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I've been playing a cleric for a little over 5 years now, and I believe I've lost my patience. A good majority of the time I play with my group, everyone goes wizard, rogue, fighter, or anything except for cleric. The person stuck healing is usually me, unless I harp on someone enough to the point where they make a character so I can do my own thing. Well, everyone in my group thinks of clerics as healbots, and I'm sick of it. Additionally, if no one wants to be a cleric, no one gets heals, and I end up getting pissed because no one knows simple strategies for mitigating damage.
This last adventure we did involved a battle cleric that I'd built for beating the crap out of things, and I dare say, he's done quite a fine job. When he can't do the job, he buffs someone else so they do their job even better. But when someone gets reduced to 7 health out of 71 and gets pissed at me because I'm not healing them, my question back to them is always, "what did you do wrong to get into this situation?" Tonight, someone got the nerve to say, "We all think you're a worthless cleric because you can't keep anyone alive." Bare in mind, I've been healing 7 out of the 12 campaigns we've run into, and I've pulled stuff literally out of no where to keep them alive.
I love being the go to guy that everyone knows can heal and heal well, but looking at the Pathfinder Cleric and the options a cleric has for combat, I realized really quickly that a cleric that isn't a bandaid is a heck of a lot more useful than one who is.
How do I prove to my group that a battle cleric is more useful than a bandaid?
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You're already on the right track. Beating up bad guys faster (battle cleric) means the party takes less damage. That's better than healing, as it is proactive, not reactive. If your party can't figure out how to do things to keep themselves intact, that is their own decision, not yours. If taking damage isn't fun for them, then they can learn to do things so that they aren't as exposed to it. They are currently telling you to do things so they can have fun, but not doing things so you can have fun. Reciprocation lacking, it's time for some education.
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Keeping the party alive is the party's job, not a single character's.
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I don't think your problem is proving that a Cleric can do more than heal.
Your problem is denying healing to somebody who got hurt, and then telling them it was their fault they got hurt.
Like it or not, battle Cleric or not, you have healing powers. When one of your party is near death, and you have the power to fix that, essentially telling them "F$++ off, next time don't get hit lol" isn't going to go over well.
Just my 2 cents there bruv.
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My first game with my new cleric. I sit down at the table every one starts talking about what they can do. I start with "I can't channel. And if your looking for some one to heal you. Buy a wand I'll get to you before you die maybe. I made a cleric to have fun playing not be a heal bot. If you think you will need a heal bot feel free to make one. I made a offensive casting cleric. With a archetype that gives up channel."
Tell them to purchase healing potions so they can heal themselves.
Since you have been playing the healer role for so long that has become the expectation of your group, and it will take some time to overcome that. I do not know the maturity level of the people you play with, but they should understand that you want to play something different.
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You could show them the math. What you could do by healing them, and what you could do otherwise.
Take some of your most effective attacks/spells, figure out the chance you have to hit enemies of your party level then multiply that by the damage you would do on average.
Example:
My aasimar cleric Mitriël could can do 3d6 (10.5 average) fire damage with his burning hands spell with a DC of 15. According to the monster creation section an average good save at CR 3 would be +6, and a poor save would be +2 for an average of +4. A +4 means they would fail on a 10 or lower or half of the time.
Failed save: 0.5x10.5=5.25
Save made: 0.5x0.5x10.5=2.625
For a total of 7.875, without adding in tougher stuff like evasion. Compare this with the average 12 hitpoints he'd heal with cure moderate wounds and you'll find that Mitriël would be more effective if his burning hands would include 2 or more targets.
Then the other players will point out that healing is cheaper than raise dead, but that's another story.
Edit: Though it doesn't hurt to keep a wand of cure light wounds ready for after the encounter.
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I would advise using your healing powers in ways that encourage the other PCs to improve their tactics and behaviors.
Withholding healing with good IC reasons is a VERY powerful tool and full of opportunities for great roleplay.
If needed, maybe the GM can play the part of your deity and stop answering your pleas for magical healing if he feels the target is unworthy.
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I dont tell the other players I am playing a cleric. I RP my intro and describe myself in Bulky dwarf in plate with a shield, and a spiked mace (For tripping of course).
The players then assume they have no cleric and get potions and wands of CLW. I then play the character like a fighter tank until undead show up or someone gets pwnt, then I break out hte channel or heals and save the day.
