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I think they're included in the Bestiary because of tradition from several previous editions of Dungeons and Dragons.That... and because we've got plans for them eventually. Also because they're one of my favorite D&D monsters and as such, there was pretty much no way we'd do an OGL game without them.
Indeed, bring on the puppet masters ;)
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I don't get the sentiment that if something isn't of an earthshaking CR it isn't big and scary. Take a party of 4th level characters and an Aboleth is one of the tougher things they might expect to actually defeat.
I'm exited to see these new aboleth variants, however long it is before they come out.
I'm exited to see these new aboleth variants, however long it is before they come out.
Could always use one of the ones from a previous edition and convert them or create your own.
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My take:
Aboleths are more than the sum of their stats. It's how they are played. They are sneaky, intelligent and manipulative and should be presented that way. They don't go roaring into a one on one battle with the PCs. They will ensure that there are minions aplenty to winnow down the PCs, they will make sure that the PCs are unaware that Aboleths are involved. They will know the PCs abilities and weaknesses before they come into direct conflict and will be ready to avoid strengths and exploit vulnerabilities.
But, that's just how I see them.
That's the Aboleth in a nutshell. They pull the strings while smiling the entire time.
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I'm actually glad Aboleth are the CR that they are. They're terrifying all on their own to parties in the 6 and lower range making them viable bad guys for lower level adventures, and they make a lot of sense to slap class levels on to up the oomph. I actually prefer baddies like this to be CR 7-10; it means they'll actually get used more. If they're CR 15, that means that they won't show up until a lot of campaigns are hitting their end, and makes them unuseable for most PFS play. 7 is a good CR.....
You know how Aboleths are really evil?
When your level 10 party spends half a year (hitting level 20 in the process) unraveling an adventure\mystery that spans half the globe and takes them against the most awesome foes to find after they kill the ancient dragon that there was another foe behind it all - one that ran the entire plot from stem to stern.
A little CR 7 creature that poses barely any threat to them - other than it's diabolical mind.
In a game like that the aboleth is likely to have class levels and not be a CR 7 that the ancient dragon would have owned for trying to manipulate it. :)
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In a game like that the aboleth is likely to have class levels and not be a CR 7 that the ancient dragon would have owned for trying to manipulate it. :)
LOL
Young Aboleth: OBEY ME, BEAST! MY WILL IS SUPREME!!
Ancient Dragon: Fails save from ROFLAO, then takes the creature to be his plaything for the rest of its short life.
Some abilities are definitely more powerful than others. Ghosts are fearsome. Aboleths wield the most heinous magic and have other abilities to make you not notice.
Some abilities are definitely more powerful than others. Ghosts are fearsome. Aboleths wield the most heinous magic and have other abilities to make you not notice.
Adventurer: Oh look, an illusion! I'm so scared. Don't you see me shaking in my boo-.
Their spell list could be more amazing. Its not very enchanting and illusions only do so much. That said, dominate person isn't the nicest thing in the world(which is why we all buy immunity.)
I think people are also forgetting something else. CR can be a damn trap. It's less severe in Pathfinder but look back at D&D. That CR 4 owlbear would walk up to a party theoretically leveled beyond it and just lay down the hammer. Aboleths were originally much the same.
I dont think 2nd edition and earlier had CR's, but in 3.5 you could normally be ok unless you were dealing with the fiend folio or later monster manual books which seems to account for power creep.
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It's silly to judge a whole race of creatures by the Bestiary entry for a single, average example of the race, and frankly shortsighted and unimaginative to judge it solely by its Challenge Rating.
There are incredibly powerful and fearsome orcs out there who can conquer entire continents, but you wouldn't know it from the CR of the orc entry. You know it from the fluff and from the simple and obvious expectation that they can be advanced.
The Bestiary describes the aboleths as an ancient race that once ruled over basically everything. They aren't that anymore, but they do still have entire cities, hidden beneath the waves. No doubt there are supremely advanced and terrifyingly powerful aboleths ruling those places.
Moreover, the description of aboleths as alien-thinking, cold and calculating is a guide to the GM to play them in ways different from other CR 7 creatures. This is no thug giant, but a coldly intelligent, calculating aberration that can dream up such awful things as the common PC has never faced and might not survive with sanity intact.
I understand what the flavor says, but I think a lot of their accomplishments were not due to the standard CR 7 version. While the CR 7 version is not a slouch, they are not the ones responsible for what the race has done. They just happen to be the ones people know about. The ones in charge don't mind their lesser's getting the credit or even being overlooked as weaker than they make the race/species appear to be. Either way the attention is off of them(more powerful ones), and they dont have to worry about adventurers trying to hunt them down or meddle in other ways.
