Cthulhu, in its capacity as the High Priest of the Crawling Chaos, has actually been used as a villain in my group's prior campaigns.
No, I haven't run the Pathfinder write-up against a party.
It is a neat write-up, though. I love that Big C's a colossal creature that, if it really wants to, can fit in a 5 foot square. (Seriously. Look up how compression works.)
While I'd expect the unadjusted write-up to crumple in the face of a party optimized for rocket tag, I don't hold that against Big C - baseline monsters aren't written up for rocket tag, as heavy optimization for rocket tag does not reflect an "average" group.
If I was actually running it for my own group, which normally pushes extremely hard for rocket tag, I'd probably give it something like quadruple maximum HP and 2 or 3 additional turns per round, probably at init +20, init +10, and init -10.
It'd depend a LOT on how that particular group actually worked.
Huh. I just noticed that Cthulhu has a caster level of 30. Cthulhu having access to a 60 HD gate 3/day has very amusing ramifications.
Ha, and there's another thing with amusing ramifications. A Great Old One has access to the mythic versions of all of its spell-like powers. So if you're using Legendary Games's Mythic Magic book... Would allow summoning up to 80 HD of nonmythic creatures or 60 HD of mythic creatures. Nifty.
Anyways, a fight against Cthulhu will depend greatly on whether a GM looks at and understands what Cthulhu can actually do.
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I got Cthulhu in my Reaper Bones Kickstarter set, so of course there will eventually be an encounter with him. The stars won’t be right until I’ve had a chance to paint him though. With literally hundreds of minis for me to paint that might have to wait for strange aeons to pass.
As folks were saying, this is just Cthulhu here, not Azathoth. Of course if Cthulhu gains his freedom he might bring Azathoth to your world. Then you’d really be out of luck, kind of like if somebody woke Mana-Yood-Sushai. That said, if a party of non-mythic party of 20th level PCs is really able to handle CR30 Cthulhu "easily" it might be time to look at the powers they're using and nerf them a little.
I don't think that I will never use Cthulhu against my PCs. What I do find funny about his stats though is the CMD. It's 97 with a 99 against bull rush or sunder. Seriously? At those dizzying heights, what's the dif? It's like being a multi-billionaire and you win $100,000.00 in a lottery.
Tripping him (it, whatever) is fine but trying to bull rush? Forget it, that's crazy talk!!!!
Is the WT statted up anywhere officially?mythic realms
Thanks..I might get that.
I don't think that I will never use Cthulhu against my PCs. What I do find funny about his stats though is the CMD. It's 97 with a 99 against bull rush or sunder. Seriously? At those dizzying heights, what's the dif? It's like being a multi-billionaire and you win $100,000.00 in a lottery.
Tripping him (it, whatever) is fine but trying to bull rush? Forget it, that's crazy talk!!!!
Many creatures gain CMD bonuses versus types of maneuvers. It does, though, show how the system math looks kind of weak at really high levels.
I'm sure there's a group of Yu-Gi-Oh players somewhere that made level 40 PCs overnight and curbstomped Cthulhu the next day. I doubt anyone has played from level one to twenty with mythic tiers to confront him properly.
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In the campaign I'm currently running, the endgame is going to be a battle against a released Rovagug (who, in my setting is one of the Outer Gods of the Dark Tapestry, the only one that Came Through) that may or may not culminate in the opening of the walls between the planes that allow the Mythos creatures to pour into our world. Cthulhu will be in there somewhere, but he'll probably be overshadowed by the other big names.
Using any of the Great Old Ones or Outer Gods is essentially a fancy "rocks fall, everyone dies" as far as I'm concerned. If you have to engage them directly, you've already lost. Unless you're a god or something...the party will eventually attempt the Test of the Starstone, so they might be prepared enough for the Dark Tapestry. Then again, it took the combined efforts of all the gods (many of whom died in the process) to seal away just Rovagug...
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That's Mundane Earth Cthulhu scaled to ordinary heroes, whose only other option would be to whip out puny pistols. That's not Golarion Cthulu who's built appropriately to his environment.Well in Lovecrafts story Johansen rams Cthulhu with a ship and busts his head. I think it ok if epic heroes, that can Challenge the gods, can do better than that.
The high levels is about, among other things, facing stuff that is way beyond.
But i dont envision using any of the mythos stuff in my game.
Also, Cthulhu was still half asleep, and the ship didn't actually kill him, just made him have to stop and regenerate. The only reason he wasn't freed again was the stars were not yet right.
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I'm inclinded to agree with both statements actually.
