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I remain of the mind that their limited number of class mechanics coupled with how limited they are in scope means they could be a full BAB class with sixth level spells, yet remain fair. Paizo has never done that before, of this I am aware, but it also doesn't mean it shouldn't at least be considered.
I'd just like to point out that the duskblade did exactly this without being overpowered.
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Well, there was one overpowered Duskblade variant. They quickly realized their mistake and rectified it, however. The duskblade players came to know and enjoy was well balanced, high functioning despite its smaller number of class mechanics as compared to some other classes, and gave the feel of being a fully realized combat hybrid without overshadowing anyone else. It could fight and cast, but that fighter in the corner still did better in matters of a purely martial nature (although back then, a cleric made them all look like a joke >_>). Likewise did the sorcerer far exceed them in terms of raw casting ability, so it made for a good utilitarian character that still filled its niche well. That is what I would like to see from warpriest as well. Y'know, I did just spot a touch of irony in the mention of the duskblade. If you look at their class mechanics, it's pretty obvious that class served as the precursor to the magus. I'd call it irony due to all the people trying to get the warpriest to work like a magus already, while others argue against it because they want the magus to remain unique.
I would also like to point out the fact that if necessary, Paizo could always restrict its spell list. The warpriest can currently draw from the whole of the cleric list (up to sixth level, obviously) without any real limitations save those imposed by alignment. What I am going to recommend is that they be granted full access to buffs, cure/inflict, and probably heal as well as harm. There would obviously still be the need for at least SOME utility spells to be thrown in as well, but probably keep that to the bare minimum needed for this class to fulfill its intended function adequately.
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I don't think the warpriest is intended to be a non-LG paladin.
It's a less casty more fighty cleric.
It may fit the same role in a party that a paladin does without the LG requirement, but it should not be paladin-lite.
I don't think the warpriest is intended to be a non-LG paladin.
It's a less casty more fighty cleric.
It may fit the same role in a party that a paladin does without the LG requirement, but it should not be paladin-lite.
+1
Wow...that would be awesome! Then it'd be like a Yamabushi or Sohei...
If they can Buff themselves using something akin to spell combat, then they do not need full BAB.
If they can't, well then that becomes a different discussion, but Full BAB is a very big deal, and you would have to gut out pretty much everything but spellcasting from the class to balance it.
So, if we go level by level and factor in just divine favor (assuming it can be cast as part of spell combat or as a swift) we can look at the actual progression of attack bonuses they will have.
Level/BAB/Divine Favor bonus/total:
1st: +0,+1 = +1
2nd: +1,+1 = +2
3rd: +2,+2 = +4
4th: +3,+2 = +5
5th: +3,+2 = +5
6th: +4,+3 = +7
7th: +5,+3 = +8
8th: +6,+3 = +9
9th: +6,+3 = +9
10th: +7,+3 = +10
So, we can see that for 10 levels just divine favor keep the Warpriest's attack bonus very solid. They don't get as many iterative attacks, but through 10 levels they stay on pace, (and getting that nice +4 damage bonus).
Also by this point, they are able to cast Favor six times per day, so pretty much every encounter.
There aren't too many great 2nd level buffs, though depending on your gear, bull's strength might hit the spot.
At 7th level you can add castings of Deadly Juggernaut.
At 10th level you can go for Divine Power.
At 13th, say hello to righteous might.
I would actually like for a warpriest to be able to cast:
Deadly Juggernaut as a lvl 2 spell
Divine Power as a level 3 spell
Righteous might as a level 4 spell
Greater Heroism as a level 5 spell
Frightful Aspect as a level 6 spell
just to even out the progression of buffs.
And it would be nice to let them cast Frightful aspect, because right now they never get access.
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There seems to be a fair amount of people who want Warpriest to be "like the paladin, but any alignment". I gotta say that this strikes me as unlikely from where the warpriest is right now, but what you could push for is an archetype for the paladin that either completely voids the alignment restriction, or replaces it with a different alignment restriction.
This is "the advanced book about classes" and in my experience Paladins create more debate than any other class, so an archetype or a text section that explores alternate versions of the paladin might be an option?
This is "the advanced book about classes" and in my experience Paladins create more debate than any other class, so an archetype or a text section that explores alternate versions of the paladin might be an option?
There's been a push for that about anything related to alignment, its fallen on deaf ears though.
That said, I wouldn't mind seeing a 4+ skill points, full BAB divinely powered class with flexible class features of its own separate from its kin. If shaman keeps the cleric list we'll have a total of 5 3/4 BAB divine classes, all of which are capable of filling a combat role and 4 of which can perform a combat buffer role.
Alright, so having play tested the Warpriest, and having had played a melee cleric (fighter 1, Cleric 16) through to high level, here are my thoughts on the Warpriest:
- They need either full BAB or a self only buffing spell combat mechanic. but not both. Hitting as hard as a fighter to start and then buffing to hit harder seems like it would break the class. I would prefer the spell combat mechanic simply because it would be more fun. I can't tell you how many times I've felt gimped going into combats that I couldn't prepare for on my Cleric. I would think that a martially focused Cleric would have ways to alleviate this problem.