Adventurer: Oh look, an illusion! I'm so scared. Don't you see me shaking in my boo-.
Their spell list could be more amazing. Its not very enchanting and illusions only do so much. That said, dominate person isn't the nicest thing in the world(which is why we all buy immunity.)
That's just their racials. I'm honestly surprised at anyone who critiques base racial spell-like abilities especially a 9th level spell granted at basically level 7 with a 16 CL. The human spell list could be greatly improved too, though. It's utterly garbage.
That's just their racials. I'm honestly surprised at anyone who critiques base racial spell-like abilities especially a 9th level spell granted at basically level 7 with a 16 CL. The human spell list could be greatly improved too, though. It's utterly garbage.Adventurer: Oh look, an illusion! I'm so scared. Don't you see me shaking in my boo-.
Their spell list could be more amazing. Its not very enchanting and illusions only do so much. That said, dominate person isn't the nicest thing in the world(which is why we all buy immunity.)
I'm sorry for judging something based on its spell list? If you just leave it to a variable then its rather difficult to judge. I don't like judging a variable, so instead I judge the static statblock. Their spell list isn't full of 'the most heinous magic' and they don't really put fear or shock into me outside of their bio and what I know about their culture, which is all meta. I suppose you could build one with a heinous magic spell list, even custom spells, but you could do the same with anyone.
Don't apologize. I merely responded in kind to your own sarcasm. The heinous part was the dominate monster. Stripping someone of their will and turning them into an essentially mindless slave for half a month per casting is pretty egregious. Most other spells have some other effect like damage or are short lived by comparison. If you happen upon a neutral one, no protection from x or magic circle spell will help either. Even paladins don't get immunity to them. They only get charms, not compulsions.
On the illusions, using veil is a pretty nifty trick. Kill the princess the party is trying to save and assume her form. That's an instant in with the PCs to do their work with their guard likely down.
So, the dragon rolls a 1 on the save and is potentially a slave for life. I saw a similar thing happen in my Rise campaign where our level 10 wizard used magic jar on a CR 16 creature that was meant to just terrorize the party and gtfo. The next several encounters were instant win. Had it been an aboleth PC, that CR 16 would still be with the party rather than just the few moments of awesome we got to enjoy.
So, I'm glad you can hand wave the spell into obsolescence. I can't.
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Again, the bestiary stat block is for the equivalent of a 1st level commoner aboleth. We don't write off elves, dwarves, humans, etc as worthless because their 1st level commoners are pretty unimpressive. Why should we with aboleths, who's 1st level commoners are actually pretty g+~#!$n intimidating?
Again, the bestiary stat block is for the equivalent of a 1st level commoner aboleth. We don't write off elves, dwarves, humans, etc as worthless because their 1st level commoners are pretty unimpressive. Why should we with aboleths, who's 1st level commoners are actually pretty g%#&!%n intimidating?
Tarrasque commoners are OP. Nerf plz.
Night Below was my favorite campaign before I found the Anniversary Edition of Runelords (and also Reign of Winter).
I definitely think we need another Underdark AP. And having the Aboleth be the threat involved in this would be most enjoyable. :) Especially as I've no interest in running Night Below again (translating it to Pathfinder would be too annoying, and really I can't one-up the modified Night Below campaign I ran a decade ago (which included several Ravenloft adventures from Dungeon Magazine, the "Lady of the Mists" storyline in which they saved the Lady, and homebrewed twists that included an ancient prophecy concerning one of the Shadowbourne Family's eventual ascension into Godhood, only to be cut down at the very moment of becoming a God).
Heh. Actually the Aboleth ended up playing second fiddle in that campaign. Still were a fun and nasty threat. :)
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Aboleths aren't even spell-role monsters, so a level 7 aboleth wizard is still only CR 10 I think, and anything else is CR Level +3 (I think?), and trading off three levels of wizard for those at-will SLAs, with probably boosted DCs (the DCs of an aboleth's SLAs are charisma-based, so either from the ability score reassignment due to gaining levels, ability points from leveling up, magical items, buff spells, or whatever, the DC would probably be higher), plus more HP and better saves and BAB, would probably be a good tradeoff.
Edit: They'd also be good Arcanists. I wonder if Aboleth Arcanists make sense in Golarion, or if they're too entrenched in their ways for that kind of magical experimentation?
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Always loved the aboleth, loved night below one of the first AD&D games I DMed, Aboleth are creepy slimy primordial fish things that ooze slime and terror. Ive never been able to use an aboleth as a mundane encounter they always strike me as that alien horror out of the dawn of prehistory that's beyond the understanding of puny mortal minds. Damned be CR a monster is scary because of its habits, methods, appearance and a number of factors above and beyond raw numbers.
