Just thinking out loud here- obviously haven't had a chance to test anything yet- but I'm wondering if Spell Tinkerer might need to be done as an opposed check versus the DC of the spell if the spell effect is not one created by the Arcanist? I'm not sure a 1st level Arcanist should be able to suppress the Hallucinatory Terrain effect of a 20th level Wizard, for instance.
Minor terminology quibble here: an opposed check involves both parties (not adventuring parties, but entities) comparing dice.
Minor terminology quibble here: an opposed check involves both parties (not adventuring parties, but entities) comparing dice.
lol! Yes, you are correct. See, this is why I've had to wait years for the guys at Paizo to put together this sort of class for me. :)
Then a spell tinkerer check (d20 + arcanist level) vs the DC of the spell?
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Was the reason really "this is too strong"? I thought it was "This is as boring as watching paint dry"?
Both. I'll take an interesting class over a balanced class any day, but the Arcanist was (and honestly, still is) neither.
Flavor: The problem with the "new" flavor is that, well, it's not really new. There's no character concept the arcanist fills that could not have been done with a Wizard. Wizards already tinker and search for new magics, that's the entire point of the spellbook and spell research mechanics. I guess Arcanists are supposed to be better at it, somehow? Why?
Spell Slots: While I appreciate the effort, the problem was never the number of spell slots per day, but the number of spells prepared: A caster's ultimate weapon is their flexibility, and in this the arcanist has the best of both the wizard AND the sorcerer.
Arcane Exploits: Far as I'm concerned, arcane exploits need to be evaluated on two points. One, how do they compare with Arcane School Powers? Two, how do they compare with Bloodline Powers? Note that just as a system arcane exploits are superior to both, because while you need to choose all of the powers of an arcane school, or all the powers of a bloodline (thus arcane schools and bloodlines must be evaluated as packages), you can pick and choose arcane exploits individually. You get more exploits than you get of either arcane school powers *or* bloodline powers. Finally, most arcane school powers or bloodline powers have their own uses/day limitations but arcane exploits have the benefit of all sharing the same arcane reservoir; You get lots of freedom as to how often you can use each exploit.
And evaluated individually, most of the arcane exploits are vastly superior to most of the arcane school powers and bloodline powers. Let's go through them all:
Acid Jet, Flame Arc, and the other Blast exploits: Better than all of the blast powers Sorcerers and Wizards get, though still inferior to a 1st-level spell for most of your career.
Consume Magic Items: A horrible deal to begin with, and the various items aren't really balanced against each other. 1 reservoir point from a potion is costing you 150 gp. 1 point from a scroll is costing you 75 gp. 1 point from a wand is costing you 225 gp. The tradeoff gets even worse if you use spells higher than second level, and this is assuming you're only doing this with magic items you find: If you're consuming ones you've actually bought yourself, you're blowing through twice the gold. And considering what you can do with a spell is usually much better than what you can do with an exploit, you're better off keeping the item.
Counterspell: Hey look, it's our old friend Divine Defiance, except even better since you can get a bonus to the dispel check and you don't even need Dispel Magic prepared! While the lack of good counterspelling options in PF is infuriating, it's kinda sad that only the overpowered Mary Sue class finally gets one. Automatic choice.
Dimensional Slide: I'm not sure if you can use this to escape a grapple or not. If you can, then this is an automatic choice as it's a better version of the second-best arcane school power, Shift. (Forewarned is the best. Pleeeease don't write an exploit that gives 1/2 class level + INT mod as a bonus to Initiative!)
Metamagic Knowledge: Metamagic feats, whee! At least you aren't allowed to select this more than once.
Metamixing: Hey look, it's our old friend Metamagic Specialist! At least Arcane Spellsurge isn't around anymore.
Potent Magic: +2 to save DCs is like a +4 untyped bonus to INT, and +2 CL has all sorts of uses (making your spells harder to dispel among them).
Spell Tinkerer: Can an Arcanist use this on herself? Does it even require an action? If I'm reading this right, this is easily the most broken exploit an Arcanist has available. Spend one point to shrug off the effects of any spell affecting you. You can even do this if you're paralyzed, dazed, or even stunned!