- I would like to see them get a d10 HD. Many have stated that the HD is tied to BAB, and with a d10 comes full BAB. Otherwise it breaks some internal rules. I'm not sure why that is. I'm not sure why the two have to be intertwined. Seems silly, but then, maybe there's something I'm missing. As it stands in my mind now, though, there's no reason to not to have 3/4 BAB and a d10 HD.
- Channel Energy makes the class to MAD to me, and if you dump CHA anyhow, you make a class ability that's relatively useless, taking up balance and design space. I would replace this with either the spell combat I suggested earlier, or with an ability to channel cure / inflict spells through the weapon. Though I'm not certain that having to choose either based on alignment is a good idea since this ability would suck hard for good clerics against anything that isn't undead.
- Devs have already admitted this, so I won't spend a lot of time on it, but blessings aren't nearly powerful enough.
- The whole concept of Deities' favored weapons is dumb. Not just for warpriests, but in general. By extension of that, making a class that focuses on the favored weapon is a bad idea, to me. Why would a deity be so wrapped up in such a petty detail as what weapon their chosen worshipers use? "Go out and do work based on my tenets in my name, spreading my philosophies every where you go, but you have to do it with this weapon that I like, which may or may not suck @$$." Instead, shouldn't it be "Go out and do work based on my tenets in my name, spreading my philosophies every where you go, and use whatever tools you feel are most effective to do that work." Shouldn't the tenets and the philosophies be what's really important to a deity? Shouldn't they bless their soldiers based on that? No sacred weapon for Pharasmans that don't use a dagger against the undead seems petty and small.
That's it for now. I may have more later.
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Well, the warpriest just became the first casualty in my Rise of the Runelords playtest (rest of the party: arcanist, hunter, investigator, swashbuckler). Eaten by yeth hounds.
Not sure you can read much into that - the yeth hound fight is incredibly brutal, and no one's going to make a save if they roll a 3 on the dice.
Actually quite a bit of thought has been put into several of the gods weapon of choice (Shelyn comes to mind) and I think it's an excellent choice to make a holy warrior match his (her) gods chosen weapon.There are a thousand role playing reason for them to keep this selection and pretty worthless reasons to remove it. ( Optimization )
Since it's Pathfinder the Role Playing game and not pathfinder the Character Optimization game.. I think it should stay.
I don't think it's dumb either.. and have already built a Warpriest of Calistria that looks like a ton of fun to play. (Trip / Disarm build)
Lot of flavor, The class does need some work, but it's not to far from being a pretty decent class.
Just my 2 cents.
I'm not going to sit here and argue this point to death. It's already been done in this thread. I'm only responding to say that I think you misunderstood my point. I contextualized it for the Warpriest, given the thread topic, but my point was that favored weapon, for any class, is not wise or logical.
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There are a thousand role playing reason for them to keep this selection and pretty worthless reasons to remove it. ( Optimization )
Yeah! People who care if their character is effective are worthless jerks right? Forget those guys.
While I understand you like the flavor, we haven't seen what we get out of the deal yet and choice is important to roleplay and many peoples fun, and being mechanically viable is always important. The reasons aren't worthless, and there are more reasons than just min/maxing.
There are a thousand role playing reason for them to keep this selection and pretty worthless reasons to remove it. ( Optimization )Yeah! People who care if their character is effective are worthless jerks right? Forget those guys.
While I understand you like the flavor, we haven't seen what we get out of the deal yet and choice is important to roleplay and many peoples fun, and being mechanically viable is always important.
Don't most players pick a deity based on what weapon they wanna use anyway?
I expect to see a lot of warpriests of Gorum for this reason.
Sarenrae there will be a lot of, and Erastil as well.
Warpriests of the other deities will be rarer.
Don't most players pick a deity based on what weapon they wanna use anyway?
Depends on a lot of things. I'd rather people pick someone based on who they want to worship/roleplay instead of domains/blessings and weapons personally. Downside to having so much attached to a roleplaying element is it can conflict with what you want to roleplay, but it can have an upside if its flavorful and attractive. At the moment its all +1's, and I'm not a fan of "Well don't play that!" or the statements that make it look like people who want to be more mechanically efficient/viable aren't really roleplayers. Hopefully the next update will help this sort of thing... hopefully.
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There are a thousand role playing reason for them to keep this selection and pretty worthless reasons to remove it. ( Optimization )Yeah! People who care if their character is effective are worthless jerks right? Forget those guys.
Careful. Someone might accuse you of putting words into someones mouth...
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On the other hand I really don't see a strong role playing reason to tie important class features to a single favored weapon, let alone a thousand. Deities will still have favored weapons, it should be up to each warpriest if he wants to honor that aspect of his faith, or not.
Especially when those weapons don't make sense or have been simplified to fit on a list no one really thought would have a mechanical importance, like the god of death or the god of battle - presumably defeating undead would be a core tenet for a warpriest of Pharasma, who favors the dagger. Good luck taking down the two most common undead (skeletons and zombies) with a piercing weapon.
