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Tactical Drongo wrote:

Or another possibility to look at it:

A primary skill is whatever skill a monster/noch needs to serve it's primary role/function

Iron Heart wrote:
Yes, thank you, that is what says you should judge to determine if something becomes a primary or secondary skill, but what do you do with that information? Make the same gut calls you were going to make before?

In all seriousness, the release date information is some useful context, thank you Mathmuse. I'll be sure to tell my friend about it. However, Dark Archive is a main-line release from July of 2022. They should have been able to work with the new verbiage by then, right?

To anyone reading the thread and thinking of commenting: Please make sure you're aware that I am not a fool. I have the Core Rulebook, GameMastery Guide, and Lost Omens Character Guide, among other books. I have read them at least once in the relevant sections. I know what the guidelines for creating creatures say about skills. That part is not the part in contention. I am not a newbie GM looking for help making baby's first monster and would not like to be treated as such, I'm just trying to understand the intent behind the design using these words as if they were capital-G capital-T Game Terms, so I can thoughtfully decide how to use it in my home game.


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Yes, thank you, that is what says you should judge to determine if something becomes a primary or secondary skill, but what do you do with that information? Make the same gut calls you were going to make before?


You're dodging the question. I understand the point of them. But what does primary or secondary skill even mean? Nothing?


A friend brought it to my attention that the NPC guidelines in Lost Omens Character Guide include mention of new kinds of skill-having for non-player characters, noting that templates may list skills to add to the statblock, either as primary skills (if you have reason to believe the creature would be good at it) or secondary skills (if you don't). Dark Archive has something similar.

But what does it mean to be a primary skill or a secondary skill? Is there a canonical answer as to what they correspond to in the Designing Creatures section of the GameMastery Guide, where the terminology is low/moderate/high/extreme? It's frustrating seeing a third angle of describing how good a creature is at something, after TEML/LMHE, and to not even see what the writers mean by it.


Aether Barrage could be nice now, especially given Steel's Betrayal (feedback on which was given upthread, and seemingly missed).

Not sure I'm a fan of a potentially useless third selection on Aether Barrage if you still want the fourth (which you do, regardless of your Charisma). I suppose Strength builds are already using Embodiment of Aether, but Dexterity builds are probably not, and even then, Embodiment of Aether only maybe applies its effect in that case (depending on whether Aether Barrage 3rd Selection is "your aether pulse" for the feat's declaration of what it applies to).
If you're using Embodiment of Aether to qualify for Aetheric Armor (a very handy feat), I can see it, but it's still then a feat taken for two questionable values (as a prerequisite and for maybe a few points of damage over the minimum +0) rather than one or two really solid ones.

As for the final benefit of Embodiment of Aether, does this effect stack additively (like normal game math, for 0%) or multiplicatively (for a total 25% cost) when an indebted creature dies and is raised with their soul gem?


A wording suggestion for zones.
"Some clauses have the zone descriptor noted in their description. These clauses create unique area effects that cannot overlap with another zone. If a new zone completely covers another zone, the older zone ends. Otherwise, where there's an overlap, the newer zone takes effect, suppressing older zones in its area."
As well, it might behoove you to remove the term 'zone' from the Air Lock clause, or make it a Zone clause.


Mihael, you might not be following the game rules. It goes like this: You spend a free action to activate aether channel or aether rounds. What next?
Let's say you spend your standard action to use the "Attack" action on page 182 of the Core Rulebook ("Making an attack is a standard action"). You get Vital Strike to modify your single basic weapon attack (you don't make any others unless an ability says you do), and add +6d8 damage from your pulse shape.
How about you make a full attack and (because it's not the "Attack" action) Vital Strike does not apply? You still get to add your, say, +6d8 damage from your pulse shape to each successful hit (rather than just the one).


For the Fetch court fey pact clause, I wouldn't call a duration becoming "instantaneous" an increase, per se, even if it does lead to harder-to-reverse effects than "permanent".


