...Right up until you hit level 8 and you need to give up your iterative attacks to get that extra to-hit and Xd6 damage. At which point it's no longer an issue, if it even was in the first place.
And it precludes TWFing, Sword and Board (with shield bashes), and archery as well. The Investigator currently would be the most limited combat style class in the game if he wanted to use his class abilities with that change. For the most part, anyway (renew once very 2 rounds).
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No. Not at all. It was a shot at giving something different, within the same vein, but something that people wanted.
Personally, I would rather keep a version of studied strike. I think it is interesting.
I am leaning toward these three options right now.
1) Make it a move action to start, and keep it so you can only use it on the same target once every 24 hours. Increase the duration to Int modifier.
2) Keep it a standard, and remove the 24 hour prohibition. Increase the duration to Int modifier.
3) Go back to sneak attack with a 1/3 level increase (to a maximum of 6d6 at 18th).
Comments, questionnaire, and playtest feedback all told us that the sneak attack progression it had in the last iteration was too much. It was fairly universal. So there is where we are sitting right now.
Stephen, it would be great if you could give some kind of context as to where you see the Investigator's combat ability sitting. Should it be just below the rogue? How far down on the totem pole should they be?
For option 2, if you were playing at, say, 16th level and getting +7d6 damage to one attack every second round (and only being able to attack every second round), does that seem like a character you'd want to play?
::sigh::
If we make it a move action, and get rid of the 24 hour prohibition, as long as you stand still (or even if you don't when you investigator talent out of it) you will basically be getting the bonus to attacks and damage every round without any concern for positioning.
The design team thought that was too good, in general, but particularly with the faster precision bonus progression.
Too good in comparison to what? I'm interested as to what sort of benchmark the Investigator's combat ability is being measured against.
What if instead of extra damage, Studied Strike applied a Dirty Trick debuff?
I'd still like to see the action economy improved, but that would seem more flavorful, more useful, and less competitive with the Rogue all in one shot.
I like this. I like this a lot.
If a Studied Strike hits, you should be able to apply a Dirty Trick debuff instead of the damage bonus. No CMB check because that means past 8th level the ability goes into retirement. The target can still take a move action to negate the condition.
What if instead of extra damage, Studied Strike applied a Dirty Trick debuff?
I'd still like to see the action economy improved, but that would seem more flavorful, more useful, and less competitive with the Rogue all in one shot.
I like this. I like this a lot.
If a Studied Strike hits, you should be able to apply a Dirty Trick debuff instead of the damage bonus. No CMB check because that means past 8th level the ability goes into retirement. The target can still take a move action to negate the condition.
Or the Investigator can spend an Inspiration point to make it cost a Standard to remove?
He was Joking
And as you may have noticed, I removed my post once I noticed there had been already discussion about it.
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I'm getting the impression that this is just a way to convince people that sneak attack was better.No. Not at all. It was a shot at giving something different, within the same vein, but something that people wanted.
Personally, I would rather keep a version of studied strike. I think it is interesting.
I am leaning toward these three options right now.
1) Make it a move action to start, and keep it so you can only use it on the same target once every 24 hours. Increase the duration to Int modifier.
2) Keep it a standard, and remove the 24 hour prohibition. Increase the duration to Int modifier.
3) Go back to sneak attack with a 1/3 level increase (to a maximum of 6d6 at 18th).
Comments, questionnaire, and playtest feedback all told us that the sneak attack progression it had in the last iteration was too much. It was fairly universal. So there is where we are sitting right now.
Long as it is changed so a charater can get it on ranged attacks any of them would be fine really.
Initial Thoughts:
Hot damn, this class is cool. This class is really, really cool. This class is so cool that I'm disappointed that I can't pick up Studied Strike or Studied Combat from additional classes.
This class is really, really cool. Really. I adore this class. I need to test it out, but right now I can't come up with any possible ways that this class could be better. Its not ridiculously powerful, but it fills a niche that the game has been long lacking: a true Intelligence-based combatant.
Did I mention how much I like this class?
Would love some CMB help instead of damage. Seems much more suitable to the class.
Stephen, it would be great if you could give some kind of context as to where you see the Investigator's combat ability sitting. Should it be just below the rogue? How far down on the totem pole should they be?
For option 2, if you were playing at, say, 16th level and getting +7d6 damage to one attack every second round (and only being able to attack every second round), does that seem like a character you'd want to play?
It matters what you mean by combat ability. Constant ability to deal damage in melee? The ability to support a party and be fun and interesting to play. Given the amount of tricks this guy has in his arsenal (inspiration, alchemy, poison lore) I think I would love playing this class.