I have played a Cleric for a combined 20 levels or so and I have healed during battle less than 5 times.
I dont play a healer like an MMO, just spamming heals, I dont think Pathfinder is built to maintain that kind of healing uptime.
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When i play a cleric i make sure to mention whom im a cleric of. If Healing seems like something i might be into, great. If Healing is a backpage to furthering my gods ethos, unlucky other PC's. If they dont like it i suggest they start praying to other gods... namely mine.
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It sounds like their problem is that they are playing their characters with the expectation that they will have an NPC waiting on them hand and foot.
You are a player, not an NPC, and you are there to have fun, not sit there so they can have all the fun.
My suggestion is to talk to them about their tactics, and suggest that they stop playing so recklessly that they are constantly in need of a healbot to begin with. That sort of mentality tends to only be fun for that individual anyway, and remind them that you didn't have to play a Cleric at all, and ask what they would have done in that case? Jut died for being stupid?
The truth is that a Battle Cleric that only heals outside of combat or on the occasion that someone is getting close to dying/dropping is much, much more useful that one that just sits there and heals damage as it comes. The first is an active party member that is reducing the overall damage and threat before it becomes an issue while the latter is not being an active party member and fighting an uphill battle.
I would suggest that you talk to them about the common PFS organized play tactic. In PFS, the idea is that you often do not know who you will party with, and you might not have a character that is a healer at all. So most people's first purchase is a wand of CLW, which they either wear around their neck or hand over to a character that can use it, and ask that in dire need or after combat that character use their own wand to heal them, (so the expense is 100% on that player being healed, and it usually does not eat into your action economy).
Now, that doesn't mean you can use a Channel Energy here and there to cut back on the wand use and heal everyone, or that if a monster got lucky and critted with an axe or scythe you are not going to heal them.
I made a offensive casting cleric. With a archetype that gives up channel."It's early, but what Archtype gives up Channel?
Divine Strategist does for one.
Can be hard to do much to prove to people that you are more than a healbot. I remember some time ago I played a wizard and the group thought I never did anything even though I ended encounters in a single spell and so on, because I was using summoning/buffing to do so. Good thing is you don't really need a healer so long as you have a heal stick, and there are even ways to heal in combat, but unfortunately other people's perceptions are just hard to change. Not really sure how to change them, but I know when I ran into that problem I tried my best to have fun anyway. Maybe eventually they'll realize the guy running around super buffed and ripping people in two is good at more than healing.
I made a offensive casting cleric. With a archetype that gives up channel."It's early, but what Archtype gives up Channel?
Forgemaster and Divine Strategist both give it up entirely. Like most of the cleric archetypes their value is debatable and they still suffer from clerics lack of class features.
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I think there's a pretty huge difference between "Sorry bro, I don't have Channel" and "Sorry bro, I know you're dying and shit but I really don't feel like healing you right now because reasons".
Feel free to not be a healbot, and rightfully so, but that still just bugs me. It's like watching your best friend burn to death while you have a water hose in your hand, already turned on. Not cool.
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I dont tell the other players I am playing a cleric. I RP my intro and describe myself in Bulky dwarf in plate with a shield, and a spiked mace (For tripping of course).
The players then assume they have no cleric and get potions and wands of CLW. I then play the character like a fighter tank until undead show up or someone gets pwnt, then I break out hte channel or heals and save the day.
I have played a Cleric for a combined 20 levels or so and I have healed during battle less than 5 times.
I dont play a healer like an MMO, just spamming heals, I dont think Pathfinder is built to maintain that kind of healing uptime.
What were the reactions of the other players when they discovered the trick ?
Channel negative energy and spontaneously cast inflict spells. You can't be expected to spend your action in combat healing if you don't have any healing spells prepared.
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It's always funny when the person unwilling to play the helpful class accuses the person who *is* willing that they're not being generous enough.
Healing is a secondary concern at best. The game plays just fine without a "healer".
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Healing is a secondary concern at best. The game plays just fine without a "healer".
MEL, that may be your experience, but it is NOT an absolute rule.
