Still over some aspects of the class, but I think the focus on self-buffs is a massive step in the right direction. Very much looking forward to seeing the revised playtest version :)
Edit:
Still hoping a scythe-weilding "paladin" of Pharasma or Ashava is going to be doable.
Same for khopesh-using Sarenraen warpriest, gun-weilding Brighite warpriest, handaxe using Erastilian warpriest, etc.
You and me both!
Still hoping a scythe-weilding "paladin" of Pharasma or Ashava is going to be doable.
Wouldn't Ashava have a bladed scarf?
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Still hoping a scythe-weilding "paladin" of Pharasma or Ashava is going to be doable.Wouldn't Ashava have a bladed scarf?
Doesn't fit the kindly "grim reaper" paladin/protector-of-the-dead image or feel I'd want to get out of that character, especially since the Ashavan version would be multiclassing into White Necomancer. White cloak, silvery scythe.
Pharasma version would emphasize the grim over the kindly, no multiclassing. Black cloak, scary scythe.
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Jason likes the idea of favored weapons. So do several other people on this forum, in all probability along with a deal of other people on the design board, and out in the real world.
I suspect it's time to call defeat on that one, regardless of how we feel about the subject of unachieveable character concepts.
Jason likes the idea of favored weapons. So do several other people on this forum, in all probability along with a deal of other people on the design board, and out in the real world.
I suspect it's time to call defeat on that one, regardless of how we feel about the subject of unachieveable character concepts.
Don't worry, apparently they'll make us want it. Probably could've phrased that better...
Don't worry, apparently they'll make us want it. Probably could've phrased that better...
Well, Jason is the king of the tease ;)
Perhaps they'll borrow the static unarmed damage increases from the monk, and say if you use favored weapon, you do X damage regardless of type?
I just had a thought... what if, in addition to the Warpriest's spellcasting, it got additional SLAs for buffs.
The Warpriest uses the blessing of his Deity to augment his combat prowess. Through the power of faith, the warpriest becomes a conduit for holy or unholy wrath. Starting at 1st level, the Warpriest can cast a number of spells as spell-like abilities. Using one of these abilities is a swift action that provokes attacks of opportunity unless the Warpriest passes a concentration check with a DC equal to 15 + the Warpriest's level. The Warpriest can use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + his wisdom modifier.
At 1st level, the Warpriest can use this ability to cast Divine Favor.
At 3rd level, the Warpriest can use this ability to cast Righteous Vigor.
At 5th level, the Warpriest can use this ability to cast Deadly Juggernaut.
At 7th level, the Warpriest can use this ability to cast Divine Power
At 9th level, the Warpriest can use this ability to cast Righteous Might
At 11th level, the Warpriest can use this ability to cast Greater Heroism
At 13th level, the Warpriest can use this ability to cast Holy or Unholy Aura
At 15th level, the Warpriest can use this ability to cast Divine Vessel
At 17th level, the Warpriest can use this ability to cast Wooden Phalanx
Spells cast using this ability have a duration of 1 minute/level regardless of their normal duuration. A Warpriest can use this ability to cast any spell that he has gained access to, for example, a 5th level Warpriest could use this ability to cast Deadly Juggernaut, Righteous Vigor or Divine Favor. The Warpriests caster level is equal to his class level.
You'll probably do massive dmg with it.
Yeah. It probably is massive...
Perhaps they'll borrow the static unarmed damage increases from the monk, and say if you use favored weapon, you do X damage regardless of type?
The bigger damage dice is quite deceptive really. All it adds is slightly better average damage. Even a 20th level Monk's unarmed strike only deals 11 damage on average as opposed to a Greatswords 7. Doing it like that would favor weaker weapons and do close to nothing for better ones. It also doesn't solve the threat ranges and damage type issues.
Needless to say, I'm quite curious how they're going to go about this.
You'll probably do massive dmg with it.Yeah. It probably is massive...
I better be rolling at least half my level in D6s!
