Bloodrager / Dragon Disciple


Advanced Class Guide Playtest General Discussion

Sovereign Court

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Hi everybody,

As far as I can tell, the design team hasn’t clarified how the Blood of Dragons ability from Dragon Disciple interacts with the Bloodrager class. I decided to do a little number crunching on a Bloodrager (Draconic Bloodline) multiclassing into the Dragon Disciple Prestige class (for PFS so I stopped at level at 11). This was using the revised version released earlier today (although I don't know if it makes a difference here)

Basically, I wanted to compare 3 things:
1) A straight Bloodrager level 11
2) A Bloodrager 5 / DD 6 assuming that the Blood of Dragons ability from DD did not stack with the Bloodrager draconic bloodline determining powers
3) A Bloodrager 5 / DD 6 assuming that the Blood of Dragons ability from DD did stack with the Bloodrager draconic bloodline when determining powers.

I did not do full builds since you could probably make the choices in feats etc. for each of the three possibilities.
So here is how things ended up breaking down (Note I am not posting full builds for brevities sake and I wanted to highlight the *differences* between the three):

Pure Bloodrager
BAB: 11
Raging: STR: +6, CON: +6, WILL: +3,
Claws: 1d8,
Resist Energy: 10
Natural Armor: +2
Breath Weapon: 11d6 1x/day
Base Fort/Ref/Will: 7/3/3
DR: 2-
Bonus Spells: Shield (1st), Resist Energy (2nd)

Bloodrager/DD (5/6) IF they DONT stack
BAB: 9
Raging: STR +4, CON: +4, WILL: +2,
Claws: 1d6,
Resist Energy: 5 (Note doesn’t stack with the 5 gained from DD)
Natural Armor: +4 (+1 from BR and +3 from DD)
Breath Weapon: 6d6 energy 1x/day
Blindsense: 30’
Ability Boosts: STR +4, CON +2
"Sorcerer" Claws 1d4 and Bite: 1d6+1d6 Energy (3+CHA Rounds)
Base Fort/Ref/Will: 7/3/4
*Spells only as a 9th level Bloodrager* (no 3rd level spells)
Bonus Spells: Mage Armor (1st ? do you get this since its not on the Bloodrager spell list, I don't know), Resist Energy (2nd)

Bloodrager/DD (5/6) IF they DO stack
BAB: 9
Raging: STR +4, CON: +4 WILL: +2,
Claws: 1d8 and Bite: 1d6+1d6 Energy
Resist Energy: 10
Natural Armor: +4 (2 from BR levels (including the stacking from DD) and 2 from DD itself)
Breath Weapon: 11d6 2x/day
Blindsense 30’
Ability Boosts: STR +4, CON +2
Base Fort/Ref/Will: 7/3/4
*Spells only as a 9th level Bloodrager*
Bonus Spells: Shield, Resist Energy (I assumed that if the bloodlines “stack” then you would use the bonus spells listed in the BR class rather than the Sorcerer Draconic bloodline)

All right so that is it.
Looking at the differences, they are notable, if not terribly powerful.
If you multiclass into Dragon Disciple (regardless of stacking)
You lose 2 levels of spell casting, resulting in no 3rd level spells but no difference in the # of spells known, or, oddly, the # of first or second available per day.
You lose 2 BAB (loss of third iterative if using a manufactured weapon)
Your raging bonus to STR/CON is 2 less, but you gain base stats, net your CON doesn’t change and your STR is actually 2 higher (still at net -1 to hit stuff since you lost 2 BAB). Advantage to base stats since you won’t always be raging, but lower chance to hit while raging.
Your Raging bonus to will saves is -1, but your base Will save is +1 so basically a wash (minor advantage to having a higher Will while not raging in case you are caught flat footed)
You gain +2 Natural Armor
Loss of DR 2/-
You get the same number of bonus feats but get them a level later (6/9 if straight Bloodrager and 7/10 with multiclass) and have a slightly different list (no cleave but added quicken spell and skill focus: knowledge arcana)
You gain access to a bite attack that does 1d6+1d6 Energy (this probably more than offsets the loss of the third iterative attack)
Your breath weapon will change (see below)

Comparing the Stacking to not stacking the changes are a little more significant:
If they stack:
Your 1st level bonus spell is shield rather than mage armor (shield is more useful since you will probably be wearing actual armor).
Your Energy Resist is +5 greater
Your claws do 1d8 instead of 1d6
Your breath weapon will change: either do -5d6 damage (not stacking) or you will be able to use it +1 time per day (stacking).
In order to get the bite attack if they don’t stack you might have to reduce the damage of your claws. Dragon disciple says you only get the bite when you manifest the bloodline claws which do 1d4 damage (not how I think it should work, but a possible interpretation).

Personally, I feel that allowing the Blood of Dragons ability to stack with the Bloodrager Draconic Bloodline results in a more powerful character than not. However, doing so would also prevent any shenanigans of taking a non-draconic Bloodrager Bloodline and still getting some dragon peanut butter in your abyssal or aberrant chocolate (I didn’t look to see if anything really jumped out at me as being an overly powerful combination if they don’t stack)

Thanks for sticking it out!
What are your thoughts on combining the Bloodrager with the Dragon Disciple?


Personally I'm more stoked about the arcanist and DD now working properly.

However I feel the need to point out that the DD always made any sorcerer that chose the dragon bloodline more powerfull then it would've been otherwise, without losing much and gaining so much more. so the fact that a bloodrager DD would be more powerfull then it would be seems only as logical. Having the bloodrager bloodline recognized as a bloodline will indeed prevent non draconic bloodragers from dipping in. And frankly, I don't see any reason for it not to.


Diekssus wrote:


However I feel the need to point out that the DD always made any sorcerer that chose the dragon bloodline more powerfull then it would've been otherwise, without losing much and gaining so much more

Except, you know, 3 caster levels. None of the stuff DD gets is really worth 1.

Sovereign Court

Well, I never made a DD in Pathfinder. But I always felt it "fit" a character who just dipped into Sorcerer as a pre-req anyway.


deuxhero wrote:
Diekssus wrote:


However I feel the need to point out that the DD always made any sorcerer that chose the dragon bloodline more powerfull then it would've been otherwise, without losing much and gaining so much more

Except, you know, 3 caster levels. None of the stuff DD gets is really worth 1.

eh, the mobility, natural armor, tasty stat increases, and free (nice) buffs via FotD seems a pretty decent trade for someone mainly combat-oriented, with spells available if they want them. CL17 can be mitigated with a trait (magical knack) and surpassed with an orange prism ioun stone (slotted in a wayfinder), it's not terribly expensive by the time you need it anyway, so you're not losing too much in the deal.


Overland Flight is a spell, so wings are not a big deal.

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