Its easy to add numbers and beef a critter up, its pure monster gold when a monster is interesting, terrifying, disgusting and horrifying all in one package.
Simply going by the 3.5 version, right off the bat you would have giant advanced aboleths floating around, and also aboleth 10th level wizards. The CR 7 aboleth probably isn't a "commoner," (for one thing, that's a weird concept for a race of archaic horrors) but it's still basically the equivalent of the CR 1 warrior guarding the watchtower. So, the CR 7 aboleth is the nasty thing some level PCs run into while tracking some skums down and exploring a merfolk city. The things quietly plotting the downfall of all airbreathers? At the low end, you have the CR giant advanced mythic aboleth and his CR 13 "court wizard" and a dominated merfolk ranger.
I wonder if Aboleth Arcanists make sense in Golarion, or if they're too entrenched in their ways for that kind of magical experimentation?
Some of them probably learned that stuff in aboleth elementary school, before the rise of the airbreathers.
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Giant, Half Dragon, Advanced, Lich Aboleth.... because screw you and your logic...
Giant, Half Dragon, Advanced, Lich Aboleth.... because screw you and your logic...
I think Aboleths would be down for making some of those. It sounds like something to do with a saturday night.
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I don't know that I'd say aboleths shouldn't be put in a caster role. You slap class levels on an aboleth, especially if they're wizard levels, and the party you're GMing for is probably going to arrange a sock party that night. There are also rules in place that dictate how a creature that runs off racial hit dice can be advanced by adding more racial hit dice. Give one of them enough racial "levels" to be CR 15. Most parties whose APL is around that area will get curbstomped in record time.
That said, the wizard/cleric Aboleths ended up not being nearly as effective due to their not being able to cast enough spells to make up for multi-classing despite their higher levels. I suppose the easiest way to recreate those Aboleths, however, would be to have them be Mystic Theurges....
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I wonder if Aboleth Arcanists make sense in Golarion, or if they're too entrenched in their ways for that kind of magical experimentation?
To an Aboleth, it might be less 'experimental' and more 'absolute mastery'. That is, they don't need experiments to rediscover lost knowledge: they never lost it.
Question: Why are we discussing fighting aboleths directly? Why would they do that? Fluff-wise they obviously aren't creatures that get into fistfights with a bunch of landlings, they're more like the Dominion from Star Trek: Deep Space 9, sending in foot soldiers, dopplegangers while they sit at home making plans. In fact the last time I used Aboleths as villains the players pointed out that they were basically playing Deep Space 9 with the Skum as Jem'Hadar, the Ugathols as proxy Changelings replacing key officials, and the Gilmen filling in for Cardassians.
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That said, the wizard/cleric Aboleths ended up not being nearly as effective due to their not being able to cast enough spells to make up for multi-classing despite their higher levels. I suppose the easiest way to recreate those Aboleths, however, would be to have them be Mystic Theurges....
Yeah, limitations of the system at the time, but a Mystic Theurge would be appropriate. I could see Aboleths covering down on Oracle levels as well and come to think of it, Words of Power from UM is also an appropriate variation for their spell casters.
Question: Why are we discussing fighting aboleths directly? Why would they do that? Fluff-wise they obviously aren't creatures that get into fistfights with a bunch of landlings, they're more like the Dominion from Star Trek: Deep Space 9, sending in foot soldiers, dopplegangers while they sit at home making plans. In fact the last time I used Aboleths as villains the players pointed out that they were basically playing Deep Space 9 with the Skum as Jem'Hadar, the Ugathols as proxy Changelings replacing key officials, and the Gilmen filling in for Cardassians.
Except that you need to fight the Aboleth eventually...
Question: Why are we discussing fighting aboleths directly? Why would they do that? Fluff-wise they obviously aren't creatures that get into fistfights with a bunch of landlings, they're more like the Dominion from Star Trek: Deep Space 9, sending in foot soldiers, dopplegangers while they sit at home making plans. In fact the last time I used Aboleths as villains the players pointed out that they were basically playing Deep Space 9 with the Skum as Jem'Hadar, the Ugathols as proxy Changelings replacing key officials, and the Gilmen filling in for Cardassians.Except that you need to fight the Aboleth eventually...
When I designed an encounter with an aboleth he had a guard of gillmen magi that hid behind it's illusions and mirror image themselves. it was also under water making the whole thing somewhat difficult. even fighting directly an aboleth is more likely to use trickery and minions than not.
A quip from the Into the Darklands book calls them "fish controlling the minds of nations." That's about the most succinct source description to them I have.
In a game like that the aboleth is likely to have class levels and not be a CR 7 that the ancient dragon would have owned for trying to manipulate it. :)LOL
Young Aboleth: OBEY ME, BEAST! MY WILL IS SUPREME!!
