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With monsters are actually supposed to use their wealth? If so then they become much stronger. I published adventures I never see monster use wealth.No of course not...the pit fiend's weapon proficiencies and +28 Use Magic device are just for show. It's also naked, and carrying the 134,000 gp worth of treasure around in a ziplock back stuffed in its pooper. :P
EDIT: In case it's not clear that I'm joking sarcastically, yes, monsters use their wealth. See monsters like the Ghaele who carries around a +4 weapon. Also see Full Body Cavity Search on the Demon for more on this topic.
Don't be foolish, Ashiel!
We all know demons' wealth is always tied to Wall Street!
...
Huh... That would explain a lot, actually...
Don't suppose you could give details? Didn't know pathfinder uses roles either.
Every RPG has roles.
There's a reason characters belong to "classes."
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Players will basically get wrecked as they progress if they put dump stats in any save stat, and don't spend at least 1 feat to shore up said save/s. As a DM I encourage players to build robust multi-talented Characters, not one-trick ponies. In my games it did not take the party long to realize that leaving themselves with a low bad save at level 10 can spell disaster for their team. In that vein things like rocket and SoD tag sorta fade.
You can carry maybe one-trick pony per party, if the other characters can provide covering fire.
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There's a reason characters belong to "classes."
I'm starting to feel a surge of communism in the distance due to this post...
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There's a reason characters belong to "classes."I'm starting to feel a surge of communism in the distance due to this post...
*Python voice* There you go, bringing class into it, again!
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Is it just my group that makes jokes about "fantasy communism" when it comes to distributing magic items and the belongings of dead adventurers?
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Okay, so monsters are supposed to use their treasure. This going to make them much much stronger. I am actually okay with that.
Things like balor or pit fiend can use their wealth to increase the defenses to absurd levels but that might be fun.
I don't think it's so much, "Supposed to" as "The GM has every right to do so, and shouldn't even think twice about it, if it helps their game."
Pathfinder is flexible enough that it can be tailored to many different play-styles really easily. The vanilla things in the Bestiaries are just that: vanilla. They exist so you have a baseline of "here's something you can use if you have poorly-/un-optimized players and/or are in a hurry."
In much the same way every goblin isn't a level 1 warrior, every Pit Fiends isn't the vanilla stats you see. They're built to be customizable chassis on which you can hang your game.
Also, Ashiel's level 1 orcs and goblins are terrifying. So frightening, that I ran a (non-Golarion) goblin-themed game after finding out about it just so I could master my fear of them. :)
Just when I thought my cowardice was overcome... :)
Trait and feat bonuses can stack up to +4 if you pick the right +2 traits.
Something as simple as full plate can make a balor pretty much untouchable to characters of the appropriate level. I do believe that equipping monsters will effect CR, and that (1) you are expected to equip them and (2) that the listed CR is a base guideline that would be altered with gear.
Something as simple as full plate can make a balor pretty much untouchable to characters of the appropriate level. I do believe that equipping monsters will effect CR, and that (1) you are expected to equip them and (2) that the listed CR is a base guideline that would be altered with gear.
I generally separate a monster's mechanical equipment from their treasure. If you want to have an enemy give the party +1 Mithral Fullplate, but that would mess with the stats, to the point that they'd be difficult for the PCs to hit, I use the stats as written (or maybe boost the AC by one or two, if I'm borderline), but say they were wearing the armor. Or if I need an Orcish raiding party that I've leveled up to CR 10 or so, the'd logically have a lot of magic items to make their stats CR appropriate, but if I don't want the PCs to have that much in terms of magic items, I just say there were only a couple items of any value amongst them.
Level 1 orc fighter with an earth breaker, power attack and furious focus; have a nice day. Still significantly less funny than a goblin alchemist, however.
I can get behind this. If any class was suited to goblins, it would have to be Alchemists.
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Level 1 orc fighter with an earth breaker, power attack and furious focus; have a nice day. Still significantly less funny than a goblin alchemist, however.I can get behind this. If any class was suited to goblins, it would have to be Alchemists.
The Gnome/Goblin Alchemy War would be legendary.
