I hardly think Paragon Surge abuse is going to break ANY class.
Keep in mind there's a minimum one round delay before you get what you want.
It also doesn't stack. The second Paragon Surge will overwrite and wipe the first one.
One spell with a two round delay isn't going to overpower anything. The best use I can see of it is in crafting, where you can always have the appropriate spell on hand. Note that you can't cross-school make scrolls, because divine casters can't make arcane scrolls.
Also, the DM is perfectly within his rights to rule that the first spell you grab when you pick Improved Eldritch Heritage is the one you ALWAYS get when you Paragon Surge and pick that feat, in effect you are setting the extra spell you get...which is how I'd rule it, of course, just to stop any shenanigans.
==Aelryinth
Well... the minimum is realistically a swift action, though I suppose if you were willing to Contingency it you get it as a free action (nitpick). The DM really *isn't* within his rights to say that unless he proposed that beforehand or talked to the player and they agreed, because that is not how selecting feats works. Rule 0 may be thing, but Rule -1 always wins.
Well... the minimum is realistically a swift action, though I suppose if you were willing to Contingency it you get it as a free action (nitpick). The DM really *isn't* within his rights to say that unless he proposed that beforehand or talked to the player and they agreed, because that is not how selecting feats works. Rule 0 may be thing, but Rule -1 always wins.I hardly think Paragon Surge abuse is going to break ANY class.
Keep in mind there's a minimum one round delay before you get what you want.
It also doesn't stack. The second Paragon Surge will overwrite and wipe the first one.
One spell with a two round delay isn't going to overpower anything. The best use I can see of it is in crafting, where you can always have the appropriate spell on hand. Note that you can't cross-school make scrolls, because divine casters can't make arcane scrolls.
Also, the DM is perfectly within his rights to rule that the first spell you grab when you pick Improved Eldritch Heritage is the one you ALWAYS get when you Paragon Surge and pick that feat, in effect you are setting the extra spell you get...which is how I'd rule it, of course, just to stop any shenanigans.
==Aelryinth
It also works stupid well with a Lesser Quicken Rod.
It's not a thing, because it doesn't work not even once.It does if the GM says it does.
Fair enough.
The DM really *isn't* within his rights to say that...Sure he is. And you're well within your rights to not like it.
But then he isn't the DM anymore and his rights have expired. Rule -1 always *always* wins.
Edit: And what Vivianne Laflamme said. +1
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The DM really *isn't* within his rights to say that...Sure he is. And you're well within your rights to not like it.
The DM's also well within their rights to say that the oracle can use paragon surge to cast wish for free. Let's bring that up when talking about what the rules say!
also known as: If the PC is trying to abuse the system and is willing to rage-quit the Game over it, the DM should let him.
==Aelryinth
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But then he isn't the DM anymore and his rights have expired.The PC can do nothing without a GM to moderate the game.
Unless they want to leave and make their own game.
EDIT: Ninja'd left and right today.
Wow. That Efreeti Genie really can't do a whole lot vs Planar Binding, Magic Circle and Dimensional Anchor combo. Huh.
Our group likes playing by the rules. Both PCs and GMs treat it as a matter of gamer pride.
Wow. That Efreeti Genie really can't do a whole lot vs Planar Binding, Magic Circle and Dimensional Anchor combo. Huh.
They can just pervert the wish. The GM would have to allow a Meta-game wording contract for the genie to be unable to pervert the wish.
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How does a Player Character make their own game?
And what does this have to do with high level rules interactions?
Nothing, we've gone off the rails like mad.
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Wow. That Efreeti Genie really can't do a whole lot vs Planar Binding, Magic Circle and Dimensional Anchor combo. Huh.They can just pervert the wish. The GM would have to allow a Meta-game wording contract for the genie to be unable to pervert the wish.
Actually wishes to increase ability scores don't get perverted. Its Wishes that go beyond the power of Wish that get perverted. Plus a Charisma check to name the service to be rendered can be worded sorta like this.
"When I have you cast my desired Wish, you must take MY best interests at heart. Further, I'm going to set up a telepathic link so that you know my intentions exactly."
Planar Binding compels the target creature into obeying.
Actually wishes to increase ability scores don't get perverted. Its Wishes that go beyond the power of Wish that get perverted.Wow. That Efreeti Genie really can't do a whole lot vs Planar Binding, Magic Circle and Dimensional Anchor combo. Huh.They can just pervert the wish. The GM would have to allow a Meta-game wording contract for the genie to be unable to pervert the wish.
Actually it's up to genie what you mean by your wish. It's well within his prerogative to try and give you something beyond the set description. Provided you don't allow contracts with meta wording like "give me a +1 inherit bonus to my ability score"
"When I have you cast my desired Wish, you must take MY best interests at heart. Further, I'm going to set up a telepathic link so that you know my intentions exactly."
