Arcanist Discussion - Revised

[Jason Bulmahn]

This thread is for discussing the REVISED Arcanist. It should be used as a central location for feedback on the class as a whole. Discussion on specific topics and rules should receive their own individual thread in this forum.

Keep it civil and polite folks. Remember we are all here to make this book the best it can be.

See this thread for the revised version of the class.

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer

[The Pale King]

Looks like a much more interesting version of the class, can't wait to try it out. Metamixing is by far my favorite exploit.

[Kudaku]

Crossposting over here since I apparently dodged the thread lock by seconds:

Had a quick glance at this before I'm calling it a night and I want to try out an arcanist even more now - the damage-focused powers were a little uninspired but Spell Tinkerer and Dimensional Slide are crazy awesome and positively bursting with flavour! Can't wait to roll up an Arcanist and see what this can be made into.

One thing: Am I reading it right in that the Arcanist can apply any metamagic feat via the Metamixing exploit or is it meant to be limited to only those metamagic feat the arcanist knows?

[Prince of Knives]

Crossposting from previous thread, sorry about clogging it up:

So...I mean, I appreciate it getting a unique flavor, but...

There were power level concerns to begin with.

In a system where casters are already the most incredibly powerful forces beneath gods and even then maybe just the most powerful forces ever if you like certain kinds of mythology.

And your response to, "This is too strong," is to give it a boatload of utility abilities that make it even stronger, and the only balancing factor is a daily pool that they can natively refresh?

[Cheapy]

Seems...fun. And powerful. But that's what playtests are for.

Also interesting that this is sort of like the Warlock in the blasty stuff.

[Cheapy]

Was the reason really "this is too strong"? I thought it was "This is as boring as watching paint dry"?

[Prince of Knives]

Cheapy wrote:

Was the reason really "this is too strong"? I thought it was "This is as boring as watching paint dry"?

I did acknowledge appreciation of the flavor, Cheapy. I'm also re-stating for numerous other people that we thought Arcanist was too strong and too good at metamagic to begin with. Now he's even stronger, even better at metamagic, and also Utility Stuff because, hey, sometimes solving the entire encounter with a spell is boring and you just gotta spend a point instead.

[Kudaku]

I think both concerns were raised - I have to say as it stands now it is a very powerful class. It reminds me a bit of the witch in that it has robust class features in addition to 9th level spells, but it also has a more flexible casting mechanic and full access to the wizard spell list.

[Kryzbyn]

This feels like a magic Psion/Wilder/Warlock.

Neat!

[Mystic "X"]

Quick question: for the Counterspell exploit, does that happen the same way as a standard counterspell (ready an action for the spellcaster to cast a spell), or is it an immediate action (or some other mechanic)?

[Cheapy]

Alright, so my kneejerk reaction was "Whoa."

But the need for Charisma is interesting, and complicates things. As a wizard, you always want the highest Intelligence possible. But now that you have a number of pretty nice abilities that rely on Charisma, your Intelligence is going to take a hit. Which will lower the DCs of spells, which I'm pretty sure everyone says are the holy grail.

If you want to focus on the abilities they get that have saves, you're going to need to focus on Charisma. This will cause a hit to your DCs and spells per day...

The question now is...is it enough?

[Mythic Indigo]

I know I'm going to be shot down for this, but I can't help but keep thinking 'Master of the Mana Wastes' for this class.
Come on, doesn't this just scream Primalist caster?

[Erik Freund]

Does the suppress feature of Spell Tinkerer work on any magical effect without a roll? (That is, effects where no creature is directly targeted.) In other words, can I use it to bypass a Wall of Force, Prismatic Wall, or Anti-Magic Field without any risk of failure?

That seems ... strong.

[DM_aka_Dudemeister]

Actually you don't NEED a high charisma, unless you focus on the blasts. The Metamagic Feats, Metamixing, Potent Magic, Counterspell, Counter Drain, Siphon Spell, Spell Thief don't really require the use of Charisma at all.

[Cheapy]

DM_aka_Dudemeister wrote:

Actually you don't NEED a high charisma, unless you focus on the blasts. The Metamagic Feats, Metamixing, Potent Magic, Counterspell, Counter Drain, Siphon Spell, Spell Thief don't really require the use of Charisma at all.

Right. The point stumbles / falls flat since there are enough good exploits (awesome name, btw) that don't require saves. And those are also some ofthe most powerful ones.

But tying them to Charisma, so that almost everything is charisma based, would go a lonnng way.

[edduardco]

It's awesome, I love it. How long until the revised playtest document?

Edit: The spells per day as wizard and sorcerer spell level progression balance the class.