Ancient Dragon: Fails save from ROFLAO, then takes the creature to be his plaything for the rest of its short life.
Well this type of thinking is why a CR 7 creature seems so weak to you - while in my scenario the CR 7 creature has dominated 3 kingdoms above ground and a drow city using political contacts and favors to eventually get the dragon to throw in due to a power grab.
The Aboleth isn't stupid enough to try and enslave a dragon (unless perhaps it found an orb of dragonkind) - but that's the *point* of the 'brains behind it all' type of thing - no the Aboleth isn't the end fight - that already happened - its the terror of knowing that a single fish could manipulate so much that is at the heart of using one of these as a bad guy.
In a game like that the aboleth is likely to have class levels and not be a CR 7 that the ancient dragon would have owned for trying to manipulate it. :)LOL
Young Aboleth: OBEY ME, BEAST! MY WILL IS SUPREME!!
Ancient Dragon: Fails save from ROFLAO, then takes the creature to be his plaything for the rest of its short life.
Well this type of thinking is why a CR 7 creature seems so weak to you - while in my scenario the CR 7 creature has dominated 3 kingdoms above ground and a drow city using political contacts and favors to eventually get the dragon to throw in due to a power grab.
The Aboleth isn't stupid enough to try and enslave a dragon (unless perhaps it found an orb of dragonkind) - but that's the *point* of the 'brains behind it all' type of thing - no the Aboleth isn't the end fight - that already happened - its the terror of knowing that a single fish could manipulate so much that is at the heart of using one of these as a bad guy.
this is exactly how ive always run them.
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In a game like that the aboleth is likely to have class levels and not be a CR 7 that the ancient dragon would have owned for trying to manipulate it. :)LOL
Young Aboleth: OBEY ME, BEAST! MY WILL IS SUPREME!!
Ancient Dragon: Fails save from ROFLAO, then takes the creature to be his plaything for the rest of its short life.
Well this type of thinking is why a CR 7 creature seems so weak to you - while in my scenario the CR 7 creature has dominated 3 kingdoms above ground and a drow city using political contacts and favors to eventually get the dragon to throw in due to a power grab.
The Aboleth isn't stupid enough to try and enslave a dragon (unless perhaps it found an orb of dragonkind) - but that's the *point* of the 'brains behind it all' type of thing - no the Aboleth isn't the end fight - that already happened - its the terror of knowing that a single fish could manipulate so much that is at the heart of using one of these as a bad guy.
I have had the pleasure of playing through Night Below so I understand what Aboleth are capable of. I know it wasn't intentional, but next time, try not to zero in on a single comment I made in response to a poster that made a humorous comment without seeing if I had made any prior posts indicating that they are indeed puppet masters. They pull the strings and people/kingdoms dance.
I think we're missing the real question here, which is: Do the aboleths sound like Daleks when they talk? :)
Seriously, a sensible Aboleth adventure would have lots of encounters with pre-dominated monsters. The Aboleth's melee abilities are nothing to write home about and I think that generally they will try to get others to fight for them if fighting is necessary.
I can certainly envision the Aboleths also having a network of servitors who operate underground, similar to the Red Mantis assassins. These agents could kidnap important people and bring them before an Aboleth so that the person could be dominated and then returned to his normal life. Who knows how far such a conspiracy could go?
Do Aboleths have their own deities? OR are they above such things?
What classes do people think will work best for Aboleths?
Peet
How did they justify Cleric Aboleths flavor-wise? Or was it non-Golarion Aboleths that aren't atheists?
In Golarion I suppose Oracle Aboleths are possible, or a rogue crazy one that somehow likes a god...
If you ever want to really shock the party you can shock them with an aboleth variant.
"Oh don't worry guys, its just a beached aboleth and we all know those are- holy crap it flies!?"
How did they justify Cleric Aboleths flavor-wise? Or was it non-Golarion Aboleths that aren't atheists?
In Golarion I suppose Oracle Aboleths are possible, or a rogue crazy one that somehow likes a god...
In 3.5 Lords of Madness they give 5 possitlve deities for the Aboleths to follow, all of whom are Elder Evils and they also give the Lovecraft deity counterparts if you want them to follow one of them instead. Your not going to find a Aboleth worshipping that Saranrae character, that person's a little too young(They can remember the religion starting!), how about Cthulhu or Nyarthelotep? They're agnostics who believe the gods fallible, not atheist.
An Aboleth religion`s domains would probably include some of:
Law, Evil, Madness, Trickery, Charm, Darkness, Water.
Any others?
I am glad for this thread. I had seen them as annoyingly evil fish for many years.