|
Okay I started laughing hysterically here.
Second in regards to the life oracle getting more channels that's also showing signs of not reading. Life Oracles get 1 + charisma modifer versus the clerics 3 + charisma modifier. So while it is true you do in fact get a higher DC off of it I'd like to point out that a cleric can, with either the glory or heroism domains, get a +2 bonus to said DC. So an oracle with 18 charisma channeling is comparable to a glory cleric with 14 charisma. Ultimately they're even in this case too. Now having the elven oracle be able to drop favored bonuses into channel to...
So you think being at a -2 starting channel number equals being able to channel off your casting stat?
Interesting...
The other poster may not be aware of fervor but I am. I have a cleric and the above named oracle build. The cleric is not half as good as the single classed uber healing mystic theurge.
I think if my current wizard dies permanently, I will try a Spellscar Oracle. Anyone ever used that archetype?
The other poster may not be aware of fervor but I am. I have a cleric and the above named oracle build. The cleric is not half as good as the single classed uber healing mystic theurge.
If that's what you like so be it.
I'm merely pointing out the flaw in the belief that the oracle is better at channeling by dint of having a main casting stat tied to it. Yet, the cleric has more ways to actually augment and change the ability and has pretty much the same capability with less stat investment. So, no, not really better, just easier to use. And really unless you're playing around with dedicated healing builds or going into a certain prestige class the ability is a trap investment anyway.
Then of course there's spell selection. Clerics of any race with two domains just get more access to different spells, the aforementioned elven oracles just have more freedom of choice at the cost of having no real choice in race.
Roughly it all evens out. Whether or not you think one is better than the other is more opinion and taste than anything.
Understandable. Oddly enough, the ones I play with are more than likely willing to allow haunted to kill a teammate. Being haunted is awesome thematically! and I'd rather be haunted to be honest, but... killing my teammates as a result is a bit much for more.Eh, I have had bad experiences. I haven't played with a DM like this in a while, but back in the day when effects like the legalistic curse showed up, some of my DMs took this as an excuse to be enormous pricks about it. With an effect as bad as Sickened, I'm not going to take it, even though I don't think the people I currently play with would be that bad about it.The closest I've gotten is taking Haunted whenever I don't want a curse, just because it's really the least character-defining curse.Might want to look at the legalistic curse. Giving your word is pretty loose, and it may never come up depending on who you play with. Its always been my go to curse to be curseless. Downside is that most of its bonuses are high circumstantial, but that's not the worst thing in the world. Also makes a good candidate for your non beneficial curse for dual-cursed, imo.
How would Haunted kill a teammate? It's only mechanical effect is increasing the time it takes to retrieve an object, and making dropped items move further away, IIRC.
How would Haunted kill a teammate? It's only mechanical effect is increasing the time it takes to retrieve an object, and making dropped items move further away, IIRC.Understandable. Oddly enough, the ones I play with are more than likely willing to allow haunted to kill a teammate. Being haunted is awesome thematically! and I'd rather be haunted to be honest, but... killing my teammates as a result is a bit much for more.Eh, I have had bad experiences. I haven't played with a DM like this in a while, but back in the day when effects like the legalistic curse showed up, some of my DMs took this as an excuse to be enormous pricks about it. With an effect as bad as Sickened, I'm not going to take it, even though I don't think the people I currently play with would be that bad about it.The closest I've gotten is taking Haunted whenever I don't want a curse, just because it's really the least character-defining curse.Might want to look at the legalistic curse. Giving your word is pretty loose, and it may never come up depending on who you play with. Its always been my go to curse to be curseless. Downside is that most of its bonuses are high circumstantial, but that's not the worst thing in the world. Also makes a good candidate for your non beneficial curse for dual-cursed, imo.
It means taking two turns to grab a timely scroll, wand, or potion and saving a party member.
|
Roughly it all evens out. Whether or not you think one is better than the other is more opinion and taste than anything.
Arrgghgh, thats how all these threads turn out.
Its like arguing with your girlfriend, you both just become frustrated and the original question is never resolved. (Go ahead and get the obligatory girlfriend joke out of the way now...)We need some sort of build tool and have some set guidelines like dmg/rnd, sample control spell dc, # channels, etc.
This is part of the problem for me too. The other issue I have is there's no option for curse-less oracles. Generally, since curses end up being a net positive, it shouldn't be too game breaking to not take a curse, but by RAW, there's no way to do so. The closest I've gotten is taking Haunted whenever I don't want a curse, just because it's really the least character-defining curse. Still, the option to have a non-cursed archetype would be a godsend.I don't like to play oracles because the list of curses is too short for something that defines the flavor of the character so much.That's a big bummer for me too.
It's this gigantic class defining thing which is supposed to be personal and unique to each Oracle and there is only about a dozen of them.
Yeah ... as you say, since the curses are supposed to be net-positive, I'd certainly have no problem with a player simply not taking one, getting neither benefit nor hindrance.
Design Manager
|
I liked the Lunar Mystery on one of the new Skinwalkers from Blood of the Moon combo'd up with the Wrecker Curse. Virtually no downside since all of the combat was done with natural weapons but lots of good times.