I played a few low-level modules with my Negative-energy Cleric of Pharasma, 2 combat Rogues and a Dwarf Fighter. With no access to wands of CLW, we were STARVING for healing. And it greatly reinforced the 15-minutes day of adventuring style which is definitely not how we like to play :-(
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What he means is that your NE Cleric and the two Rogues all had some ability to heal, as do the vast majority of classes, (Bards, Witches, Wizards, etc. . ., basically anyone that can use a Wand of CLW, Infernal Healing, or has the option to UMD), so a dedicated healer is not required.
There is also the option to run away or to use tactics (some times a least) to minimize damage such as Combat Expertise, Fighting Defensively, or Acrobatics.
Sometimes things are completely out of the players hands, and if the DM refused to allow you to buy or find a wand of CLWs is one thing. If on the other hand every single player found it a wiser decision to instead spend all their moneys on the next cool sword, shield, and armor, and couldn't be bothered to chip in for a few potions or a wand, that's something completely different. They chose to be starved for healing, but had plenty of opportunity to rectify that.
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I made a scythe-weilding,LE tiefling cleric with Death and Artiface domains- esentially a Phyrexian or Cryxian (depending which other game you play, mwahaha...). Great damage dealing reanimator who also healed a bit. Klyfe Doomsayer, a.k.k. "Doctor" Klyfe.
"I recommend...AMPUTATION!"
No offense OP, but I feel like you're telling your fellow players "I wouldn't piss on you, if you were on fire."
By all means I'm not implying you should be a band aid. But, at the same time wouldn't it also be nice (and not too troublesome) to be able to cast (either spontaneously or prepare if you're evil) just a couple healing spells if SHTF? I'm not saying every round you should be out there casting Cure X Wounds. But its a pretty bad attitude to respond to your friend saying "Dude I'm almost dead!" with "Sorry, lol! Can't help you," when you could have.
Again, I'm not saying you need to prepare all your spells as heals, or even a majority. Maybe just 1 or 2 spells. Or maybe you have several low level spells slots that you just don't think you have much better options for (though the buffs are probably better) that you could fill with healing. Its whatever you think works for your character. But to outright deny helping other players, it sounds very adversarial to me.
Prepare a few healing spells, let your party know you can save their bacon if need be, but you're not going to be spending combat dishing out healing.
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No offense OP, but I feel like you're telling your fellow players "I wouldn't piss on you, if you were on fire."
By all means I'm not implying you should be a band aid. But, at the same time wouldn't it also be nice (and not too troublesome) to be able to cast (either spontaneously or prepare if you're evil) just a couple healing spells if SHTF? I'm not saying every round you should be out there casting Cure X Wounds. But its a pretty bad attitude to respond to your friend saying "Dude I'm almost dead!" with "Sorry, lol! Can't help you," when you could have.
Again, I'm not saying you need to prepare all your spells as heals, or even a majority. Maybe just 1 or 2 spells. Or maybe you have several low level spells slots that you just don't think you have much better options for (though the buffs are probably better) that you could fill with healing. Its whatever you think works for your character. But to outright deny helping other players, it sounds very adversarial to me.
Prepare a few healing spells, let your party know you can save their bacon if need be, but you're not going to be spending combat dishing out healing.
Bare in mind, I've been healing 7 out of the 12 campaigns we've run into, and I've pulled stuff literally out of no where to keep them alive.
I love being the go to guy that everyone knows can heal and heal well, but looking at the Pathfinder Cleric and the options a cleric has for combat, I realized really quickly that a cleric that isn't a bandaid is a heck of a lot more useful than one who is.
How do I prove to my group that a battle cleric is more useful than a bandaid?
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If your group thinks a Rogue is a necessary part of the party, I don't know what you're going to convince them of.
Make an alchemist chirurgeon/vivisectionist/internal alchemist. Focus on the bludgeoner/sap artist line and you'll do unarmed sneak attack nonlethal damage enough to drop anything in one round. You have the skill points to be the rogue, too. You are the healer and the striker, with some arcane casting ability.
Drop monsters in a single round routinely, then when the bbeg comes up, sit there giving out healing potions until the damage catches up with your healing and everybody dies. That will demonstrate the silliness of having one of your primary damage dealers doing the opposite.
Or, you know, don't play with a group of people who doesn't give a crap whether you have fun.
Healing every once in a while or after combat isn't so bad, it's part of your role when you took on the mantle of cleric. If you didn't want to heal at least part of the time, really you could have played an Oracle or Druid or Magus or Bard or any number of casty/battle classes, but you chose cleric -as I understand it- specifically because the party needed some healing and you are now upset because that is what the party expects you to do?
Try to look for ways to make your healing more efficient. That is, try to make it so you don't have to heal as often. You will still need to heal some, but not as often. Encourage party members to invest in items that give them AC, miss chance, chance to negate critical hits, or DR. Set an example by investing in such items yourself. If the party's gear is set up defensively, it will lighten your work load by a lot.
When I play a Cleric, I usually play a Negative Channeler with the Undeath Subdomain. Which means I can Heal just fine, it just takes me two rounds to do so (Death's Kiss one round, heal with an Inflict Spell or a Channel the next!) This encourages the rest of the party not to rush into situations where they will get splattered in one round without healing, and to only expect said healing out of combat.
Healing every once in a while or after combat isn't so bad, it's part of your role when you took on the mantle of cleric.
Ideally anyone can heal after combat with a healstick. I like infernal healing with my arcane casters myself, more efficient and less time dice rolling over something mundane more boring than anything.
There's a severe misunderstanding about healing here I think.
Healing every once in a while or after combat isn't so bad, it's part of your role when you took on the mantle of cleric.Ideally anyone can heal after combat with a healstick. I like infernal healing with my arcane casters myself, more efficient and less time dice rolling over something mundane more boring than anything.
There's a severe misunderstanding about healing here I think.
Part of the problem is considering in combat healing versus out of combat healing. Generally in combat healing should be avoided. However, in a situation where someone is at 10% of their total life it is fair for them to ask for healing when they might otherwise be rendered unconscious if they continue to fight.
Truly, the party should have a wand of CLW or Infernal healing to top off between fights. However, that's not the crux of the issue here I think.
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Healing every once in a while or after combat isn't so bad, it's part of your role when you took on the mantle of cleric. If you didn't want to heal at least part of the time, really you could have played an Oracle or Druid or Magus or Bard or any number of casty/battle classes, but you chose cleric -as I understand it- specifically because the party needed some healing and you are now upset because that is what the party expects you to do?
Why is the Cleric somehow more responsible for party healing that the Oracle (better at it) or the Druid or Bard?
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Don't play the blame game: These guys are (hopefully) your friends. Hostility will only make these problems worse. Always keep the discussion focused on solutions. "Hey guys, I want to play a battle cleric and devote more of my spell slots of buffs and attacking and less of them to healing. What can we do to make this work?"
Ask your DM if the party can buy Healing Belts (Magic Item Compendium). 750 gp each. Standard action to heal 2d8 points of damage, 3 times per day. Can expend additional uses at once to heal up to 4d8 points. Much cheaper than healing potions in the long run, since the charges refresh each day, and better than popping a spell as it uses their actions, not yours.
Talk about pooling the party wealth to buy a wand of cure light wounds or two, so you can activate it after combat to get everybody healed back up.
Maybe take Leadership and get a Vitalist cohort to take care of in-combat healing duties.
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"We all think you're a worthless cleric because you can't keep anyone alive."
Tactics and builds aside this doesn't sound like the type of group you'd want to run with. You should be playing with friends or polite acquaintances, not jerks. If one of my players had the nerve to talk to anyone at my table like that he'd be ducking a chair as a prelude to being booted out the door.
Rynjin, I understand your point of view, and I wish to explain the situation of the encounter a little better.
I'm a level 5 CN Theologian of Demons. I'm wielding a +1 gyrflame scythe, and I cast Prayer, Bless, Bull Strength and some other buffs on the group before we go into combat.
The party consists of me, a level 7 ranger, a level 7 fighter, a level 6 flame oracle, a level 6 ninja, and a level 6 wizard.
We were facing two adult magma dragons (CR 12), and after we used a slayer arrow on one of them then focus fired it until the ranger, fighter, ninja and I could get up to it, we killed the one we shot, and then focused on the other dragon.
Up until the point where we killed the first one, the battle was going smoothly.
Now, the fighter goes up to the front of the second dragon, gets hit from an AoO, then swings and misses. The ranger flanks the dragon, and I stand behind the dragon so I can get flank bonuses, as well. The fighter didn't take into account that dragons have a breath attack, and so, after failing his reflex save, got dropped to 7 health after the dragon focused its breath on him.
The fighter tells me to run around the dragon and heal him, but doing so would provoke and AoO. I could channel, but 3d6 healing doesn't do much when the dragon hits 18.5 on average with his bite alone, plus, I'd be healing the dragon, too.
So, the fighter goes down, barks at me to cast one of my ranged healing spells that stops the bleeding and burning, and I continue fighting the dragon.
All in all, the ranger and fighter went down, we healed them back up, and everything after the battle was fine and what not.
I fully understand that when someone has an opportunity to heal someone and save them, you do it. But, when healing would jeopardize your character's life and the group's success on getting through the fight, healing just isn't as important.
How do I prove to my group that a battle cleric is more useful than a bandaid?
Tell them that you are healing them, pre-emptively. The sooner monsters die, the less damage the players will take.
Tell them that it doesn't matter how few HP you have left at the end of a fight, so long as it's higher than your negative CON.
Tell them that healing during a fight is a waste of time, as the damage monsters deal is far higher than you can heal.
Unless someone has actually DIED, tell them that saying 'I can't keep anyone alive' is an outright bold-faced lie.
Remind them that, if they are at negative hit points and down, most of the time monsters will ignore them. If you heal them, they'll be active with very few hit points, and one solid hit will take them straight past the negatives to dead.
Healing every once in a while or after combat isn't so bad, it's part of your role when you took on the mantle of cleric. If you didn't want to heal at least part of the time, really you could have played an Oracle or Druid or Magus or Bard or any number of casty/battle classes, but you chose cleric -as I understand it- specifically because the party needed some healing and you are now upset because that is what the party expects you to do?
There's a big difference between 'providing some healing' and 'at the party's beck and call for constant healing and doing nothing else'.
and I end up getting pissed because no one knows simple strategies for mitigating damage.
You didn't demonstrate that your PCs were fools (they were using focus fire and flanking, which isn't terrible tactics, and only made one mistake) and unless you were wounded, you could take the AoO, if you thought you would heal more than you would take. A PC reduced to 7 hit points could easily be 20 points from death, and could get caught in a breath weapon blast too which would put an end to him right away. I'm not sure if the PCs had enough warning to cast spells to avoid breath weapon damage, but Resist/Protection from Energy appear on the cleric/oracle list.
I've never been in a group where PCs wouldn't try to rescue each other. If my pal the Dexadin (high Dex dual-wielding paladin) is taking acid damage whenever he cuts that weird golem, my halfling wizard is going to cast Resist Acid on him. (The wizard also hit the golem with Glitterdust before the Dexadin got into melee, which alas did nothing about the splashback.) And if my halfling wizard gets ambushed by a dire tiger that jumps onto the boat and tries to run off with him, the rest of the party is going to try to rescue me. (Yes, those are all true stories from an Eberron campaign years ago.)
One of the biggest issues with 3rd Edition/Pathfinder clerics are an inability to use your own options when PCs are dying. There's not much of a fix in the core rules either. It does sound like you don't want to play a cleric though. If you're still interested, you should look into the move action channeling feat (Quicken Channel?) and selective channeling so you can call for a "healing huddle" (make your allies spend their move actions to get to you), heal them with just a move action, and still do what you want with a standard action. I wish such options had been present back in 3rd Edition.
And get those PCs to split up the costs of several Wands of Cure Light Wounds. They heal everyone, so everyone should pay for them.
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You didn't demonstrate that your PCs were fools (they were using focus fire and flanking, which isn't terrible tactics, and only made one mistake) and unless you were wounded, you could take the AoO, if you thought you would heal more than you would take.
So I have this plan, you see I'm going to heal you by letting a dragon chew on me. I won't actually heal you as much as I took, and I totally could have dropped the dragon and kept him from hurting anyone else, but hey, I just healed you like... 7 damage!
Rynjin, I understand your point of view, and I wish to explain the situation of the encounter a little better.
I'm a level 5 CN Theologian of Demons. I'm wielding a +1 gyrflame scythe, and I cast Prayer, Bless, Bull Strength and some other buffs on the group before we go into combat.
The party consists of me, a level 7 ranger, a level 7 fighter, a level 6 flame oracle, a level 6 ninja, and a level 6 wizard.