I'd rather look at this class as a whole, rather than just damage per round. As far as damage per round goes...yeah, he should not be as good as a rogue. And he wasn't in the first iteration, but he was a little better than he should have been.
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Long as it is changed so a charater can get it on ranged attacks any of them would be fine really.
You have made this point multiple times. We get it. It is noted. Thank you.
Initial Thoughts:
Hot damn, this class is cool. This class is really, really cool. This class is so cool that I'm disappointed that I can't pick up Studied Strike or Studied Combat from additional classes.
This class is really, really cool. Really. I adore this class. I need to test it out, but right now I can't come up with any possible ways that this class could be better. Its not ridiculously powerful, but it fills a niche that the game has been long lacking: a true Intelligence-based combatant.
Did I mention how much I like this class?
I disagree. The lore warden, duelist & student of war have been doing the int-warrior for a while. And have been quite effective.
Alrighty my jaw is hitting the floor that you suggest that this is usable, so I'm going to assume I'm missing something.
7d6 once a round a 19th level? so over 2 rounds you get one standard action with an accuracy buff, and one full round of regular non damage buffed attacks and a single 7d6 damage buff?.
I do consider myself a bit of a power gamer so I think my standards for damage output are high, but I don't even have a player at my table that would consider that as anything other than a virtually useless contribution to the fight.
As something to add actual use to the conversation though, I do really like the idea of createing buff's and debuffs as a way of createing a meaning impact on the battle instead of more damage.
Well, I was actually working under the assumption that we were already making it a move action and increasing the duration to INT mod rather than half... so you'd still be able to use studied strike the first round.
and i wasn't really suggesting that that would fix the class so much as it was more in line with the power level of some of the poorer archetypes whereas the ability as it stands makes me cry.
EDIT: though on second thought if you're going to limit it that much it should just be normal progression.
Aw I see what you were going for , still making 1 attack a round at 1d6+7+7d6 at 19th level is unimpressive, but I think I'm just going to have to bow out of the discussion and just accept that this class is never going to be for me, it's more of a roleplaying only class.
Post removed. Please keep the discussion constructive.
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Ouch. Not as good as a Rogue in dealing damage. Thats a pretty harsh limit.
I would like to further add in my support for a debuff oriented Studied Strike. That would amplify his role as "supporting a party."
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A solution may be to simply get rid of Studied Strike, keep Studied Attack (with a better activation time than a standard, please, and updating Quick Study to swift/free), but expand the attack bonus to damage as well and not remove the bonus after the first attack, i.e. you study your target and then you get your bonuses until the enemy is down. Keep the damage as precision damage so that it is not multiplied on critical hits and so on.
Reducing the damage bonus from 1d6 per 2 levels to half the Investigator level overall keeps the total damage output of the class below the Rogue, but still would provide reliable damage, which can be boosted with things like the mutagen. It may even be an interesting idea to tone down the to-hit bonus, because half your Investigator level adds up to a lot later on for a 3/4 BAB class.
When I look back at the Sherlock Holmes movies with Robert Downey Jr., he planned out all his attacks, not just the first one. So keeping the damage bonus for the entire fight would keep fidelity to the movies, too.
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Also we potentially run into 4th ed syndrome. Where everything has some sort of debuff tagged up on it and the poor GM has to figure out a way to keep track of the fact that badguy 1, 2, and 3 are at -2 to hit and damage for 2, 3, and 5 rounds respectively. Badguy 2 and 3 and 6 are stunned for 2, 1, and 1 rounds. Badguy 3, and 4 have made their saves which makes them unable to be Dazzled for 2, and 3 rounds. Finally badguys 1, 2, 4, and 5 have all been given a -3 to ability checks and AC for 1, 3, and 2 rounds.
That's a mess.
That already happens (at least in my games), and the solution is called a dry-erase board
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I'm fine with hitting like a wet noodle if my wet noodle causes the foes to be sickened.
Also, condition card decks. Think of the cross-sales, stephen!
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I, too, support making debuffs the focus of Studied Strike instead of damage. Have it grant full BAB against one target while active, with the 1/2 level bonus going to CMB specifically. Instead of free action precision damage on a hit, make it free action no-provoke maneuvers after a hit, maybe expanding to more than one attack at higher levels.
Holmes wasn't going around shanking guys or cutting off heads with his monologue-fight skills, he was blinding and deafening and sickening and silencing them. The final fight of the second movie consisted of a dirty trick blind, a grapple, and a reposition; no damage involved.
