be hit again.
i think the two are actually pretty balanced... which one is better is a matter of preference and what you want to be able to do.
the last oracle i played was a blackened flame oracle with the seeker archetype- his blasting was pretty comparable to a wizard or sorc, plus he had heals/status removers; he also had trapfinding and enough skills for perception and disable device (plus UMD, diplomacy, and spellcraft); thanks to medium armor prof and zero ASF% he had a better AC than other blasters. it was a fun and effective character that you couldn't replicate with a cleric.
the last cleric i played was a melee cleric of gorum with the strength[ferocity] and destruction[rage] domains- he had fair str/dex/con, decent cha, dumped int, and great Wis; started with channel smite (negative channeling) and guided hand... uses Wis for attack rolls, doesn't get big str bonus but gets good damage from channel smites and domain smites (all of which can be stacked), plus power attack starting at 3rd; has really high Wis for combat build which allows for some save or suck spells in his arsenal (like hold person and bestow curse). again, it was a fun and effective character that you couldn't replicate with an oracle (since oracles can't get the attack/casting stat synergy clerics can).
I'd rather play an Oracle than a cleric any day. Clerics are almost a microcosm of my least favorite mechanics in D&D/PF -- Prep casting, mechanical alignment, and ability loss. Oracles avoid all that.
Actually in 3.5 I could find a lot more reasons to play a cleric than in pathfinder oddly enough. I mean I much more enjoy the oracle package, but in pathfinder I can't even stomach a cleric.
Alignment depends on the GM. Personally I consider them outdated. My Paladins follow honor codes and the dictates of the Church, not the Lawful Good alignment. Likewise, clerics follow the dictates of the Church as well. But you do what you want, and have to live with the consequences in my games.
And sometimes those consequences bite hard.
It's called a scroll.The cleric spell list is pretty bad for spontaneous casters, especially the lower levels.For me, that's one of the Oracle's biggest issues. The cleric list tends to be fairly heavy on spells that aren't useful very often, but are massively helpful within their narrow niches. Condition removal spells are a real good example of this; getting rid of blindness, curses, and diseases is relatively easy for a cleric (though he might need 24 hours to re-do spells), but an oracle would have to give up 3 of his 4 level 3 spells known to get those spells (and level 3 has a lot of good cleric spells).
Scrolls cost money. So do Mnemonic Vestments. Not to mention that there might not be a scroll merchant available if the problem hits mid-adventure and/or you might need multiple castings of a spell. Scrolls can certainly help cover the versatility gap between cleric and oracle, but unless you have infinite WBL the cleric still have an edge in versatility.
It's also worth noting that, in the specific case of "Remove X" spells, quite a few of them call for a caster level check to remove the effect. Being at a scroll's caster level rather than your own can be an issue.
Paragon Surge is admittedly an option if you're playing a half-elf, though as I recall it's one of the more common ban-targets for home games precisely because the spell is such a huge boost to the oracle's versatility.
It's called a scroll.The cleric spell list is pretty bad for spontaneous casters, especially the lower levels.For me, that's one of the Oracle's biggest issues. The cleric list tends to be fairly heavy on spells that aren't useful very often, but are massively helpful within their narrow niches. Condition removal spells are a real good example of this; getting rid of blindness, curses, and diseases is relatively easy for a cleric (though he might need 24 hours to re-do spells), but an oracle would have to give up 3 of his 4 level 3 spells known to get those spells (and level 3 has a lot of good cleric spells).
Or wands, which most clerics use instead of prepping those spells anyway. Wand of CLW, Wand of Lesser Restoration and the like ... clerics usually carry multiples of those.
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Elven Life Oracle can add half his level to his channeling mystery. Channeling is his casting stat so he can channel more, exclude more, and have a higher DC against undead.
So basically he is 2x the healer/undead slayer the cleric is.
Oh and then he can add wizard spells to his spell lists by taking Ancient Lorekeeper.
So yes you too can play a cleric / sorcerer with better hit points and skill points all within a single class.
Level 10 life oracle channels for 9d6 from improved invisibility whenever he isn't fireballing/lightning bolting.
Yeah terrible terrible class :P
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If you have a clear plan of what you want to do:
Play an Oracle. An Oracle outmatches a cleric easily in his specialization field. Can even fill the party face in some cases with some mysteries.
If you don't know what you want to do:
Play a Cleric.
Cleric you can just fill and choose different roles everyday. Your feats are not really important when you have access to all the spells and its more beneficial to you to actually mix two roles for your feat selection like picking up power attack, so when you do the melee cleric you can do some damage and picking up one or two metamagic feats like extend and quicken spells for your spellcasting needs.
Elven Life Oracle can add half his level to his channeling mystery. Channeling is his casting stat so he can channel more, exclude more, and have a higher DC against undead.
So basically he is 2x the healer/undead slayer the cleric is.
Oh and then he can add wizard spells to his spell lists by taking Ancient Lorekeeper.
So yes you too can play a cleric / sorcerer with better hit points and skill points all within a single class.
Level 10 life oracle channels for 9d6 from improved invisibility whenever he isn't fireballing/lightning bolting.
Yeah terrible terrible class :P
With ancient lorekeeper, the oracle can take haste.
All of a sudden he's a better buffer than the cleric too.
Okay I started laughing hysterically here.
First, read the archetype. The oracle in question won't even be able to take Haste as an option until 8th level. By then the cleric is casting Blessing of Fervor which can be better than haste at times and even at times when haste is cast is an excellent complement. So at this level you can cast both. Which is really all that means.
So you cast haste 3 levels after the wizard and two levels after the sorcerer. And consequently 4 levels after the summoner.
As far as buffing goes I'd say they're roughly even with the cleric edging out very very slightly with options in alternate channeling and the evangelist archetype.
Second in regards to the life oracle getting more channels that's also showing signs of not reading. Life Oracles get 1 + charisma modifer versus the clerics 3 + charisma modifier. So while it is true you do in fact get a higher DC off of it I'd like to point out that a cleric can, with either the glory or heroism domains, get a +2 bonus to said DC. So an oracle with 18 charisma channeling is comparable to a glory cleric with 14 charisma. Ultimately they're even in this case too. Now having the elven oracle be able to drop favored bonuses into channel to make it much bigger is actually pretty sweet and worth mentioning.
the life oracle starts hampered in channels, but as their charisma grows, their amount of channels will exceed those of the cleric by enough to be not quite insignifficant
unless the cleric was a Cha based Channel Bot
It gets better yet when you consider that Half Elves can choose Elven options (as per the rules clarifications/errata - check with your GM though if it's a home game). Half Elves have that lovely +2 Charisma, which is a lot better than the -2 Con regular Elves get, especially for a Life Oracle.
unless the cleric was a Cha based Channel Bot
An extremely poor option as channeling falls off incredibly after a short time, each die only being 3.5 hitpoints worth and damage scaling far faster. The best build for channeling I've seen was a Life Oracle 4/Paladin X with a Phylactery of Positive Channeling.
Even then hitpoints aren't as decisive as conditions/spells.
Haste is good...but sadly haste is pretty weak compared to the ridiculous cleric spell:
Blessing of fervor in my opinion is simply the best buff ever made. I look at all the higher levels buff...none of them come close to that much bang for your bucks and buffing the entire party too.
I always liked haste better personally. Comes earlier and gives you all of its benefits. The 2 things fervor can do that haste can't don't seem all that amazing to me.
If you don't know what you want to do:
Play a Cleric.
Clerics always felt like they took more planning ahead to me.
unless the cleric was a Cha based Channel BotAn extremely poor option as channeling falls off incredibly after a short time, each die only being 3.5 hitpoints worth and damage scaling far faster. The best build for channeling I've seen was a Life Oracle 4/Paladin X with a Phylactery of Positive Channeling.
Even then hitpoints aren't as decisive as conditions/spells.
true
channeling requires a lot of investment to be effective
it's the conditions that decide things more than hit points, unless you count 4th edition, where half hit points gave a condition capable of all sorts of things
or savage worlds where each wound inflicted a penalty on all rolls
I don't like to play oracles because the list of curses is too short for something that defines the flavor of the character so much.
I don't like to play oracles because the list of curses is too short for something that defines the flavor of the character so much.That's a big bummer for me too.
It's this gigantic class defining thing which is supposed to be personal and unique to each Oracle and there is only about a dozen of them.
6ish in the APG, 5ish in blood of angels and blood of fiends. I think we have new ones in another player companion coming out soon. I'll say its definitely pretty sad how few their are, much less quality.
I don't like to play oracles because the list of curses is too short for something that defines the flavor of the character so much.That's a big bummer for me too.
It's this gigantic class defining thing which is supposed to be personal and unique to each Oracle and there is only about a dozen of them.
This is part of the problem for me too. The other issue I have is there's no option for curse-less oracles. Generally, since curses end up being a net positive, it shouldn't be too game breaking to not take a curse, but by RAW, there's no way to do so. The closest I've gotten is taking Haunted whenever I don't want a curse, just because it's really the least character-defining curse. Still, the option to have a non-cursed archetype would be a godsend.
The closest I've gotten is taking Haunted whenever I don't want a curse, just because it's really the least character-defining curse.
Might want to look at the legalistic curse. Giving your word is pretty loose, and it may never come up depending on who you play with. Its always been my go to curse to be curseless. Downside is that most of its bonuses are high circumstantial, but that's not the worst thing in the world. Also makes a good candidate for your non beneficial curse for dual-cursed, imo.
The closest I've gotten is taking Haunted whenever I don't want a curse, just because it's really the least character-defining curse.Might want to look at the legalistic curse. Giving your word is pretty loose, and it may never come up depending on who you play with. Its always been my go to curse to be curseless. Downside is that most of its bonuses are high circumstantial, but that's not the worst thing in the world. Also makes a good candidate for your non beneficial curse for dual-cursed, imo.
Eh, I have had bad experiences. I haven't played with a DM like this in a while, but back in the day when effects like the legalistic curse showed up, some of my DMs took this as an excuse to be enormous pricks about it. With an effect as bad as Sickened, I'm not going to take it, even though I don't think the people I currently play with would be that bad about it.
Eh, I have had bad experiences. I haven't played with a DM like this in a while, but back in the day when effects like the legalistic curse showed up, some of my DMs took this as an excuse to be enormous pricks about it. With an effect as bad as Sickened, I'm not going to take it, even though I don't think the people I currently play with would be that bad about it.The closest I've gotten is taking Haunted whenever I don't want a curse, just because it's really the least character-defining curse.Might want to look at the legalistic curse. Giving your word is pretty loose, and it may never come up depending on who you play with. Its always been my go to curse to be curseless. Downside is that most of its bonuses are high circumstantial, but that's not the worst thing in the world. Also makes a good candidate for your non beneficial curse for dual-cursed, imo.
Understandable. Oddly enough, the ones I play with are more than likely willing to allow haunted to kill a teammate. Being haunted is awesome thematically! and I'd rather be haunted to be honest, but... killing my teammates as a result is a bit much for more.
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Clerics are better at being versatile, but oracles are better at specializing. <--How I see it.