So I have a TWF gunslinger armed with a pair of pistols. Last night one of the pistols misfired and jammed. Next turn I say I fix the pistol ("unjam" it) as a move action.
The DM asks, "which hand do you unjam it with?"
Bottom line -- he says I need to have a free hand in order to unjam the misfired pistol, which means dropping or holstering the working pistol.
I argued that this is not anywhere in the rules that you need a free hand to unjam a pistol.
Who is right? Am I (ie the rules) correct, or is my DM being a weenie?
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So I have a TWF gunslinger armed with a pair of pistols. Last night one of the pistols misfired and jammed. Next turn I say I fix the pistol ("unjam" it) as a move action.
The DM asks, "which hand do you unjam it with?"
Bottom line -- he says I need to have a free hand in order to unjam the misfired pistol, which means dropping or holstering the working pistol.
I argued that this is not anywhere in the rules that you need a free hand to unjam a pistol.
Who is right? Am I (ie the rules) correct, or is my DM being a weenie?
it's called common sense
to unjam the pistol, you need a free hand. one of the big drawbacks of playing a dual wielding pistolero
you're RAW correct, since it doesnt mention that, but he's RAI correct, since how else would you unjam a firearm, other than with magic or that stone spider (that does it for you as a non-action).
my answer: play along and don't complain too much, since you're playing a TWF gunslinger for crying out loud (dex to hit, damage, touch AC, eand cheap and easy ways (comparitively) to get past material DR, among other things). get weapon chords, a glove of storing, or a figurine of wonderous power (slate spider) (found near the bottom of the page, for 10,000g) to avoid such DM intercession in the future.
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Rule #1: the GM is right. The rules are just a guideline. You're playing in the GM's world, after all.
Take a couple of alchemist levels and grow an unjamming hand.
How are are you reloading, anyway?
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Who is right? Am I (ie the rules) correct, or is my DM being a weenie?
Neither. You're being an entitled weenie. He's decided that logic applies in this case, and your build is already powerful enough. My advice is that if this is the only issue you shouldn't complain and play along.
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you are correct to specify that you do not need a hand to un jam you're gone. However, the absence of that caveat deos not imply that a hand is not needed. If you didn't need a free hand they would have mentioned it in the text perhaps.
I would say a hand is necessary, since you need a free hand to reload it makes sense you would need one to unjam. In fact, it may be better to holster your other sidearm, or drop it, so you can have a free hand to reload that turn anyway.
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When a gun misfires it gains the broken condition, and in fact if your DM is making that easy enough fix that it can be done during combat (at least without the right feats, or perhaps some sort of archetype ability that isn't coming to mind, did you take something to allow you to fix it that quickly?) he's going easy on you (which is fine if that's his house rule). In any case, not allowing it to be done single handed is just common sense.
http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/ultimateCombat/ultimateCombatFeats.html# _gunsmithing
Gunslingers are able to correct the damage done by a misfire without having to take an extended amount of time. In fact, their quickclear ability allows gunslingers to remedy it on the fly for a nominal grit point fee. It isn't the GM being generous, it's how the class works.
Buuuut on that same hand, you would require a free hand to correct the condition. Why not buy a weapon chord? Drop it as a free action, retrieve it the next round as a move action. Prevents you from having to holster the weapon and waste an action on that.
what i read was "i played a gunslinger and the only thing that keeps gunslingers from being completely broken is upsetting me
not to be rude, but gunslingers (shooty shooty bang bang's) are so overly strong in pathfinder you shouldn't complain about anything that makes your life slightly inconvenient, i mean really, having to drop your weapon to your weapon cord is a free action, re drawing it is again, a free action, as long as you have +1 BAB (oh look, gunslingers are fast BAB, so level 1.) so theres literally 0 issue here, stop being entitled.
You are looking for Quick Clear (Ex). It's a gunslinger deed gained at 1st level.
Shorthand: Have 1 Grit? Standard to remove. Spend 1 Grit? Move action to remove.
Regarding the issue at hand. The Quick Clear deed does not state that it can be done without having any hand free.
This is absolutely within the DM's realm of making a call. Since loading a firearm needs a second hand, the idea that you are somehow clearing out a jam implies the same thing.
I'd also ask how reloading is taking place, without something like weapon cords or magic. And even then, the DM is within his right to limit how many "Free actions" you get to reload two firearms per round.
Or are you using advanced firearms? A revolver won't really be that bothersome for reloading until completely out. But in that case, it can't blow up anyways, so the worst that happens is you have a higher range of auto-failure (a roll of 1-5 instead of just 1, since misfires go up by 4).
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I think pushing this issue may open a can of worms for your character.
It is the Quick clear deed that gunslingers( other than MS) get at level 1.
And to the OP your GM is not being a weiner, i think he is being reasonable.