I ask anyone that hasn't already: Please go play Undertale. You might see some spoilers. It's available at Undertale.com with a demo if you want a taste for the gameplay and writing.

As for this update: What an amazing foreword.

Balefire Infusion:
Still feeling that converting the entirety of aether pulse damage to balefire should keep that use from counting against the limit of Empower Spell-Like Ability, or else the uses past the first three should carry a higher cost. An avowed who pays burn for seven invokes in a day, then uses three basic blasts after that pays 7 burn total and gets 7 blasts' worth of irresistable fire-like damage across 10 blasts, while an avowed who doesn't pay burn for the first three invokes on otherwise basic blasts but also pays for 7 extra invokes still pays 7 burn, getting the equivalent of 8 blasts' worth of balefire across those same 10 blasts.
This could all be negated by the fact that it's suboptimal in the moment while you're rationing out the feat's uses like that, but it feels wrong all the same.
You could also stand to be entirely unambiguous with the 10th level upgrade by saying "the avowed gains Quicken Spell-Like Ability (aether pulse) as a bonus feat, using it in exactly the same manner (including converting his aether pulse's damage if he accepts burn, and accepting burn to use it after running out of uses for the day)," if you're not going to do anything about this.

An avowed's flight from Ascension is Supernatural and makes no mention of wings, but how friggin' cool would it be to have the option of wings? (Tip: Unlike 3.5, the rules for flying give only three solid differences for winged flight: Failed-by-5 checks send you plummeting, damage forces a check against losing altitude, and colliding with an object forces a check against plummeting. Other than that and the obvious effect of paralysis, it's up to individual effects that distinguish them.)


Ooh, fully bookmarked. I love your work even just for that, Forrest. I especially adore the heart's burning intensity that a Self-pact avowed with Balefire Infusion inflicts on people. The only thing I find hinky about that class feature is that the three free invokes are used up first even if you don't use the feat for free (such as by paying to convert the damage to irresistible).
• Steel's Betrayal is plain hilarious.
• Potential better wording in Spirited Swordsmanship is "When used in this way, your Charisma modifier to damage is multiplied by 1/2 for a shape wielded in an off-hand and multiplied by 1-1/2 for one wielded in two hands."
• Lingering Pulse is missing a few words in the core of its effect (filling the area created).
• Here's a catch: Dreamscarred Press is singular (being a company, a collection of people), so you'd refer to Dreamscarred Press's Ultimate Psionics, barring more pressing style reasons to do otherwise.
• GM guidance question: Does a deaf oracle/avowed (who "casts all of her spells as if they were modified by the Silent Spell feat") still use verbal components for her clauses?


I was skimming Avowed 1 and thought I should note this: disease application in the otyugh pact doesn't have a range or targeting rules.


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Forrestfire wrote:
Wanted to let people know that I'm stuck in bed after picking up an illness of some sort over Thanksgiving, which might delay Avowed 2 by a couple days. It'll happen shortly, and I'm sorry about that. November's been a hectic month.

Rough, mate. Hope you recover quickly.


"When a character takes a level of the avowed class, they have the option to immediately retrain any number of their previous levels (including skill ranks and feats, if necessary) into avowed levels at no cost."
Position suggests this is part of working with the GM to make a more involved pact, rather than a general rule. Please clarify in future releases.

Physical contracts: There's a catch-all magic school. Transmutation. I mean, uh, Universal.

Strength of Body (Self 8): "If you've selected aether channel 3 times, you gain both the benefits of the haste effect and the shape's effect stack, unlike normal, so long as you only make unarmed strike attacks during your full-attack action."


Only got the chance to look at nation pact. Social studies is a good skillset for the patriot. True patriot is cool and weird and truenamery, good job.


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I'm Hiding In Your Closet wrote:
"Evil mind-plagues" are a thing, my gift of resistance to them is a phenomenon demonstrated by practice and observed on the wider scale by science

Okay, what?

I'm Hiding In Your Closet wrote:
"Evil mind-plagues" are a thing, and then there's "optimization"

Okay, WHAT?