Planar Binding compels the target creature into obeying.
You are assuming the genie is the one who perverts the wish and not the spell effect.
The genie can easily assume that something beyond the listed effect is "in your best interest"
You also can't mind beam over "I want an inherent bonus to my ability score!" because that is still meta-gaming.
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You are assuming the genie is the one who perverts the wish and not the spell effect."When I have you cast my desired Wish, you must take MY best interests at heart. Further, I'm going to set up a telepathic link so that you know my intentions exactly."
Planar Binding compels the target creature into obeying.
Gah. The Wish itself cannot pervert unless it's being used beyond it's capacity. And it could work even then! Since y'know there IS a chance it just works out okay heh.
How about...
"I wish my strength was increased like how this book does it. (Holds up Tome of Blank +1)"
Planar Binding compels the target creature into obeying.
Does it?
Gah. The Wish itself cannot pervert unless it's being used beyond it's capacity. And it could work even then!You are assuming the genie is the one who perverts the wish and not the spell effect."When I have you cast my desired Wish, you must take MY best interests at heart. Further, I'm going to set up a telepathic link so that you know my intentions exactly."
Planar Binding compels the target creature into obeying.
Go ahead and phrase a wish that can't be construed as going beyond it's capacity AND is free from meta-game language
I have never used an inherent bonus on a character and don't believe I ever would.Are you sure about that? It seems a bit extreme. Characters naturally get a +1 inherent bonus to one score at every four levels, you know. On top of which, the Pit-Touched bloodline allows an inherent bonus starting at level 9.Inherent bonuses are gained only from magic tomes and wish spells.
The stat increases PC's get every 4 levels are untyped.
==Aelryinth
You are correct on the every four levels increase. Ninja'd me on it.
But the Pit Touched bloodline he linked is an inherent bonus - just read it. Others have already noted that there are other methods of gaining inherent bonuses. That said, TriOmegaZero might never use sorcerers with those bloodlines or other methods...
Planar Binding compels the target creature into obeying.Does it?
It does not. You convenience the creature to make you a promise. That it can pervert the wording of.
It does not. You convenience the creature to make you a promise. That it can pervert the wording of.Planar Binding compels the target creature into obeying.Does it?
You can attempt to compel the creature to perform a service by describing the service and perhaps offering some sort of reward.
Compel is a pretty strong word.
Go ahead and phrase a wish that can't be construed as going beyond it's capacity AND is free from meta-game languageGah. The Wish itself cannot pervert unless it's being used beyond it's capacity. And it could work even then!You are assuming the genie is the one who perverts the wish and not the spell effect."When I have you cast my desired Wish, you must take MY best interests at heart. Further, I'm going to set up a telepathic link so that you know my intentions exactly."
Planar Binding compels the target creature into obeying.
I'm curious why meta-game language is frowned upon?
(I'm not arguing - I'm curious.)Planar Binding compels the target creature into obeying.Does it?
Planar Binding so we all know what we're talking about.
EDIT: disclosure - I haven't read it just now, I barely had time to link it, but I figure if we're going to discuss something, we might as well have the text handy to discuss it. :)
It does not. You convenience the creature to make you a promise. That it can pervert the wording of.Planar Binding compels the target creature into obeying.Does it?You can attempt to compel the creature to perform a service by describing the service and perhaps offering some sort of reward.Compel is a pretty strong word.
I find my promises compelling. Do you not?
Times like this I wish we had like a Chatroom system that had a posted topic or something.
I find my promises compelling. Do you not?It does not. You convenience the creature to make you a promise. That it can pervert the wording of.Planar Binding compels the target creature into obeying.Does it?You can attempt to compel the creature to perform a service by describing the service and perhaps offering some sort of reward.Compel is a pretty strong word.
com·pel
kəmˈpel/
verb
verb: compel; 3rd person present: compels; past tense: compelled; past participle: compelled; gerund or present participle: compelling1.
force or oblige (someone) to do something.
Compel is a pretty strong word.What's the penalty for non-compliance?
Seeing as how you have to beat down their charisma with yours, they don't get to non-comply.
You can attempt to compel the creature to perform a service by describing the service and perhaps offering some sort of reward.Compel is a pretty strong word.
Unless you're dealing with Pazuzu.
I'm curious why meta-game language is frowned upon?
(I'm not arguing - I'm curious.)
Well it's a roleplaying game. If you are using meta-mechanics language you're not really roleplaying IMO. Unless it's some sort of Order of the Stick world where everyone objectively talks about mechanics, but most APs tend to not be written that way.
Seeing as how you have to beat down their charisma with yours, they don't get to non-comply.The charisma check is to extract a promise. What forces them to uphold that promise?
"You can attempt to compel the creature to perform a service by describing the service and perhaps offering some sort of reward."
You are compelling them to perform the service. Not compelling them to promise to serve you.