So go and apologize if you called him a weiner, holster that working gun, spend a grit point to Quick clear as a move action( or save the Grit and clear as a standart action now were you used the move to holster the gun) and in the next round Quick draw and shot again ( if your guns are loaded:)
Edit: ok i type slow.
Edit: it seems that the post my first Line was directet at have dissapered.
what i read was "i played a gunslinger and the only thing that keeps gunslingers from being completely broken is upsetting me
not to be rude, but gunslingers (shooty shooty bang bang's) are so overly strong in pathfinder you shouldn't complain about anything that makes your life slightly inconvenient, i mean really, having to drop your weapon to your weapon cord is a free action, re drawing it is again, a free action, as long as you have +1 BAB (oh look, gunslingers are fast BAB, so level 1.) so theres literally 0 issue here, stop being entitled.
Archers can deal similar levels of DPR from 5 times the range with a far cheaper baseline weapon, far cheaper ammunition and no misfire chance. bows also benefit from a great amount of exclusive magic item and feat synergies, don't require as much feat investment to pull off, and area martial weapon rather than an exotic weapon.
Gunslingers aren't any more broken than archers, in fact, archers are more overpowered.
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what i read was "i played a gunslinger and the only thing that keeps gunslingers from being completely broken is upsetting me
not to be rude, but gunslingers (shooty shooty bang bang's) are so overly strong in pathfinder you shouldn't complain about anything that makes your life slightly inconvenient, i mean really, having to drop your weapon to your weapon cord is a free action, re drawing it is again, a free action, as long as you have +1 BAB (oh look, gunslingers are fast BAB, so level 1.) so theres literally 0 issue here, stop being entitled.
Archers can deal similar levels of DPR from 5 times the range with a far cheaper baseline weapon, far cheaper ammunition and no misfire chance. bows also benefit from a great amount of exclusive magic item and feat synergies, don't require as much feat investment to pull off, and area martial weapon rather than an exotic weapon.
Gunslingers aren't any more broken than archers, in fact, archers are more overpowered.
I Fall to se how that is relevant. And Lets take the guns vs. Bows talk somewere Else.
Oh really? Because those pistols absolutely wreck CR appropriate encounters. All the Gunslinger really needs is one good full attack. A Gunslinger can land his iterative attacks much more easily than an archer due to targeting touch ac. The only feat you need to make firearms work is Rapid Reload. From there you take everything an archer would minus Manyshot.
In exchange I get
Dex to Damage
Target Touch AC
Cons
Slightly expensive weapons, pretty moot at higher levels
Misfiring does suck. Though the Gunslinger can fix it pretty easy.
1 feat less. (Oh no!)
I'd also mention the massive and bow-exclusive DPR increase gained from Manyshot.
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I'd also mention the massive and bow-exclusive DPR increase gained from Manyshot.
Two Words.
Double Barreled. Depending on the stage of the game, it's either 4 or 5 times as massive.
Edit: I can't find this Scintillating Scales spell. Where is it?
Ok we seem to be derailed, but i guess the OP Got his answer.
I must admit that i find both gunslingers and Many of the archer options very good.
A decent gunslinger can down a level apropriate baddie if he dosent misfire. But so can a archer if the AC isent too high. These are the strong ranged weapons.
I'd also mention the massive and bow-exclusive DPR increase gained from Manyshot.Two Words.
Double Barreled. Depending on the stage of the game, it's either 4 or 5 times as massive.
so blow through nearly 100+ gold pieces per round when the archer blows through 1 gold piece every 4 rounds.
gold isn't infinite, and that is 1 gold starved gunslinger if they keep up this practice.
Scintillating Scales is 3.5e material.
gunslingers dont NEED magic items, however if you really want you can certainly purchace magic ammunition, or oils to make your ammunition magical. gunslingers are proven to do more damage than any other class except the hammer-the-gap dagger scenario-breaker build, and their damage is much more sustainable than his. there is no other class that gives access to x4crit, d12 damage, range, and 6 or more attacks per round. your only truly crippling caviat is weapon jamming, and that's it. a level 12 gunslinger will outdamage my level 12 ranged inquisitor. period. and thats at level 12 when inquisitors finally don't suck, let alone at levels 1-6 when all other ranged classes suck. if you have issues with getting 5 ft stepped on, you need to find a way around that on your own.
on top of the fact that a Vast majority of encounters happen at less-than-50 ft range in society play, and homebrew is homebrew.
I'd also mention the massive and bow-exclusive DPR increase gained from Manyshot.Two Words.
Double Barreled. Depending on the stage of the game, it's either 4 or 5 times as massive.
so blow through nearly 100+ gold pieces per round when the archer blows through 1 gold piece every 4 rounds.
gold isn't infinite, and that is 1 gold starved gunslinger if they keep up this practice.