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I'm fine with hitting like a wet noodle if my wet noodle causes the foes to be sickened.
I think I'd rather hit with a bit more fortitude than a wet noodle (like the Investigator would in my proposal for Studied Attack) and have a chance to inflict a status effect, although not a crippling one. There are way too many things already which destroy the already poor action economy of opponents. ^^
I, too, support making debuffs the focus of Studied Strike instead of damage. Have it grant full BAB against one target while active, with the 1/2 level bonus going to CMB specifically. Instead of free action precision damage on a hit, make it free action no-provoke maneuvers after a hit, maybe expanding to more than one attack at higher levels.
Holmes wasn't going around shanking guys or cutting off heads with his monologue-fight skills, he was blinding and deafening and sickening and silencing them. The final fight of the second movie consisted of a dirty trick blind, a grapple, and a reposition; no damage involved.
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Ouch. Not as good as a Rogue in dealing damage. Thats a pretty harsh limit.
I would like to further add in my support for a debuff oriented Studied Strike. That would amplify his role as "supporting a party."
The problem with making the Investigator a debuffing class is that it will likely never hold up to what the casters can do.
So you hit one target and give it a couple -2's. It isn't particularly impressive when a caster could, just as easily, give -2's to or completely disable an entire swath.
I'd rather the Investigator be subpar at debuffs compared to a Wizard than be subpar at damage compared to a Rogue. Both because it feels much more thematic to me and I'd rather have the potential of the class be capped compared to debuffing god-wizards, rather than the often less-than-stellar combat rogue.
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It matters what you mean by combat ability. Constant ability to deal damage in melee? The ability to support a party and be fun and interesting to play. Given the amount of tricks this guy has in his arsenal (inspiration, alchemy, poison lore) I think I would love playing this class.
I'd rather look at this class as a whole, rather than just damage per round. As far as damage per round goes...yeah, he should not be as good as a rogue. And he wasn't in the first iteration, but he was a little better than he should have been.
Oh, I'm not disputing the Investigator's utility. Alchemy/Extracts and Inspiration are fantastic and flavourful abilities that provide a lot of out-of-combat utility and a bit of in-combat as well. Poison Lore is a touch niche, but means that the Investigator is king in that realm if it ever comes up.
However, let's not deceive ourselves. This is Pathfinder. Combat is the focus of the system. I've played and run APs, and I play and GM plenty of PFS. Even from my limited experience I'd say at least 1/2 of your time spend playing Pathfinder - at least, when using published PF content - will be spent in combat.
It's not really about damage per round - although that's definitely what some forum-goers will be analysing any class on - but it's about the ability to contribute effectively in a combat situation. It's not fun to play a class where all your efforts are constantly overshadowed by the people playing classes who are designed to be much more effective than they are in combat.
EDIT: Note, contributing doesn't have to equal damage, it can be - as many posters have suggested - inflicting debuffs on your foes. But every class should be able to have a noticeable effect on the battlefield, whether that's killing your enemies, controlling their movement, temporarily putting them out of the fight, or just hindering their ability to kill you. If a class can't do any of those things then it's not a very good class for playing Pathfinder with.
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I'm getting the impression that this is just a way to convince people that sneak attack was better.No. Not at all. It was a shot at giving something different, within the same vein, but something that people wanted.
Personally, I would rather keep a version of studied strike. I think it is interesting.
I am leaning toward these three options right now.
1) Make it a move action to start, and keep it so you can only use it on the same target once every 24 hours. Increase the duration to Int modifier.
2) Keep it a standard, and remove the 24 hour prohibition. Increase the duration to Int modifier.
3) Go back to sneak attack with a 1/3 level increase (to a maximum of 6d6 at 18th).
Comments, questionnaire, and playtest feedback all told us that the sneak attack progression it had in the last iteration was too much. It was fairly universal. So there is where we are sitting right now.
if i had to choose one of these options, and only from these options, i would go with option 2.
I would say, err on the side of making the ability usable more often, but to less effect. for instance, don't cripple its action economy to give it 9d6 once every other turn. I would much rather get 5d6 or 6d6 at least once per turn (even only once per turn) than 9d6 every other turn. Especially if it came with a bonus to hit!
I like the way Rite Publishing's Vicious Opportunist Rogue Archetype works, especially when coupled with the debuff-related sneak attack feats.
I really think that debuffs are the way to go vice just d6s of damage. That will help people stop thinking about it being more combat damage and more combat support. I do see the merit in the argument that all those debuffs are a lot to keep track of, but certainly no worse than a 1st-2nd level sorceror who prepared only Color Spray. It isn't like the Investigator is going to be applying debuffs to big areas of effect.