Counter Drain: One of the best exploits gets even better, cause now it can fuel itself!
Disrupt Spell: Got hit with a debuff that still allows you to move? Touch yourself and get rid of it. You even get a nice bonus to the check. Use spell tinkerer to suppress the effect first for the really nasty stuff that leaves you unable to move. Oh, and this ability doesn't seem to require an action either, so if you fail the check you can retry so long as you have points left. Broken, broken, broken.
Greater Metamagic Knowledge: Another free metamagic feat, that you get to change every morning? Yes please.
Siphon Spell: Oh look, yet another of the best exploits gets the ability to recharge itself.
Spell Thief: Steal your enemy's buffs! Surprisingly, this isn't a very big upgrade to Spell Tinkerer since it doesn't upgrade the spell's best function.
And finally, Magical Supremacy: Meh, this is okay. Makes consuming your spell slots a bit of a better trade. Not all that impressive as a capstone compared to what the class gets before, but it's a lot better than most of the arcane school/bloodline capstones.
Conclusion: I don't think any sane DM would ever allow this class as-is. Suggestions.
- Lower spells prepared per day to the old Spirit Shaman progression. That class worked fine, really.
- Bundle up the arcane exploits into thematic packages: This will hopefully give the Arcanist some flavor to distinguish it from the wizard, and will help balance the arcanist against its parent classes better.
- Specify that Spell Tinkerer and Disrupt Spell can't be used on yourself. Also specify that they take a standard action that requires you to be able to speak and move (say that they have components like spells or something).
- Give Consume Magic Items, one of the class's only iconic and truly unique abilities, a better economy to make it actually worth using.
RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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Just a note, I feel like the energy powers are a bit too weak to validate burning a resource on myself, especially with how scarce points are to begin with. Perhaps a larger pool, making the energy abilities one point, and the more direct abilities (Counterspell, Dimensional Slide, etc) more expensive.
Right now the pool just feels a bit too restrictive to do much without forcing the cannibalization of items, which as was stated before, can throw off WBL curve. The caster level caveat in cannibalization also seems a bit too restrictive, possibly a "within 5 caster levels" to balance this out a bit more so you don't lose access to your wand that you've been suckling on as soon as you level up because you grew up too much for it.
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@Craft Cheese:
1.) Wizards don't tinker as written. They just learn. Arcanists analyze and fiddle with magic itself, while Wizards study spells specifically and Sorcerers just kind of do stuff. Very different theme.
If you had to put it in a metaphor a Wizard is a classically learned scholar, brought up and highly trained master of their craft. Arcanist is the self-taught up and comer, always trying to find new ways to do things instead of just perfecting the old methods.
Sorcerer is that a!$+!$* you know that's good at everything he touches and everything he's involved with turns to gold.
2.) Don't compare them to Arcane Schools and Bloodlines. Compare them to things like Discoveries (or Arcane Discoveries) and the like, because that's closer to what they are. Your only criteria for them being better seems to be "well you can pick and choose".
3.) I don't think you understand what Mary Sue refers to. Please don't use it in this context again.
4.) Yes some of the powers are very good. So are some Bloodline and School powers. And Domains. And Discoveries. And etc...
Most of these cost Arcane Points, and that's a resource that's hard to renew. You only get a fraction of your points back at the beginning of each day, not all of them, and the only other way to replenish them is those powers you say are useless and not cost effective.
Flavor: The problem with the "new" flavor is that, well, it's not really new. There's no character concept the arcanist fills that could not have been done with a Wizard. Wizards already tinker and search for new magics, that's the entire point of the spellbook and spell research mechanics. I guess Arcanists are supposed to be better at it, somehow? Why?
They're better at certain aspects of it, not all of it. The wizard is still the generalist (well, and a specialist in some areas); the wizard is the academic of the arcane world. He studies, creates reams of scholastic papers that sit in dusty shelves. He teaches and theorizes.
The arcanist takes shortcuts. He thinks outside the box. He's the prodigy that dropped out of school because it was too restrictive, and went off to court the venture capitalists and create a startup.
Folks, I clean this up later, but you must know the metamagic feat to use metamixing.
