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If bringing your reservoir up to full is going to require expending resources of the monetary kind, and at high levels it certainly will, then some amount of carry over needs to occur. Even if it's a feat or an exploit an ability to carry up to half or a third (your level) of your maximum over would go a long way towards making the fun but maybe less useful pool abilities viable.
The problem.with comparing these arcanist blasts to the wizard ones is that the wiz's come with a separate pool, the arcanists is having to look at cannibalizing spells for this.
OH! it just hit me. Deeds. Make the blasts more like a deed. As long as the arcanist has 1 point in their reservoir they can perform the selected blast exploit. Then you could have it deal +X damage where X is the points in the reservoir instead of level to maybe lower abuse. Or something like that.
Maybe half X so its not so big a number that you just forget about spending points and blow everything up, but its still an incentive to build up a pool and causes tactical point spending.
Perhaps I can imagine a version (or archetype) of this class that gets something like bard or inquisitor spell progression, but in return gets a point pool of int+arcanist level that starts off at full every day. That seems roughly balanced to me.That is actually horrifically weaker unless you really have fantastic things coming out of that pool.
Recall how swagga those spell buffs are. Low level spells like hold person are powered up considerably with higher save DCs. Also: I would only recommend that if the blasts and stuff were powered up too, I suppose.
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If bringing your reservoir up to full is going to require expending resources of the monetary kind, and at high levels it certainly will, then some amount of carry over needs to occur. Even if it's a feat or an exploit an ability to carry up to half or a third (your level) of your maximum over would go a long way towards making the fun but maybe less useful pool abilities viable.I am not sure which ones you think are "fun but less useful". Even at level 20 the blasts are totally overshadowed by something as simple as Scorching Ray which you have in abundance. I am not sure who these people who think plinking away for basically no effect actually are.
Well, most of the blasts have a secondary effect and sometimes a save might be preferable to a touch attack, but you are essentially right.
Oh wait. Oh my god. I was not reading close enough to realize that the blasts had a touch attack AND a save. Jesus. That is worthless.
This class is hugely underpowered, I think. Or at the bare minimum: blasts are a nonoption.
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So there are still people who think this is overpowered, myself included. Decreasing the spells per day helps a little, but it's using a club where a scalpel will do. If spells per day are low enough even the most skilled players won't want to play an arcanist, but the less skilled ones will be messed up by the change far before that. Instead any nerf should try to hit the arcanist in the versatility where it will most hurt the skilled players while significantly but not critically impacting the less skilled ones. Once that's been done to some degree you can also start buffing the arcanist with things that will be a great asset to less skilled players but not for more skilled ones. Here is one such system that I think would work well, though it is certainly not the only option.(I waive all rights to this if there is some legal reason you aren't supposed to use direct suggestions as I have seen suggested elsewhere.)
Base Principles:
The Arcanist works not with rituals and routines of magic but with its underlying principles, building a grand unifying principle from the base upwards. While this does grant them the unparalleled versatility for which they are known it also leaves gaps in their knowledge which other casters can more easily address by simply using different tools.
At first level the Arcanist must select three restricted schools of magic. One of those schools must be either conjuration or transmutation. Arcanists who selected conjuration must select two of Evocation, Divination and Necromancy as additional restricted schools while those who selected transmutation must select two of Abjuration, Enchantment and Illusion.
Arcanists who prepare spells from their restricted schools must use two preparation slots instead of one and pay a number of points from their arcane resevoir equal to the level of the spell.
<Insert more wizard copypasta here>So the Arcanist would be a full spell level behind a wizard in at least one, and probably two, important school and would be mutilating their spells...
nope. If anything as a more experienced player I would just play another class, and if the class is worse for me to get use out it, then a less experienced player will likely have more trouble getting it to work well.
Requiring a higher level of system mastery for a class is NEVER better for a newer player.
edit: This basically seems like an across the board fail for various reasons mentioned by others.
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As a matter of fact, I did. Take the Sorcerer (which is not broken)I think we've discerned the heart of our disagreement. I'd rather firmly place the 9-level casting classes in the 'broken' department, especially after Pathfinder went and gave them Real Class Features, which they were rather sorely not in need of.