Also if they can just walk away, there isn't much point to the spell eh?
Does this thread need to dissolve into another clarification on the ruling on Planar Binding again? We're dealing with high level play being mechanically sound or broken. The exact wording of this spell should be enforced by GM reading more than anything else. And only because it brings in a new NPC/character.
Also if they can just walk away, there isn't much point to the spell eh?Precisely my question.
This is why I don't use these methods. They are either stupidly powerful or stupidly useless.
I find it an entirely unsatisfying affair.
*Nods* I prefer Planar Ally. Then whomever I call is atleast amicable to a degree.
Honestly a 12th level Party can kill an Efreeti Genie in 1 round pretty easily so I suppose Death is a pretty good motivator.
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Go ahead and phrase a wish that can't be construed as going beyond it's capacity AND is free from meta-game languageGah. The Wish itself cannot pervert unless it's being used beyond it's capacity. And it could work even then!You are assuming the genie is the one who perverts the wish and not the spell effect."When I have you cast my desired Wish, you must take MY best interests at heart. Further, I'm going to set up a telepathic link so that you know my intentions exactly."
Planar Binding compels the target creature into obeying.
For at least boosting stats, I can think of a way: Find a Bestiary Creature that has no class levels and has the stat that you wish to boost that is one higher than yours (or two or three or how many ever wishes you have available to you at that moment). Make sure that it's not a creature that is commonly modified with templates, and then say something to the effect of "I want to be as strong as an average Hill Giant, and no stronger."
For at least boosting stats, I can think of a way: Find a Bestiary Creature that has no class levels and has the stat that you wish to boost that is one higher than yours (or two or three or how many ever wishes you have available to you at that moment). Make sure that it's not a creature that is commonly modified with templates, and then say something to the effect of "I want to be as strong as an average Hill Giant, and no stronger."Go ahead and phrase a wish that can't be construed as going beyond it's capacity AND is free from meta-game languageGah. The Wish itself cannot pervert unless it's being used beyond it's capacity. And it could work even then!You are assuming the genie is the one who perverts the wish and not the spell effect."When I have you cast my desired Wish, you must take MY best interests at heart. Further, I'm going to set up a telepathic link so that you know my intentions exactly."
Planar Binding compels the target creature into obeying.
Genie attempts to permanently turn you into a Hill Giant via wish. It works and you are teleported to where hill giants live with no memory of your past life or any benefits from experiences in that past life.
Or genie temporarily turns you into a Hill giant via wish via Giant form since you did not specify the length you wished to be this strong.
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The wish spell doesn't have to pervert the wish. Since it's the genie casting it, not you, it can be perverted as much as the genie wants. As long as it fulfills the letter, and perhaps a sliver of spirit, of its agreement.
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How does a Player Character make their own game?
By rolling a high enough "Craft: Tabletop Game", maybe with a side of "Knowledge: System Mastery" and "Profession: DM!". Other skills may come in handy, notably social skills.
The wish spell doesn't have to pervert the wish. Since it's the genie casting it, not you, it can be perverted as much as the genie wants. As long as it fulfills the letter, and perhaps a sliver of spirit, of its agreement.
Oh the genie may use a listed effect, but they don't have to and you can't find a non-meta language contract that forces them too.
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And Markthus wins the "I really hate that trope." award for GMs I would really not like to play under.
I have a hard enough time convincing every player I have that when I give them a wish I'm not going to twist it on them "just because" as it is.
To be clear, I'm glad you have fun with that style, and I recognize it as a defense mechanism against abusive players. That's fair and does not make you a bad GM or bad player.
I'd just hate playing under it. Personal tastes/personality clash and all that.
It's really strange to me that you would purposefully go way, way beyond the power of a wish just to pervert it. Or that you don't fulfill the wish at all, since what's being asked is clearly within the paremeters of the wish, and Giant Form doesn't grant you the average strength of a Hill Giant.
One thing to keep in mind: there are, in fact, in-game methods of acquiring "metagame" knowledge - the preponderance of Detect spells.
Detect Thoughts, for example, gives you the intelligence score of a character.
EDIT: ("While otherwise remaining as I am, I Wish my Intelligence was inherently increased so that I accurately register as X to Detect Thoughts spells.")
The various detect alignments, the detect (creature type), and the detect the faithful are all meta-game information.
Sleep or Daze type effects can be used to determine relative hit dice (at least in increments of four or ten), while the various power words (and death watch) can determine hit points (though power word [death] instantly changes their value).
Strength can be measured exactly by carrying capacity.
("While otherwise remaining as I am, I Wish my Strength was inherently increased to allow me to easily lift X amount, lift Y amount fairly well, lift Z amount off the ground, and push or drag N amount.")
There are several things that can objectively measure caster level (even if you ignore the range and duration of spells).
All that is just off the top of my head (without really hunting through things).
It is absolutely necessary that PCs (and monsters) know that there are different kinds of bonuses, what those bonuses are and whether or not they stack because, otherwise, we'd have (off the top of my head) dragons wasting their horde money on Amulets of natural armor fully believing that it was helpful, or other similarly nonsensical set-ups.
That said, I do get the desire to avoid meta-game stuff - it can break immersion. But when we're dealing with game rules, it is personally bothersome that only in certain circumstances are metagame concepts consistently "banned" as being "out of character" (though this is certainly not true for all people who reject meta-game terms - it just seems to commonly crop up at very specific times).
Personally, I hate the fact that every player I've ever had was always terrified that I'd pervert their wish - even when they've never been in a game where wishes are abused, they always have heard "the stories"; and I'd be incredibly frustrated with a GM that pulled the shenanigans on me, but that's just a different play style - what, to me, seems needlessly adversarial and frustrating is, to others, all in good fun or even necessary to curb power-gaming. Ah, well. To each their own, and I suppose this is off topic. :)
I can go point by point and pervert each of those request, but as you have said you don't like that idea and would rather play at tables where certain arcane casters merely choose not to break the game instead of being restricted through an application of the rules.
EDIT: There is a clear difference between an ally/GM giving a reward wish and the PCs trying to suck one from a hostile LE genie. Accepting a wish is a sign of trust just as much as giving one. If your PCs don't trust the source of the wish that is their prerogative.
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aceDiamond: First, thanks for the compliment earlier.
As for the reason for this post:
Does this thread need to dissolve into another clarification on the ruling on Planar Binding again? We're dealing with high level play being mechanically sound or broken. The exact wording of this spell should be enforced by GM reading more than anything else. And only because it brings in a new NPC/character.
I think people bring this spell up because this is an area where play styles can change the utility of the spell dramatically. If you assume that players can serially bind creatures, compel them into service, then release them when the service is over with few if any repercussions, the spell is indeed quite powerful. If the repercussions are potentially much riskier, you'll probably use it as a last resort, if you use it at all.
How it applies to the higher level math: at the higher levels, you can get up to a +3 inherent bonus* to an ability at almost no cost by binding an Efreeti and forcing it to use all three wishes consecutively. If you are building for maximum optimization and the repercussions would be assumed to be easily manageable (if there are any at all), there is no reason, really, not to do it.
*As I read RAW/RAI for using wish to increase an ability score, the wishes must be cast consecutively, and an Efreeti only has 3 wishes a day, so +3 is the best you can do, and if you assume a surviving Efreeti is a potential threat, the best you can do is a +2, since you would have to kill it before it cast the third wish.
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A ring of wishes is one thing. When another entity, a hostile, imprisoned entity that hates being imprisoned, is casting your wish, special terms and conditions may apply when claiming your prize.
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As a general rule I personally dont make a habit of perverting wishes.
By not letting the players take agency of their own actions you're removing the part of the game that makes this game better than other games... The players have to spend upside of 100,000 gold to get +4 or +5 on an attribute... The mindset that they should have to pay a price for power? They're paying it.... If the only wishes your characters can get away with are wishes that wishing didn't exist because every wish is a punishment for being foolish enough to expect that it wouldn't be, then there's a problem... Spitting on their cheeseburger isn't a sign of great gaming. Have a little dignity for the craft.
On the other hand it's the golden rule
How would you want to be treated... Sure you can hide behind the notion of 'I don't mind perverting wishes because I'd never make them' but thats not the question... The question is if you had something you wanted to wish for and you did, would you want your gm to screw it up on you. Sometimes the golden rule isnt good enough. For that we have:
Tthe platinum rule: Treat others the way they want to be treated.
If the results you choose for how the wish goes down would cause them to wish they'd never made the wish in the first place then the characters should know the interaction is more trouble than its worth before they even try. This isnt a gm vs players game.
The problem with this mindset is that its a concept failure... The gm is supposed to be a referee. He's got complete power for how the game goes down... But being a referee means more than that. It means you don't get to *choose* to win. Its not an option for you.
You never hear a report on the news saying 'man there's a lotta chatter tonight after last nights game... It was quite a doozy. Broncos were the clear favorite but nobody would argue the raiders played a good game... could have gone either way.. but the referee's taking home the superbowl ring this year was an upset that *nobody* predicted.... Great game last night by the referees... They really showed the other teams the way to play the game..."
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And Markthus wins the "I really hate that trope." award for GMs I would really not like to play under.
I have a hard enough time convincing every player I have that when I give them a wish I'm not going to twist it on them "just because" as it is.
To be clear, I'm glad you have fun with that style, and I recognize it as a defense mechanism against abusive players. That's fair and does not make you a bad GM or bad player.
I'd just hate playing under it. Personal tastes/personality clash and all that.
We still really need to hang out sometime.