Jason
Thanks for clearing that up, happy turkey-day :)
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I wonder how many people are going to fail to read the arcane reservoir carefully and playtest this class with a maxed-out pool every day, then come back and cry OP.
Jiggy why would you spoiler that? Now everyone is going to cry OP without reading the bloody ability.
Everyone take a good long look at Arcane Reservoir.
Now let me focus your attention.
The arcanist’s arcane reservoir can hold an amount of magical energy equal to three times the arcanist’s level. Each day when preparing spells, the arcanist’s arcane reservoir fills with raw magical energy, gaining a number of points equal to 1 + 1/2 her arcanist level. Any points she had from the previous day are lost.
So unless your siphoning from stuff, half the time your pool will be near empty. And you will go through them very quickly if your going to lose them all the next day anyway.
I've never understood the hype of metamagic. Has always seemed kinda good but never fantastic.
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I've never understood the hype of metamagic. Has always seemed kinda good but never fantastic.
If this is a general trend I think I may have learned something valuable about how this community understands balance. Metamagic is a huge gigantic deal and is a cornerstone of the 'overwhelming' part of 'overwhelming power'. The spells by themselves are potent, yes, but the right selection of metamagic feats takes one spell and potentially turns it into many different kinds of spell, all of which you get to build yourself. And with Pathfinder's easy availability of methods to reduce costs for using meta...
Well, it gets crazy flexible. Which is where the power's at.
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Flavor: The problem with the "new" flavor is that, well, it's not really new. There's no character concept the arcanist fills that could not have been done with a Wizard. Wizards already tinker and search for new magics, that's the entire point of the spellbook and spell research mechanics. I guess Arcanists are supposed to be better at it, somehow? Why?They're better at certain aspects of it, not all of it. The wizard is still the generalist (well, and a specialist in some areas); the wizard is the academic of the arcane world. He studies, creates reams of scholastic papers that sit in dusty shelves. He teaches and theorizes.
The arcanist takes shortcuts. He thinks outside the box. He's the prodigy that dropped out of school because it was too restrictive, and went off to court the venture capitalists and create a startup.
Once again, I don't see anything about this concept that isn't "Wizard". You could totally make "Prodigy that dropped out of school and taught himself" with a Wizard. Heck, that probably describes at least half of all Wizard PCs that have ever been made.
1.) Wizards don't tinker as written. They just learn. Arcanists analyze and fiddle with magic itself, while Wizards study spells specifically and Sorcerers just kind of do stuff. Very different theme.
So Wizards don't... analyze magic? What are metamagic feats and spell research for, exactly?
Wizards study spells specifically... and Arcanists don't? Then why do they have a spellbook identical to how a Wizard's works?
2.) Don't compare them to Arcane Schools and Bloodlines. Compare them to things like Discoveries (or Arcane Discoveries) and the like, because that's closer to what they are. Your only criteria for them being better seems to be "well you can pick and choose".
If you compare them to discoveries instead they're even more ridiculous.
4.) Yes some of the powers are very good. So are some Bloodline and School powers. And Domains. And Discoveries. And etc...
None of them come close to Spell Tinkering, even with it requiring a standard action. Furthermore with bloodlines and arcane schools you can't pick and choose the best powers from each one, you have to take them as a package deal (barring Wildblooded and Subschools, which are just sub-packages and still don't allow you to pick and choose powers freely). Only the best exploits matter because that's what every arcanist is going to have.
Most of these cost Arcane Points, and that's a resource that's hard to renew. You only get a fraction of your points back at the beginning of each day, not all of them, and the only other way to replenish them is those powers you say are useless and not cost effective.
1 + 1/2 Arcanist level each day is *more* than enough, unless you're burning through 1-3 points each round.
I've never understood the hype of metamagic. Has always seemed kinda good but never fantastic.If this is a general trend I think I may have learned something valuable about how this community understands balance. Metamagic is a huge gigantic deal and is a cornerstone of the 'overwhelming' part of 'overwhelming power'. The spells by themselves are potent, yes, but the right selection of metamagic feats takes one spell and potentially turns it into many different kinds of spell, all of which you get to build yourself. And with Pathfinder's easy availability of methods to reduce costs for using meta...