In that case most of the community disagrees with you, and your balance and most everyone else's are at opposite ends of the spectrum.
Broken across the board would have to mean most people can't deal with them. So far they are allowed in the majority of games, and enjoyed. That points to "not broken".
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This class is hugely underpowered, I think. Or at the bare minimum: blasts are a nonoption.I don't think you can call any class which has 9th level casting underpowered. The rest of its features are extremely strong. The blasts are utterly pointless. Fortunately there are enough decent exploits that you can completely ignore them and use your pool points on useful things like spell DC boosting, freebie teleportation or counterspells.
Well, I guess this is part of my problem with the class as it stands. I just want to see exploit powers that are worth a damn even in the absence of other spells to cast. The arcanist has the fewest spells of any full casting class besides the druid (which it ties) and is unrivaled in fewest spells readied per day.
So it needs to get versatility other ways and it is being sold as the class that gets the most varied applications of its limited spell resources. All it seems to be able to do with those resources seems to be teleport 10 foot increments as a move action or counter spells or power up spells (which requires that the arcanist actually still have spells left and the wizard can kind of do this with favored spell schools and what-have-you).
And I only think it is underpowered compared to wizards and sorcerors. A level 20 arcanist will still likely wipe the floor with non-full-casting classes.
How do we determine the will save DC for Spell Tinkerer. Is it Int or Cha based?
If this has been answered could someone provide a link or post the wording?
edit: The same question also applies to "spell thief".
Thanks Andreww.
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Why would it change anything, unless they're also immune to being Entangled?
Icy Tomb (Su): Whenever the arcanist uses the ice missile exploit, she can expend two points from her arcane reservoir instead of one. If she does, the target is coated in a rime of ice if it fails its saving throw. This ice causes the target to be entangled and take 1 point of Dexterity damage at the start of its turn. The target can break free from the ice as a standard action by making a Strength check with a DC equal to 10 + the arcanist’s Charisma modifier. If the target takes more than 10 points of fire damage from a single attack, the ice melts and the effect ends. The arcanist must have the ice missile arcanist exploit before selecting this exploit.What is the effect of this ability against a target that is immune from cold damage?
There are 3 effects
- damaged by cold - negated by cold immunity- entangled by ice - non modified by cold immunity
- dexterity damage from ??undetermined source?? - it is frostbite? sharp ice damaging your limbs? other magical source with no relation with the kind of attack?
If it is a form of frostbite cold resistance will negate it, if it is something different, it would be beneficial do define what is it.
It is similar to the undefined parts of Ice tomb.
If the creature is unable to break the ice, how long it will last?
Strength check are a check, so no automatic success on a 20. A weak creature, like a will o wisp, cold be easily trapped in the ice forever as thing stand now, regardless of the external temperature.
Similarly creature with low dexterity could become comatose relatively fast, especially if multiple attacks stacks. As the source of the dexterity damage is undefined and normally damage from attacks stack, it could reasonable to assume that multiple entanglements from this ability would stack the dexterity damage.
Those exploits that do elemental damage or worth spending any points on. I am guessing the idea was to ensure they did not overtake actual spells, but they do need to do more damage, even if it means spending more spell points.
Things brings another question up-->Would it be so bad if they were to do damage equal to spells.
Suggestion: 1 points lets you use the blast as currently written. 2 points allows you to use them at 1dx per caster level.
The point of the blasts is not power, it's to give the characters something to do that is thematically appropriate.
Wizards aren't throwing firebolts because firebolts are powerful--they're throwing firebolts because it feels more wizardy to use a firebolt than a crossbow.
Arcanists pointlessly lack this option. Giving them a worthwhile low level blast will not make them stronger, but it will make them more fun, because shooting arcane energy is more fun than shooting a crossbow for an arcane casting class.
This. Thank you MPL!
I played a Sage Sorcerer from levels 1 to 6 in a campaign, and found myself heavily using the force missile that Sages get. A crossbow bolt averages a bit more damage for the first couple of levels, but the damage was less reliable and just plain not as fun. I'd like to see the Arcanist get something like this.