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Apropos of nothing, I've been pondering whether the warpriest could be used to make a functional replica of the Casseline Brotherhood. The idea of skilled and deadly swordsmen who actually eschew the sword most of the time is not one Pathfinder handles very well, but I feel like the warpriest, with its truckload of bonus feats and sacred weapon might actually be able to make it work. Use the bonus feats to cover the dagger work, and the sacred weapon class abilities and the characters "generic" feats from leveling to make the swordmaster element...
Hello Everybody,
Couple of quick notes.
1. Sorry for leaving this thread unattended for a few days. I have been swamped going through the edits of the other classes and full-scale recasting of the Arcanist. I am still getting caught up on this thread and I am turning my full attention to this class now.
2. Some folks need to calm it down a bit. This thread has had far too many posts removed for sniping, rude comments, and troll-baiting. I am not going to lock it, but folks need to know that you are all on warning. Post your thoughts, comments, and feedback. Leave the snark and flame-wars out. Failure to do so will land you with a time out.
3. There are going to be some serious changes to this class. Not quite on the scope of the arcanist, but still big. I think I have some solutions to solve a number of the problems as they currently stand. I think many of you will be quite happy with them, but I guess we will have to wait and see for the PDF rerelease. Here are a few teasers...
- The class is not getting full-BAB, but there are ways to work around that.
- With the rewrite, the favored weapon of your god is going to become something you want to use, not just something you are forced to use.
- This class is going to become the master at self-buffing.That is all I am ready to share for now. I gotta get back to reading and design.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Will Warpriest also be stronger with non-Favored weapons?
Example being Warpriest of -insert melee god here- is up against a flying monster and thus must use a Long Bow.
Perhaps they'll borrow the static unarmed damage increases from the monk, and say if you use favored weapon, you do X damage regardless of type?The bigger damage dice is quite deceptive really. All it adds is slightly better average damage. Even a 20th level Monk's unarmed strike only deals 11 damage on average as opposed to a Greatswords 7. Doing it like that would favor weaker weapons and do close to nothing for better ones. It also doesn't solve the threat ranges and damage type issues.
Needless to say, I'm quite curious how they're going to go about this.
Yeah, there is that, but can you see a bonus of + level to damage?
I'm curious also.
Hello Everybody,
- This class is going to become the master at self-buffing.
Jason Bulmahn
I really hope the buffing mechanic is an active one. Something that combines with an attack, or debuff or something. It needs to emphasize the War part of Warpriest. It needs to be activate or turn on as fast as a ranger, fighter, barbarian, inquisitor or Paladin.
Or it is more like Holy Fury (or something appropriately named) that you enter like rage or defensive stance... but appropriate abilities to the Warpriest. Maybe similar to the current arcane bloodrage bloodline powers.
I would also like to see that you count as full bab with your deities favored weapon, like the monk flurry does.
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Perhaps they'll borrow the static unarmed damage increases from the monk, and say if you use favored weapon, you do X damage regardless of type?
I really hope not. That would completely ruin the idea of Favored Weapons, and be too easily abused. It also basically solves nothing as instead of there being 4 counterbalancing factors for which deity you pick for the weapon, there are just 3, and it makes picking a deity with a weapon that has better crit ranges and multipliers, or some extra features while (unless the base damage starts at 2d6 or higher), kind of nerfs the ones that should have Warpriests to begin with.
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Perhaps they'll borrow the static unarmed damage increases from the monk, and say if you use favored weapon, you do X damage regardless of type?I really hope not. That would completely ruin the idea of Favored Weapons, and be too easily abused. It also basically solves nothing as instead of there being 4 counterbalancing factors for which deity you pick for the weapon, there are just 3, and it makes picking a deity with a weapon that has better crit ranges and multipliers, or some extra features while (unless the base damage starts at 2d6 or higher), kind of nerfs the ones that should have Warpriests to begin with.
Something straight forward could be adding straight damage to the weapon (ala 1d6 per three levels cap at 6d6). I am interested in how they will solve the "to hit" issue without a full BAB.