Money is fairly fluid. Killing the BBEG with 14 attacks at level 20? Priceless. Level 13, never misfire.
Keep in mind the Gunslinger makes ammo at 10% of the cost.
back to the dragon, it has AC 38, my inquisitor fully buffed (4 rounds of a dragon smacking you, or prior knowledge of the attack and enough time to buff) i have a +24 to hit. which means i need to roll 15 AT LEAST. Gargantuan black dragons have 8 touch AC so you need to not missfire. they have a reach of 15 ft with their bite, which means that an intelligent gunslinger should outrange it. consider getting into point-blank range, and using your 5 ft step after you attack rather than before, or maybe letting your tank distract it while you do your thing.
I'd also mention the massive and bow-exclusive DPR increase gained from Manyshot.Two Words.
Double Barreled. Depending on the stage of the game, it's either 4 or 5 times as massive.
so blow through nearly 100+ gold pieces per round when the archer blows through 1 gold piece every 4 rounds.
gold isn't infinite, and that is 1 gold starved gunslinger if they keep up this practice.
Money is fairly fluid. Killing the BBEG with 14 attacks at level 20? Priceless. Level 13, never misfire.
Keep in mind the Gunslinger makes ammo at 10% of the cost.
10% for bullet and black powder seperately
50% for cartridges, cartridges cost 12 for paper and 20 for metal, 6 and 10 to craft accordingly
assuming you fire your 10 paper cartridges, that is 60 gold, 14 attacks x6 gold pieces is 84 gold pieces, per round, not as much as i expected
but those free action reloads require you to use cartridges
back to the dragon, it has AC 38, my inquisitor fully buffed (4 rounds of a dragon smacking you, or prior knowledge of the attack and enough time to buff) i have a +24 to hit. which means i need to roll 15 AT LEAST. Gargantuan black dragons have 8 touch AC so you need to not missfire. they have a reach of 15 ft with their bite, which means that an intelligent gunslinger should outrange it. consider getting into point-blank range, and using your 5 ft step after you attack rather than before, or maybe letting your tank distract it while you do your thing.
with a standard action and a second level spell slot, that same Dragon can have a Touch AC of 38 for a number of minutes equal to it's caster level.
back to the dragon, it has AC 38, my inquisitor fully buffed (4 rounds of a dragon smacking you, or prior knowledge of the attack and enough time to buff) i have a +24 to hit. which means i need to roll 15 AT LEAST. Gargantuan black dragons have 8 touch AC so you need to not missfire. they have a reach of 15 ft with their bite, which means that an intelligent gunslinger should outrange it. consider getting into point-blank range, and using your 5 ft step after you attack rather than before, or maybe letting your tank distract it while you do your thing.with a standard action and a second level spell slot, that same Dragon can have a Touch AC of 38 for a number of minutes equal to it's caster level.
3.5e spells are not core. this is speaking from core pathfinder.
EDIT: this occured during Pathfinder Society play. 3.5e is not allowed in society, i'll not accept any argument that has any non-society legal rulings in it if i am constrained to society in my own rulings. i think its fair to ask for equal footing.
I'd also mention the massive and bow-exclusive DPR increase gained from Manyshot.Two Words.
Double Barreled. Depending on the stage of the game, it's either 4 or 5 times as massive.
so blow through nearly 100+ gold pieces per round when the archer blows through 1 gold piece every 4 rounds.
gold isn't infinite, and that is 1 gold starved gunslinger if they keep up this practice.
Money is fairly fluid. Killing the BBEG with 14 attacks at level 20? Priceless. Level 13, never misfire.
Keep in mind the Gunslinger makes ammo at 10% of the cost.
10% for bullet and black powder seperately
50% for cartridges, cartridges cost 12 for paper and 20 for metal, 6 and 10 to craft accordingly
assuming you fire your 10 paper cartridges, that is 60 gold, 14 attacks x6 gold pieces is 84 gold pieces, per round, not as much as i expected
but those free action reloads require you to use cartridges
They sure do, thankfully I tend to kill the enemies before needing to reload. I can just make 8 attacks for two rounds and if that doesn't surprisingly end it, I do the full insanity reload juggling and barrage for 14 attacks.
3.5e spells are not core. this is speaking from core pathfinder.back to the dragon, it has AC 38, my inquisitor fully buffed (4 rounds of a dragon smacking you, or prior knowledge of the attack and enough time to buff) i have a +24 to hit. which means i need to roll 15 AT LEAST. Gargantuan black dragons have 8 touch AC so you need to not missfire. they have a reach of 15 ft with their bite, which means that an intelligent gunslinger should outrange it. consider getting into point-blank range, and using your 5 ft step after you attack rather than before, or maybe letting your tank distract it while you do your thing.with a standard action and a second level spell slot, that same Dragon can have a Touch AC of 38 for a number of minutes equal to it's caster level.