[JRutterbush]

So, it has even fewer spells per day than the Sorcerer now, including having fewer spells per day than a school Wizard. And it still has a limited pool of points to use on its abilities. Yes, it can refresh that pool... by spending spell slots, or inefficiently consuming magic items (150g for a scroll that adds 1 arcane point), or risking losing points to gain the ability to maybe gain a point or two.

And people are still calling it "too powerful"? Yes, it's very versatile, but in a rather limited fashion. Arcane Exploits will either not get used very often at 1+1/2 level per day, or you'll end up spending your spell slots to power your class features. I don't see many people taking Consume Magic Item, honestly, because that becomes an expensive habit for a minor benefit (since it's 1/2 spell level in arcane points). The other point regeneration abilities are nice, but also have a risk of failure or don't become available until level 10, and even then you have to spend a point to have the chance of getting one or two points back, so you could very well just break even most of the time.

Keep in mind, I'm not complaining about the class. I actually love where it's going. I like the versatility, and I like that you have those choices to make about how to get your arcane points back. I'm just saying that this class isn't the overpowered monstrosity people seem to think it is.

[Seeker of skybreak]

I love the direction of the new class but it does seem strong. I don't want to lose any of the flavor though. Maybe a good limiting factor would be to make more of the abilities require expending a spell slot in addition to a point from the pool.

[Cheapy]

That's true JRutterbush. It has a high ceiling of points.

But a pretty low starting value, meaning you'll have to consume *something* to get more points to fuel your abilities.

[Landon Winkler]

Looks really cool, thanks for the revamp!

I also wouldn't mind seeing things split a bit more between Int and Charisma (maybe spell saves also being Charisma?). Or maybe starting the pool with an amount of points equal to Charisma modifier.

That's beside the point, though. This is really neat and I'm looking forward to GMing for it.

Cheers!
Landon

[DJEternalDarkness]

Letting my players look at this now, seems pretty nice.

[Cheapy]

Hmm. This might end up being the Dragonrider of the Paizo classes. That'd be impressive.

[CRobledo]

soo... INT to cast, but CHA for all the exploits? Interesting.

Looks like nothing related to bloodlines or wizard schools then, right?

[Mort the Cleverly Named]

With regards to Consume Magic Item, it doesn't seem to scale to item value well. 2nd level scrolls give you a point for 150gp, far better than other options. Wands are the worst, spending 450gp/point for a 2nd level wand and a whopping 1050gp/point for a 4th level (even worse than 8th level scrolls). Potions are not terrible at 300/point, but not as good as scrolls either. Higher level or odd level stuff should, of course, only be used in a pinch. If the values being different is an issue, there are a variety of ways in which things can be scaled so they are closer to even.

Siphon Spell also makes things hugely cheaper. A wand of mage armor then becomes the favored source by a factor of 5x-10x (depending on level and Charisma). If it is intended that the Arcane Reservoir be able to be filled for between 15gp and 30gp/point at level 11, then this doesn't matter. However it is intended to continue being meaningfully limited, this could easily throw the game out of whack.

It certainly makes the capstone wild (135gp for a 9th level spell? Yes please!). However, it is a capstone, and thus not really relevant.

[Seeker of skybreak]

JRutterbush wrote:

So, it has even fewer spells per day than the Sorcerer now, including having fewer spells per day than a school Wizard. And it still has a limited pool of points to use on its abilities. Yes, it can refresh that pool... by spending spell slots, or inefficiently consuming magic items (150g for a scroll that adds 1 arcane point), or risking losing points to gain the ability to maybe gain a point or two.

There aren't many abilities that require expending spell slots. But it may be okay where it's at. Which is why we playtest!

[Kryzbyn]

Cheapy wrote:

Hmm. This might end up being the Dragonrider of the Paizo classes. That'd be impressive.

?

Explain this please.

[Jester David]

As a Vancian spellcaster that also has spellpoints, I still think this class design would have been better used for psychic magic classes.

I'm not sure we need five different energy ranged touch exploints. Make them a single power where you pick the energy type when learned that also adds a kicker.

[JRutterbush]

Seeker of skybreak wrote:

There aren't many abilities that require expending spell slots.

No, but almost all of them require spending arcane pool points... of which you get a very small number per day. Which means that you'll have to spend spell slots to refresh them, unless you use either the very inefficient Consume Magic Item exploit or the very risky "I eat your magic!" exploits (that could get you nothing back, or only allow you to break even by regaining the point spent to use them).

Speaking of exploits, great naming choice there, by the way.

[Kudaku]

Cheapy wrote:

Hmm. This might end up being the Dragonrider of the Paizo classes. That'd be impressive.

I don't think I'm familiar with the Dragonrider - could you elaborate?

[Raisse]

Mort the Cleverly Named wrote:

Siphon Spell also makes things hugely cheaper. A wand of mage armor then becomes the favored source by a factor of 5x-10x (depending on level and Charisma). If it is intended that the Arcane Reservoir be able to be filled for between 15gp and 30gp/point at level 11, then this doesn't matter. However it is intended to continue being meaningfully limited, this could easily throw the game out of whack.

This isn't true because of:

Siphon Spell:

Siphon Spell (Su): When the arcanist uses the disrupt spell greater exploit, she can siphon some of the power to restore her arcane reservoir. If the caster level of the spell is equal to or higher than the arcanist and she exceeds the DC of the dispel check by 5 or more, she regains 1 point to her arcane reservoir. If she exceeds this check by 10 or more, she instead regains 2 points to her arcane reservoir. This has no effect on magic items. The arcanist must have the disrupt spell greater exploit before selecting this exploit.

The arcanist could only use a wand of equal or greater caster level. That said, if you manage to get your hand on a Wand of Mage Armor of exactly your caster level... then you might get a slightly cheaper option. (165g a charge at caster level 11, and that wand is only good until you level up).

[Cheapy]

Kryzbyn wrote:

Cheapy wrote:

Hmm. This might end up being the Dragonrider of the Paizo classes. That'd be impressive.

?

Explain this please.

Kudaku wrote:

Cheapy wrote:

Hmm. This might end up being the Dragonrider of the Paizo classes. That'd be impressive.

I don't think I'm familiar with the Dragonrider - could you elaborate?

This class. Seems overpowered on the first and second read throughs. Ends up not being overpowered once you see all the details and subtleties.

In the dragonrider's case, it actually ends up being either at or below average powerlevel. I doubt that's going to be the case for the Arcanist, but we'll see.

[AnCapBrony]

Cant wait to playtest this class

[JRutterbush]

Actually, thinking about it a bit... Consume Magic Item might not be so bad if you scribe your own scrolls. 75g for one point isn't horrible, though it can still get expensive. But the ability to scribe a bunch of utility scrolls and have them available for an emergency arcane point craving could work out pretty well, actually. Maybe it's not as inefficient as I thought at first.

Although, that definitely does reinforce the idea of the Arcanist becoming Mr. Versatility. Which is a concept that I love.

[Cheapy]

One thing I find clever is that with Consume Magic Items and Scribe Scrolls, your unused spell slots can be used to power your abilities the next day, if you scribe them down.

Still, I'm wary of any ability that balances out power with gold. WBL assumes you'll have X GP at Y level. If you spend Z gold to power your abilities, the GM is supposed to ensure that you still have X at level Y.

[Cthulhudrew]

Okay- this is mechanically pretty close to the idea I have been toying with for years. On first read, I am liking this quite a lot.

(I mean, mechanically other than the exploits and such; I hadn't envisioned such a class taking that kind of feature, but I was struggling with how to represent it mechanically, and this kind of covers a lot of the bases that I wanted to create, but couldn't think of how to do it without a lot of different abilities.)

[Rynjin]

So this moved Arcanist from the "Meh." pile to the "Holy crap I really wanna play one now" pile along with the Bloodrager and Investigator.

I won't comment on non-obvious balance issues yet because I haven't built one, but I do kinda scratch my head and wonder why Flame Arc even exists.

Acid: d4's of Acid damage, and Sickened (good debuff).
Ice: d4's of damage, and Staggered (great debuff).
Force: d4+static damage (awesome), and it's FORCE.
Electricity: d4's of damage, and dazzled (okay debuff).

Fire: d6's of damage and...

Yeah. That's it. It does 1 more point of damage per die on average. I don't see anyone ever taking that option for mechanical reasons, to be honest.

The Arcane pool being based on Cha instead of Int might be good if you wanted to up the MADness as a balancing factor. Making save DCs based off of Cha while casting is still Int though? Sounds painful.

[Kryzbyn]

Cheapy wrote:

Kryzbyn wrote:

Cheapy wrote:

Hmm. This might end up being the Dragonrider of the Paizo classes. That'd be impressive.

?

Explain this please.

Kudaku wrote:

Cheapy wrote:

Hmm. This might end up being the Dragonrider of the Paizo classes. That'd be impressive.

I don't think I'm familiar with the Dragonrider - could you elaborate?

This class. Seems overpowered on the first and second read throughs. Ends up not being overpowered once you see all the details and subtleties.

In the dragonrider's case, it actually ends up being either at or below average powerlevel. I doubt that's going to be the case for the Arcanist, but we'll see.

Ahh! Yes, I get that. Well said.

I think this will still ending up on par with Wizards/Sorcerers, but not as OP as it looks at first read.

[JRutterbush]

Cheapy wrote:

One thing I find clever is that with Consume Magic Items and Scribe Scrolls, your unused spell slots can be used to power your abilities the next day, if you scribe them down.