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It still doesn't fix anything, though. If they try to even things out, say a Greatsword's 2d6 gets a +1d1 and a Dagger's 1d4 gets a +1d10, then you still start making all the weapons look similar, except for the crits and special properties.
If everyone just gets a +1d6(?), the people that where probably not going to play Warpriests of Pharasma anyway are still going to complain that daggers are not uberkool.
:)
I'm still wondering if they'll do something like the Spiritual Weapon spell - ie an "idea" of the weapon with fixed stats irregardless of the shape of the original weapon.
It's an easy, if not particularly elegant fix to the problem.
Something straight forward could be adding straight damage to the weapon (ala 1d6 per three levels cap at 6d6). I am interested in how they will solve the "to hit" issue without a full BAB.Perhaps they'll borrow the static unarmed damage increases from the monk, and say if you use favored weapon, you do X damage regardless of type?I really hope not. That would completely ruin the idea of Favored Weapons, and be too easily abused. It also basically solves nothing as instead of there being 4 counterbalancing factors for which deity you pick for the weapon, there are just 3, and it makes picking a deity with a weapon that has better crit ranges and multipliers, or some extra features while (unless the base damage starts at 2d6 or higher), kind of nerfs the ones that should have Warpriests to begin with.
Something to remember (and be wary of) is that divine casters have several spells that can supercharge themselves. Sure the warpriest looks puny with his 3/4 BAB, but he also has divine power, righteous Might, Magical Circle Against Evil, Archon's Aura, Magic Vestment, and Magic Weapon cast on himself. Cleric's happen to do that pretty well at the moment, and it was one of the big reasons they could (and still can) steal the spotlight. Buff buff buff, and a number of those have a good duration. There's actually a chance that without class features to give it oomph, the cleric will still do it better.
If everyone just gets a +1d6(?), the people that where probably not going to play Warpriests of Pharasma anyway are still going to complain that daggers are not uberkool.
:)
Pfft, my dagger is way cool! Its on fire, has a bunch of runes on it, cool holy symbol and sanctified in the name of the mistress we serve... Just not as cool as a really big sword. I like big swords, everyone even calls them great swords!
The ability to reflavor is wonderful.
"But your scythe doesn't have x4?!"
"Of course not. Mine is special. Handed down to me by Pharasma her self, to rid the world of those who choose to halt the procession of life."
Jason likes the idea of favored weapons. So do several other people on this forum, in all probability along with a deal of other people on the design board, and out in the real world.
I suspect it's time to call defeat on that one, regardless of how we feel about the subject of unachieveable character concepts.This class is dead to me unless the devs realize they're being stupid and that they can't balance Mazmezz, Fandara, Scarmiglione, Graffiacane, Wylgart, and while I can't seem to find it on the wiki I was sure there was a god of innovation with firearm as a favored weapon. Certainly it's a balance issue non-Golarion settings may have to deal with. Even without that I found net, stone dagger, hand crossbow, and sling as favored weapons. That's a ranged weapon that doesn't deal any damage at all, a primitive weapon, an exotic weapon that is terrible and slow loading, and a weapon that can never get its load time reduced to a free action except for halflings.
Paizo now has to make all of them as good as Erastil's longbow, Sarenrae's scimitar, Shelyn's glaive and Gorum's greatsword.
Or they can give up this misguided notion and make a class that is expected to use its martial weapon proficiency.
Here's hoping they see reason.
Is this really subtle satire?
The ability to reflavor is wonderful.
"But your scythe doesn't have x4?!"
"Of course not. Mine is special. Handed down to me by Pharasma her self, to rid the world of those who choose to halt the procession of life."
Well mines made of black fires gifted to me by outsiders using my body as a vessel for holy energies while I emulate a chosen angel of Pharasma. Because I'm just that cool! Doesn't your weapon deal holy damage with an 18-20 critical? All I had to do was use this holy symbol dagger to summon it!
Lots of ways to do cool things.
Jason likes the idea of favored weapons. So do several other people on this forum, in all probability along with a deal of other people on the design board, and out in the real world.
I suspect it's time to call defeat on that one, regardless of how we feel about the subject of unachieveable character concepts.