Gunslingers aren't core either. i'm merely using a compatible splatbook to counter something from another compatible splatbook
Pathfinder was literally designed to be backwards compatible with 3.5, i'm merely using another feature of the system and a marketing gimmick from the initial release
back to the dragon, it has AC 38, my inquisitor fully buffed (4 rounds of a dragon smacking you, or prior knowledge of the attack and enough time to buff) i have a +24 to hit. which means i need to roll 15 AT LEAST. Gargantuan black dragons have 8 touch AC so you need to not missfire. they have a reach of 15 ft with their bite, which means that an intelligent gunslinger should outrange it. consider getting into point-blank range, and using your 5 ft step after you attack rather than before, or maybe letting your tank distract it while you do your thing.with a standard action and a second level spell slot, that same Dragon can have a Touch AC of 38 for a number of minutes equal to it's caster level.
I find allowing the Spell Compendium turns the game back into Casters Rule, Martials Drool. Without it, I can mitigate it somewhat. There were a ridiculous number of broken spells in that book.
3.5e spells are not core. this is speaking from core pathfinder.back to the dragon, it has AC 38, my inquisitor fully buffed (4 rounds of a dragon smacking you, or prior knowledge of the attack and enough time to buff) i have a +24 to hit. which means i need to roll 15 AT LEAST. Gargantuan black dragons have 8 touch AC so you need to not missfire. they have a reach of 15 ft with their bite, which means that an intelligent gunslinger should outrange it. consider getting into point-blank range, and using your 5 ft step after you attack rather than before, or maybe letting your tank distract it while you do your thing.with a standard action and a second level spell slot, that same Dragon can have a Touch AC of 38 for a number of minutes equal to it's caster level.Gunslingers aren't core either. i'm merely using a compatible splatbook to counter something from another compatible splatbook
Pathfinder was literally designed to be backwards compatible with 3.5, i'm merely using another feature of the system and a marketing gimmick from the initial release
Ultimate Combat is from the Core Line of Pathfinder.
gunslingers dont NEED magic items, however if you really want you can certainly purchace magic ammunition, or oils to make your ammunition magical. gunslingers are proven to do more damage than any other class except the hammer-the-gap dagger scenario-breaker build, and their damage is much more sustainable than his. there is no other class that gives access to x4crit, d12 damage, range, and 6 or more attacks per round. your only truly crippling caviat is weapon jamming, and that's it. a level 12 gunslinger will outdamage my level 12 ranged inquisitor. period. and thats at level 12 when inquisitors finally don't suck, let alone at levels 1-6 when all other ranged classes suck. if you have issues with getting 5 ft stepped on, you need to find a way around that on your own.
on top of the fact that a Vast majority of encounters happen at less-than-50 ft range in society play, and homebrew is homebrew.
Your inquisitor sucked until level12???
Well you do have better spells than the gunslinger yes?
I find allowing the Spell Compendium turns the game back into Casters Rule, Martials Drool. Without it, I can mitigate it somewhat. There were a ridiculous number of broken spells in that book.back to the dragon, it has AC 38, my inquisitor fully buffed (4 rounds of a dragon smacking you, or prior knowledge of the attack and enough time to buff) i have a +24 to hit. which means i need to roll 15 AT LEAST. Gargantuan black dragons have 8 touch AC so you need to not missfire. they have a reach of 15 ft with their bite, which means that an intelligent gunslinger should outrange it. consider getting into point-blank range, and using your 5 ft step after you attack rather than before, or maybe letting your tank distract it while you do your thing.with a standard action and a second level spell slot, that same Dragon can have a Touch AC of 38 for a number of minutes equal to it's caster level.
the spell compendium does have a few problem spells, but most of it isn't too different in power from the more powerful side of the core stuff, there is a lot of interesting stuff that allow casters to make Martials better at killing stuff and a lot of ways to balance gunslingers. the key is to keep watch on the specific 3.5 spells in question, Scintillating scales is a pretty balanced spell and more of a way to stop warlocks and other ray based casters. it works well against gunslingers and bomb throwing alchemists too.
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Calling shenanigans on this soapbox.
Citing a 3.5e spell is square in the land of House Rule territory for topical discussion. It is NOT an official pathfinder option. The the APG, UM, and UC are all part of the Core Rulebook Line. Let me reiterate. Core Rulebook Line. Dismissing it as 'a compatible splatbook' simple guts your own position stance into nonexistence on this topic.
Apologies if any offense given to anyone.
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Next up: "I got my feet chopped off by a demon, and my GM says I can't just get up and walk away? He's a dick, don't you agree?"