I was asked if this would work, but I haven't looked into it before.
A primarily melee/martial eldritch knight or dragon disciple. using mostly spells without somatic components so can still wear armor with no spell failure.
Would prefer not to use up a feat on still spell either. Would probably eventually buy a lesser metamagic rod of still spell, so could have 3 spells a day.
Has anyone tried it? Did it work? What were your primary spell choices?
With the spell search tool on d20pfsrd here is a list of spells without somatic components.
Feather Fall (Lvl 1)
Hold Portal (Lvl 1)
True Strike (Lvl 1)
Blindness/Deafness (Lvl 2*)
Blur (Lvl 2)
Knock (Lvl 2)
Dimension Door (Lvl 4*)
Geas, Lesser (Lvl 4*)
Shout (Lvl 4)
Contact Other Plane (Lvl 5*)
Teleport (Lvl 5*)
Geas/Quest (Lvl 6*)
Phase Door (Lvl 7)
Power Word Blind (Lvl 7)
Teleport Object (Lvl 7)
Teleport, Greater (Lvl 7*)
Charm Monster, Mass (Lvl 8*)
Irresistible Dance (Lvl 8*)
Power Word Stun (Lvl 8)
Mage's Disjunction (Lvl 9)
Power Word Kill (Lvl 9)
Prismatic Sphere (Lvl 9)
Time Stop (Lvl 9)
Wail of the Banshee (Lvl 9)
Not a lot of choices. :(
Wow is that all? (Didn't know you could search that way, thanks.)
Doesn't sound like that is likely to work out very well then.
Yeah Still spell is really underrated in my opinion -- with it you can have a tower shield, full plate and something in your hand and still cast with no fear.
Something to think about though is your long term buff spells -- like false life. You can effectively cast those before you put your armor on and expect them to last most the day.
Well the still spell meta magic feat opens up all of the verbal / somatic spells as well. Throw on eschew materials and you can cast anything if you're okay with the +1 spell level tax.
Anyone trid going the still spell armored caster route?
You would already be behind at least 1 level of spell from what ever you were multiclassed in to get the gish aspects. Plus another from the still spell feat. So you'd be at least 2 full spell levels lower. But, Your AC should be alot higher. Not sure if that is worth it or not.
I was asked if this would work, but I haven't looked into it before.
A primarily melee/martial eldritch knight or dragon disciple. using mostly spells without somatic components so can still wear armor with no spell failure.
Would prefer not to use up a feat on still spell either. Would probably eventually buy a lesser metamagic rod of still spell, so could have 3 spells a day.Has anyone tried it? Did it work? What were your primary spell choices?
Instead of Still Spell, how about Arcane Armor Training (Combat)? Spend a swift to reduce ASF by 10%. Later, go for Arcane Armor Mastery (Combat) for 20%. When you want to do a little extra damage in melee instead, use Arcane Strike (Combat).
/cevah
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Instead of Still Spell, how about Arcane Armor Training (Combat)Kinda defeats the purpose of the thread to use Arcane Armor Training.
Armored Caster w/o Arcane Armor Training
*facepalm*
/cevah
I was asked if this would work, but I haven't looked into it before.
A primarily melee/martial eldritch knight or dragon disciple. using mostly spells without somatic components so can still wear armor with no spell failure.
Would prefer not to use up a feat on still spell either. Would probably eventually buy a lesser metamagic rod of still spell, so could have 3 spells a day.Has anyone tried it? Did it work? What were your primary spell choices?
I'm working on something like this. He isn't high level yet...
But the basic plan is just remarkably high Str, crossblooded dragon/orc sorc (half-orc) that'll prestige into DD for 4 levels, and back to sorc.
He should eventually get up to 50+ Str...
For spellcasting, Magical Lineage and Wayang Spellhunter are key. Since both his bloodlines fuel his damage spells pretty nicely, and he will have nearly full casting progression, his blastin should be well above par, and the overwhelming str makes his melee viable enough despite lower bab.
As for armor...
Once spell slots are high enough level to start chucking out quickened spells, (namely burning hands) armor is open game. But without any proficiencies... the proposition is still a quandary.