As much as this bothers me, you are right. There is still a very important point that must be addressed. Will a Warpriest be able to imbue a weapon that is not their deity's favored weapon? No matter what, I will never want to use a dagger as my weapon as a Warpriest of Pharasma.
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It does not sound like you won't be able to buff non-favored weapon (nor did it ever...)
It sounds like favored weapons will get additional buffs.
So the class will be a heavy self buff class (crossing fingers some of my suggestions are stolen) and the buffs will apply to everything, but favored weapons will get an extra bonus.
Looking forward to the PDF.
The ability to reflavor is wonderful.
"But your scythe doesn't have x4?!"
"Of course not. Mine is special. Handed down to me by Pharasma her self, to rid the world of those who choose to halt the procession of life."Well mines made of black fires gifted to me by outsiders using my body as a vessel for holy energies while I emulate a chosen angel of Pharasma. Because I'm just that cool! Doesn't your weapon deal holy damage with an 18-20 critical? All I had to do was use this holy symbol dagger to summon it!
Lots of ways to do cool things.
That would be cool actually. You have a focus that is your gods favored weapon, and with it you can summon any martial weapon with the following bonus X at levels Y
Have your cake and eat it sucka's! The class still uses its favored weapon AND its the most versatile combatant! boosh.
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It does not sound like you won't be able to buff non-favored weapon (nor did it ever...)
It sounds like favored weapons will get additional buffs.
So the class will be a heavy self buff class (crossing fingers some of my suggestions are stolen) and the buffs will apply to everything, but favored weapons will get an extra bonus.
Looking forward to the PDF.
It still sounds like that.
"With the rewrite, the favored weapon of your god is going to become something you want to use, not just something you are forced to use. "This reads "You will be forced to use it, but you will want to!" to me.
This sentence does not confirm that you can use other weapons. And considering that the current version of the class still forces you to use your deity's favored weapon, and the Devs did not say that you will not be forced to use the favored weapon, I am still skeptical.
Something straight forward could be adding straight damage to the weapon (ala 1d6 per three levels cap at 6d6). I am interested in how they will solve the "to hit" issue without a full BAB.Perhaps they'll borrow the static unarmed damage increases from the monk, and say if you use favored weapon, you do X damage regardless of type?I really hope not. That would completely ruin the idea of Favored Weapons, and be too easily abused. It also basically solves nothing as instead of there being 4 counterbalancing factors for which deity you pick for the weapon, there are just 3, and it makes picking a deity with a weapon that has better crit ranges and multipliers, or some extra features while (unless the base damage starts at 2d6 or higher), kind of nerfs the ones that should have Warpriests to begin with.Something to remember (and be wary of) is that divine casters have several spells that can supercharge themselves. Sure the warpriest looks puny with his 3/4 BAB, but he also has divine power, righteous Might, Magical Circle Against Evil, Archon's Aura, Magic Vestment, and Magic Weapon cast on himself. Cleric's happen to do that pretty well at the moment, and it was one of the big reasons they could (and still can) steal the spotlight. Buff buff buff, and a number of those have a good duration. There's actually a chance that without class features to give it oomph, the cleric will still do it better.
Pfft, my dagger is way cool! Its on fire, has a bunch of runes on it, cool holy symbol and sanctified in the name of the mistress we serve... Just not as cool as a really big sword. I like big swords, everyone even calls them great swords!If everyone just gets a +1d6(?), the people that where probably not going to play Warpriests of Pharasma anyway are still going to complain that daggers are not uberkool.
:)
This is my concern as well. If the buffs are going to be the thing that brings this 3/4 BAB class up to snuff for frontline fighting (and they certainly can) then that is all well and good. However, without a dedicated spell-list or some alteration, the Warpriest is going to be using MUCH weaker buffs than a Cleric of the same level. Its hard to say that the Warpriest is going to be a better fighter when the Cleric is casting Righteous Might and Divine Power before a fight at 9th level and the Warpriest is pretty much still stuck on Divine Favor.