1) Greater Old one in campaign = rocks fall everyone dies unless your talking about 20/10 mythic heroes.
2) 20/10 mythic heroes are out of the bounds 0f normal people anyway and are worshiped in some cases as gods in their own immortal right.
So to me Cthulu is essentially a 20/10 member of his own race. From what I recall he was the high priest of other beings more powerful which implies while he was worshiped as a god by lowly humans in terms of his own race he's not so powerful that they can't see him as a high priest as opposed to a god in his right.
So if you introduce him high level mythic heroes might put him back to sleep but if he draws down what he worships then your best bet is to move to another dimension as 20/10 mythic or not you aren't doing a thing against some of those elder gods.
Eh, depends how optimized you are talking. An optimized level 20/0 mythic tier Wizard like Arkalion could down Cthulhu without even needing to worry about being late for lunch. Most other level 20/0 mythic tier full casters could similarly dunk on Cthulhu pretty hard if optimized a bit.
I doubt anyone has played from level one to twenty with mythic tiers to confront him properly.
So close. So very close we are...
Yeah, the only time I used Cthulhu is as a plot device in a storyline I was developing. Basically, far in the future Cthulhu is escaping and there is no way to put him back this time... it's literally the end of the world... so in a last ditch effort this character (who is an NPC in the game, and intended to be a mythic mentor to the players who she's eventually wanting to get to help her with Cthulhu, once they are level 20/mythic 10 like her) used a high tech device to open up a black hole to destroy the entire Sol solar system, and Cthulhu with it. She got caught in the event horizon and fell into the black hole too. But, in classic "black hole to another galaxy" trope, the black hole led backward in time... millions of years to when the planet Earth was first forming. That's when Cthulhu arrived on Earth. Finding nothing but a molten rock, he fled into Ry'leh and became trapped there... Basically, Cthulhu has no beginning and no end, just an eternal loop through time... but someday... maybe someday his cultists can stop the loop and free him. Captain Quinn wants to do the opposite. Find a way to truly stop him once and for all, or... if she can't do that just go home to her own time where he's gone forever. Too bad about Earth though.
If my party is facing a greater old one in actual combat I have failed as a GM.
How so? Seems like a fine if not especially challenging campaign ender.
In an epic campaign I was playing in, my husband had an evil cult summon Cthulhu.
The cult didn't know that my PC recently found a summoning ritual for another powerful being, and so the group summoned Godzilla!
Godzilla battled Cthulhu and won. Godzilla then gave us a ride home cause he was such a nice guy.
It was one of those campaigns. 25th level characters riding around on Godzilla after the world was nearly destroyed.
Has Anzyr explosive runed this thread yet?
That would work certainly, but Cthulhu isn't that impressive. A few Dazing spells work just well.
In an epic campaign I was playing in, my husband had an evil cult summon Cthulhu.
The cult didn't know that my PC recently found a summoning ritual for another powerful being, and so the group summoned Godzilla!
Godzilla battled Cthulhu and won. Godzilla then gave us a ride home cause he was such a nice guy.
It was one of those campaigns. 25th level characters riding around on Godzilla after the world was nearly destroyed.
But did you put any thought to those left behind?
Life goes on for some of us, the unlucky I say.
Have you seen what your careless galivanting about has done to D.C.!?!
Stating Cthulhu was a mistake. Making a his unspeakable presence a fear effect was a worse mistake. It's not that Cthulhu is scary, it's that he's alien, so alien that the mind simply cannot handle it.
Eh level 20 full casters are basically deities. Honestly, their probably even stronger then most real world deities. I don't think deities are really scared of Cthulhu.
My answer - no. I have not had Cthulhu face any PCs.
I'm not against it with the right group. Either some over the top, drunken planescape mythic campaign, or as a victim horror game where players are warned not to get emotionally attached to their PCs (making it clear it is victim horror RP, rather than a normal fantasy hero campaign). Thing is, all groups I run playing Pathfinder want heroic fantasy RP.
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Eh level 20 full casters are basically deities. Honestly, their probably even stronger then most real world deities. I don't think deities are really scared of Cthulhu.
Ish, that's up for debate. And, again, it's not a matter of fear, it's a matter of the human (or elven or whatever) brain simply not being equipped to deal with whatever the Great Old Ones are.
By Pathfinder standards, 20 full casters are not gods. That's one thing they've been smart about thus far, they haven't statted the gods. As of right now, everything that gods do are narrative effects, they don't actually have rules. If the god wants to do something, they do it. They don't have to muck about with spell slots or metamagic or saving throws. If they want you turned into a badger, you're a badger. If they don't want your magic to work, it doesn't work.