At the same time, I'd like this ability to not be as powerful as first level spells (except at level 1, when a few things do 1d4 damage). Ideally, the ability would be stronger than the always on cantrips but weaker than level 1 spells. So I'd be careful with anything that replaces a spell (like the vanish ability proposed above).
I do like the proposal to change the existing blasts to an always on (or separate pool) of weak blasts with the ability to use an arcane point to 'power them up' to the present versions. Also, I think the present versions should be modified to do full damage upon hitting touch AC and just have the saving throw cancel out the debuffing effect. Even then, the debuffing blasts are going to need something to boost their DC or nobody is going to spend a precious arcane point on it. If you want to keep the arcane reservoir very small, then I think it becomes worth it to ditch the save altogether. If the arcane reservoir is beefed up a bit, then the DC of the blasts can be more like 10 + level + (Cha x 2).
On a related note, perhaps the pure damage blast option can be moved up to 1d8 per 2 levels instead of 1d6?
Is reducing its number of prepared spells/day on the table as well? Personally I think that's the real problem, and not its number of spell slots, especially because you can use things that modify a sorcerer's spells known to augment an arcanist's spells prepared.
This is what I initially wanted also. They could have kept the spells per day. Hopefully I can get a playtest in by the 17th to see if I am correct or not.
There are 3 effects
- damaged by cold - negated by cold immunity
- entangled by ice - non modified by cold immunity
- dexterity damage from ??undetermined source?? - it is frostbite? sharp ice damaging your limbs? other magical source with no relation with the kind of attack?If it is a form of frostbite cold resistance will negate it, if it is something different, it would be beneficial do define what is it.
RAW-wise, it doesn't matter. It leads to some silly things like a creature with Cold Resistance not faring too well in a blizzard (because last I checked Cold resistance didn't give any specific resistance to cold weather effects, though maybe I'm wrong).
Flavor-wise it's a bit baffling, true, but that's spells for you.
It is similar to the undefined parts of Ice tomb.
If the creature is unable to break the ice, how long it will last?
Strength check are a check, so no automatic success on a 20. A weak creature, like a will o wisp, cold be easily trapped in the ice forever as thing stand now, regardless of the external temperature.
Yeah. I don't have as much of an issue with this one. It is magic ice after all, who says it has to melt?
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I guess most of us think the Pathfinder setting is more renaissance than modern. And back then, the sum of all knowledge was such that a single person could have a good sense of most of it. That is why we talk of renaissance men and exalt the great names from this time. Today the sum of all knowledge is such that even a genius can only grasp a little bit of it. Not so in heroic fantasy.
Arcanists are the renaissance men of magic, wizards are the scientists/engineers, and sorcerers the end users or battlefield specialists.
The mechanics don't support this. Wizards have huge heaping piles of skill points due to their high INT, and not much worthwhile to spend it on. Most wizards max out their knowledge skills and become exactly the "Renaissance men" you describe.
Once again, I'm not seeing how the current flavor of the arcanist is supposed to be anything but "Super Wizard."
If people are still hung up on the thematic angle, here's a nice example.
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ar·can·ist [ahr-key-nist] Show IPA
noun
a person professing special secret knowledge concerning ceramics, especially concerning the making of porcelain.
Your arcanist must now take ranks in Craft(Porcelain).
Just a minor note - the base cost for an Arcane Reservoir point isn't 75gp (half of the 150gp cost for a 2nd-level scroll), it's 100gp. The class gets spells as per a Sorcerer, so it would use the Sorcerer column on the base scroll cost table (200gp for a 2nd-level scroll) to scribe scrolls. Similarly, 5 charges off of a 2nd-level wand crafted by an Arcanist would cost 300gp, not 225gp.
Maybe we can look forward to a mana cookies type of magical item? And a regenerating Grandma's magical cookie jar for those arcanist kids on the go.
If people are still hung up on the thematic angle, here's a nice example.
So there's a sequel to The Changeling?
Huh.
I guess most of us think the Pathfinder setting is more renaissance than modern. And back then, the sum of all knowledge was such that a single person could have a good sense of most of it. That is why we talk of renaissance men and exalt the great names from this time. Today the sum of all knowledge is such that even a genius can only grasp a little bit of it. Not so in heroic fantasy.
Hmmm. The sum of all knowledge has not increased so much in the last 500 years that it is suddenly insurmountably impossible for society to produce Renaissance men.
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okay I definitely like this a lot
of the normal exploits the dimensional slide, counterspell, and meta mixing are the most interesting (though metamixing is unclear on if you have to know the feat you're applying...)
I honestly feel that I should be able to doe more with spell tinkering.
you know... something more like the "hacker of magic" described. as it stands you can only extend, suppress, shorten, or dispel stuff. I would like a feature or archetype that can add some sort of "debuff metamagic" and tack it on to an opponent's spells. something like attaching a save or forcing a touch attack for the spell cast (by making the magic essence easily visible and thus avoidable), forcing the magic to target a different character, reducing area on AoE spells, changing the type of energy damage. after all I would think that would be more fitting for a magical hacker. I think it would at least make a great archetype.
dancing lightning is a little underwhelming imo
forgive me for bringing it up but I found this line in burning flame funny:
"The fire can attempt a Reflex saving throw as a full-round action to extinguish the flames"
phew, good thing the creature I set on fire doesn't get to save... though perhaps they will use dominate on the fire to make it put itself out?
just wanted to point out that disrupt spell doesn't specify what type of action this one would be however i suspect it would be a immediate action
anyways I like the flavor more and I'm interested in seeing how this develops
essentially have to agree that the blast exploits aren't worth it and should at least be on par with lvl 1 spells (esp considering that with consume item I essentially need to consume 2nd level spells to power them)
are there any plans for feats to expand the reservior and/or add an extra exploit?
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I think this thread only shows that we as individuals have to find our own thematic way to look at the class. Some people have claimed in the past that the sorc and wizard are too much alike. I think the class plays differently enough from both the sorc and wiz to have its own identity, but obviously others disagree. My concern now is with the mechanics.
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Was the reason really "this is too strong"? I thought it was "This is as boring as watching paint dry"?Both. I'll take an interesting class over a balanced class any day, but the Arcanist was (and honestly, still is) neither.
Flavor: The problem with the "new" flavor is that, well, it's not really new. There's no character concept the arcanist fills that could not have been done with a Wizard. Wizards already tinker and search for new magics, that's the entire point of the spellbook and spell research mechanics. I guess Arcanists are supposed to be better at it, somehow? Why?
Spell Slots: While I appreciate the effort, the problem was never the number of spell slots per day, but the number of spells prepared: A caster's ultimate weapon is their flexibility, and in this the arcanist has the best of both the wizard AND the sorcerer.
Arcane Exploits: Far as I'm concerned, arcane exploits need to be evaluated on two points. One, how do they compare with Arcane School Powers? Two, how do they compare with Bloodline Powers? Note that just as a system arcane exploits are superior to both, because while you need to choose all of the powers of an arcane school, or all the powers of a bloodline (thus arcane schools and bloodlines must be evaluated as packages), you can pick and choose arcane exploits individually. You get more exploits than you get of either arcane school powers *or* bloodline powers. Finally, most arcane school powers or bloodline powers have their own uses/day limitations but arcane exploits have the benefit of all sharing the same arcane reservoir; You get lots of freedom as to how often you can use each exploit.
And evaluated individually, most of the arcane exploits are vastly superior to most of the arcane school powers and bloodline powers. Let's go through them all:
Acid Jet, Flame Arc, and the other Blast exploits: Better than all of the blast powers Sorcerers and Wizards get,...
seems like youre glancing over the fact the exploits you mentioned needs the arcanist to spent a point (or more) to use (which he only gets 1+1/2 level/day - not alot in my book... thats only 11 at 20th level), and YES he can get them back, by either eating his magic items (wasteful really) or eating his own spell slots (personally id just rather cast the spell) not to mention save DCs are based off of Cha, and alot of the exploits are melee touch attacks, so now so be useful he has to max 2-3 abilities... no more dump stats for him... making for low save DCs and little (if any) bonus spell slots...
i honestly don't understand why everyone is freaking out about "How Over-Powered" this class is... how many of you have actually playtested this class? at any length?... seriously...
i have a 2nd level PFS arcanist... and let me tell you, its no more or less powerful than ANY spellcaster.. its just different... and YES it LOOKS powerful on paper.. but actually play is a different matter... look at the Witch class.. thats "OP" by all the standards everyone on this page is giving... OMG a No-HD max sleep effect at will that levels the Save DC with you??? omg way too powerful!!! (on paper) not as powerful in actual play... same with the arcanist here
I know this question had come up for blood rager but have't been able to find it for the arcanist. But do they meet the spell casting rec for dragon disciple as the prepare there spells know but not there spells after clarification before I finish my pfs play test for this class.
