It might be a terrible terrible idea.. But I'ma make a warpriest shuriken flinger.
As long as you're okay with dropping to 3/4 BaB and back down to d2's in damage as soon as it leaves your hand.
I'm trying to figure out how to break 2d8 base damage, but I really can't. A greatsword is already 2d6/19-20. 20th level might as well be Weapon Specialization as a bonus feat. The clearest route to mayhem is two-weapon use, but it's doubtful you would have the Dex for it.
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I just realized you could do Simon Belmont with the Warpriest. :D
Massive whip damage plus spells and screen-clearing attacks on undead!
Hacuna falcata, what a wonderful phrase...
Edit: I've been capitalizing random words all day. Tiger.
have they been mostly nouns? you could be turning german.
My initial take was that this class is too much, however I am willing to playtest. My thoughts drifted back to "this might be ok" after remembering it can only cast 6th level cleric spells.
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Actually really wanting to build a party of divergent warpriests now, just to see how wide-ranging they can get.
Now to find time...
edit-Wondering how to do a matching pair of starknife-using Desna and Black Butterfly warpriests that could compliment each other's fighting styles while being distinct enough and exemplifying their respective patrons...
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One of the guy's I play with is playing this class. He wanted to use a Greatsword. The changes will allow that. It makes sense. The war arm of a church should be able to fight effectively. Deities would know when their favored weapon isn't particularly effective.
That being said, this is going to be one tough class.
With the Fervor changes, they can now buff with Divine Power and Righteous Might in a single round while using a weapon that does great base damage.
My player started with an 18 strength.
Let's see what that is like around lvl 16 with a Greatsword.
18 +4 ability boosts from level +4 enhancement belt = 26 base strength
Divine Might:+5 luck bonus attack/damage
Righteous Might +4 size bonus str
Str: 30 +15 damage two-handed
Power Attack Full BAB: -5/+15 damage two-handed
+5 weapon with sacred weapon
+5 luck
Attack: +16 Full bab sacred weapon +10 str -5 PA +5 luck +5 enhancement = +31 attack
+40 damage per swing
5 attacks per round with full BAB and Divine Power
Bonuses offset Power Attack penalty
I think this will probably turn out to be the second best melee class in the game behind the Invulnerable Rager Come and Get Me Barbarian. This will be one more replacement class for the boring fighter that completely outclasses the fighter. Fighters are not at all competitive with classes like War Priest, Inquisitor, Ranger, Paladin, and Barbarian. War Priest will fall into the damage dealing/melee class area.
Conceptually I like this class. I think the abilities for the most part fit. I like that the designed decided to allow any weapon. Deities would want their militant arm to be well armed and capable in battle.
It might have a bit too many abilities. Hopefully that will be figured out during playtesting.
I think this will probably turn out to be the second best melee class in the game behind the Invulnerable Rager Come and Get Me Barbarian. This will be one more replacement class for the boring fighter that completely outclasses the fighter. Fighters are not at all competitive with classes like War Priest, Inquisitor, Ranger, Paladin, and Barbarian. War Priest will fall into the damage dealing/melee class area.
Well...that's kind of how the Fighter is. It's the class you give people who've never played the game before, or don't know what they're doing. The Rogue is kind of the same, and I'm sure the Brawler will be too. Classes that have special abilities, spells, powers, tactics and so forth always become preferable because they reward players who are intelligent, creative and more experienced.
I think this will probably turn out to be the second best melee class in the game behind the Invulnerable Rager Come and Get Me Barbarian. This will be one more replacement class for the boring fighter that completely outclasses the fighter. Fighters are not at all competitive with classes like War Priest, Inquisitor, Ranger, Paladin, and Barbarian. War Priest will fall into the damage dealing/melee class area.Well...that's kind of how the Fighter is. It's the class you give people who've never played the game before, or don't know what they're doing. The Rogue is kind of the same, and I'm sure the Brawler will be too. Classes that have special abilities, spells, powers, tactics and so forth always become preferable because they reward players who are intelligent, creative and more experienced.