That's kind of the level Cthulhu should be operating on, only more impersonally. Cthulhu (or any Great Old One or Outer God) shouldn't be killing, driving you mad, or tormenting you out of anything personal, they do it either because you're there (in the case of Cthulhu) or simply because you're so far beneath their notice that it doesn't even register that they're doing anything to you, because they don't even really know you are there.
Eh level 20 full casters are basically deities. Honestly, their probably even stronger then most real world deities. I don't think deities are really scared of Cthulhu.Ish, that's up for debate. And, again, it's not a matter of fear, it's a matter of the human (or elven or whatever) brain simply not being equipped to deal with whatever the Great Old Ones are.
By Pathfinder standards, 20 full casters are not gods. That's one thing they've been smart about thus far, they haven't statted the gods. As of right now, everything that gods do are narrative effects, they don't actually have rules. If the god wants to do something, they do it. They don't have to muck about with spell slots or metamagic or saving throws. If they want you turned into a badger, you're a badger. If they don't want your magic to work, it doesn't work.
That's kind of the level Cthulhu should be operating on, only more impersonally. Cthulhu (or any Great Old One or Outer God) shouldn't be killing, driving you mad, or tormenting you out of anything personal, they do it either because you're there (in the case of Cthulhu) or simply because you're so far beneath their notice that it doesn't even register that they're doing anything to you, because they don't even really know you are there.
Uh, I know real world Deities who would very much like the ability to create illusory copies of literally any creature they want, create planes of existence, instantly move between any two points or bring the dead back to life with no muss or fuss.
And Cthulhu is only an unspeakable horror who crushes people in our world without noticing them. People in our world cap out at like level 6 and those people would also look at a level 20 full caster as an unspeakable horror that crushes people without noticing them.
Cthulhu (or any Great Old One or Outer God) shouldn't be killing, driving you mad, or tormenting you out of anything personal, they do it either because you're there (in the case of Cthulhu) or simply because you're so far beneath their notice that it doesn't even register that they're doing anything to you, because they don't even really know you are there.
That works for a ship of 2nd level Experts. We're talking about 20th level adventurers.
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If my party is facing a greater old one in actual combat I have failed as a GM.How so? Seems like a fine if not especially challenging campaign ender.
As soon as my players can hit Cthulhu with their swords they lose any fear of it. At most I'd have them fighting off a tentacle poking through a portal while they frantically try to close it.
As soon as my players can hit Cthulhu with their swords they lose any fear of it. At most I'd have them fighting off a tentacle poking through a portal while they frantically try to close it.If my party is facing a greater old one in actual combat I have failed as a GM.How so? Seems like a fine if not especially challenging campaign ender.
Why would someone who can create and destroy worlds be afraid of Cthulhu in the first place? Level 20 characters are not concerned with the same things people in our world are and should have powerful motivations. Take Arkalion's motivation:
Basically, he dislikes the present management of the afterlife system so he is going around to Prime material planes so he can incorporate them in what he calls the "Grand Cycle". The Grand Cycle is endless loop of reincarnation governed by Arkalion himself. The main upside (in his opinion) is that by keeping souls endlessly within the cycle, it deprives the planes, outsiders (like devils and demons) and gods from gaining any power from those souls. He believes that the more souls that can be added to the "Grand Cycle", the more powerful the Grand Cycle itself will become as it incrementally gains spiritual strength each time a cycle is completed.
Why would someone like that view Cthulhu as anything more then an annoyance to be crushed?
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It sounds like Arkalion has an incredibly generous GM that lets him do stuff beyond even the scope of 9th level magic (if he's actually doing that). But as a goal, trying to destroy and supplant the afterlife is definitely suitably ambitious for a L20 supervillian. =P
I think the CR 26+ demigods are grossly underpowered, but I'm thrilled they're in the system.
The entire point of mythic is to allow PCs to fight things far outside the weightclass of normal mortals; being able to straight fight and kill a kaiju or Pazuzu or Cthulhu is exactly the sort of thing mythic characters should be able to do.
Mythic characters are quasi-dieties in their own right, after all.
Elric or Hercules should be able to fight Cthulhu, and I'm glad that's the sort of the thing that Pathfinder rules actually embrace.
Unfortunately, the things that are supposed to require mythic to fight are often so underpowered that they can be challenged and soundly thrashed by non-mythic parties. (even without rules exploits like the snow cone wish machine or the the explosive runes stuff. And yes, I'm aware it's legal; that's why it's an exploit, not cheating =P)
Cthulhu's thematically cool but not actually a solid opponent - if you're safe from the instant death aura (which just requires fear immunity, like from greater heroism), you're about 90% of the way towards being able to fight it and win.