The biggest problem I have with this class isn't the Favored Weapon issue, it's the prepared spellcasting. I had the same problem with the Magus. Spontaneous spellcasting says "combat", prepared spellcasting says "utility". Battle is chaotic and fluid, and requires improvisation. Why are combat classes given prepared spellcasting? I'll never understand that.
Me balance favored weapons!
Cool Favored Weapon Stuff (Su) - You pray and throw favored weapon on ground. Boom! Smoke! Favored weapon vanish. Deity go "Woot!" give you one boon like these per level.
Ta da! That easy.
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The ability to reflavor is wonderful.
"But your scythe doesn't have x4?!"
"Of course not. Mine is special. Handed down to me by Pharasma her self, to rid the world of those who choose to halt the procession of life."
I generally agree, but there are some cases where it just isn't workable(ranged<->melee for example) and there are many GMs who won't allow reskinning at all. And then there's PFS players.
Staying hopeful though.
(full disclosure, I don't even need a X4 to enjoy a scythe, I just need it to live up to the theme and be reasonably functional)
Me balance favored weapons!
Cool Favored Weapon Stuff (Su) - You pray and throw favored weapon on ground. Boom! Smoke! Favored weapon vanish. Deity go "Woot!" give you one boon like these per level.Ta da! That easy.
That is incredibly elegant and exactly the kind of thing I'm hoping for - akin to the paladin choosing between a mount and a weapon when he gains Divine Bond or the druid choosing between a domain or an animal companion when he gains Nature Bond.
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Having a bonus to one thing does not preclude use of another thing.
The issue isn't that the favored weapon gets a bonus. The issue is that the class itself doesn't give enough bonuses to make them effective in combat.
I'm hoping the route is to give a selections of ways to self buff as a replacement for the blessings (which as I said, don't work well or fit as currently constituted) and I've made my suggestions.
If there are ways to buff your scythe to a point of being effective, who cares that there are also separate bonuses if you use a dagger?
We'll see when the PDF rolls out, but I really wish there would be less "The sky is falling" when a single bonus ability isn't exactly what you want it to be.
Having a bonus to one thing does not preclude use of another thing.
It can though. Sometimes the bonus is too good to give up. If I get a bonus for using one thing that's large enough I'd be an idiot not to use it. If I need to function properly and survive I'd be an idiot not to use it. I know its hard to believe, but if your a fighter you shouldn't be using a weapon you don't have weapon training with, and if your a wizard you should be casting spells etc. Sure you can choose not to, but why would you? Mind you these things aren't the same as favored weapon, because favored weapon is chosen for you. Sure you can choose another god, but then your compromising your character.
We'll see when the PDF rolls out, but I really wish there would be less "The sky is falling" when a single bonus ability isn't exactly what you want it to be.
Keep in mind the sky is falling is your words. Why is it in quotes? No ones said that.
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We'll see when the PDF rolls out, but I really wish there would be less "The sky is falling" when a single bonus ability isn't exactly what you want it to be.Keep in mind the sky is falling is your words. Why is it in quotes? No ones said that.
Would you prefer the following quotes
"The class is dead to me"
"you suck if you choose another weapon."
"a punishment."
"without the favored weapon of their deity that woudl make them a very lame class and a waste of space and work"
"Because the god do not waht his warpriest to suck for no reason."
Etc, etc...
We'll see when the PDF rolls out, but I really wish there would be less "The sky is falling" when a single bonus ability isn't exactly what you want it to be.Keep in mind the sky is falling is your words. Why is it in quotes? No ones said that.Would you prefer the following quotes
"The class is dead to me"
"you suck if you choose another weapon."
"a punishment."
"without the favored weapon of their deity that woudl make them a very lame class and a waste of space and work"
"Because the god do not waht his warpriest to suck for no reason."
Etc, etc...
Considering that we have no confirmation that a warpriest cannot buff non-favored weapons, these are valid fears. This is a playtest, and it is a player's job to think the sky is falling about every problem in an attempt to get every problem recognized and fixed.