I see it as making the class more powerful. It doesn't take much intelligence to cast spells that boost your abilities in combat.
Given the new paradigm Paizo has been using for class design, the rogue and fighter could use a re-design. Every class but those two seems to get options to boost their weaknesses (aka one good save) except for them.
That's not a relevant discussion in this thread. I'll end it there.
Overall, I like the war priest. Churches should have hardcore combatants dedicated to defending their faith backed by the holy power of their gods.
This class will even be able to heal themselves while still dealing damage. At high level they can cast a full heal while still making five attacks. That is going to be a pretty potent high level ability. A cleric or inquisitor couldn't pull that off without a magic item or specific build.
This class will even be able to heal themselves while still dealing damage. At high level they can cast a full heal while still making five attacks. That is going to be a pretty potent high level ability. A cleric or inquisitor couldn't pull that off without a magic item or specific build.
I think that and the sacred weapon damage might just be the two best features of this class.
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Sorry but is not a great revision:
- Sacred weapon feature only helps weapons with low damage and his duration is too low. Possibly one step superior dice for one round would be nice (example: a long sword that makes 1d10 for one round, or scimitar 1d8, or greataxe 1d20?(or 2 other dices)...) With this change the people don't demands the full BAB or the bonus feat and all happy the dagger users and the greatsword user too.
- Fervor class feature based in charisma is a heavy load for a warpriest class. Possibly based on Str or Con improve its use, but is best a feature like oracle's bond would be better or something like: you cure your str/con/wis... bonus to ALL your allies in a 10', 20' or 30' radius This is best than cure 1d6 to only one ally or yourself and is more warpriest than the first fervor feature.
Thanks for all!!
It might be a terrible terrible idea.. But I'ma make a warpriest shuriken flinger.As long as you're okay with dropping to 3/4 BaB and back down to d2's in damage as soon as it leaves your hand.
I can see the damage drop being a thing but how does the base attack dropping work ? at least for the multiple attacks.
Sorry but is not a great revision:
- Sacred weapon feature only helps weapons with low damage and his duration is too low. Possibly one step superior dice for one round would be nice (example: a long sword that makes 1d10 for one round, or scimitar 1d8, or greataxe 1d20?(or 2 other dices)...) With this change the people don't demands the full BAB or the bonus feat and all happy the dagger users and the greatsword user too.
- Fervor class feature based in charisma is a heavy load for a warpriest class. Possibly based on Str or Con improve its use, but is best a feature like oracle's bond would be better or something like: you cure your str/con/wis... bonus to ALL your allies in a 10', 20' or 30' radius This is best than cure 1d6 to only one ally or yourself and is more warpriest than the first fervor feature.
PLEASE Mr Bulhman and developer team change the blessing list for Gorum, Nethys, Torag, Abadar Earth blessing is in wrong deities!!
Thanks for all!!
1) the increased damae die is always active. It's the special abilities that you have to activate.
Also, there's nothing wrong with a greatswords damage at level one. It simply doesn't need to be upped, while the dagger pretty much has to, if you aren't swimming in bonus damage that doesn't care if you wield a light weapon(eg: knifemaster rogue.)2) I could see it being less MAD. It is pretty strong already, though, so maybe MADness balances it?
3) yeah. It's probably an oversight, though.
@raith: shouldn't a fighter be doing comparable damage?
He'll have more money to buy str gear, and more points to buy str, since he isn't MAD.
Say he dumps cha, dumps int, and has neutral wisdom.
This means he can easily afford doing 20 str, instead of 18. No caster gear means he can afford +6 str instead of +4.
20+6+4(level)=30str.
16 BaB
WF, IWF, WS, IWS, +4 damage, +2 to hit.
weapon training, +3 hit/damage.
PA -5/+15
+26/21/16/11=+16+10+2+3-5/iteratives. 2d6+37 damage.
This compares pretty well to the warpriest, losing +5 to hit and +3 to damage.