We were facing two adult magma dragons (CR 12), and after we used a slayer arrow on one of them then focus fired it until the ranger, fighter, ninja and I could get up to it, we killed the one we shot, and then focused on the other dragon.
Up until the point where we killed the first one, the battle was going smoothly.
Now, the fighter goes up to the front of the second dragon, gets hit from an AoO, then swings and misses. The ranger flanks the dragon, and I stand behind the dragon so I can get flank bonuses, as well. The fighter didn't take into account that dragons have a breath attack, and so, after failing his reflex save, got dropped to 7 health after the dragon focused its breath on him.
The fighter tells me to run around the dragon and heal him, but doing so would provoke and AoO. I could channel, but 3d6 healing doesn't do much when the dragon hits 18.5 on average with his bite alone, plus, I'd be healing the dragon, too.
So, the fighter goes down, barks at me to cast one of my ranged healing spells that stops the bleeding and burning, and I continue fighting the dragon.
All in all, the ranger and fighter went down, we healed them back up, and everything after the battle was fine and what not.
I fully understand that when someone has an opportunity to heal someone and save them, you do it. But, when healing would jeopardize your character's life and the group's success on getting through the fight, healing just isn't as important.
What was the flame oracle doing?
Oh, and just to mention ... your level 6.4 party took on a CR 14 encounter. Coming out of that without a TPK was an accomplishment by itself; the fact that nobody died (if I'm reading you right) is just shy of a miracle.
Rynjin, I understand your point of view, and I wish to explain the situation of the encounter a little better.
I'm a level 5 CN Theologian of Demons. I'm wielding a +1 gyrflame scythe, and I cast Prayer, Bless, Bull Strength and some other buffs on the group before we go into combat.
The party consists of me, a level 7 ranger, a level 7 fighter, a level 6 flame oracle, a level 6 ninja, and a level 6 wizard.
We were facing two adult magma dragons (CR 12), and after we used a slayer arrow on one of them then focus fired it until the ranger, fighter, ninja and I could get up to it, we killed the one we shot, and then focused on the other dragon.
Up until the point where we killed the first one, the battle was going smoothly.
Now, the fighter goes up to the front of the second dragon, gets hit from an AoO, then swings and misses. The ranger flanks the dragon, and I stand behind the dragon so I can get flank bonuses, as well. The fighter didn't take into account that dragons have a breath attack, and so, after failing his reflex save, got dropped to 7 health after the dragon focused its breath on him.
The fighter tells me to run around the dragon and heal him, but doing so would provoke and AoO. I could channel, but 3d6 healing doesn't do much when the dragon hits 18.5 on average with his bite alone, plus, I'd be healing the dragon, too.
So, the fighter goes down, barks at me to cast one of my ranged healing spells that stops the bleeding and burning, and I continue fighting the dragon.
All in all, the ranger and fighter went down, we healed them back up, and everything after the battle was fine and what not.
I fully understand that when someone has an opportunity to heal someone and save them, you do it. But, when healing would jeopardize your character's life and the group's success on getting through the fight, healing just isn't as important.
Ah, gotcher. That makes more sense than what you posted in the first post (which sounded a mite antagonistic).
Though I would recommend preparing a few castings of Grace for when you're in scenarios like that. Not just for potential healing, but for if you need to leave like RIGHT NOW and Withdraw isn't a real option, and so on.
I feel dumb...I have the Create Magic Arms and Armor feat...and could have put that on my friends armor...thanks for mentioning the spell, haha.
And the Oracle was actually the one healing because she found out two turns in (she forgot that they were magma dragons) that her flame spells were being resisted.
And that bit about Inquisitor...I'm kinda interested now...hahaha
Inquisitor doesn't have full BAB, what are you talking about chainsaw?
Inquisitor doesn't have full BAB, what are you talking about chainsaw?
Maybe he is pulling the ol' bait n switch. You know how salespeople are...
And the Oracle was actually the one healing because she found out two turns in (she forgot that they were magma dragons) that her flame spells were being resisted.
So the fighter wanted two people healing him? Was he still upset after you explained why you didn't run to heal him? Is it common for your group to have PCs stop what they are doing to run to someone's aid regardless of the situation?
BaB is definitely the wrong word. Attack bonus would be what you're looking for there.