Something as simple as full plate can make a balor pretty much untouchable to characters of the appropriate level. I do believe that equipping monsters will effect CR, and that (1) you are expected to equip them and (2) that the listed CR is a base guideline that would be altered with gear.I generally separate a monster's mechanical equipment from their treasure. If you want to have an enemy give the party +1 Mithral Fullplate, but that would mess with the stats, to the point that they'd be difficult for the PCs to hit, I use the stats as written (or maybe boost the AC by one or two, if I'm borderline), but say they were wearing the armor. Or if I need an Orcish raiding party that I've leveled up to CR 10 or so, the'd logically have a lot of magic items to make their stats CR appropriate, but if I don't want the PCs to have that much in terms of magic items, I just say there were only a couple items of any value amongst them.
There's nothing wrong with this Diablo-esque style of treasure. I don't think it is the assumed way to play Pathfinder, but I don't have an issue with it.
That said, a balor with full plate on has AC 39. Hardly 'untouchable' to characters of the appropriate level.
[size=120]Pit Fiend (CR 20)[/size]
XP 307,200
LE Large outsider (devil, evil, extraplanar, lawful)
Init +13; Senses see in darkness; Perception +33
Aura fear (20 ft., DC 23)
Languages Celestial, Common, Draconic, Infernal; telepathy 100 ft.
_____________________________________________________________
AC 47, touch 22, flat-footed 38, combat 5
(+5 armor, +4 deflection, +9 Dex, +20 natural, –1 size)
hp 350 (20d10 + 240); regen 5 (good weapons, good spells); DR 15/good and silver
Immune fire, poison
Resist acid 20, cold 20; SR 31
Fort +28, Ref +25, Will +22; Improved Iron Will
_____________________________________________________________
Speed 40 ft., fly 60 ft. (average); Fly +30
Melee 2 claws +35 (2d8 + 16) and
bite +35 (4d6 + 16 plus poison and disease) and
2 wings +33 (2d6 + 9) and
tail slap +33 (2d8 + 9 plus grab)
Space 10 ft.; Reach 10 ft.
Base Atk +20; Combat +34 (+38 grapple)
Attack Options great cleave, improved vital strike, power attack (-6, +12)
Special Attacks constrict (2d8 + 19), devil shaping
_____________________________________________________________
Spell-Like Abilities (Caster level 18th, Concentration +26)
At will – blasphemy (DC 25), create undead, fireball (DC 21), greater dispel magic, greater teleport, greater scrying (DC 25), invisibility, magic circle against good, mass hold monster (DC 27), persistent image (DC 23), power word stun, scorching ray, symbol (any, DC 26), trap the soul (DC 26), unholy aura (DC 26), wall of fire
1/day – meteor swarm, summon (level 9, any 1 CR 19 or lower devil, 100%), unhallow
1/year – wish
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Abilities Str 37, Dex 29, Con 35, Int 26, Wis 30, Cha 26
Feats Cleave, Great Cleave, Improved Initiative, Improved Iron Will, Improved Vital Strike, Iron Will, Multiattack, Power Attack, Quicken Spell-Like Ability, Vital Strike
Skills Appraise +17, Bluff +31, Diplomacy +31, Disguise +27, Fly +30, Intimidate +31, Knowledge (arcana) +28, Knowledge (planes) +31, Knowledge (religion) +31, Perception +33, Sense Motive +33, Spellcraft +31, Stealth +28, Survival +22, Use Magic Device +28
Treasure bracers of armor +5, amulet of mighty fists +3, instant fortress, black diamond (5,000 gp)
_____________________________________________________________
Devil Shaping (Su) Three times per day, a pit fiend can spend a minute to transform nearby lemures into other lesser devils. A pit fiend can transform one lemure for every Hit Die the pit fiend possesses. It can then reshape these lemures into a number of Hit Dice's worth of lesser devils equal to the number of lemures affected. For example, a typical 20 Hit Dice pit fiend could transform 20 lemures into two bone devils (10 HD each), or three bearded devils (6 HD each, leaving two lemures unchanged), or any other combination of lesser devils. Lemures to be reshaped must be within 50 feet of the pit fiend, becoming stationary and unable to move once the shaping begins. After a minute passes, the lemures reform into the shape of a new lesser devil ready to follow the orders of the pit fiend. Although pit fiends can, technically, elevate a mass of 20 lemures into a new pit fiend, most are hesitant to do so since they have no special control over a devil created in this manner.
Disease (Su) Devil Chills: Bite—injury; save Fort DC 32; onset immediate; frequency 1/day; effect 1d4 Str damage; cure 3 consecutive saves.