I'm aware his biggest weakness for a frontline type is his AC... but I haven't fully resolved that yet. A level dip into Oracle of Lore might be the best option, shield and medium proficiency, as well as Cha to AC/Ref shore up his weaknesses pretty well.
Or you could just wear the armor without proficiency. If you take spells that don't require attack rolls, who cares if your attack bonus is negative in the double digits?
I may consider that for a future full caster. But in this case we are actually trying to work out a gish type character.
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For some more detail that I left out of the initial post. I was trying to build a mostly martial gish and not use up any of my precious few feats with the 2 arcane armor feats.
The haramaki is a possibility, but until at least medium level I won't be able to afford one that will out perform mage armor. Even then, I would have to shell out for a +4 to do better.
The spell failure of 20% is way to high for the armored coat. And I don't think I want to be constantly putting it on and taking it off in a fight. But I will ask my friend if he has considered it.
So I think we're left with:
1) Dex gish, using mage armor and maybe shield for tough fights. AC should be good enough to hold off mooks. Bosses will get through most of the time though (though it will work against incorp). May need to burn a bunch of 1st level spells and 1st round actions for shield. Spell casting not affected at all though. Doesn't use up any of my feats. But I'll probably need 1 for weapon finesse.
2) Str gish, using still spell and heavy armor. Potentially great AC. Still uses 1 feat, but that is better than 2 and I don't have to wait to take it. The level hit really hammers the spell casting though.
Not really enamored with either option. Guess I'll stat them both up to about level 8 or so and see how it seems to work out.
Thanks for the suggestions.
Or you could just wear the armor without proficiency. If you take spells that don't require attack rolls, who cares if your attack bonus is negative in the double digits?
Assuming that you genuinely don't know why wizards don't wear armour, take a look at something called 'arcane spell failure' on the armour tables.
To the OP: do you have some reasons to avoid using Bracers of Armour? Yes, they're not as good as proper armour but you can still get a decent AC if you make a Dex build.
Or you could just wear the armor without proficiency. If you take spells that don't require attack rolls, who cares if your attack bonus is negative in the double digits?Assuming that you genuinely don't know why wizards don't wear armour, take a look at something called 'arcane spell failure' on the armour tables.
Assuming you hadn't actually paid attention to the thread; take a look at those parts of the conversation where they were talking about using spells without somatic components. Ponder for a moment. Rethink your tone?
Assuming you hadn't actually paid attention to the thread; take a look at those parts of the conversation where they were talking about using spells without somatic components. Ponder for a moment. Rethink your tone?Or you could just wear the armor without proficiency. If you take spells that don't require attack rolls, who cares if your attack bonus is negative in the double digits?Assuming that you genuinely don't know why wizards don't wear armour, take a look at something called 'arcane spell failure' on the armour tables.
You may (and probably will) object to my tone as much as you like, Imbicatus was either trolling or would benefit from knowing about spell failure. Imbicatus can object to my tone without needing extra snark from either of us.
My question to Revolving Door was genuine. I have read the posts etc about his request for non-somatic spells and I wanted to know why he didn't want to use the standard alternative.
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You may (and probably will) object to my tone as much as you like, Imbicatus was either trolling or would benefit from knowing about spell failure. Imbicatus can object to my tone without needing extra snark from either of us.My question to Revolving Door was genuine. I have read the posts etc about his request for non-somatic spells and I wanted to know why he didn't want to use the standard alternative.
I was not trolling, and I was aware of Arcane Spell Failure. I am also aware that Arcane Spell Failure only applies when spells have a somatic component. Since the OP was about using spells that DO NOT HAVE A SOMATIC COMPONENT, either naturally or via Still Spell, Arcane Spell Failure does not apply.
Please read the entire thread before accusing someone of trolling.
... Assuming that you genuinely don't know why wizards don't wear armour, take a look at something called 'arcane spell failure' on the armour tables...
That post was entirely appropriate in response to the couple of posts above it.