Well, it gets crazy flexible. Which is where the power's at.
And I think we all just learned a lot about the Giant in the Park community's views on balance.
I've never understood the hype of metamagic. Has always seemed kinda good but never fantastic.If this is a general trend I think I may have learned something valuable about how this community understands balance. Metamagic is a huge gigantic deal and is a cornerstone of the 'overwhelming' part of 'overwhelming power'. The spells by themselves are potent, yes, but the right selection of metamagic feats takes one spell and potentially turns it into many different kinds of spell, all of which you get to build yourself. And with Pathfinder's easy availability of methods to reduce costs for using meta...
Well, it gets crazy flexible. Which is where the power's at.
You may have a point about some metamagic like Dazing, but its difficult to me to justify upping the spell level of my lower level spells with piddling effects rather than preparing and using a spell of that higher level.
But then again I don't get a lot of opportunities to play Arcane Casters. I mostly roll Clerics.
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2.) Don't compare them to Arcane Schools and Bloodlines. Compare them to things like Discoveries (or Arcane Discoveries) and the like, because that's closer to what they are. Your only criteria for them being better seems to be "well you can pick and choose".
Gotta disagree with this one. They are full arcane casters. They don't even need class features to be the most powerful class ever, but since they do get class features anyway (and that's great, otherwise the class would be very bland) they should be compared to other full arcane casters (having the most powerful best spell list and the best casting system ever already makes this class far more powerful than Sorcerers)
Arcanists are a serious contender for the newest "Top-God-class" of PF. They completely overshadow Sorcerers (and Wizards, during 12 out 20 levels, while still rivaling them at the other 8 levels).
Their casting alone makes them absurdly powerful. Their class features are really cool, but they do make the class even more unbalanced. Not that it really matters... The Arcanist's design completely ignores any semblance of balance anyway, so might as well add more cool stuff, I suppose.
But tell us how you really feel?
So Wizards don't... analyze magic? What are metamagic feats and spell research for, exactly?
1.) Metamagic is just a small variation on an existing spell. Not much research there. "My Fireball now burns things. How innovative."
2.) If your GM lets you research a new spell he probably has a screw loose. Also, that is, again, studying SPELLS, not magic. It's the difference between studying theoretical physics and applied physics.
If you compare them to discoveries instead they're even more ridiculous.
Not particularly. Being able to carpet bomb an area with one of the better low level spells in the game (Stinking Cloud) with a higher DC than a Wizard could likely manage is pretty damn good, for example.
None of them come close to Spell Tinkering, even with it requiring a standard action.
You mean that ability that requires investment in a secondary stat for it to make any real difference in a combat situation, and requires the Arcanist (squishy, d6 HD 1/2 BaB class) to be adjacent to the effect or enemy?
Your definition of OP relies on the assumption that it works on the Arcanist himself, and that it would make a difference if it did. Most things that still allow you to move after being hit are Instantaneous or Permanent, which are invalid targets.
I'm hard pressed to think of a round/level targeted spell that isn't Permanent or Instantaneous and allows the target free movement.
Entangle, I guess?
Furthermore with bloodlines and arcane schools you can't pick and choose the best powers from each one, you have to take them as a package deal (barring Wildblooded and Subschools, which are just sub-packages and still don't allow you to pick and choose powers freely). Only the best exploits matter because that's what every arcanist is going to have.
No, you can't pick and choose powers from Bloodlines and Arcane Schools. What an astute observation, you've pointed out the obvious.
1 + 1/2 Arcanist level each day is *more* than enough, unless your burning through 1-3 points each round.
At level 10, that's 6 points a day. Enough for 6 uses of your abilities. Less if you use some of the Greater Exploits, since a bunch of those cost two points.
1-3 points each round? Maybe not.
But I would assume you'd like to use your abilities in other manners, since a good number of them are more useful outside of combat than in it.
Gotta disagree with this one. They are full arcane casters. They don't even need class features to be the most powerful class ever, but since they do get class features anyway (and that's great, otherwise the class would be very bland) they should be compared to other full arcane casters (having the most powerful best spell list and the best casting system ever already makes this class far more powerful than Sorcerers)Arcanists are a serious contender for the newest "Top-God-class" of PF. They completely overshadow Sorcerers (and Wizards, during 12 out 20 levels, while still rivaling them at the other 8 levels).