We'll see when the PDF rolls out, but I really wish there would be less "The sky is falling" when a single bonus ability isn't exactly what you want it to be.Keep in mind the sky is falling is your words. Why is it in quotes? No ones said that.Would you prefer the following quotes
"The class is dead to me"
"you suck if you choose another weapon."
"a punishment."
"without the favored weapon of their deity that woudl make them a very lame class and a waste of space and work"
"Because the god do not waht his warpriest to suck for no reason."
Etc, etc...
And no one said the sky is falling. Nice list of people saying they don't like something though. Gotta' empathize, understand what people saying that mean without just dismissing them or treating them like doomsayers who don't mean or know anything.
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My guess is that people playing a character utterly devoted to the militant arm of their deity's church don't want to use the deity's weapon? For some reason?
Because they are going to change the class so you can't buff non-sacred weapons?
Well that would be keeping it as written really. Sacred weapon is a buff that really doesn't work on your non-favored weapons as written. A full +5 enhancement your missing out on bro.
Divine Favor is going to be favored weapon only?
Pretty sure no one said that. Probably safe to say that means no one thinks that.
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Pretty simple.
Favored weapon dagger! Now go fight Zombies, flying monsters, enemies with reach, or do more damage by 2 handing that dagger.
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Why are people so against favored weapons? I personally always wondered why the Cleric and Paladin didn't have more favored weapon-focused abilities.
My guess is that people playing a character utterly devoted to the militant arm of their deity's church don't want to use the deity's weapon? For some reason?
This is because favored weapons are silly and make no sense. Why would a god be more interested in your weapon than your actions?
Rovagug and Gorum should not care about what weapon you wield, as long as it is wielded in their names. Similiarly, I doubt Iomedae cares if you use a longsword, greatsword, or even your fist to fight evil, as long as evil is being fought. I also doubt that the wise Pharasma wants you to face against undead with a small ritual dagger either, especially when skeletons and liches resist slashing and piercing weapons.
Also the Heralds of the gods themselves do not care one little bit about their god's favored weapon. Gorum's herald The First Blade uses a hammer. Abadar's Lawgiver uses a hammer. If the herald of a god does not care about it's god's favored weapon, why would a warrior of a god do so?
Im pretty sure i will have been ninjaed by the time i post this, but...
People are not so much against favored weapons as worried that the class will be overly tied to them, forcing people to compromise in their character concepts in order to build what they want to play.
For instance if the favored mechanic is core to the warpriest, like Smite Evil for the paladin or Bane for the inquisitor, it means that the only way to play an archer warpriest is to worship a god who has a bow as a favored weapon.
Again, most of the posters that I have seen are not opposed to the idea of the warpriest having access or even getting bonuses when using favored weapons. They are however concerned that if these bonuses are too dominant to nt use (like spell combat for the magus, or smite evil for the paladin) it will stifle variety (all Gorum warpriests use Greatswords. Always) and punish people for trying to play something different.
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And no one said the sky is falling. Nice list of people saying they don't like something though. Gotta' empathize, understand what people saying that mean without just dismissing them or treating them like doomsayers who don't mean or know anything.
Captain selective outrage...
Did I say what you are saying or are you now putting words in my mouth while complaining about words being put in your mouth. Because
Pro-tip: this is why you and I don't get along.
You don't get to complain about people misrepresenting your argument while you misrepresent other peoples arguments. Like you are doing in this post.
On topic, it is a bonus to a weapon.
That is all it is.
Period, full stop.
It doesn't mean other buffs and bonuses don't work, it doesn't prevent you from using other weapons.
It improves one weapon. At frankly a fairly modest pace.
I didn't even go back that far for the quotes I pulled, which were (and are since some were from this page) hyperbolic and ridiculous.
It's just a bonus. Because it is a favored weapon. So the god gave a bonus for using it. Because it is favored.
So flavor matching mechanics, not precluding anything else. Hell, you are more able to use other weapons than you would as a cleric, since a cleric has to take a feat to use anything other than simple or the favored effectively.
It doesn't prevent anything. This whole kurfluffle...well to quote Derrick Coleman: "Woop de damn do"