... You would already be behind at least 1 level of spell from what ever you were multiclassed in to get the gish aspects. Plus another from the still spell feat. So you'd be at least 2 full spell levels lower. But, Your AC should be alot higher. Not sure if that is worth it or not.
Or you could just wear the armor without proficiency. If you take spells that don't require attack rolls, who cares if your attack bonus is negative in the double digits?
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... To the OP: do you have some reasons to avoid using Bracers of Armour? Yes, they're not as good as proper armour but you can still get a decent AC if you make a Dex build. ... I have read the posts etc about his request for non-somatic spells and I wanted to know why he didn't want to use the standard alternative.
For reasonably close to the same cost you do not get nearly as good of AC. A friend was trying for a strength gish that was more of a front line weapon guy than a caster, but still has some casting abilities.
He doesn't feel that with a level appropriate expenditure on bracers he can operate effectively as a front line THW high strength combatant.
The usual build I see proposed is a high dex build using arcane armor training and arcane armor mastery and weapon finesse. This costs ability points in strength, 3 feats, and you can't even get the mastery until mid levels and it only gets you medium armor. Which with a MAD high dex build still isn't a great AC.
Therefore the initial post was trying to see if you could just rely on non-somatic spells and go ahead with the heavy armor. But no, that doesn't seem viable.
So then the options become; high strength and ignore the crappy AC, high strength and still spell, or some type of dex build. None of those options are exactly what he was looking for. My guess is he will go for the dex build, but it is not what he was looking for and isn't all that far from his current switch hitting ranger build.
Thank you, that makes sense and now I understand what was desired. Unfortunately I also don't know of a viable build. A monk dip would be even more MAD. Synthesis summoner or magus might be a way of getting combat and spell casting but would not have the same flavour.
... Synthesis summoner or magus might be a way of getting combat and spell casting but would not have the same flavour.
Currently he wants the wizard spell list. Though he may consider magus with arcana going for the expanded spells known, I doubt he will pick that.
Consider the duskblade or warmage classes of 3.5
A 3.5 feat allows you to cast in armor one category heavier than you already could. So a bard could cast in medium armor. Sorry I do nit recall the name or if you can take the feat twice and stack.
As a group we are usually trying to stay away from 3.x stuff. And he may be considering this for his next PFS character rather than the home game.
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Another option for a caster gish would be Theologian Cleric or a Storm/Tempest Druid. Depending on the Domain picked, you would get access to a fair number of Arcane spells, and you don't have to worry about Arcane Spell Failure. Using Wis instead of INT also helps your Will Save.
I know it's not what the player was thinking of, but it can work. And hey, you also have access to heal spells in a pinch.
When trying out a build using still spell the crossblooded sorc could work well because if you use metamagic you don't have to care as much about getting spells late. You get spell slots at the normal sorc rate, after all.
And assuming you don't want to use the armor without prof I'd dip into a devine caster class to not only get proficency but some 1st level divine spells, too.
For heavy armor that would mean to go either crusader cleric or warpriest. For medium armor there are nearly endless opportunities. With the skald even one arcane caster. And his spells suffer no ASF in medium armor.
So what I'd try is the skald 1/ crossblooded sorc X with still spell.
Another option for a caster gish would be Theologian Cleric or a Storm/Tempest Druid. Depending on the Domain picked, you would get access to a fair number of Arcane spells, and you don't have to worry about Arcane Spell Failure. Using Wis instead of INT also helps your Will Save.
I know it's not what the player was thinking of, but it can work. And hey, you also have access to heal spells in a pinch.
he is aware of those types of builds. But what he really wants this time around is all of the wizard divination and utility spells. Detect secret doors, seek thoughts, fly, pass wall, etc...
You can get some of them with divine casters, but not as many as he wants.Plus I think he very much does not want access to heal spells. He just got done playing a secondary healer that ended up almost a primary healer. He let some of the others push him too much into a healer role.
So what's so bad about taking Arcane Armor Mastery with the armored coat and its 20% spell failure chance?
Do you have plans for those swift actions?
Especially with divination and utility spells the armored coat to take it off, cast, don it seems possible. He'd just find something to do in combat.