Their casting alone makes them absurdly powerful. Their class features are really cool, but they do make the class even more unbalanced. Not that it really matters... The Arcanist's design completely ignores any semblance of balance anyway, so might as well add more cool stuff, I suppose.
That's a problem with the wonky casting, not the Exploits. The only way to fix the casting would be to drop the number of spells per day to a pretty much unusable level.
This guy looks pretty bada$$. I wish the other hybrids would get some of this kind of love.
I can't comment on the power level because I'm not a huge fan of straight casters, but I have heard metamagic can be a game changer.
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Ok, I have to say it, Spell Tinkerer is the most broken ability listed. There will need to be a limit placed on it and this is why:
I cast Endure Elements on myself, 24h duration.
I Immediately use Spell Tinkerer on it to increase the duration by 50% so now I have 36h left, I use it again and I have 54h, and again... and I use my spell slots for the day to get more points, and I keep doing it until Endure Elements is basically permanent.
And now that I have that, I'll do the same thing with Mage Armor.
Spells with a duration of minutes per level might be tougher, might have to drain a wand to get them past the 1 day threshold at lower levels.
Edit: I thought I'd add my thoughts on a solution.
Set a maximum duration for any spell to double the original duration. This still allows semi-permanent spells that are normally 24h duration but the Archanist now has to use a point or two a day to maintain it.
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That's a problem with the wonky casting, not the Exploits. The only way to fix the casting would be to drop the number of spells per day to a pretty much unusable level.Gotta disagree with this one. They are full arcane casters. They don't even need class features to be the most powerful class ever, but since they do get class features anyway (and that's great, otherwise the class would be very bland) they should be compared to other full arcane casters (having the most powerful best spell list and the best casting system ever already makes this class far more powerful than Sorcerers)
Arcanists are a serious contender for the newest "Top-God-class" of PF. They completely overshadow Sorcerers (and Wizards, during 12 out 20 levels, while still rivaling them at the other 8 levels).Their casting alone makes them absurdly powerful. Their class features are really cool, but they do make the class even more unbalanced. Not that it really matters... The Arcanist's design completely ignores any semblance of balance anyway, so might as well add more cool stuff, I suppose.
Yup. Having separate spell slots for spontaneous casting and prepared caster could work rather well, but this bizarre fusion of both spell casting styles is a huge middle finger to Sorcerers, Wizards and game balance.
When a class manages to complete obsolete one (possibly two) of the most powerful classes in the game, it's a rather obvious sign that balance wasn't even close to being a concern.
Arcanist did become very flavorful class, I truly congratulate the designers' ability to make it so interesting... But I'm still banning it from every game I GM.
Balance may not be the number 1 priority, but I'd rather not throw it out of the window either. Full-casters are already powerful enough.
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Stuff.Wizards study spells, Arcanists study magic.
What's the difference?
If you tried really really hard and did lots and lots of worldbuilding, designing a wizard culture and Arcanists as representing a magical counterculture, you could make that difference meaningful. For a setting-neutral core book, that's just not going to work.
1.) Metamagic is just a small variation on an existing spell. Not much research there. "My Fireball now burns things. How innovative."
The same level of variation the Arcanist is capable of achieving. This just isn't supported by the mechanics.
2.) If your GM lets you research a new spell he probably has a screw loose. Also, that is, again, studying SPELLS, not magic. It's the difference between studying theoretical physics and applied physics.
Arcanists use all the same spells and all the same abilities to modify those spells that Wizards have, except they get much better counterspelling/dispelling ability through their class features. If the Arcanist had exclusive access to the Words of Power mechanics or something I could see your point, but they don't. The distinction isn't supported by the mechanics.
Not particularly. Being able to carpet bomb an area with one of the better low level spells in the game (Stinking Cloud) with a higher DC than a Wizard could likely manage is pretty damn good, for example.
Immediate action counterspelling is vastly more powerful than anything you can do with alchemist discoveries.