Poison (Ex) Bite—injury; save Fort DC 32; frequency 1/round for 10 rounds; effect 1d6 Con damage; cure 3 consecutive saves.
This is what I use for a 'generic' pit fiend stat block, if one just pops up, or was gated in. It doesn't even have all of its treasure aimed at combat, the iron fortress is a cool little item for a boss monster to sport. If the pit fiend was an actual NPC, which almost surely is the case, I would customize treasure a bit better.
It probably has over its treasure budget since I price the amulet of mighty fists significantly less than the official price, but the concept holds either way. Reduce the bonus if you think it is too much.
It's not that monsters are loaded out. It's just of a monster's hoard, which is still smaller than an NPC's gear budget, there may be some items that are usable by the monster. If you want to equip the monster with anything in particular, it comes out of the treasure budget. As the books note, equipment is mostly accounted for by the increased monetary reward when you defeat the opponent, within reasonable limits; an NPC with PC-level gear and favorable ability scores is worth +1 CR or so, usually.
Just thought of something. Assume you allow a 11th level wizard to cast Planar Binding to get wishes, and it means +5 bonuses to every stat in the party. That's 120 (one hundred & twenty!) wishes. Market value 3 Million gold. 100 times the suggested WBL.
Ipso facto- unlimited wishes are not RAI.
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Ipso facto- unlimited wishes are not RAI.
Probably not. They are also not difficult to get, though. It doesn't even require bending rules or anything.
The real question is... Why aren't Efreeti doing the "1 wish for me, 2 for you" deal more often? Hell, any Efreeti with half a functional brain would seek a non genie to offer the deal.
How do you stop that with in-game logic instead of arbitrary GM decision and bending of rules to make it impossible?
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Something as simple as full plate can make a balor pretty much untouchable to characters of the appropriate level. I do believe that equipping monsters will effect CR, and that (1) you are expected to equip them and (2) that the listed CR is a base guideline that would be altered with gear.
The balor would need to burn 3 feats to wear it effectively. Balors / pit fiends don't have armor proficiencies by default. So maybe something like masterwork studded leather (made from the flesh of fiendish cows from Diablo II) or something.
That said, I think "untouchable" might be a bit of a stretch. The Pit Fiend has one of the highest base-ACs in the game. 38, and it gets a free +4 deflection on top of it because of unholy aura. Now let's see just how high we can get a pit fiend's AC if we're spending his treasure very wisely for maximum benefit.
First off, a lot of the pit fiend's AC actually comes from it's +9 Dexterity. In general, that means that heavy armor is out of the equation, and in truth most medium armors are too. In fact, there's literally no armor that will provide a profitable AC increase for a pit fiend because as armor bonus goes up, Dex mod comes down. So this is really only an issue to a pit fiend when deciding whether his touch-AC or flat-footed AC is a bigger issue (I'd spec touch AC more). This means bracers of armor or a wand of mage armor (make use of that +28 UMD). Since dispelling and mage's disjunction are a big thing at this level, I'm going with bracers.
+8 armor (+8 bracers) = 64,000 gp
+4 natural enhancement (amulet of natural armor) = 32,000 gp
+6 shield (+5 large-sized buckler) = 25,000 gp
+1 insight (ioun stone) = 5,000 gp
8,000 gp remaining
Total AC = 61 / touch 19 / flat 52
A 20th level Fighter's attack
+20 BAB
+10 Strength (lowballing for a fighter or barbarian)
+5 weapon (can be greater magic weapon buffed)
+2 from evil-outsider bane
+8 class features / feat
+4 greater heroism
+1 haste
= Hits on a 10+.
Rangers or Paladins should hit on an 8+ (instant enemy / smite evil). Actually, lower than that potentially, since the Paladin can get another +3 luck bonus from divine favor and his crits auto-confirm due to bless weapon, and rangers can declare the pit fiend their quarry for another +4 insight bonus to hit and auto-confirming critical hits, bringing them to 5+ and 4+ respectively.
That's before at situational modifiers such as flanking, or debuffing occurs. For example, merely entangling the pit fiend results in being able to hit it on a 3+ and 2+. Blinding the Balor makes it a punching bag (because that phat +9 Dex hits the dirt). Fatigued drops his AC by -1, and exhausted by -3. Flanking provides a +2 to hit.