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Bear in mind, guys, this is exactly why they have open playtests. So the players can tell them what's going wrong, and they can react before it's published properly.


shory wrote:
Whether 'You roll a Skill check that you have spent time and money improving to counter something 95% of the time' or 'You counter something 95% of the time' is better design, I won't get into that, seems to be just taste.

Let's just make those 95s 100s instead. It doesn't particularly matter.


Aratrok wrote:
A Warlord, Harbinger, or Awakened Blade only needs a swift action.

Sure, but that's a swift action they're not using to boost, change stances, or use a feat or class feature, or a swift action they can't use because they just used a counter (remember the swift/immediate action bottleneck!).

Aratrok wrote:
Lightning Recovery can let you nova on an important maneuver on consecutive rounds if necessary.

Sure, but then you spent one or more feats that you could have spent on something actually fun and interesting.


It's worth noting that maneuvers are, by default, a 1/encounter thing, and if you want constant, reliable access to them, you have to spend actions that you could be using on other combat options (including other maneuvers) to refresh them; and that's IF you have a maneuver recovery method at all (see classes like Mystic who have their maneuvers granted to them at random).


Kelsey Arwen MacAilbert wrote:
And yes, I probably will do a gun archetype eventually, because this, and I do not believe in gun archetypes that don't give dex to damage.

I'm not sure if I'm the only one getting this, but that link brings me to the flickr main page. I did manage to find the post you intended to link by cutting off "/in/pool-pith_helmets/", though.

Solid class! I'd let someone play it in my own games, given that clarification of its identity.


Kelsey Arwen MacAilbert wrote:
It does allow you to make untrained Profession checks.

This is different from making Profession checks as if you were trained. Anyone can make an untrained Profession check, but "untrained laborers and assistants (that is, characters without any ranks in Profession) earn an average of 1 silver piece per day."


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Few wording questions: Does Participant Observer allow you to roll Perform checks with twice your Charisma modifier and your Intelligence modifier? Does it let you make Profession checks as if you were not untrained?

And now, an access concern: From what I've seen, Scarlet Throne is the warlord's Thing, and using it in other classes is frowned upon. Would you say swashbuckling is a part of this class's identity?

And finally, a concern with the capstone: You know you're breaking the "rule" that you can't add your ability score to a statistic more than once, right? (Personally, I'm opposed to that FAQ, but if I don't bring it up, someone else will.)

Other than those concerns, I like it. Pretty nice "clever vagabond" identity.


Skylancer4 wrote:
Iron Heart wrote:
Unfortunately, it's pretty hard to have standard starting wealth when starting wealth is expressed in dice. Perhaps it's meant to be average?
I'm 99% sure the average amount stated in the class write up is what you should use, but it should be noted organized play starts all characters off with the same amount regardless of class (150gp).

Starting wealth isn't in the class write-up. It's in a table at the start of the chapter, which lists dice amounts by class, and has an average column. Makes no mention of 'standard', so I assume it means average, but I still recommend the contest say 'average'.


Unfortunately, it's pretty hard to have standard starting wealth when starting wealth is expressed in dice. Perhaps it's meant to be average?


These are things I need to come back to at some point for my own games.

I seem to recall a houserule that at 3rd level and every 3 levels thereafter, one ability score was chosen to gain a +2 bonus, and all previous bonuses from that incremented by +2, to make ability score items not a thing.


IRC wrote:

3:03:31 PM <Branches> I don't have an account at Paizo

3:03:46 PM <Branches> Sorry

3:02:02 PM <Branches> Generally this kind of stuff goes in a racial archetype. Albeit it can be a "free" archetype like Qinggong Monk.
3:02:41 PM <Branches> Or a hex that teaches you druid spells maybe?
3:03:24 PM <Branches> I think I've seen precedent somewhere on the SRD though

3:08:31 PM <Branches> There's pretty specific bonuses, like aasimar summoners giving their eidolons DR/evil I guess
3:09:36 PM <Branches> Kobold fighters get a pseudo-sneak-attack with fewer restrictions
3:12:29 PM <Branches> I've written oracle FCBs that grant revelations from a specific mystery regardless of your chosen one, and I know other people who've done the same


Elricaltovilla wrote:
Iron Heart wrote:
Oh, having looked at the Style feats, I'm liking the look of Mithral Current, but... the third feat encourages the use of mithral weapons specifically. Are there any options in Mithral Current that make your weapons silver/mithral?
There are many, many maneuvers in Mithral Current that allow your weapon to count as silver. At least 1/3, closer to 1/2.

Oh, great! Can't wait to play with that, then!


Oh, having looked at the Style feats, I'm liking the look of Mithral Current, but... the third feat encourages the use of mithral weapons specifically. Are there any options in Mithral Current that make your weapons silver/mithral?


I absolutely love playing my Silver Crane warlord, and I'm in the process of designing my own base class and disciplines using the system. I can't wait to see what's added with this release!


DrDeth wrote:
Since attacks have to go against [SR] and cure spells rarely do...

I don't mind you playing with houserules, but please don't bring it into the discussion forum without being upfront about it when making claims about play.

Unless you meant to say nobody actually goes for SR because lowering it takes a standard action you can't use when unconscious.


I seem to recall it being that feats are, unless otherwise stated, Extraordinary, and that an Extraordinary ability is supposed to let a character do something, well, extraordinary. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.


sunshadow21 wrote:
Scavion wrote:
Marthkus wrote:
I do find that following the rules tends to limit caster power.

I find following the rules plays exactly into spellcaster's hands.

The rules say you can make tons of simulacrum of yourself.

I want to play under the DM that gives you the resources to be even begin to do this, since all of the ones I've played under tend to be much tougher in terms of what resources the party is given to work with.

If you read back to Anzyr's post earlier in the thread, I think he also says something about a billion free instances of simulacrum.


That's not my concern, actually. If you would address the specific example in the first post (bonus points for proper references to the rulebooks), that would be swell.


It would be nice if you folks looked at the book once in a while.

While we're at this, let's pretend a character has a way to cut down on required rest, perhaps a ring of sustenance. How does that interact with this all?


I'm having trouble finding the Alchemist's equivalent of this line here.

Magus wrote:
A magus may know any number of spells. He must choose and prepare his spells ahead of time by getting 8 hours of sleep and spending 1 hour studying his spellbook.

The Magus is the closest thing to Wizard casting, and still shows you its limitations. The Alchemist does not list those limitations. Really, Alchemist doesn't seem to want to be another ritualistic spellcaster under the standard spell preparation scheme, what with its field mixing time of 1 minute as opposed to the 15 it normally takes if you want just a single spell?


Beyond the minimum Intelligence score and class level requirements, how often can an Alchemist mix a non-infusion extract using the same slot? Assuming an instantaneous-effect extract is mixed at midnight in a 24-hour day, when can it be prepared again if it is consumed at 1 PM? 11 PM? (A consideration to include is that arcane and divine spells cast in the last 8 hours count against ready slots.)

Can you ever reclaim a slot used to mix an infusion?


There's a bit of an argument at my table about a multiclass character who's been preparing his wizard spells as if they were magus spells, so I want to know, is it possible to prepare shield (learned at character creation in the wizard's spellbook) as if it were a magus spell?


master_marshmallow wrote:
Because rolling and point buy are the only stat generation methods that exist?

There is also array and deciding "Oh, he's a bit clumsy, so lower Dexterity, maybe." One of those is manageable, but provides less variance than all the others.


Also, check this out.


Cthulhudrew wrote:
Just thinking out loud here- obviously haven't had a chance to test anything yet- but I'm wondering if Spell Tinkerer might need to be done as an opposed check versus the DC of the spell if the spell effect is not one created by the Arcanist? I'm not sure a 1st level Arcanist should be able to suppress the Hallucinatory Terrain effect of a 20th level Wizard, for instance.

Minor terminology quibble here: an opposed check involves both parties (not adventuring parties, but entities) comparing dice.