You mean that ability that requires investment in a secondary stat for it to make any real difference in a combat situation, and requires the Arcanist (squishy, d6 HD 1/2 BaB class) to be adjacent to the effect or enemy?
Your definition of OP relies on the assumption that it works on the Arcanist himself, and that it would make a difference if it did. Most things that still allow you to move after being hit are Instantaneous or Permanent, which are invalid targets.
I'm hard pressed to think of a round/level targeted spell that isn't Permanent or Instantaneous and allows the target free movement.
Entangle, I guess?
Uhh, no? It's not until Stinking Cloud that you get the ability to completely shut down a character's abilities to make standard actions, which is all an arcanist needs since spell tinkering is Supernatural. It's insurance against anything short of dazing or stunning.
At level 10, that's 6 points a day. Enough for 6 uses of your abilities. Less if you use some of the Greater Exploits, since a bunch of those cost two points.
1-3 points each round? Maybe not.
But I would assume you'd like to use your abilities in other manners, since a good number of them are more useful outside of combat than in it.
I'd say if you're using more than 1-2 points per encounter, you're wasting them. You can afford to use a bit more later when you get the abilities that can recharge themselves.
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Ok, I have to say it, Spell Tinkerer is the most broken ability listed. There will need to be a limit placed on it and this is why:
I cast Endure Elements on myself, 24h duration.
I Immediately use Spell Tinkerer on it to increase the duration by 50% so now I have 36h left, I use it again and I have 54h, and again... and I use my spell slots for the day to get more points, and I keep doing it until Endure Elements is basically permanent.
And now that I have that, I'll do the same thing with Mage Armor.
Spells with a duration of minutes per level might be tougher, might have to drain a wand to get them past the 1 day threshold at lower levels.
Mmm. I could see that being a bother. A "This effect can only be used once per day per target," would be a good limit.
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If this is a general trend I think I may have learned something valuable about how this community understands balance.And I think we all just learned a lot about the Giant in the Park community's views on balance.
How about neither one of you draw conclusions and make snide comments based on a single post from either community?
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I somehow doubt that Mr. "I Get +10 To Initiative" Wizard is going to be feeling obsolete from this.
How about neither one of you draw conclusions and make snide comments based on a single post from either community?If this is a general trend I think I may have learned something valuable about how this community understands balance.And I think we all just learned a lot about the Giant in the Park community's views on balance.
This community would say that.
Name me off some debilitating conditions it would be OP to suppress for a round or two that still allow free movement.
Because I don't see anything in the description of Su abilities that lets you use them when normally you would not be able to. They don't provoke AoOs, can't be disrupted mid-use, and can't be Dispelled, thassit. Spell Tinkerer isn't always on, so that doesn't allow it.
If you get Hold Person'd, you're still screwed.
Now if your party Fighter gets Hold Person'd, you can help them. But I don't see how that's OP.
I somehow doubt that Mr. "I Get +10 To Initiative" Wizard is going to be feeling obsolete from this.
It's really +30 Initiative, since it's always a 20 by that point.
Long time lurker, first time poster
So here goes-
1. In regards to dimensional slide- does it act like dimension door in that I can't act after the move or can I slide and then cast?
2. In regards to disrupt spell and siphon spell- can I disrupt and siphon my own spell effect? Example I cast light cantrip ( or any other cantrip spell effect of equal CL)and then disrupt it and siphon it gaining 1 and poss 2 arcane points( minus 1 for disrupting it) for a potential net of 1 point? Seems like I could easily fill my reservoir pool w/ cantrips in minutes if this is possible
1. It doesn't say it acts as Dimension Door so I imagine you can act after you move.
2. RAW, yes. But I imagine that wasn't intended.
This community would say that.
I've been a member of the OotS-forum since September '08, Cheapy.
I somehow doubt that Mr. "I Get +10 To Initiative" Wizard is going to be feeling obsolete from this.
My Ms. "I get +10 to Initiative" Shaman would like to speak to you. Shes a mean dwarf lady.
I love the flavor of the class! Balance will depend on play testing, but I like the initial reading...
This community would say that.I've been a member of the OotS-forum since September '08, Cheapy.
Well that one too, then.
But you make a good point.