Fighting a demigod should be daunting, and it really isn't.
Nocticula, with her aura that actually turns off critical defenses against her, is a much better designed CR30 foe (though her actual numbers are still too low). But it's also worth noting that the "baseline" demigod has no gear, no inherent bonuses, etc., so they're much weaker than they COULD be and honestly much weaker than they SHOULD be - a demigod frequently rules a realm the size of an entire world, and should have insane resources that are every bit as good as any infinite wishes/money exploit.
Giving any demigod the benefits of 20 levels of the unchained itemless progression is probably a good place to start for actually making them dangerous.
And there's other steps that can be taken, as well. (Though all of that comes of the price of making a demigod much more complicated to run, of course. And finite page space is definitely an issue for the base line design Paizo does - they can only do so much!)
It sounds like Arkalion has an incredibly generous GM that lets him do stuff beyond even the scope of 9th level magic (if he's actually doing that). But as a goal, trying to destroy and supplant the afterlife is definitely suitably ambitious for a L20 supervillian. =P
Hey now. Trust me when I say you very much want the Golarion afterlife to be replaced. That being said Arkalion is very Neutral.
Also, none of that is beyond the scope of abilities in the books. He has the means of endlessly reincarnating entire worlds. And the means to visit alternate prime material planes. The only thing that cannot be accomplished in that write-up via RAW is the "He believes that the more souls that can be added to the "Grand Cycle", the more powerful the Grand Cycle itself will become as it incrementally gains spiritual strength each time a cycle is completed." However, that's just what he believes, there's no proof that's what actually happens so it's inability to occur via RAW is a non-issue.
In fact the means to do all the things listed are all in the CRB. Even the way to get to alternate prime material planes. I'm not going to point how out how to do it, but I'm sure someone can guess. I'll give the hint that it has nothing to with his class and that it is not recorded on the "battle version" sheet.
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Anzyr, the only thing that lets him recycle souls is if Pharasma hasn't already passed them on. Since that is purely DM decision, then you have a very lenient DM. Simple.
Remember, its only possible if the soul is willing or able to come back. GM call 100%.
Now, as for other planes and other worlds, how do you know magic even works the same there. The base rules are broad strokes that allows flexible application by a DM to suit their campaign. You could plain hop or planet hop only to find that magic doesn't even exist where you are. This of course screws your level 20 mage completely, as now nothing he has works.
Also, when the gods find out you're trying to usurp their power, they merely take it away from you.
Pharasma - "There's a mortal trying to rip sous away from their preordained destiny in order to trap them in an ever recycling loop!"
Other Gods - <Snap fingers> "Not now he's not. Now he's a 3 year old girl trapped in a mans body, with no magic ability at all."
Pharasma - "Ah it's great to be a divine being of amazing power that understands the creation of everything including magical power. Hope Mr Huge Ego learns his....ah her lesson"
There are places on Golarion where magic doesn't work. There are places on Golarion where magic doesn't work the way you intend it.
I do believe that you are playing easy mode Anzyr.
Anzyr, the only thing that lets him recycle souls is if Pharasma hasn't already passed them on. Since that is purely DM decision, then you have a very lenient DM. Simple.
Remember, its only possible if the soul is willing or able to come back. GM call 100%.
Now, as for other planes and other worlds, how do you know magic even works the same there. The base rules are broad strokes that allows flexible application by a DM to suit their campaign. You could plain hop or planet hop only to find that magic doesn't even exist where you are. This of course screws your level 20 mage completely, as now nothing he has works.
Also, when the gods find out you're trying to usurp their power, they merely take it away from you.
Pharasma - "There's a mortal trying to rip sous away from their preordained destiny in order to trap them in an ever recycling loop!"
Other Gods - <Snap fingers> "Not now he's not. Now he's a 3 year old girl trapped in a mans body, with no magic ability at all."
Pharasma - "Ah it's great to be a divine being of amazing power that understands the creation of everything including magical power. Hope Mr Huge Ego learns his....ah her lesson"
There are places on Golarion where magic doesn't work. There are places on Golarion where magic doesn't work the way you intend it.
I do believe that you are playing easy mode Anzyr.
Right. None of those things actually change the fact that Arkalion is capable of doing that. Getting people to accept reincarnation is easy. Particularly, if you can make the kind of Diplomacy rolls a level 20 full caster can. And being neutral, Arkalion has methods for dealing with those who don't. To be specific, using Soul Bind if Reincarnation isn't accepted.