Wrecker in general is one of my favorite curses, but it is a pretty situational one when it comes to how badly it hoses you over. Wolf-scarred Face seems like the worst of the curses out there as its penalty is debilitating and there aren't a lot of good ways to compensate for it.
a popular curse for powergamers, and for the nonprogression curse of the dual cursed oracles, is Tongues
tongues doesn't really penalize the oracle, it forces every other PC to take a skill point tax to counteract the Oracle's Free Language and open communication
and even then, the PC can be like, "i don't understand that, did you just insult me?" every time an Enemy surrenders and if they happen to have paladin levels, legally murder a surrendered foe without breaking their code, because they don't understand the surrender.
|
Having played both, I have found that the design of the character matters more than the class. I have had more success with a well designed oracle than a mediocre cleric. But that's no surprise, is it?
It seems to me that the oracle class lends itself more easily to specialization than the cleric class.
Having the haunted curse, I agree that it can be dangerous. I try to plan around that by holding one item that I think I might need.
|
That rather depends on whether or not you allow Paragon Surge. If you do the Oracle gets spontaneous access to the entire cleric and wizard list. The Cleric can only get spontaneous access to the whole Cleric list.
How's that? Expanded Arcana is still limited to your class list. Unless you are referring to some other use of Paragon Surge.
As for the OP, no, it is entirely you subjectively thinking that Oracles are inferior to Clerics. Oracles specialize better, Clerics are more versatile. It really depends on what you are going for.
It is not so extreme as some of the arguments try to portray on either side, really more a case of different flavor and effect. With an Oracle you decide your direction and pick a curse and mystery to fit, as opposed to a cleric who decides on a direction and pics a god and domains to fit. Possibly toss in an archetype on either side for fine tuning and... you basically have done the same thing either way, specialized your character by picking a focus. Only difference is a Cleric generally has more day to day flexibility, where the Oracle generally has more focused sustainability.
That rather depends on whether or not you allow Paragon Surge. If you do the Oracle gets spontaneous access to the entire cleric and wizard list. The Cleric can only get spontaneous access to the whole Cleric list.How's that? Expanded Arcana is still limited to your class list. Unless you are referring to some other use of Paragon Surge.
You take Eldritch Heritage (Arcane Bloodline) then use Paragon Surge to get Improved Eldritch Heritage, which lets you select a sorc/wizard spell and add it to your list. It is ridiculous.
|
|
You take Eldritch Heritage (Arcane Bloodline) then use Paragon Surge to get Improved Eldritch Heritage, which lets you select a sorc/wizard spell and add it to your list. It is ridiculous.
That rather depends on whether or not you allow Paragon Surge. If you do the Oracle gets spontaneous access to the entire cleric and wizard list. The Cleric can only get spontaneous access to the whole Cleric list.How's that? Expanded Arcana is still limited to your class list. Unless you are referring to some other use of Paragon Surge.
Ah, gotcha, I was looking at single feat grabs only and not further down trees! I always prefer to ask because with all the feats and abilities out there, there is bound to be something I have missed!
Ah, gotcha, I was looking at single feat grabs only and not further down trees! I always prefer to ask because with all the feats and abilities out there, there is bound to be something I have missed!You take Eldritch Heritage (Arcane Bloodline) then use Paragon Surge to get Improved Eldritch Heritage, which lets you select a sorc/wizard spell and add it to your list. It is ridiculous.
That rather depends on whether or not you allow Paragon Surge. If you do the Oracle gets spontaneous access to the entire cleric and wizard list. The Cleric can only get spontaneous access to the whole Cleric list.How's that? Expanded Arcana is still limited to your class list. Unless you are referring to some other use of Paragon Surge.
Tis only natural to miss some stuff. But yeah, Paragon Surge allows for some pretty nutty stuff. It's why most folks ban the stuff.
Paragon surge is no different from trading a 3rd level slot for a scroll.
Paragon surge is no different from trading a 3rd level slot for a scroll.
Of your choice, for any spell level, and can be from another spell caster's list. Whenever you want.
|
|
Tis only natural to miss some stuff. But yeah, Paragon Surge allows for some pretty nutty stuff. It's why most folks ban the stuff.StuffOtherOf
Lots
Oh, I am well aware of Paragon Surge and it's abilities... and even the Arcane bloodline Heritage dip, just that in this case I thought it was in reference to a single (possibly corner case) feat one could grab and grant some unfair access. Honestly, since you have to grab 2 prior feats (one you can get for free if you don't trade the ability away)just to get that spell of choice, I don't think there is too much PS BS ;)
It is not so extreme as some of the arguments try to portray on either side, really more a case of different flavor and effect. With an Oracle you decide your direction and pick a curse and mystery to fit, as opposed to a cleric who decides on a direction and pics a god and domains to fit. Possibly toss in an archetype on either side for fine tuning and... you basically have done the same thing either way, specialized your character by picking a focus. Only difference is a Cleric generally has more day to day flexibility, where the Oracle generally has more focused sustainability.
Well, sort of. When you make a cleric your always compromising with your god unless you use houserules or the god has exactly what you want, while oracles have not only greater freedom but revelations tend to give more than domains. I'd also say oracle archetypes are better than clerics are oracles have more to trade out, but that's a bit of an opinion.
|
|
It is not so extreme as some of the arguments try to portray on either side, really more a case of different flavor and effect. With an Oracle you decide your direction and pick a curse and mystery to fit, as opposed to a cleric who decides on a direction and pics a god and domains to fit. Possibly toss in an archetype on either side for fine tuning and... you basically have done the same thing either way, specialized your character by picking a focus. Only difference is a Cleric generally has more day to day flexibility, where the Oracle generally has more focused sustainability.Well, sort of. When you make a cleric your always compromising with your god unless you use houserules or the god has exactly what you want, while oracles have not only greater freedom but revelations tend to give more than domains. I'd also say oracle archetypes are better than clerics are oracles have more to trade out, but that's a bit of an opinion.
You are compromising, which I said in that bit you quoted. However, that Cleric can always sleep on it and the next day have need specific spells ready to go the next day, where the Oracle is limited and generally focused in that regard. I think that in general the Oracle mysteries grant them better powers to help focus their abilities than a Cleric's domains do, but the cleric always retains more versatility than an Oracle. Neither is so extreme as to give the other a real edge in anything other than favored play style.
Since we have several fields of debate:
Melee divine, Healing divine, Support(buff) divine, Other(blaster?) divine.How about folks throw out some builds and we can side-by-side comparison?
At least with regards to the healing and melee roles.
Sure, why not? I whipped up a quick Level 1 Oracle, using basic PFS build rules (20 point buy, 150GP)
Asmira, Chelaxian Oracle of Battle
STR 14
DEX 14
CON 14
INT 10
WIS 10
CHA 16
Fort: 2 Ref: 2 Will: 2
AC: 17 (19 w/Shield of Faith) Touch: 12 Flat: 17
HP: 10
Attacks: Greatsword +3 (2d6+2, 19-20)(Sun Metal adds +1d4 fire)
Curse: Tongues (Infernal)
Revelations: Skill at Arms, Weapon Mastery (Greatsword)
Orisons: Guidance, Resistance, Stabilize, Light
1st Level Spells: Cure Light Wounds, Shield of Faith, Sun Metal
Feats: Extra Revelation, Power Attack
Traits: Soul Drinker, Faith's Hunter
Skills:
Diplomacy +7, Intimidate +7, Knowledge (planes) +4, Knowledge (religion) +4
Gear: Greatsword, Scale Mail, Pathfinder's Kit, Warhammer, 26GP
Paragon surge is no different from trading a 3rd level slot for a scroll.No it isn't. Paragon surge is like changing a 3rd level spell slot for 1 or 2 scrolls from your entire spell list which cast using your own casting stat and to which your feats, in particular metamagic feats, all apply.
What it allows Oracles to do is to ignore all of those situational spells which they might otherwise want to have available and instead grab immediately useful stuff while still being able to do all of the situational issues.
still, i have no issues with it
yes, it opens up flexbility on a highly inflexible class
but clerics, druids and wizards, have complete access to their spell lists and have for years
and sorcerers have had their class abilities handed out on a platinum platter for like a decade. whether in the form of feats, or in the form of iconic monstrous races.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
In the end the Oracle, no matter what cool revelations you have, is a failure as a healer. A cleric can be the healer just by leaving most of his third level slots unprepared to stick remove X spells into.
If only there were some way to store a spell and use it for later, especially in the case of common ailments or problem solving needs you may have and know you may come across. Good thing regular healing is well known for being useful in all situations and clerics are the kings of channeling... Oh wait.
I think if my current wizard dies permanently, I will try a Spellscar Oracle. Anyone ever used that archetype?
I'm running a Samsaran Spellscar Oracle. I swapped out Shards of the Past for Mystic Past Life and take the racial favored class. All said and done, racial and class abilities make my oracle very sturdy defensively, allowing me to focus on damage-dealing, debuffing, and healing.
Oracles, that I've seen, are specialists. Clerics are much more versatile, but aren't going to be as good as an Oracle at their schtick.
As an example, Melee Clerics aren't as good at melee as Battle Oracles, but then a Battle Oracle's class abilities and spells known are going to have to revolve around battle and melee, and without full access to their entire spell list every day, won't be able to cast whatever's needed in a given situation. Paragon surge is the only way that I've seen to get around this, but I've not used that option and am fairly unfamiliar with it.
|
In the end the Oracle, no matter what cool revelations you have, is a failure as a healer. A cleric can be the healer just by leaving most of his third level slots unprepared to stick remove X spells into.If only a spell could let you cast all remove X spells spontaneously.
If you actually roleplay then oracles have no place as adventurers in any setting that also has clerics.
Yes, clearly playing an adventurer who gets incredible divine powers through his speech impediment, limp, or inability to break his word [legalistic] has no place adventuring, and thinking otherwise is badwrongfun.
If you actually roleplay nothing but douchebags then oracles have no place as adventurers in any...
Fixed that for you.