This community would say that.I've been a member of the OotS-forum since September '08, Cheapy.Well that one too, then.
But you make a good point.
Cheers!
For what it's worth I know there are some OotS posters who can be very outspoken when it comes to tier 1 casters specifically and Paizo in general - I just wanted to illustrate that the majority of the OotS posters try to keep an open mind and are just as excited over this playtest as the rest of you :)
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I somehow doubt that Mr. "I Get +10 To Initiative" Wizard is going to be feeling obsolete from this.
I wouldn't be surprised. Unless the Wizard is particularly clever incredibly insightful, at 1st, 19th and every even-numbered level, the Arcanist's advantage and flexibility are far more valuable, IMHO. It's not like you need Initiative +40 to go first. A +15 is usually good enough. Besides, if you really need to compare it to what is probably the best school power there is, that just shows how strong Arcanists are in comparison.
At odd-numbered levels, Wizards have the advantage of being 1 spell level ahead.
Sorcerers, OTOH, simply can't compete with Arcanists. Their extra 1~2 spell slots per spell level are not nearly as powerful as having access to your whole spell list and being able to cast them spontaneously.
The fact that Arcanists have many more skill points and much better class features doesn't help either... Especially since they don't really need Cha.
I'll playtest this class again this weekend, just out of fairness, but I doubt it will prove to be any thing other than extremely powerful.
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Name me off some debilitating conditions it would be OP to suppress for a round or two that still allow free movement.
Because I don't see anything in the description of Su abilities that lets you use them when normally you would not be able to. They don't provoke AoOs, can't be disrupted mid-use, and can't be Dispelled, thassit. Spell Tinkerer isn't always on, so that doesn't allow it.
If you get Hold Person'd, you're still screwed.
Supernatural abilities, like spell-like abilities, require no verbal or somatic components: You can use them if you're paralyzed. This is precisely why I suggested that you give verbal/somatic components to spell tinkering.
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Sorcerers, OTOH, simply can't compete with Arcanists. Their extra 1~2 spell slots per spell level are not nearly as powerful as having access to your whole spell list and being able to cast them spontaneously.
Mr. "I cast one spell to have whatever spell I need right now" Half Elf Sorcerer would like a word with you.
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Sorcerers, OTOH, simply can't compete with Arcanists. Their extra 1~2 spell slots per spell level are not nearly as powerful as having access to your whole spell list and being able to cast them spontaneously.Mr. "I cast one spell to have whatever spell I need right now" Half Elf Sorcerer would like a word with you.
So Arcanists are balanced because they are not as good as what may be the most broken loophole in the rules?
I see...
Sorcerers, OTOH, simply can't compete with Arcanists. Their extra 1~2 spell slots per spell level are not nearly as powerful as having access to your whole spell list and being able to cast them spontaneously.Mr. "I cast one spell to have whatever spell I need right now" Half Elf Sorcerer would like a word with you.So Arcanists are balanced because they are not as good as what may be the most broken loophole in the rules?
I see...
Aren't full casters always the folks breaking and making loopholes in the universe?
Getting exploits at odd levels instead of even seems, er, odd. Everyone else gets their tricks at even levels, so there's precedent. Plus you get feats at odd levels, and "something at every level" is more fun (to me) than "twice the stuff on some levels, nothing at others". On the other hand, you get new spell levels at even levels, so I guess you're alternating between spell levels and new capabilities. Hrm. I dunno, still feels off, but I haven't played it.
Fair point. However, this way you get a new thing (other than the odd level feat) to play with every level.
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Aren't full casters always the folks breaking and making loopholes in the universe?
So your point is "class X is balanced with class Y, despite being completely superior to Y 99.99% of the time because class Y's best possible trick ever, which also happens to be the most broken rule exploit in the game, is still better than class X"?
That's not a good argument.
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Aren't full casters always the folks breaking and making loopholes in the universe?
They are, but comparing them to Divination super initiative or one race's most powerful exploit is not a balancing point unless you only want Diviners and P. Surge Half Elves in your game.
Something that I'd like to point out is that these casters are PERFECT to take Eldritch Heritage to even swipe what they're missing from the Sorcerer's class. They can quite literally pick the bones of the Sorcerer clean.