You can only do this once per day, though, and only with a 2nd level spell slot (so only +1 arcane point). If you're out adventuring, you can only work up to 4 hours a day on item creation, and it only counts as 2 hours worth of work. Only 2nd level scrolls or lower can be made in 2 hours of work, anything higher costs more than 250g, and thus takes at least a full day to scribe.

Quote:

Still, I'm wary of any ability that balances out power with gold. WBL assumes you'll have X GP at Y level. If you spend Z gold to power your abilities, the GM is supposed to ensure that you still have X at level Y.

It's only consumables. You're as likely to use your Scroll of Knock to open a door as you are to use it to fuel your arcane pool, so it's not actually hurting your WBL any more than using a lot of consumables would. For example, if your Fighter bought 6 Potions of Cure Moderate Wounds instead of a getting that +1 added to his Longsword, you wouldn't expect your DM to give him another 2,000g just to bring him back to WBL, would you? So you shouldn't expect that if your Arcanist buys 12 Scrolls of Whatever, either.

[Raiderrpg]

Playtesting this ASAP.

Thank you, Jason! I'm already in love!

The Int spells, Charisma abilities is awesome and will lead to a fun variety of builds. The ability list could use (and hopefully will have) expansion, but this is fantastic for the purposes of a playtest.

And you tweaked the spells per day!

Once again, IN LOVE. <3<3<3

Edit:
One question, should Metamagic Knowledge be changed to allow for multiple takes? Or would that prove unbalancing? Thoughts, guys?

[Prince of Knives]

Folks, do you honestly not...

Okay, this is a serious question here.

Is no one else concerned about the metamagic thing?

[Lemmy]

A very interesting and flavorful class. I'm still not convinced it's balanced (it does seem to completely obsolete Sorcerers), but I gotta admit the mechanics are really friggin' cool.

[Rynjin]

It looks like an ability to use Metamagic as a Sorcerer by using a limited resource, unless I'm missing something.

What's wrong with that?

[Raiderrpg]

Prince of Knives wrote:

Folks, do you honestly not...

Okay, this is a serious question here.

Is no one else concerned about the metamagic thing?

They can't combine prepared metamagic and spontaneous metamagic anymore, without taking an exploit and spending points.

So I'm cool with it and then some.

[Kryzbyn]

This?

Revised Arcanist wrote:

Metamixing (Su): The arcanist can expend one point from her arcane reservoir to add a metamagic feat to a spell as she casts it, using a higher-level spell slot as normal, but using the spell’s original casting time. She can use this ability to add a metamagic feat to a spell that she prepared using a metamagic feat, although she cannot the same metamagic feat on a given spell more than once.

May want to add:

"The arcanist can expend one point from her arcane reservoir to add a metamagic feat she knows to a spell as she casts it, using a higher-level spell slot as normal, but using the spell’s original casting time."

As is, I could see it possibly being interpreted as not requiring that she actually know the feats to use them.

[DM_aka_Dudemeister]

Prince of Knives wrote:

Folks, do you honestly not...

Okay, this is a serious question here.

Is no one else concerned about the metamagic thing?

No concerns here, I'll see how it plays out in a playtest though :)

[Joe M.]

Very interesting. Can't wait to bring one of these to PFS. That flavor, that versatility.

[Iâ]

Its like Christmas came early!

I will get back to you all after I am done gorging myself on this bountiful information.

@ Paizo: My attention, you have it. :)

[Cthulhudrew]

Just thinking out loud here- obviously haven't had a chance to test anything yet- but I'm wondering if Spell Tinkerer might need to be done as an opposed check versus the DC of the spell if the spell effect is not one created by the Arcanist? I'm not sure a 1st level Arcanist should be able to suppress the Hallucinatory Terrain effect of a 20th level Wizard, for instance.

[Cheapy]

Dude...the class has been out for an hour.

No one has had time to playtest it yet.

[Kudaku]

Kryzbyn wrote:

This?

Revised Arcanist wrote:

Metamixing (Su): The arcanist can expend one point from her arcane reservoir to add a metamagic feat to a spell as she casts it, using a higher-level spell slot as normal, but using the spell’s original casting time. She can use this ability to add a metamagic feat to a spell that she prepared using a metamagic feat, although she cannot the same metamagic feat on a given spell more than once.

May want to add:

"The arcanist can expend one point from her arcane reservoir to add a metamagic feat she knows to a spell as she casts it, using a higher-level spell slot as normal, but using the spell’s original casting time."

As is, I could see it possibly being interpreted as not requiring that she actually know the feats to use them.

Yeah, I brought that up earlier - I'm not entirely certain if that's intentional or not. If it is then that is an incredibly potent 'exploit' exploit.

...