Also, I would like to cast my vote in with the Investigator being able to use his abilities at range.
I do recommend that switch the studied combat/strike to move action to activate and int modifier in rounds duration. And removing 24 hour limitation.
with quick study giving the opportunity to have it swift action later.
Otherwise that's pretty nice ability. Given that investigator is essentially a rogue with "spells" I don't think it's that bad to lack rogue-ish massive damage output per se. It could start at lvl 1 and scale to +2d6 at level 4, and +1d6 every third level thereafter.
That way it would mesh with alchemist's bomb mixed with rogue's sneak attack mechanically, but less effectively in the long run, for the sake of balance.
(Game of Shadows spoilers)
Again, taking out the "1d6 per 2 level" mechanic completely and replacing it with a steady "1/2 Investigator level" damage bonus on all Studied Attacks until the end of the fight might be a more elegant solution. It makes the ability reliable, but worse in damage output than the Rogue.
(Game of Shadows spoilers)** spoiler omitted **
Yet that is a bit impractical for an ongoing campaign. You can't wait for the Investigator to return days later when you are storming a castle. ;)
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For what it's worth, during my playtest of the investigator class, realizing I could use Inspiration for free on a necessary skill check was about as good a feeling as when I get a critical hit with other characters.
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You must also take into account that simply by making it once a round for damage , you've already significantly reduced the damage output.
Rogue can sneak attack on every hit of the round, This guy is once per round per activation, I don't think you need to worry about him outshining a rogue
Hmmm. Well given the first hour of comments, my inclination right now is to change it back to sneak attack with a every three level progression.
Well, guess I'll pee on the bonfire then.
The ability itself is certainly a flavorful and interesting idea. I honestly like it from the perspective of a guy who takes a moment to study his target and then wade in.
Buttttt.
From a pure mechanics perspective it just seems really unfortunate to use.
Let's elaborate.
We'll throw together a 4th level guy here expecting to use Studied Combat a lot.
Str: 12+1 = 13
Dex: 14
Con: 14
Int: 16+2 = 18
Wis: 12
Cha: 7
BAB: +3
Talents: Minor Magic (Detect Magic)
Inspiration Pool: 6
Feats: 1:Weapon Finnesse H:Arcane Strike 3:Weapon Focus (Rapier)
So not too bad on the to hit front. A +1 rapier is easy to grab here and will net us a +7 Attack with 1d6+2 damage with another +1 from arcane strike.
If we spend a standard action to use studied strike we earn a +2 insight bonus to attack against one target for 1 round (as one was spent using studied combat) and then you're probably going to use studied strike (you have to) for 1d6 damage.
So a standard action nets you +2 to attack and +1d6 damage for one attack (because we can't use multiple attacks heres). We can't use the ability again on the target for 24 hours.
If we look at the extracts suddenly things look far more skewed away from the ability. Cat's Grace would net us +2 to attack for four minutes. Bull's Strength would give us +2 damage for 4 minutes (in addition to +2 attack on a Longspear/Cestus build.)
Mutagen, if we took it, would grant us +4 Dexterity or Strength and a boosted armor class for 40 minutes. We can make a new one with an hours work.
Just within this class we've found two abilities that already blow studied combat in terms of returns.
Now later one we can gain much higher bonuses but I feel the duration and action cost is such that I'd be better off being a support investigator and utilize Inspirational Expertise.
My thoughts on it in terms of future fixing
I don't want sneak attack back. I like this one but it should be more fun and fluid to use. Why does a twenty int investigator suddenly forget to fight a target after taking the time to think about him after 2 rounds? Why can't he remember what he did before until the next day?
We can nerf the attack bonus down to either being based on Int or down to maybe 1/3 class level.
Damage too can be the same. That makes it easier to understand and has fewer words in the ability. It opens up the possibility of an intelligence based investigator being a pretty decent combatant.
Then, just have it last indefinitely on the target until it's dead or we use it again on a new target.
Studied strike can be based on inspiration. Allow me to add Inspiration to my damage rolls. And don't have it turn off studied combat.
If we keep it at 4th level that makes dipping less interesting particularly if we choose to scale it by adding in some debuffs here and there.
How does that sound?
I like the new direction that studied strike went for.
However, I see no reason that it would only affect a target once every 24 hours.
Also, being able to do it at range would be immensely helpful, especially with the activation time hindrances.