The fighter has other things going for him as well, though. If we give him Two anded fighter archetype, the damage race swings back into his favor. He's also been using critical feats since level 11, something the warpriest can't do till 15. In addition, combat manouvers are something he's got both the feats, the BaB, and the ability scores to be good at.
Overall, I'd say that there's room for the fighter still.
I can see the damage drop being a thing but how does the base attack dropping work ? at least for the multiple attacks.It might be a terrible terrible idea.. But I'ma make a warpriest shuriken flinger.As long as you're okay with dropping to 3/4 BaB and back down to d2's in damage as soon as it leaves your hand.
I don't have the PDF open right now (and would need to re-download it to look at it on this device), but if I recall the bonuses for the weapon ability ALL got deactivated upon being dropped, leaving the Warpriest's hand, etc. The extra damage dice AND the BaB.
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I don't have the PDF open right now (and would need to re-download it to look at it on this device), but if I recall the bonuses for the weapon ability ALL got deactivated upon being dropped, leaving the Warpriest's hand, etc. The extra damage dice AND the BaB.I can see the damage drop being a thing but how does the base attack dropping work ? at least for the multiple attacks.It might be a terrible terrible idea.. But I'ma make a warpriest shuriken flinger.As long as you're okay with dropping to 3/4 BaB and back down to d2's in damage as soon as it leaves your hand.
right, but by the time that happens you've already made the attack roll...
Can we add, at the end of the entry for Fervor, "All feats and traits that adjust the Paladin ability 'lay on hands' adjust this ability also."? This would eschew the need to create new feats that are basically the same as current feats/traits. Also, would the Versatile Channeler feat augment Fervor?
Concerning the ‘Sacred Weapon Damage” ability, instead of scaling damage, why not count Warpriest level as fighter level for the purpose of feats? This would allow a Warpriest to still specialize in the weapons of his choice without creating a 2d8 dagger or sap.
That’s my two cents on the subject.
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I think this version is much better. Sacred weapon not tying you to the favoured weapon is a good move. Swift action casting of buff spells was much needed. Self-healing as a swift action also good.
I like Fervour a lot (and I am going to stick to that spelling :p), Sacred Weapon using the same scaling damage as a monk was a good move. Keeping Channel energy doesn't make much of a difference, just allows a little out of combat healing to allow the rest of the party to keep going - a good thing in my mind but not a big thing.
I can see myself playing this class now (and frequently) whereas before I would have built the concept using a crusader cleric and been more effective.
I still feel that Blessings are too bland though. I've been building a few Warpriests ready to play through at the weekend and I just find myself discounting them entirely and building around ideas I have and then choosing whatever blessing is available after the rest of the build. The benefits they offer are small, uninteresting and limited. Restrictions on whether they apply to melee or ranged attacks. Requiring a standard action for a +1 bonus or +1d6 to damage that doesn't scale. Often being at a disconnect with the portfolio of the god that offers them. By 3rd level I would always be better off using that standard action for something else. Blessings are unlikely to get further support in other books either. I would honestly drop them entirely and replace them with a single domain in the same manner as an inquisitor.
insaneogeddon,
Good catch on the crit range. They do need to address that. Otherwise we'll be seeing tons of scimitar, falcata, kukri, and rapier wielders.
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I don't think the crit range matters all that much in this instance. You don't see fighters only taking scimitar, falcata, kukri and rapiers.
Because fighter's don't get to base their weapon damage off a table that increases beyond the base die do they? It needs to be addressed if they intend to allow such weapons to reach 2d8 base damage.
You do see a lot of Falcata weapon users. It is the preferred weapon of two-weapon fighters past a certain level. Power gamers use Falcatas. Two-weapon fighting even with a Falcata is generally inferior to two-hander fighting, so you don't see many two-weapon fighters.
I made a two-weapon fighter with Falcatas and he was a beastly damage dealer in a non-point buy campaign. In point buy it is far superior to go with two-handed weapons.