But a damage cantrip with some buffs the still spell feat and magical lineage could solve that.
That way the mage could memorize mainly divinations/utility for out of combat, some important spells with still spell and ray of frost (or acid splash) with still spell, liquid ice (or acid) and perhaps some other buffs, depending on the group, to fill the combat rounds.
So what's so bad about taking Arcane Armor Mastery with the armored coat and its 20% spell failure chance?
Do you have plans for those swift actions?
In this case it is not so much the swift actions as it is the cost of 2 feats and not even being able to get the second feat until level 9 at the earliest as an EK.
So he won't be able to function as the desired front line combatant for 2/3 of his career or more.
Like I said, I will ask him about it. I doubt he will choose to be constantly putting on and taking off his armored protection. But I will present the option, I have certainly been wrong on what he would pick before this.
Use Tiger's Hide. ...
I will have to find out about that. I can't find it in any of the books I have. How much does it cost? It sounds expensive and what will he use until he can afford it. That still uses a feat and is only a +3 unless he goes for a dex build and he was wanting to go for a strength build.
He is not trying to be a tank, but if every mook hits and does damage, he won't be able to stand on the front line for long without a bunch of healing.
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Use Tiger's Hide.
"This +3 hide armor is made from tiger skin. It is magically treated to make it easier to move in, reducing its armor check penalty to 0, reducing its arcane spell failure chance to 10%, and increasing its maximum Dexterity bonus to +6. It grants DR 5/— against natural weapon attacks. In addition, the wearer can use the pounce special attack, but only during the first round she can act in any combat."
Blood of the Moon Companion booklet, and 54115 gold to buy.
As for Ravingdork's question of using swift actions, remember that Quickened Spells are Swift Actions =)
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Not PFS legal but Earlier today, I found a 3rd party publier product from respected former Dungeons & Dragons contributor Wolfgang Burr from Kobold press for a heavy armor, full bab, 4 level caster(think pal/ran). It was called the spell blade. Availible two ways. Either a single PDF for $4 or in a new compilation coming in January. The compilation PDF wis estimated at 15 and print at 30.
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if your friend wants to play a super high str melee caster, hes just going to have to eat the ASF. my advice would be for him to use the low ac items presented previously go 10/10 dragon diciple for the +6 natural armor and then just stack your wealth into ac boosting items.
at tenth level, assuming you were going to use your natural weapons or a single manufactured weapon, like an earth breaker, you shouldnt need much in the way of spent wealth on damage boosters. that frees up wealth for ring of protection, amulet of natural armor, fighting defensively and combat expertise (if you were going that route).
with a decent dex, or oracle of lore, you could get an ac of about...
Haramaki + armored kilt (+2ac) + 3 generic (10k total)+ mithril kylar +3 (11k total)+ RoP +3 (18k) + AoNA +3 (18k)+ 4 dex/cha + fighting defensively +3 (3 ranks in acrobatics)+ combat expertise +2(bab6) +4 (NA from DD + sorcerer levels) .
total: 2+3+1+3+3+3+4+3+2+4= 38 ac at level ten. 0 ASF and only a - 2 to hit. it will eat most of your wealth but you should be able to skirt by with arcane strike and a low level enchant on any weapon you choose, or AoMF, since youre stackin the crap out of your strength.
53k/62k
Another option would be to play a magus and take the spell blending arcana to get important wizard spells.
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Fighting Defensively gives a -4 to attack rolls, which stacks with the Combat Expertise penalty of -2. So seeing that you are at a BAB of 6, you now have a +0 to your attack rolls vs cr 10 creatures. Not a good idea.
Not certain what a Kylar is, but if this is considered for PFS, then the Armored Kilt is not possible. Not certain where you get the generic bonus, but if you are still going for the high Armor Class, you are facing encounters with just a d20 roll with at a lower health pool than other melee combatants.
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Fighting Defensively gives a -4 to attack rolls, which stacks with the Combat Expertise penalty of -2. So seeing that you are at a BAB of 6, you now have a +0 to your attack rolls vs cr 10 creatures. Not a good idea.
i did factor that in to the final character concept, i just forgot to add it. the bab of this character is irrelivent seeing as thought he should have close to a 40 strength by level 10. with a +2 weapon and a 40 strength he would have a +17 to hit, which isnt anything to scoff at.
Curious, what means are you using to get the close to 40 strength at level 10?
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57kg is on gear, if going for the belt, that is another 32kg. If you are running scenarios for max gold, at the star of Level 10, you would have about 77500 gold, much more than what you can grab, and this does not include the Earthbreaker yet.
Now, let us put gold aside.
20 - Base
2 - Level Up
6 - Belt
4 - Dragon Disciple
6 - Monstrous Physique III
4 - Rage
So it is possible to get 42.
Your best friend is an Armored Coat. If you need to cast a spell, take a move action to remove it, cast your spell and then on your next turn, spend another move action to put it back on.
Of course, there is the problem with action economy which is not as simple as you stated depending on where this armored coat "goes" when you take it off (plus not even considering a whole round of not wearing it between your turns to make it viable, which seems like a bad plan to me).
Remove it (move action) and drop it (free action). Next turn, pick it up (move action), put it back on, (move action). Not that good a plan.Or if you prefer: Remove it (move action), stow it (move action). Next turn, retrieve it from where it is stowed (move action), put it on (move action). An even worse option.
Manipulate an Item: Moving or manipulating an item is usually a move action. This includes retrieving or putting away a stored item, picking up an item, moving a heavy object, and opening a door. Examples of this kind of action, along with whether they incur an attack of opportunity, are given in Table: Actions in Combat.
Another option would be to play a magus and take the spell blending arcana to get important wizard spells.
That is an option under consideration.
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Curious, what means are you using to get the close to 40 strength at level 10?
some weird build like 1/barbarian/4DD/5 sorcerer
i dont know how he is building his character, but i would go with barbarian dip and sorcerer to DD and by tenth level he could have a ...18 base +2 racial +4 enh (magic item) +4 generic(from DD) +2 inherent(from orc bloodline +4 sorcerer levels from the robe)+ 4 moral (from rage) + 4 size (monsterous physique 2) + 2 levels = 40 for about 10 rounds a day with a 6 con.
now i wouldnt play this character but you could get a 40 strength if you wanted it enough.
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For some more detail that I left out of the initial post. I was trying to build a mostly martial gish and not use up any of my precious few feats with the 2 arcane armor feats.
my 3 favorite gish classes to play are:
1. Eldritch knight archer
trapper ranger 1/wizard 5(teleportation school)/Arcane archer 4/Eldritch Knight 10
2. Dragon Disciple paladin
paladin 4/sorcerer 5/DD 10/oracle 1 (lore)
3. magus hexcrafter
monk (MoMs/qinggong) 4/hexcrafter 16
after that i havent found many multi class gishes that are worth the effort.
Monstrous Physique III is a 5th level personal spell. A sorcerer would need to be a 10th level caster to cast it upon himself. He would need to be a 4th level dragon disciple to get +4 from natural armor in the prestige class. 4th level DD has three caster levels which adds up to 9 when coupled with 6 sorcerer levels, so he wouldn't get the spell, not to mention this would discount getting rage also.
barbarian 1
sorcerer 5
Dragon Disciple 4 (caster level 8, 3rd level spells)
20 base
2 level up
6 belt
4 dragon disciple
4 rage, can a character cast sorcerer spells while raging? (rage spell is +2)
4 monstrous physique II (4th level spell)
40
That is some stacking.
So, drop out one level of sorcerer (replacing monstrous physique II with monstrous physique I and losing two points of strength) then add one level of alchemist to gain a +4 strength from a mutagen gives a 42. :D Later, add another level of sorcerer to get MP II and bump up that strength two more. Add 6 more levels of dragon disciple and one can both get monstrous physique III and transformation (or drop down to one barbarian level, losing uncanny dodge and the rage power class ability) and add two more for level ups and you can have a 48 strength plus a full base attack bonus.
The above would be crazy with the dragon style feats...