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Now I personally would decorate the pit fiend in a much more rounded assortment of gear, because like with PCs, I think one-trick ponies are not very smart.
I'd gear said pit fiend in...
+5 bracers of armor (25,000 gp)
+5 buckler (25,000 gp)
+3 amulet of natural armor (18,000 gp)
+5 cloak of resistance (25,000 gp)
+4 circlet of charisma (16,000 gp)
25,000 gp worth of miscellaneous things (bag of holding or haversack containing wands, scrolls, soul gems, art objects, jewelry, etc).
That would bring them to AC 55, buff saves a bit, add +2 to the DC of their spells, and probably allot some nice trinkets to spice up the encounter with.
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Ipso facto- unlimited wishes are not RAI.Probably not. They are also not difficult to get, though. It doesn't even require bending rules or anything.
The real question is... Why aren't Efreeti doing the "1 wish for me, 2 for you" deal more often? Hell, any Efreeti with half a functional brain would seek a non genie to offer the deal.
How do you stop that with in-game logic instead of arbitrary GM decision and bending of rules to make it impossible?
Because they're strong enough to keep around a bunch of goblins for the purpose of "three wishes for me, a little less torture for you"?
That would bring them to AC 55, buff saves a bit, add +2 to the DC of their spells, and probably allot some nice trinkets to spice up the encounter with.
That AC invalidates a lot of classes.
My vote is to not have monsters equipped with treadmill items.
Just thought of something. Assume you allow a 11th level wizard to cast Planar Binding to get wishes, and it means +5 bonuses to every stat in the party. That's 120 (one hundred & twenty!) wishes. Market value 3 Million gold. 100 times the suggested WBL.
Ipso facto- unlimited wishes are not RAI.
And yet it was used for that exact purpose in a module published by Paizo.
a module published by Paizo.
Not all. The actions of 1-2 outsiders do not determine how all of them will behave.
That would bring them to AC 55, buff saves a bit, add +2 to the DC of their spells, and probably allot some nice trinkets to spice up the encounter with.That AC invalidates a lot of classes.
My vote is to not have monsters equipped with treadmill items.
How does it invalidate a lot of classes, exactly? Do you mean DRUIDS? Because they're 9th level casters. Same with wizards and sorcerers. AC is fairly meaningless to them.
Bards? Well bards can play hardball too. Hell, a bard can take a pit fiend apart unless the pit fiend can keep see invisibility active constantly (which it can't do on its own, it needs to use magic items with it's UMD check).
Exactly which classes is it that AC 55 invalidates?
a module published by Paizo.Not all. The actions of 1-2 outsiders do not determine how all of them will behave.
I didn't say that all of them would? I don't understand this response.
And Ashiel, I would guess the 'invalidate classes' comment would be a 'well now the inquisitor/magus/other 3/4 BAB class doesn't have a prayer of hitting it outside of a nat 20' essentially.
A Magus can easily hit that AC. As can an Inquisitor and most other 3/4ths BAB classes.
Now I personally would decorate the pit fiend in a much more rounded assortment of gear, because like with PCs, I think one-trick ponies are not very smart.
I'd gear said pit fiend in...
+5 bracers of armor (25,000 gp)
+5 buckler (25,000 gp)
+3 amulet of natural armor (18,000 gp)
+5 cloak of resistance (25,000 gp)
+4 circlet of charisma (16,000 gp)
25,000 gp worth of miscellaneous things (bag of holding or haversack containing wands, scrolls, soul gems, art objects, jewelry, etc).That would bring them to AC 55, buff saves a bit, add +2 to the DC of their spells, and probably allot some nice trinkets to spice up the encounter with.
Solid choices for a generic monster, though the idea of a pit fiend fighting with a buckler or wearing a cape doesn't really work that well for me. My tower was specifically to blow a large chunk of wealth on a non-combat item.
It also gives you some room to work with. The base pit fiend is statted with AC 38 with at will access to AC 42. Using fairly mundane items, you got it up to AC 52 (38 + 3 + 5 + 6 = 52) with at will access to 56.
If PCs are incapable of dealing with AC 56, but laugh at 38, the DM can set it somewhere in between to create an ideal level of challenge for them by lowering the totals from what you've provided.
That would bring them to AC 55, buff saves a bit, add +2 to the DC of their spells, and probably allot some nice trinkets to spice up the encounter with.That AC invalidates a lot of classes.