In point buy campaigns, Paizo has made the two-weapon option so inferior to the two-hander option that few players will hamstring themselves to fight with two weapons. Once again, that's a discussion for another thread.
Crit range needs to be addressed. A war priest gets to stack a ton of static multipliers with a higher base damage not based on weapon type, which means crit range will be the greatest determining factor for weapon choice.
I DM a lot. I'm coming at this from what I know I'll have to deal with from players. I want any serious exploits killed before this class is official.
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Can we add, at the end of the entry for Fervor, "All feats and traits that adjust the Paladin ability 'lay on hands' adjust this ability also."? This would eschew the need to create new feats that are basically the same as current feats/traits.
You're assuming the dev team wants to have those feats exist. I'm not sure I would, in their shoes. +2 fervor a day is a lot, lot, lot better than +2 lay on hands a day, because that's an extra 2 spells a day you can swift-action cast. Warpriests are already nova-inclined, now. I wouldn't necessarily suggest exacerbating the problem.
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If someone is using a Falcata as a Warpriest's sacred weapon then fair play to them because they've spent two of their feats to do so.
Exotic Weapon Proficiency means they can't take it at first level (requires BAB+1) which means they can't use the free Weapon Focus to make it a Sacred Weapon and will have to spend a feat later on to make it a Sacred Weapon. Pretty sure no god has falcata as a favoured weapon.
Looks like a lot of fun. I could see a war priest of Lamashtu starting out with a falchion and then moving to a scimitar or kukri later on. I am happy with all the changes. The capstone is still kinda meh. I don't think the class needs to get fighter feat it already has 6th level casting and effectively full BAB.
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Yeah, I'm confused by people claiming the class is too strong and that it also needs to be less MAD.
2) I could see it being less MAD. It is pretty strong already, though, so maybe MADness balances it?
Yep me too. Though I'd be very happy to see a Charisma based caster… :)
* I do think there is a lot of clarifying that needs to happen in just how Sacred Weapon works for feat prerequisites and thrown weapons.
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My question involves how fervor works along side of channel. I understand they are in the same pool now, but does that mean a war-priest can't take the extra channel feat? Or how about selective channel?
What I am getting at is, does fervor function as channel for the purpose of feats? If not, are there plans for fervor feats to be introduced in the advanced class guide?
thanks,
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Would this class work if spell progression matched the Paladin?
No. Not for a very long time, anyway, and would probably be very boring and underpowered to do so. Keep in mind Paladin spellcasting doesn't even begin until 4th level, and that's only for having a high enough stat to get bonus spells. Because this class is so MAD, and the Paladin spellcasting gets so little spells (4/4/3/3 @ 20th), that would probably kill this class.
I should also point out, spells for the Paladin are basically just a minor bonus, and one of the bigger requests is for Paladin archtypes that give up spellcasting entirely.
So, does Aspect of War have a uses per day limit? And how long does it take to activate anyway? Because as written, couldn't you just use it all the time?
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I'm not sure why people are so concerned this is too good all of a sudden. It's definitely good, but it's not going to outshine the barbarian, paladin, or fighter. It competes with them for damage output but has specialties in other areas than them.
And as for the scaling weapon damage, many good weapons aren't meaningfully affected by it at all. Sure, it encourages power gamers to use weapons with high crit ranges. Those were already strong choices, and there's already homogeneity in power gamer weapon usage in Pathfinder. Very few weapons are really worthwhile, and whereas this class makes some strong weapons stronger it also makes some quite weak weapons much stronger (which decreases homogeneity in the weapon usage of the average player). A scimitar averaging 14 base damage on a crit at high levels (18 at 20th) instead of 7 isn't game-breaking even if it is strong.
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Weapon die forces choices that many melee-types are forced to make when starting a character and stick with.
Given that a high level warpriest is going to be casting Righteous Might, that would increase his die to 3d8 for base damage. That further lends itself to a high crit range on top of all the other static multipliers from spells. That will give them a substantial advantage over other melee classes on top of being able to wear heavy armor like a fighter.