In the end, I just think it needs to be easier to use. Perhaps a hit to the damage would be warranted for this but I think people would take and ability that is easier to use that is less powerful over one that is more powerful but harder to implement.
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For what it's worth, during my playtest of the investigator class, realizing I could use Inspiration for free on a necessary skill check was about as good a feeling as when I get a critical hit with other characters.
Yeah, I ended up spending both of my talents (level 5 character) to get Expanded Inspiration and Underworld Inspiration, and we were going through a dungeon crawl for the first session. I was a bit of a spotlight hog for most of the session as it was "make a knowledge check" "find traps/disable traps" "unlock doors/chests" and other such skill stuff.
You must also take into account that simply by making it once a round for damage , you've already significantly reduced the damage output.
Rogue can sneak attack on every hit of the round, This guy is once per round per activation, I don't think you need to worry about him outshining a rogue
Exactly.
To be honest, I was almost happy when considering a once-a-round limit, because, hey, finally an ability that interacts favourably with Spring Attack (that is, if it had a swift action activate).
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I'm not really disagreeing with the overall tenor of the feedback so far, but I do feel I should point out that a 4th level investigator could use studied strike as written with an Int of just 14 - if he could get the cognatogen alchemist discovery.
On a related note, why in the world doesn't the investigator get cognatogen as a possible discovery?!
I'm not really disagreeing with the overall tenor of the feedback so far, but I do feel I should point out that a 4th level investigator could use studied strike as written with an Int of just 14 - if he could get the cognatogen alchemist discovery.
On a related note, why in the world doesn't the investigator get cognatogen as a possible discovery?!
He doesn't get any of the mutation or mutagen type discoveries. Cognatogen itself deals strength damage too, so you end up losing to gain which isn't too hot.
Agreed, this is a pretty brutal task to take on when nobody really ends up happy lol. But props for trying.
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He doesn't get any of the mutation or mutagen type discoveries. Cognatogen itself deals strength damage too, so you end up losing to gain which isn't too hot.I'm not really disagreeing with the overall tenor of the feedback so far, but I do feel I should point out that a 4th level investigator could use studied strike as written with an Int of just 14 - if he could get the cognatogen alchemist discovery.
On a related note, why in the world doesn't the investigator get cognatogen as a possible discovery?!
actually, you can take mutagen using the "Alchemist Discovery" investigator talent. Yet, for some reason, Cognatogen is not on the list of discoveries he can take using that talent, which seems like an oversight.
actually, you can take mutagen using the "Alchemist Discovery" investigator talent. Yet, for some reason, Cognatogen is not on the list of discoveries he can take using that talent, which seems like an oversight.He doesn't get any of the mutation or mutagen type discoveries. Cognatogen itself deals strength damage too, so you end up losing to gain which isn't too hot.I'm not really disagreeing with the overall tenor of the feedback so far, but I do feel I should point out that a 4th level investigator could use studied strike as written with an Int of just 14 - if he could get the cognatogen alchemist discovery.
On a related note, why in the world doesn't the investigator get cognatogen as a possible discovery?!
Oh hey it is! Overlooked it.
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He doesn't get any of the mutation or mutagen type discoveries. Cognatogen itself deals strength damage too, so you end up losing to gain which isn't too hot.I'm not really disagreeing with the overall tenor of the feedback so far, but I do feel I should point out that a 4th level investigator could use studied strike as written with an Int of just 14 - if he could get the cognatogen alchemist discovery.
On a related note, why in the world doesn't the investigator get cognatogen as a possible discovery?!
Mutagen is on the discovery list.
It shouldn't be.
The class makes a lot more sense once you realize that all the alchemical things are stand ins for the magical world of opium.
Also, the investigator is far better at the skill monkey side of things, so I'm fine with them being worse at dealing damage than a rogue.
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As of right now, this is correct. Don't dump Int, and try not to take Int damage. :)Is there any chance you can comment on the duration of it?
As Studied Combat is worded currently, it does nothing without Int of at least 18, because effects that last 1 round end at the beginning of investigator's next turn.
Could Studied Strike maybe last just 1 round longer? Its hard for a melee class to come up enough points for an 17 or 18 INT at 1st level and otherwise you are locked in to taking Quick Study at 5th so you can use studied combat at all. Are there any other classes that are required to have an 18 ability score to be able to use a class ability at all?
I was really excited about starting a PFS investigator this Wednesday (12-11}. Now I am reworking him as a slayer.
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yeah, but in exchange for what is already considered the relatively poor damage output of a rogue some other sort of combat utility would be great. hence the call for some sort of debilitating strike.