By RAW, definitely no, because Arcanists "prepare" their spells. However, I don't think this is RAI, since Arcanist preparation doesn't work like Wizard preparation: If the Arcanist's "change spells known every day" was called "retrieving" (like the Spirit Shaman) instead of preparing, they'd qualify with no problems.
seems like youre glancing over the fact the exploits you mentioned needs the arcanist to spent a point (or more) to use (which he only gets 1+1/2 level/day - not alot in my book... thats only 11 at 20th level), and YES he can get them back, by either eating his magic items (wasteful really) or eating his own spell slots (personally id just rather cast the spell) not to mention save DCs are based off of Cha, and alot of the exploits are melee touch attacks, so now so be useful he has to max 2-3 abilities... no more dump stats for him... making for low save DCs and little (if any) bonus spell slots...
i honestly don't understand why everyone is freaking out about "How Over-Powered" this class is... how many of you have actually playtested this class? at any length?... seriously...
I have: Non-human Sorcerers and generalist wizards are practically a bad joke compared to the Arcanist (though Human Sorc fare better if they take the human favored class bonus at every level), and they're more useful than specialists in more situations than not (especially if you compare them to the sub-par specializations like Necromancers or Evokers instead of Conjurers and Transmuters). IMO the issue is twofold:
- Arcanist Exploits are much more useful and flexible than bloodline powers and arcane school powers. Addmittedly this is much less of a problem than the second problem...
- Arcanists get as many spells available to them at once as a Sorcerer, discounting their bloodline spells (most of which are sub-par anyway). Having fewer spell slots per day is not a balancing factor.
Unlike some complaining about Arcanist balance, I don't have a problem with a new full spellcaster class getting made (the Witch and Oracle were great ideas), but I do have a problem with that class mostly obsoleting full spellcasters that already exist.
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Frankly, though? A playtest is the perfect time to be talking design and balance. What other time is it appropriate? After shipping? Little late then, I'd think.
It's really not....
Pathfinder (because it is based in 3rd edition D&D) is deeply flawed, especially in the caster/martial balance department. It is. Now what? Here are your choices, the same ones I am faced with:
1) Play another game instead
2) Play this one despite it's problems and try to make the best of it
3) Make a weird stand on the issue half a decade too late
You're fighting against a basic principle the game is built upon to complain about the 30 somethingth class to see print? What's the point now?
There is a fourth option you missed.
4) Introduce several new classes, which are better balanced than the classes in the core rules (which were hindered by expectations of backwards compatibility). GMs and players can choose which classes to include or exclude in their games.
If the Arcanist comes out somewhere between the Wizard and Sorcerer, that's a good thing. Any group who have become tired of seeing Wizards can declare the Arcanist to be the 'new Wizard', and put the original in mothballs.
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3.5 had examples of doing casters right - Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Warmage.
They were only right if you only had those classes. The problem here is that if Paizo released all three of those, there would still be Druids, Clerics, Wizards, Sorcerers, etc.
Those classes help nobody unless you remove or ban the original 9 level casters, and if you are wiling to houserule like that, then, uh, duh--just houserule in those three classes since the main problem with Pathfinder is that it had to remain backwards compatible to 3.5!
That's the idea; bringing in a variety of better-balanced casting classes allows the legacy classes to be retired, knowing their niches were covered.
And sure, GMs can houserule, but as long as it's a houserule, it would never get official support. So the houseruling would have to continue, even expand. Statblocks in published adventures would need to be reworked, new feats and equipment would have to be rephrased to apply to these classes' individual mechanics.