Oh. In addition, you can't multiclass into or out of Shaman's Path, but that'd be silly, since it's a free multiclass anyway.


Those are the only two tracks you can't sacrifice another track to gain at the moment, and you can't trade them away, either. In other instances, you trade your Slow track away, say, and gain circles in the new track as if it was your Slow track.


Tim4488 wrote:
There's no disadvantage to using Trip or Disarm until you have 2 attacks, so combat maneuvers are a much bigger part of the game at lower levels (and for Monks, at all levels).

Monks, because they eventually get the ability to replace attacks they make with combat maneuvers (which they get more of as they level). 's fun stuff.


Spontaneous casting, and you learn 3 spells for every 'circle' you have in a spellcasting track. There are 7 levels (circles) of spells.
(There is a two-feat chain that lets you convert spell slots into spell points (2 per circle of the spell) that you can use to cast spells you could have cast 5 levels ago, at a rate of 1 spell point per circle of the spell.)
The game as a whole operates off of circles, a term used to refer to the 'weight class' of a given ability. Rage grants you +1 to attack and damage per circle in the Path of Rage track, for example, and Assassin grants you Sneak Attack equal to +1d6 per circle in the track. They also grant you more benefits, but I can't remember them off the top of my head.

Spells are refreshed after every Scene, which is essentially how long you can go without a break.
There are two spell lists, tactician and shaman. Shaman is more about healing, damage, positive/negative energy and buffs, while Tactician is about battlefield control and buffs.
Some tracks give spell-like abilities, like Elementalist (pick a type of energy, and be able to blast with it from the get-go. Energy balls, cones of energy, you'll get these), Necromancer (vampiric touch, speak with dead, chill touch, all that badness), and Arcane Secrets (at-will tricks that are hard to place).
There is a track that lets you channels SLAs you have (spell-like abilities, you'll be seeing a lot of this in the system) through a magical melee weapon.


Well, there's no piling on so many levels in five different classes. You build a class, and barring a feat, you stick with that class to 20. The good news is, you can multiclass, by trading out one set of class features for another. Say you want to be a paladin, but with sneak attack. That's entirely doable. And if you take a special race, you can trade out these ability tracks for racial tracks, like Dragon, which grants natural armor and HP bonuses, among other things.
There are Key Offensive and Defensive Modifiers, which you add to attack/damage and AC/HP. Paladins, for example, use Strength as their bonus to hit and damage, and Charisma as their ability to ignore/soak damage, whereas a Monk uses Wisdom to hit things, and Constitution to defend.
Saves have been bumped up on both advancement rate and DCs (no more 'spell level', half character level instead).
All additional attack from Base Attack Bonus are made at just a flat -5, and full-round actions are not a thing, so a level 20 character with good BAB can, as a standard action, make four attacks, at +20/15/15/15 (plus KOM, item bonus and other modifiers (no flanking or other situational modifiers)).
Base Attack Bonus is added to AC, too.
The armor types are heavy armor (+2 AC, -1 Reflex) and light armor (+1 AC). Magic armor has a value of 2-6, although you only ever have one magic item slot that can handle a bonus of 5 or 6 from armor.
Magic item slots! You can have as many or as few magic items as you want, but you can only equip so many. You can trade the vast majority of your item slots (including the highest-level slot) for another set of class features.
There are, generally speaking, no class features that don't affect creatures in some way. So, no trapfinding, but there is, say, move-action or always-on invisibility (both Extraordinary, by the way).
Oh, and non-casters can finally have nice things and go beyond human limits. Magic doesn't rule all. Ninjas get infallible invisibility (Ex) as a capstone, for example.

This is just what comes to mind, of course. There's more, for sure.


Yeah, played a couple games. It's balanced, but varied. I built a manifestation of a particular sun goddess at level 20 (max in the system) and she wasn't unbeatable, but she wasn't weak by any means. My biggest complaint is that it doesn't achieve the clarity it strives for in its current state, with stuff about racial tracks.