My vote is to not have monsters equipped with treadmill items.
How does it invalidate a lot of classes, exactly? Do you mean DRUIDS? Because they're 9th level casters. Same with wizards and sorcerers. AC is fairly meaningless to them.
Bards? Well bards can play hardball too. Hell, a bard can take a pit fiend apart unless the pit fiend can keep see invisibility active constantly (which it can't do on its own, it needs to use magic items with it's UMD check).
Exactly which classes is it that AC 55 invalidates?
Anything dependent on hitting which includes even fighters.
That AC is far beyond appropriate for any level of play.
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The Gnome/Goblin Alchemy War would be legendary.Level 1 orc fighter with an earth breaker, power attack and furious focus; have a nice day. Still significantly less funny than a goblin alchemist, however.I can get behind this. If any class was suited to goblins, it would have to be Alchemists.
It would! Unfortunately, goblin alchemists in the war would invent a mutagen that converted their bodies into magical nukes; more goblins die to self-induced fire and explosions than all other races combined as it is.
That would bring them to AC 55, buff saves a bit, add +2 to the DC of their spells, and probably allot some nice trinkets to spice up the encounter with.That AC invalidates a lot of classes.
My vote is to not have monsters equipped with treadmill items.
How does it invalidate a lot of classes, exactly? Do you mean DRUIDS? Because they're 9th level casters. Same with wizards and sorcerers. AC is fairly meaningless to them.
Bards? Well bards can play hardball too. Hell, a bard can take a pit fiend apart unless the pit fiend can keep see invisibility active constantly (which it can't do on its own, it needs to use magic items with it's UMD check).
Exactly which classes is it that AC 55 invalidates?
Anything dependent on hitting which includes even fighters.
That AC is far beyond appropriate for any level of play.
Oh, I'm sorry master, I didn't realize that we broke your laws.
I suppose you missed the part where I showed that fighters with lowballed Strength scores can hit them on an 8+ vs AC 61 without debuffing or getting tactical advantages. Did I just imagine that?
Oh wait, that would mean that Fighters would hit the AC 55 pit fiend on a 2+, and that the paladins and rangers have tons of excess to-hit bonuses. What are you talking about again?
Exactly which classes is it that AC 55 invalidates?
Anything dependent on hitting which includes even fighters.
That AC is far beyond appropriate for any level of play.
Jill Bob the Generic Fighter
base attack bonus +20weapon training +4
weapon focus + greater weapon focus +2
Strength, oh, let's just call it Strength 28 (+9)
longsword +5
--
Total: +40
The most vanilla fighter imaginable can hit that on a 15. I think we're okay. For my opening bid, I use my ring of spell storing to cast mirror image, then close and try to sunder that dingetty-dong buckler. Or maybe I'll use my UMD with a wand of disintegrate on the buckler instead.
Because they're strong enough to keep around a bunch of goblins for the purpose of "three wishes for me, a little less torture for you"?Ipso facto- unlimited wishes are not RAI.Probably not. They are also not difficult to get, though. It doesn't even require bending rules or anything.
The real question is... Why aren't Efreeti doing the "1 wish for me, 2 for you" deal more often? Hell, any Efreeti with half a functional brain would seek a non genie to offer the deal.
How do you stop that with in-game logic instead of arbitrary GM decision and bending of rules to make it impossible?
That's my point... Why isn't every efreeti using non-genies to get everything they want?
That "they are a prideful race" hypothesis someone else pointed out doesn't make sense. As you said, they could use slaves and get all 3 wishes for themselves.
That would bring them to AC 55, buff saves a bit, add +2 to the DC of their spells, and probably allot some nice trinkets to spice up the encounter with.That AC invalidates a lot of classes.
My vote is to not have monsters equipped with treadmill items.
How does it invalidate a lot of classes, exactly? Do you mean DRUIDS? Because they're 9th level casters. Same with wizards and sorcerers. AC is fairly meaningless to them.
Bards? Well bards can play hardball too. Hell, a bard can take a pit fiend apart unless the pit fiend can keep see invisibility active constantly (which it can't do on its own, it needs to use magic items with it's UMD check).
Exactly which classes is it that AC 55 invalidates?
Anything dependent on hitting which includes even fighters.
That AC is far beyond appropriate for any level of play.
What?
Any Full BAB class can easily hit that. Any solid 3/4ths BAB class can hit that with a bit of finangling. Any degree of debuffing can drop that sucker's AC down to downright laughable levels. Considering a Pit Fiend RAW should only be used as a reasonable challenge to a party of 17th level Adventurers and up thats not too crazy.
Fighter 17th
+17 BAB
+10 STR
+7 Weapon(Bane)
+2 WF and GWF
+2 Heroism(Common Buff at that level)
+1 Haste
+5 Weapon Training(Gloves of Dueling)
Total: +44
And I'm sure I'm missing something obvious. And the Fighter has probably the more boring solutions to the problem. Add flanking, a Bard's Inspire Courage, or any amount of actual party tactics and they'll down the beast even with higher AC.
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That's my point... Why isn't every efreeti using non-genies to get everything they want?That "they are a prideful race" hypothesis someone else pointed out doesn't make sense. As you said, they could use slaves and get all 3 wishes for them.
"Wish for freedom one more time, M_F_!"
Exactly which classes is it that AC 55 invalidates?
Anything dependent on hitting which includes even fighters.
That AC is far beyond appropriate for any level of play.
Jill Bob the Generic Fighter
base attack bonus +20
weapon training +4
weapon focus + greater weapon focus +2
Strength, oh, let's just call it Strength 28 (+9)
longsword +5
--
Total: +40The most vanilla fighter imaginable can hit that on a 15. I think we're okay. For my opening bid, I use my ring of spell storing to cast mirror image, then close and try to sunder that dingetty-dong buckler. Or maybe I'll use my UMD with a wand of disintegrate on the buckler instead.
15+ to hit for the fighters first attack is awful. That fighter is doing almost no damage.
That AC is far beyond appropriate for any level of play.
What?
Any Full BAB class can easily hit that. Any solid 3/4ths BAB class can hit that with a bit of finangling. Any degree of debuffing can drop that sucker's AC down to downright laughable levels. Considering a Pit Fiend RAW should only be used as a reasonable challenge to a party of 17th level Adventurers and up thats not too crazy.
Fighter 17th
+17 BAB
+10 STR
+7 Weapon(Bane)
+2 WF and GWF
+2 Heroism(Common Buff at that level)
+1 Haste
+5 Weapon Training(Gloves of Dueling)Total: +44
And I'm sure I'm missing something obvious. And the Fighter has probably the more boring solutions to the problem. Add flanking, a Bard's Inspire Courage, or any amount of actual party tactics and they'll down the beast even with higher AC.
So the fighter does crap for the fight...(since the AC we are talking about is 55) And that's assuming an optimized build with perfect item drops.
"Wish for freedom one more time, M_F_!"
That's my point... Why isn't every efreeti using non-genies to get everything they want?That "they are a prideful race" hypothesis someone else pointed out doesn't make sense. As you said, they could use slaves and get all 3 wishes for them.
Then he doesn't concede the wish and kills the slave as slowly and painfully as possible... Then he looks at the next slave and says "So... You wanna try being a smartass too?"
And yet, two Jill Bobs, without any help from friends, can probably take out the pit fiend in two rounds with minimum casualties.
Then he doesn't concede the wish and kills the slave as slowly and painfully as possible... Then he looks at the next slave and says "So... You wanna try being a smartass too?""Wish for freedom one more time, M_F_!"
That's my point... Why isn't every efreeti using non-genies to get everything they want?That "they are a prideful race" hypothesis someone else pointed out doesn't make sense. As you said, they could use slaves and get all 3 wishes for them.
"Anybody else wanna negotiate?"
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Considering a Pit Fiend RAW should only be used as a reasonable challenge to a party of 17th level Adventurers and up thats not too crazy.
Seriously. A Pit Fiend is a CR 20 encounter. It is worth 307,200 XP. To put that into perspective...
This is old news on the boards, but it's relevant.
High level combat is NOT like low level combat. It is a tactical game of dropping nukes and bio-weapons on your enemies while shielding yourself with your star-wars program and hazmat teams. A high level encounter where enemies are using their full resources is a terrifying ordeal. A 20th level party vs a Solar for example is akin to the freakin' Ragnarok on the scale of extreme terror that it would incite in normal humans, as on this scale you are literally hurling meteors at people, calling upon earth shattering storms, and cracking the land and sundering buildings, while the legions of heaven and hell descend or crawl up from their realms to join the battle.