Surprisingly, magic not functioning in the other worlds is actually barely even a setback. Such poor souls merely need relocated to Arkalion's demiplanes (which is possible even if the other world itself has no magic).
The Gods can try to take Arkalion's power away, but well they'd need stats to do that and that would end very very badly for them if someone like Lamashtu as a mere Demon Lord could take them out.
I'm sorry, but this is what high level play should look like. It's not easy mode playing, it's "this is the kind of thing high level was made for" playing
For some reason my mind keeps going back to the old letters column in Dragon where Thor got knocked off a wall and someone got his hammer.
Anyway, no I haven't used Cthulhu against my players. None of them are big fans of those stories and no one is clamoring to see him outside of internet memes or whatever.
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The Gods can try to take Arkalion's power away, but well they'd need stats to do that and that would end very very badly for them if someone like Lamashtu as a mere Demon Lord could take them out.
Um...two points.
First, Lamashtu isn't a just a Demon Lord, Lamashtu is a deity. An ASCENDED Demon Lord. Calling Lamashtu a demon is like calling Iomedae a human.
Second, DEITIES DO NOT NEED STATS. When dealing with non-deities they are effectively omnipotent. The only time they have to actually struggle with anything is if another deity opposes them. If a non-deity is trying to do something a god does not like, they can negate it by fiat.
The Gods can try to take Arkalion's power away, but well they'd need stats to do that and that would end very very badly for them if someone like Lamashtu as a mere Demon Lord could take them out.Um...two points.
First, Lamashtu isn't a just a Demon Lord, Lamashtu is a deity. An ASCENDED Demon Lord. Calling Lamashtu a demon is like calling Iomedae a human.
Second, DEITIES DO NOT NEED STATS. When dealing with non-deities they are effectively omnipotent. The only time they have to actually struggle with anything is if another deity opposes them. If a non-deity is trying to do something a god does not like, they can negate it by fiat.
Let me raise you two factual counterpoints:
First, when Lamashtu killed the god Curchanus, she was just a demon lord. Not a deity.
Second, evidently deities struggle to do a lot of things in Golarion. Even super basic things. So I find your claims that they are effectively omnipotent suspect and lacking in evidence.
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Let me raise you two factual counterpoints:First, when Lamashtu killed the god Curchanus, she was just a demon lord. Not a deity.
Second, evidently deities struggle to do a lot of things in Golarion. Even super basic things. So I find your claims that they are effectively omnipotent suspect and lacking in evidence.
Last I checked, as far as Pathfinder is concerned, Demon Lords are treated as deity level entities. But, fair enough. Still, Demon Lords aren't statted either as far as I know. Not in Pathfinder, anyway. So their abilities are also narrative effects.
And gods struggle to do things in Golarion because they generally choose not to operate openly, because doing so would draw interference from other deities. The gods are sort of stuck in a kind of cold war. The only thing stopping a god from doing whatever the hell they want are other gods.
The Gods can try to take Arkalion's power away, but well they'd need stats to do that and that would end very very badly for them if someone like Lamashtu as a mere Demon Lord could take them out.Um...two points.
First, Lamashtu isn't a just a Demon Lord, Lamashtu is a deity. An ASCENDED Demon Lord. Calling Lamashtu a demon is like calling Iomedae a human.
Second, DEITIES DO NOT NEED STATS. When dealing with non-deities they are effectively omnipotent. The only time they have to actually struggle with anything is if another deity opposes them. If a non-deity is trying to do something a god does not like, they can negate it by fiat.
Let me raise you two factual counterpoints:
First, when Lamashtu killed the god Curchanus, she was just a demon lord. Not a deity.
Second, evidently deities struggle to do a lot of things in Golarion. Even super basic things. So I find your claims that they are effectively omnipotent suspect and lacking in evidence.
Last I checked, as far as Pathfinder is concerned, Demon Lords are treated as deity level entities. But, fair enough. Still, Demon Lords aren't statted either as far as I know. Not in Pathfinder, anyway. So their abilities are also narrative effects.
And gods struggle to do things in Golarion because they generally choose not to operate openly, because doing so would draw interference from other deities. The gods are sort of stuck in a kind of cold war. The only thing stopping a god from doing whatever the hell they want are other gods.
There are actually quite a few Demon Lords statted up including Baphomet, Dagon, and Nocticula.
In terms of the Great Old Ones, I actually find Hastur to be the most interesting, despite my pseudonym. Perhaps it's because Hastur is the most nebulous of them...it is little more than a few references in Lovecraft's writing, and not really any more well defined in Chambers' works.
He's pretty well defined in PF: