Lead Designer
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This thread is for discussing the REVISED version of the Hunter. It should be used as a central location for feedback on the class as a whole. Discussion on specific topics and rules should receive their own individual thread in this forum.
Once you have had a chance to playtest the revised version, please be sure to update your survey results, which can be found HERE
Keep it civil and polite folks. Remember we are all here to make this book the best it can be.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
So, err. I'm having a hard time seeing any real changes here.
Near as I can tell the extent of the changes:
-More uses of Animal Focus (but doesn't improve any of them)
-Nature training
And that's really it (I don't count new Feats as an actual change to the class). For one of the most complained about classes, that seems pretty odd.
Oooh, I DID miss that. That is kinda neat.
Okay then, I can see that being pretty good at high levels. A Pseudo-Controlled Rage for your Companion. I like it.
I can see the Bull one being by far the most common. IME the main problem with an Animal Companion is its ability to hit a target.
May need to build a Hunter now, see how it works.
Interesting changes. Looking forward to playtesting the revised version.
Thanks for the preview of the new Teamwork Feats. Is there any plan of inclusing new Tricks in the finished Guide? I ask as I don't believe the Flank trick will allow a character to order an animal companion to attack a target in a manner which doesn't provide cover (ala Coordinated Shot).
... or am I misreading the Precise Companion ability and the companion no longer provides cover?
-TimD
TimD: The companion no longer provides cover, at least as far as the slayer is concerned, so there's no need to create a new trick for that.
Coordinated shot provides an attack bonus (it's sort of like flanking).
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I'd really like to see the Animal Aspects grant any other bonus than enhancement as it wont stack with the most common form Ability bonuses making it a fairly major class bonus that is easily outgrown.
We don't want them to stack with belts and such. That's why they're enhancement bonuses. If you have a Dex belt, don't apply the Dex buff to yourself; you have nine other buffs to choose from.
I'd still like to see the pet gain static bonuses as the Hunter levels up. The hunter is giving up a lot compared to a druid to make the pet a central class feature and the pet isn't meaningfully different.
It does get a static buff: the hunter picks one animal focus to apply to the animal at all times, and can switch out that buff as a swift action. If you decide to pick the Strength buff and never swap it, that's a static +2 to Str from level 1–7, +4 from level 8–14, and +6 from level 15–20. That's a free 4,000 gp, 16,000 gp, or 36,000 gp magic item for your animal companion, plus more because you can instantly change it from a Strength bonus to a Dex bonus or Con bonus, or specific bonuses on skills.
TimD: The companion no longer provides cover, at least as far as the slayer is concerned, so there's no need to create a new trick for that.
Thanks, Sean.
I was reading that as removing the -4 penalty for the target being in melee penalty (per the shooting targets in melee rules), not the -4 penalty for shooting through cover provided by combatants (per the cover rules).-TimD
Having 9 other buffs is all well and good but it keeps the same problem as the first iteration...namely that none of them are very good.
The only ones I can really see myself taking semi-regularly are Wolf and Falcon.
Initial Thoughts:
Precise Companion is pretty terrible. Its like having Precise Shot without having enough of Precise Shot. Considering this is the level that the Hunter would have gotten a Combat Style Feat if he had stayed a Ranger, why not just give the hunter Precise Shot?
Track is delusional; it appears to think it is the wild empathy class feature.
New Teamwork Feats are nice. After Jason's interview, I was worried that they would all specifically require an animal companion. The language is muddy, but the overall concept is great.
Overall, I like this class. I like it a lot more then I thought it was going to, but I definitely need to build and play a few. Archery is a very feat-heavy weapon style and I am skeptical that the Hunter will have access to enough feats to be competitive.
The problem is that it is a bonus that becomes obsolete.
So I get my Tiger a belt of physical perfection, same as the Druid does.
Then switch the buff to a skill, or snake (hooray AOO attack bonus!), or land speed, or scent. "I have an item that accomplishes this" is not a fault of the class, any more than "I'm a monk with a +5 lawful adamantine kama, so my ki strike ability is now obsolete" is a real problem.
Once the big stats are taken care of the difference between the Tiger of Druid Dave and Hunter Hal become practically negligible.
And if the druid wants to spend all that gold on her animal companion so it's comparable to the hunter's companion, that's fine. It's okay that you can take class X and build a comparable character to one with class Y. It's okay that you can do that. Just as it's okay if a druid wants to take the right selection of feats, traits, spells, and magic items to be able to heal about as well as a cleric. That's okay.
Unrelated, but while you're here: Any chance on non-hunter Teamwork feats? I enjoy the Inquisitor class and am always looking forward to more.
There will be teamwork feats in this book usable by other classes.
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The problem is that it is a bonus that becomes obsolete.
So I get my Tiger a belt of physical perfection, same as the Druid does.
So now what? My Tiger is prettier than his is? So what?
[snark]
I didn't realize that the game required all rangers to pick up the exact same magic items.[/snark]
Why couldn't you grab a physical prowess belt (enhancement to two scores) and give that to your animal companion instead? And save money. Or better still, use the money you saved alongside the item creation rules and give that belt of physical prowess another cool magical ability that you wouldn't have been able to afford otherwise? There's an entire book on doing that.
Unrelated, but while you're here: Any chance on non-hunter Teamwork feats? I enjoy the Inquisitor class and am always looking forward to more.
None of those teamwork feats have language that says they only apply to animal companions. They all refer to your "ally with this feat," which makes Solo Tactics smile big-time.
TimD: The companion no longer provides cover, at least as far as the slayer is concerned, so there's no need to create a new trick for that.Thanks, Sean.
I was reading that as removing the -4 penalty for the target being in melee penalty (per the shooting targets in melee rules), not the -4 penalty for shooting through cover provided by combatants (per the cover rules).-TimD
Is this actually what Precise Companion is doing? The class feature seems to only be talking about the shooting into melee penalty and doesn't mention cover at all.
Also, is being able to "ignore the AC bonus granted to targets by anything less than total cover" (courtesy of Improved Precise Shot) the same as your animal companion "not providing cover against your ranged attacks against that opponent" (from Coordinated Shot)? Basically, does your pet have to actually not be in your way or is it enough for you to take feats/have class features that let you ignore the fact that he is in your way?
Well, this still looks like a competent class, now a little better. I'd still hope that the Hunter animal companion will be able to get some Familiar abilities, like Empathic Link.
Since the class seems built to appeal to the people who have played a Hunter in World of Warcraft, I still suggest having a female elf as the iconic, drawn in the pose of doing a standing backflip while shooting her bow sideways. :p
Some bonus feats (and spells, like Gravity Bow and so on) for archery would be nice, too. Improved Precise Shot has a +11 BAB requirement, which hurts for a medium BAB class. And, yes, I've noticed that the animal companion is not supposed to give your opponent cover from you. Doesn't mean that the dumb Bloodrager isn't running through your line of fire all nilly-willy, while shouting "MY BLOOD BURNS WITH THE POWAH!".
Clarifying my earlier statement, which mixed up some stuff:
Basically, the precise companion ability is granting the hunter the Precise Shot feat, but only with respect to whether or not her pet provides a –4 penalty for being in melee with the hunter's opponent.
That penalty doesn't have anything to do with cover, cover is a separate thing.
The "shooting into melee" rule gives you a –4 penalty on your attack roll, the "other creature providing cover" rule gives your opponent a +4 bonus to its AC.
Frex, in example 1, an encounter with a Ranger, Orc, and the ranger's Animal:
R ... O A
The Animal isn't providing the Orc +4 cover to AC, but it's still giving the Ranger a –4 penalty to his attack roll.
And in example 2, a similar encounter with a different layout:
R ... A O
the Animal is providing +4 cover to the Orc's armor class and is giving the Ranger a –4 penalty for firing into melee.
Note that in both examples, if you replace the Ranger with a Hunter, the Hunter doesn't have the –4 from firing into melee, because the hunter has precise companion; but in example 2 the Orc would still get the +4 cover bonus to AC from the companion because precise companion doesn't affect cover.
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Initial Thoughts:
Precise Companion is pretty terrible. Its like having Precise Shot without having enough of Precise Shot. Considering this is the level that the Hunter would have gotten a Combat Style Feat if he had stayed a Ranger, why not just give the hunter Precise Shot?
Track is delusional; it appears to think it is the wild empathy class feature.
New Teamwork Feats are nice. After Jason's interview, I was worried that they would all specifically require an animal companion. The language is muddy, but the overall concept is great.
Overall, I like this class. I like it a lot more then I thought it was going to, but I definitely need to build and play a few. Archery is a very feat-heavy weapon style and I am skeptical that the Hunter will have access to enough feats to be competitive.
RE: Archer.
I think it's important that he stays a good but not great archer. Think about it the class has spells and an animal companion, if you were as good an archer as a fighter and Ranger, why would you ever play anything else?
Well, something completely else that got me thinking is woodland stride.
How does that work on a hunter from Osirion, Quadira or the far north?
I don't think them being better archers than Fighters or Rangers is even on the horizon at this point. Compared to Fighters or Rangers they don't have any bonus feats (archery is feat intensive), no bonuses on attack/damage, their 3/4 BaB slows meeting feat prerequisites, and their major feature is having a companion which apparently does still provide cover (and will until you get IPS at 15, 1/4 of the entire game progression after a Ranger).
It doesn't terribly matter to me if the Hunter makes a good archer or not, but becoming too powerful in that regard just doesn't seem like something we need to be worried about at this point.
I really like the direction!
Though I must know.
Is there a possibility you'll allow a second animal aspect to be put on the companion? Possibly something like its BAB counts as its level while attacking only?
Either one of these options would really cement the place a Hunter holds in this game as opposed to a Ranger or Druid.
I don't think them being better archers than Fighters or Rangers is even on the horizon at this point. Compared to Fighters or Rangers they don't have any bonus feats (archery is feat intensive), no bonuses on attack/damage, their 3/4 BaB slows meeting feat prerequisites, and their major feature is having a companion which apparently does still provide cover (and will until you get IPS at 15, 1/4 of the entire game progression after a Ranger).
It doesn't terribly matter to me if the Hunter makes a good archer or not, but becoming too powerful in that regard just doesn't seem like something we need to be worried about at this point.
I can't say I disagree with any of that, but I can see the Devs taking a measured approach with letting out how strong the archery gets. It is after all king of damage dealing. I haven't tested yet, but I am betting from the looks that a small bump here and there may still be in order to ensure you are still hitting with your shots at all levels. Still I think delayed access to multiple shots in a round is important to keeping the Hunter balanced.
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I am a big fan of the current changes, though I am still of the opinion that the animal companion should be moved to the D10 hit die track like the summoner's eidolon. I doubt this would overpower it since the eidolon can be heavily customized and have much bigger stats than an animal companion through the use of evolution points.
I'd really like to see the Animal Aspects grant any other bonus than enhancement as it wont stack with the most common form Ability bonuses making it a fairly major class bonus that is easily outgrown.We don't want them to stack with belts and such. That's why they're enhancement bonuses. If you have a Dex belt, don't apply the Dex buff to yourself; you have nine other buffs to choose from.
I'd still like to see the pet gain static bonuses as the Hunter levels up. The hunter is giving up a lot compared to a druid to make the pet a central class feature and the pet isn't meaningfully different.It does get a static buff: the hunter picks one animal focus to apply to the animal at all times, and can switch out that buff as a swift action. If you decide to pick the Strength buff and never swap it, that's a static +2 to Str from level 1–7, +4 from level 8–14, and +6 from level 15–20. That's a free 4,000 gp, 16,000 gp, or 36,000 gp magic item for your animal companion, plus more because you can instantly change it from a Strength bonus to a Dex bonus or Con bonus, or specific bonuses on skills.The problem is that it is a bonus that becomes obsolete.
So I get my Tiger a belt of physical perfection, same as the Druid does.
So now what? My Tiger is prettier than his is? So what?
Once the big stats are taken care of the difference between the Tiger of Druid Dave and Hunter Hal become practically negligible.
Well, you could save 54,000 gp and just get a +6 belt of physical might, rather than +6 perfection andyou could buy most of a +4 amulet of mighty fists. Or you could pick the speed buff, or you could make the sneaky, or perceptive. I don't understand when people complain when they're given options
I don't know why I'm capitalizing Tiger. Maybe it is Tiger the tiger. I think my point stands and that point is that I don't think the bonuses are enoughHaving said all that: Thanks for clearing up the language in the Hunter section. Much more clear now.
Unrelated, but while you're here: Any chance on non-hunter Teamwork feats? I enjoy the Inquisitor class and am always looking forward to more.
Well, there's nothing to stop coordinated shot working for a luring cavalier or an Inquisitor, it's just been released next to the Hunter.
I'd really like to see the Animal Aspects grant any other bonus than enhancement as it wont stack with the most common form Ability bonuses making it a fairly major class bonus that is easily outgrown.We don't want them to stack with belts and such. That's why they're enhancement bonuses. If you have a Dex belt, don't apply the Dex buff to yourself; you have nine other buffs to choose from.
You're missing the point.
Every class in the game that requires hitting it's opponents has ways to buff it's chance to hit in addition to whatever magical items it acquires (other than the core Rogue, which is widely accepted as awful in combat). This class offers nothing that isn't replaced by an item.So how does a 3/4's BAB class with no bonuses to hit... hit?
I gotta say, for one of the classes with the most problems, there are incredibly few fixes. :(
Dot
I'd really like to see the Animal Aspects grant any other bonus than enhancement as it wont stack with the most common form Ability bonuses making it a fairly major class bonus that is easily outgrown.We don't want them to stack with belts and such. That's why they're enhancement bonuses. If you have a Dex belt, don't apply the Dex buff to yourself; you have nine other buffs to choose from.You're missing the point.
Every class in the game that requires hitting it's opponents has ways to buff it's chance to hit in addition to whatever magical items it acquires (other than the core Rogue, which is widely accepted as awful in combat). This class offers nothing that isn't replaced by an item.
So how does a 3/4's BAB class with no bonuses to hit... hit?
to be fair it's still a full caster and we haven't seen the spell list....it very likely can self buff.
to be fair it's still a full caster and we haven't seen the spell list....it very likely can self buff.Yes you have... it's the full Druid list from 0-6.
And to add to this, because it's the Druid list, the buffs it has access to are going to largely be...
wait for it...
Enhancement bonuses.
to be fair it's still a full caster and we haven't seen the spell list....it very likely can self buff.Yes you have... it's the full Druid list from 0-6.
meh, I didn't recheck that on the update...was hoping for tweaks.....in that vein then, would some love from the ranger list help?
The point being that none of them are particularly good, either. But you made it seem as if I should be grateful that there are even options to begin with, regardless of the quality of those options.
I was trying to point out that even if the enhancement bonuses were in some sense redundant, they gave you more options in terms of gear selection.
And I apologise, and did not intend to say that I thought you sounded ungrateful, I was intending more to express puzzlement.
Well, gear selection for your AC anyway since the duration is so short, but granted. It really is pretty good for the AC.
I'm just saying if this is supposed to be one of the main focuses of the class, the options need to be better, or the duration needs to be longer (for the Hunter himself). I said that last time, and I stand by it.
Falcon, Wolf, and MAYBE Stag are the best of the bunch. And that's only because of all the Animal Focus options, they're the least situational.
And even then, Wolf suffers from the short duration bit (you can't just walk around with Scent up to stop people from sneaking up on you, or even use it to Track without using up all of your minutes, and then some), Falcon ditto (good for a short buff if you need to search one specific area...doesn't help you against ambushes, searching for traps, or any of the more important uses of Perception), and Stag is only useful if you want to be a melee combatant...something the class seems to be discouraged to do with class features that specifically support archery, and only if you start JUUUST out of your normal move speed's reach.
Compare/contrast other minute/level class abilities. The Paladin and Magus can boost their weapon and give them new properties. The Warpriest can boost his armor by a good degree. Stuff like that is worth it.
The Hunter? He gets a small boost on Perception checks. Or Scent within a short distance, or 5/10 feet of extra movement as his BEST options.
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I really like the Animal Focus addition, but the Precise Companion feature confuses me. The original version of this class seemed to favor melee, but now it seems to have jumped to ranged, which I guess was what a lot of people were asking for. I feel like something like an additional +2 bonus to flanking with your animal companion would suit this class feature nicely without being too powerful.
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It's an improvement and yet it is still missing something.
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I still think a few fixes would help this class....
Animal Focus - This could give the Favored Terrain of the Animal to the Hunter, as well as the buff...getting 'in tune' with the animal, so to speak. This gives an excellent reason to use the ones you already have magic items for.
Two Companion Fighting - This is essentially the Two Weapon Fighter Archetype's ability to fight with two weapons called Twin Blades, only in this case, with two people. When both the Hunter and the AC make a full-round action to attack the same target, they each gain a +1 to Hit and damage against that target, starting at 4th Level, and going up every 4 levels to a maximum of +5 at 20th Level.
Hunter's Magic - Starting at 5th Level, the Hunter can select a number of Ranger Spells equal to his Wisdom Modifier to add to his list of Spells available to memorize.
That's just me. YMMV.
Yay- Woodland Stride applies to both Hunter and animal companion!
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I still think a few fixes would help this class....
Animal Focus - This could give the Favored Terrain of the Animal to the Hunter, as well as the buff...getting 'in tune' with the animal, so to speak. This gives an excellent reason to use the ones you already have magic items for.
Two Companion Fighting - This is essentially the Two Weapon Fighter Archetype's ability to fight with two weapons called Twin Blades, only in this case, with two people. When both the Hunter and the AC make a full-round action to attack the same target, they each gain a +1 to Hit and damage against that target, starting at 4th Level, and going up every 4 levels to a maximum of +5 at 20th Level.
Hunter's Magic - Starting at 5th Level, the Hunter can select a number of Ranger Spells equal to his Wisdom Modifier to add to his list of Spells available to memorize.
That's just me. YMMV.
I think your Two Companion Fighting class feature should be improved to a general buff that is applied when both the hunter and companion attack the same target, full attack or not.
Also Hunter's magic is perfect. This is needed.