For example...
CR 20 encounter = 307,200 XP
Succubus x 4 (CR 7) = 12,800 XP
Shadow Demon x 4 (CR 7) = 12,800 XP
Nabasu x 6 (CR 8) = 28,800 XP
Glabrezu x 2 (CR 13) = 51,200 XP
Marilith x 1 (CR 17) = 102,400 XP
Vrock x 15 (CR 9) = 96,000 XP
Dretch x 5 (CR 2) = 3,000 XP
This is a demon horde led by a Marilith, who commands their fiendish legions. The entire horde can greater teleport at will, and works together. Most of them can summon more demons as spell-like abilities. Here is a quick rundown of the types of things these demons might do.
Marilith uses telekinesis at range to hurl objects or even other demons at the party, or uses it to grapple an enemy magician. If she sees an opening, she will get in and attack an opponent with her tail and constrict them. Anyone who is constricted must make a DC 25 fortitude save or fall unconscious for 1d8 rounds. At this point she moves on to the next foe, as one of the succubi coup de grace the unconscious character with a caster level 12 vampiric touch, likely killing the victim and buffing the succubus to hell and back with temporary HP. Blade barrier controls the battlefield and makes moving around a pain for those without teleportation.
The Nebasu wander around spamming enervation at targets, especially those in heavy armor, inflicting 1d4 negative levels with each ray that hits, no save. There are 6 of them, so that's a potential for 6-24 negative levels. Every negative level inflicts a -1 penalty to all saving throws. When they are out of rays, they will spam telekinesis to hurl objects at the party, or force DC 19 will saves or be hurled about like a rag doll.
The shadow demons seep through the floor and attack anyone who is on land using their blind-fight feat to ignore the miss %, and since they have cover you can't make AoOs against them, and retaliating against them is something of a pain, since you can't ready a full-attack against them. Your best bet is to take to the air. Each shadow demon of course attempts to summon another shadow demon with a 50% success rate, so 4 demons becomes 6 more than likely. They too can also stand back and spam telekinesis.
The succubi screech about the battlefield charm-bombing enemies and taking pot-shots at downed foes with vampiric touch when they're down. Of course, they all attempt to summon Babau demons with a 50% chance, so that adds another 2 acid-coated demons into the mix as cannon fodder. They also will not hesitate to dominate animal companions, mounts, and similar creatures. They're not difficult to kill, but they will generally spread out and distract the party, and can turn ethereal at-will, allowing them very good tactics. If desired, they can fly around and drop nets on the party to entangle them, as they can comfortably carry plenty of them and still greater teleport around the field.
The vrocks all begin a dance of ruin, spreading out into groups of 4 vrocks for maximum effectiveness. Every 3rd round, each group unleashes a 20d6 blast of lightning in a 100 ft. radius, which all of the demons are immune to. So if you don't break up or crowd control the vrocks, you will be eating up to 4 instances of 20d6 electricity damage, which is an average of 280 damage anywhere the radius's overlap. Alternatively, they can keep flying around the party screeching hellishly, forcing DC 21 saves vs stun for 1 round. Becoming stunned can easily mean death in this battle, and you can get hit by up to 15 of these at once, making saving a harry business. That's not counting the auto-damaging spores they can shake every 3 rounds.
The Glabrezu play hell with the party's counters. They possess at-will mirror image, making taking them out difficult, and they can function as spotters for the team, utilizing their constant true-seeing ability. Each can cast power word stun to screw over any foe with 150 HP or less. All can cast reverse gravity and dispel magic, and won't hesitate to shut down the magic items of the party, since a CL 16 dispel magic can shut down the vast majority of magic items easily. Finally they can drop unholy blight every round without fail, dealing 8d8 damage to all good creatures in an area and forcing saves vs nausea. If pushed into combat, they have a 15 ft. reach and decent natural attacks.
Dretch simply skulk about the battlefield dropping stinking clouds into the fray. All the demons are immune to the cloud, but it forces a 5% chance per round to become nauseated for 1d4 rounds, potentially causing some PCs to lose several rounds worth of actions. They also use it because the 20% concealment it provides to people inside the cloud completely negates sneak attack, and thus ruins any chance a rogue has to sneak attack their bosses. With five of them, they should also be able to summon an additional dretch, allowing up to 5-6 stinking clouds throughout the battle.