Many would rather see an official recognition of their preferences, as this implies that these classes will appear and be supported in future APs, scenarios, setting material, and rules expansions.
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I actually really liked the original concept of the Arcanist as someone who uses study and discipline (INT-based casting) to unlock their natural potential (Sorcerer bloodlines).
I get that the "Sage" bloodline is one approach to this concept, but it ties you down to being an Arcane Sorcerer instead of, say, someone with a spellbook and draconic or celestial heritage.
I guess there were huge balance issues with the original version of the class, but I wish this fluff hadn't been thrown out. And as long as the Shaman got all-new versions of both hexes and mysteries, maybe Arcanist could've gotten new bloodlines.
just wanted to point out that disrupt spell doesn't specify what type of action this one would be however i suspect it would be a immediate actionSince it doesn't specify, that means it's a standard action. Basic rules for supernatural abilities, plus Jason pointed that out specifically after people started asking about it.
I would imagine that you still have to ready to counterspell as normal but spend arcane reservoir points instead of actually using a spell slot. It is far too powerful of an ability otherwise.
I would imagine that you still have to ready to counterspell as normal but spend arcane reservoir points instead of actually using a spell slot. It is far too powerful of an ability otherwise.just wanted to point out that disrupt spell doesn't specify what type of action this one would be however i suspect it would be a immediate actionSince it doesn't specify, that means it's a standard action. Basic rules for supernatural abilities, plus Jason pointed that out specifically after people started asking about it.
"Disrupt spell" is different than "Counterspell."
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I. Look at the Arcanist Reservior and scratch my head.
I see that at third level my character will get two points out of a maximum of nine. This seems out of Waco to me. Thoughts?
Evidently they are supposed to be draining it off their own spells and magic items. Though the magic item thing is ridiculously expensive. Makes more sense to sell magic items and get something that can recharge spells (assuming there's something the arcanist can use for that). Still expensive, but quickly cheaper than 150gp or more per point.
I do think the Consume Magical Items is overly expensive looking at it more closely. This will cause party friction.
I think it more than likely there will be feats or racial favored class options to speed up replenishing of the point pool, or magic items to fuel this, on a par with pearls of power, runestones, psi-crystals, etc.
Cannibalizing an item to fuel the pool should be more expensive, since until the cannibalisation occurs, the item has a dual use, that could be accessed by any other caster, or via UMD skill.
RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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I recently played an arcanist in PFS, and at various times I found myself longing for various aspects of wizards and sorcerers, even while enjoying my own class features. It really felt like there was sufficient "tension" that there's still a decision to be made as to whether one wants to play an arcanist, a wizard, or a sorcerer. None of them felt obsoleted.
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Where does the Witch fit? I'm thinking something like "the really smart homeschooled person who might not have gotten the full breadth of education like the others but who has picked up a few things that aren't even on their radar."
<cue Van Halen's 'Hot For Teacher'>
"I loved my schooldays. My teacher was a FOX!"
You're assuming that the items you eat will always be more useful on their own than the abilities that they fuel. That is where you are wrong.
There's only one situation where I might even consider using Consume Magic Item: During a long adventuring day when I'm low on spell slots, low on reservoir points, there's some reason that I can't just rest, and when I have a crap item the DM rolled up randomly in the loot that I'm almost certain I won't need to use (like a Potion of Delay Poison or something). THEN the reservoir points I get might be worth the opportunity cost of selling the item. Otherwise? Not a chance. That's too situational to justify using one of my 10 exploit slots on when there's other things I could be spending them on. Reservoir points are good to have (and I'd spend level 1 slots to make sure I have at least 1 point for emergencies to use with Counterspell or Spell Tinkering), but a useful spell is always the better choice.
Plus, at certain tables I could totally see this happening:
Arcanist: "Hey, I found a Wand of Fireballs!"
Wizard: "Neat, my Lyrakien could make decent use of that (after casting Haste 5d6 of fire damage is better than sitting around doing nothing), I'd be glad to pay you some of my share of the gold in exchange for..."
Arcanist: "OM NOM NOM NOM Okay, Reservoir pool back to maximum! Time to go to bed."
Wizard: *sobs herself to sleep*