Question on Dueling Sword, Duelist, and Sawshbuckler, also Weapon Finesse

[Davick]

Can my swashbuckler take Aldori Dueling Mastery to use the Aldori Dueling Sword with his Panache abilities?

If he can, does he need to take the weapon finesse feat, or does the class ability Swashbuckler Finesse work?

If the answer to the first question is yes, it would likely then make the second one yes, but at that point it's too late since you already had to have it. ...And that kinda sucks.

[CRobledo]

Aldori Dueling Mastery specifically states "for a Duelist" which Swashbuckler is not.

Also, as written, the level 2 ability of Swashbucklers does not give the weapon finesse feat itself, so you would need to pick it up for feat prereqs

[Davick]

CRobledo wrote:

Aldori Dueling Mastery specifically states "for a Duelist" which Swashbuckler is not.

Also, as written, the level 2 ability of Swashbucklers does not give the weapon finesse feat itself, so you would need to pick it up for feat prereqs

I'm aware of what it says. I'm wondering if it is the intent for it to stay that way and work that way.

[Samasboy1]

But it doesn't say that (exactly).

It says "by a duelist." It is not a capitalized "Duelist."

Considering you are using a Dueling sword, and the feat is Dueling Mastery, I don't see a reason to read that phrase in reference to a specific prestige class instead of just a reference to the feat-taker being someone who engages in duels.

[Throne]

The Hamatulatsu feat in the same book doesn't capitalise its reference to monks, either.
I don't think you can draw a conclusion one way or the other on whether it means the PrC or just someone with the sword+feat.

[DarkenedRurouni]

I'd say the Aldori Dueling Sword wouldn't work with the Swashbuckler class in general. Both the Swashbuckler Finesse (Ex) and Swashbuckler Weapon Training (Ex) abilities only work with Piercing weapons. The Aldori Dueling Sword is a Slashing weapon.

[rayous brightblade]

Darkened, here is the text of the feat-
"Weapon Proficiency (dueling sword), Quick Draw, Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus (dueling sword).

Benefit: You gain a +2 bonus on Initiative checks as long as you start combat with a dueling sword in your hand. As long as you wield only a single dueling sword in one hand, you gain a +2 shield bonus to your AC—if you wield the sword in two hands, this bonus drops to a +1 shield bonus to AC.

Although the dueling sword inflicts slashing damage, you treat it as if it were also a piercing weapon when determining the effects of weapons used by a duelist."

The last paragraph states that you can treat it as a piercing weapon.

[Andrew Boucher 88]

Currently a swashbucker can use these weapons.

Cestus*
Spiked Gauntlet*
wooden stake
Morningstar*
Short Spear*
Light Pick*
Heavy Pick*
Rapier
Sword cane
Trident
Dervish Dance Scimitar (Best option)
*WTF

Cannot use:
Longsword
Aldori Dueling Sword
Kukri
Cutlass
Non-Dervish Dance Scimitar
Falcata
Rhoka
Double CHicken Saber
Katana
Urumi
Temple Sword

I think class features on the Swashbucker should instead use a "swashbucker weapon list" of "Weapon finesse able weapons and the Cutlass"

As it is currently it's very odd that I can precise strike with my Morningstar, but not my Kukri, Urumi, Katana, Aldori Duelign sword, ect.

Also make weapon finesse a bonus feat. Also finally introduce greater weapon finesse so you can finally reduce MAD burden. Dex to damage can never catch up to STR and power attack.

[Naranth]

Andrew Boucher 88 wrote:

Also make weapon finesse a bonus feat. Also finally introduce greater weapon finesse so you can finally reduce MAD burden. Dex to damage can never catch up to STR and power attack.

I think that's why they didn't do it, and made it add level to damage. Because they don't want the class to fall so far behind the fighter/barbarian that it becomes pointless to play a swashbuckler.

[Throne]

rayous brightblade wrote:

Although the dueling sword inflicts slashing damage, you treat it as if it were also a piercing weapon when determining the effects of weapons used by a duelist."

The last paragraph states that you can treat it as a piercing weapon.

the last paragraph states you can treat it as a piercing weapon if you are a duelist. A duelist is a specific thing in Pathfinder (the duelist prestige class), not only a general descriptive term. The same as when something refers to a fighter, it's generally a safe bet they're not just using it as a term for someone who gets in a lot of fights.

[Kenji Elindir]

The question is not whether by RAW it works, because obviously it doesn't. The question is whether these two weapons than can be treated as piercing weapons for another class's features can be added to the swashbuckler by the dev team.

[Throne]

Two weapons? Aldori Dueling Sword and.... ?

(I do agree that it'd be nice if something got tweaked somewhere to make Dueling Swords swashbuckler-OK weapons. I think JJ posted elsewhere that he agrees too, so maybe there's some hope there)

[The Morphling]

Samasboy1 wrote:

But it doesn't say that (exactly).

It says "by a duelist." It is not a capitalized "Duelist."

Considering you are using a Dueling sword, and the feat is Dueling Mastery, I don't see a reason to read that phrase in reference to a specific prestige class instead of just a reference to the feat-taker being someone who engages in duels.

I'm not gonna say that you're intentionally misinterpreting a feat's rules text in order to come up with an interpretation you prefer that is clearly opposed to what the rules say, but you're intentionally misinterpreting a feat's rules text in order to come up with an interpretation you prefer that is clearly opposed to what the rules say.

With that said (or not said :P), the dueling sword should be errata'd to work with the Swashbuckler (or the Swashbuckler updated to specifically allow it).

[Sean K Reynolds]

Thread closed. Please post your comments in the stickied thread for the swashbuckler class, otherwise we'll end up with a hundred parallel discussion threads. Thanks!