All of the above is assuming, of course, that none of them are using any of their treasures themselves (such as the marilith using any superior weapons, or clad in armor, or any of them wearing rings or cloaks or anything cool like that, which may indeed be part of their treasure and thus added to their statblock by the GM).
A pit fiend is supposed to be similarly challenging to that.
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So the fighter does crap for the fight... And that's assuming an optimized build with perfect item drops.That AC is far beyond appropriate for any level of play.
What?
Any Full BAB class can easily hit that. Any solid 3/4ths BAB class can hit that with a bit of finangling. Any degree of debuffing can drop that sucker's AC down to downright laughable levels. Considering a Pit Fiend RAW should only be used as a reasonable challenge to a party of 17th level Adventurers and up thats not too crazy.
Fighter 17th
+17 BAB
+10 STR
+7 Weapon(Bane)
+2 WF and GWF
+2 Heroism(Common Buff at that level)
+1 Haste
+5 Weapon Training(Gloves of Dueling)Total: +44
And I'm sure I'm missing something obvious. And the Fighter has probably the more boring solutions to the problem. Add flanking, a Bard's Inspire Courage, or any amount of actual party tactics and they'll down the beast even with higher AC.
If you're fighting a Pit Fiend at any point in your career, you're probably very aware of the theme of creatures and unless the DM is a horrible stickler, you should have access to a metropolis, especially considering any Wizard or Sorcerer can just port everyone there.
Optimization(Since apparently this is it)
Gloves of Dueling(10,000 GP)
+5 Evil Outsider Bane Weapon(Really? Come on. It is incredibly likely that the party saw this all coming. Who throws a Pit Fiend out of nowhere?)
Boots of Haste(Could be cast by an ally)
Heroism(Who doesn't have access to this?)
And the Fighter doesn't do crap for the fight. He fights in concert with his allies like any other adventurer. 17 levels and you haven't figured out some synergies? Seriously? Waves of Exhaustion drop his AC by 3. Hitting on an 8 now instead of 11. Destroying the Buckler drops the AC by 6 and now we hit on a 2+.
Just requires some intelligence instead of rushing up and full attacking.
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So the fighter does crap for the fight...(since the AC we are talking about is 55) And that's assuming an optimized build with perfect item drops.
Considering it's CR+3, hitting 50% of the time is pretty good.... The bane weapon might be pushing it, but it's easily replaced by flanking.
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Human fighter 17 starting strength. (15 high score)
+5 level
+6 enhancement
28 Str
That avoids any inherent bonuses, and any rolls higher than a 15.
+20 Bab, +4 weapon training, +2 weapon focuses, +5 weapon, +9 Str = +40 BaB. Unbuffed, hits on a 15.
+1 haste,
+4 greater heroism, +1 bless, +1 aid, (morale),
+4 inspire courage, +1 guidance (competence),
+6 divine power, +3 divine favor, +1 prayer, (luck)
+20 true strike (insight),
+2 flanking,
+1 higher ground,
+2 aid another,
+2 bane,
+9 successful feint*,
+4 successful trip,
+11 stun*,
+13 pinned*,
+11 invisible*,
+11 blinded*
*cannot be combined entirely
So...in that list, I'm sure there's something a fighter might be able to do to close that 15 point gap.
If you're fighting a Pit Fiend at any point in your career, you're probably very aware of the theme of creatures and unless the DM is a horrible stickler, you should have access to a metropolis, especially considering any Wizard or Sorcerer can just port everyone there.Optimization(Since apparently this is it)
Gloves of Dueling(10,000 GP)
+5 Evil Outsider Bane Weapon(Really? Come on. It is incredibly likely that the party saw this all coming. Who throws a Pit Fiend out of nowhere?)
Boots of Haste(Could be cast by an ally)
Heroism(Who doesn't have access to this?)And the Fighter doesn't do crap for the fight. He fights in concert with his allies like any other adventurer. 17 levels and you haven't figured out some synergies? Seriously? Waves of Exhaustion drop his AC by 3. Hitting on an 8 now instead of 11. Destroying the Buckler drops the AC by 6 and now we hit on a 2+.
Just requires some intelligence instead of rushing up and full attacking.
55 AC? That's ridiculous. No amount of spin will fix that.
Waves of Exhaustion fails do to SR. Oh and good luck being able to sunder a +5 item or doing anything at all to it short of dispelling.