I'd prefer not to encourage my players to engage in any more cheese. I have to deal with enough cheese as it is with every Magus using a scimitar. I'd prefer they didn't create another class that encouraged a heavy focus on crit range.
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So, one thing that keeps popping out at me as off is the Sacred Weapon additional weapon properties for Good and Lawful.
"If he is good, he can add holy and merciful.
If he is lawful, he can add axiomatic and ghost touch."
It seems to me that these two should probably be swapped. I would think that many more Good Warpriests would be into killing Undead, (in which Merciful is a bad option), while many more Lawful Warpriests would be thinking along the lines of "bring them back alive and let the law deal with them", so Ghost Touch would be less desirable.
Ghost Touch is pretty much only designed for attacking undead (and other incorporeal rarities), while Merciful could be something anyone might have a desire to get, it seems much more appropriate for those interested in law and order.
The other thing I was thinking about is that all 4 Alignments offer the appropriate Alignment magical property, (holy, anarchic, etc. . .) AND all of the Alignment Blessings do something similar, but they do not stack. Because Blessing only last 1 Min, and Sacred Weapon only 20 Rounds per day at most, it really seems like they should be allowed to stack. Maybe drop the Blessings damage bonuses to 1d4, but it's another example of how this classes own abilities really compete with each other for use.
Do Warpriests count as Fighters for selecting Fighter only Fats or not? In the official sense only please, (I understand that as written they do not, but are they supposed to)?
Does this ability utilize Positive ad Negative Energy, or is it just untyped healing/harming? It doesn't state the former, meaning that some of the various Feats and Traits will not work with it.
A warpriest who grossly violates the code of conduct required by his god loses all spells and class features, except for his armor, shield, and weapon proficiencies and his bonus feats. Compared to the Ex-Cleric that specifically does loose Deity's Favored Weapon Proficiency, should a Warpriest whose Favored/Focus Weapon is Unarmed Strike or a Proficiency outside of all Simple & Martial Weapons loose that Proficiency?
armor and shield proficiencies and proficiency with simple weapons.
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Mmmm. Much better. But a few stand out issues:
1. Fervor - Replace times per day from needing Charisma to Wisdom to remove MAD.
2. Fervor - Undead get NO saves? Wow, that is going to make some Paladin's very jealous. Especially when Warpriests of Irori run around exploding Vampires with their fists.
3. Put something specifically saying that feat requirements use the War Priest's character level for bonus feast tied to sacred weapons.
That's about it. Otherwise, it's golden.
This revision lets me use a Torch to do lots of damage, correct?
This revision lets me use a Torch to do lots of damage, correct?
Depends on your level, I'd imagine. But I'm quite sure Alchemist's fire is a weapon. There's some interesting stuff going on there, if we allow warpriests to throw their focus weapon.
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Considering 20th level cleric can basically do whatever they want (Miracle), teleport to another planet (interplanetary teleport), starve entire population/nations (Scorched Earth)...the aspect of war capstone for the warpriest could use some work.
Personally I would say that a spell like ability miracle 1/day would be awesome but might be a little too strong, but very fitting for a priest who dedicated their life to fight for their god. If not miracle, something that other classes cannot do would be fun:
-Take an additional full round action once per day or whatever.
-Weapon of the God: Essentially double the effective enhancement bonuses granting him access to many new abilities for his weapon. The weapon can bypass any DR.
Etc...just suggestions.
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2. Fervor - Undead get NO saves? Wow, that is going to make some Paladin's very jealous. Especially when Warpriests of Irori run around exploding Vampires with their fists.
"Lay On Hands (Su): Alternatively, a paladin can use this healing power to deal damage to undead creatures, dealing 1d6 points of damage for every two levels the paladin possesses. Using lay on hands in this way requires a successful melee touch attack and doesn’t provoke an attack of opportunity. Undead do not receive a saving throw against this damage."
Why? Paladins are much better at it, do not have to split this between Wis and Cha needs, and can also Smite with it.