Or Gorum, whose followers believe is present in "every iron weapon of war that is forged" and whose herald is described as "a horde of animated weapons and shields which swarm together into a humanoid shape approximately the size of an iron golem" - yet the warpriests ONLY focus on THFing with the Greatsword, because that's the only weapon specifically listed.
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If you are a warpriest, literally a warrior for your god, why would the god not give incentive to use the weapon they favor.
That is what we are talking about. Incentive.
You don't need to take a feat if you select the weapon the god favors (or a simple weapon). You do need to take a feat if you want to select one the god doesn't favor.
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If you are a warpriest, literally a warrior for your god, why would the god not give incentive to use the weapon they favor.
That is what we are talking about. Incentive.
You don't need to take a feat if you select the weapon the god favors (or a simple weapon). You do need to take a feat if you want to select one the god doesn't favor.
Because there are lots of weapons in the world, many of which are really good for war, or slaying things, or for slaying a particular type of thing, or for slaying in a particular way. Like the Gorum example above, he's also big on armor spikes and many other weapons of war. That said, if incentive is proficiency and weapon focus its not that bad, but if its a full +5 enhancement of your weapon for instance its much more forced than just an incentive.
Some god are also really big into a certain weapon because backstory, but others the weapon is just an almost random pick that doesn't matter much. Shelyn using the Glaive has a backstory, but why does Pazuzu get a longsword or Rovagog a greataxe, or Groetus a heavy flail? We can make up reasons, but we really don't have such a backstory like Shelyn. "Why do you use a falchion misses Cleric of Lamashtu?" "I don't know, someone told me Lamashtu thought it was cool."
There is not a feat. That is entirely theoretical and its a tax and not the perfect solution.
If you are a warpriest, literally a warrior for your god, why would the god not give incentive to use the weapon they favor.
That is what we are talking about. Incentive.
You don't need to take a feat if you select the weapon the god favors (or a simple weapon). You do need to take a feat if you want to select one the god doesn't favor.
Paladins are literal warriors of their deity...
You'd think a class with an alignment restriction would be more restrictive than one without.
In any event, if they can miraculously balance all the silly Favored Weapon options of the deities I'll be happy still. I just know somewhere in the book will be sacrificed for the word count.
No one is saying that every single Warpriest of Pharasma will use a Dagger. Some might use Morningstars or others battle axes, but those that use the Dagger should gain a small bonus for using thier gods favored weapon.
Back onto the favored weapon thing... Bleh. Hard to find much to talk about when the class doesn't have much to talk about and is up for a revision.
No one is saying that every single Warpriest of Pharasma will use a Dagger. Some might use Morningstars or others battle axes, but those that use the Dagger should gain a small bonus for using thier gods favored weapon.
Well at the moment its a full +5 enhancement. That's a bit more than incentive imo.
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Back onto the favored weapon thing... Bleh. Hard to find much to talk about when the class doesn't have much to talk about and is up for a revision.
Its frustrating when people defend a draconic and completely baseless requirement such as a Deity's Favored Weapon when we close to never actually know the reason for it.
Warpriest Scripture Pg.385 Paragraph 7
AND THOU SHALL USE YOUR DEITY'S FAVORED WEAPON, EVEN THOUGH IT HAD NO PRIOR EXPLANATION OF WHY THAT WAS THEIR FAVORED WEAPON REGARDLESS OF IT'S EFFECTIVENESS WHEN SOMEONE IS ABOUT TO KILL YOU.
ADDENDUM: AND HOPEFULLY IF YOUR FAITH IS STRONG ENOUGH, IT'LL BE JUST AS GOOD AS THAT GREATSWORD ABOUT TO CLEAVE YOU.
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No one is saying that every single Warpriest of Pharasma will use a Dagger. Some might use Morningstars or others battle axes, but those that use the Dagger should gain a small bonus for using thier gods favored weapon.Well at the moment its a full +5 enhancement. That's a bit more than incentive imo.
Or actually a feat.
But don't let that get in the way of hyperbole.
I know that Paladins don't lie awake at night, wondering if they're adequately representing their deity if they don't use the favored weapon. Favored weapon is a clerical class feature, I don't see any good reason to saddle the warpriest with it.
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I know that Paladins don't lie awake at night, wondering if they're adequately representing their deity if they don't use the favored weapon. Favored weapon is a clerical class feature, I don't see any good reason to saddle the warpriest with it.
Because it appears to be one of the central components of the class...
If you don't like favored weapons, house rule them out. They are a part of the game.
No one is saying that every single Warpriest of Pharasma will use a Dagger. Some might use Morningstars or others battle axes, but those that use the Dagger should gain a small bonus for using thier gods favored weapon.Well at the moment its a full +5 enhancement. That's a bit more than incentive imo.Or actually a feat.
But don't let that get in the way of hyperbole.
A feat you made up. You can leave that out of the conversation.
Well, since we're on the favored weapon thing, again, would it be okay if they opened up the sacred weapon to all proficient weapons and added a feat that gave you a bonus when using sacred weapon with your deity's favored weapon?
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I know that Paladins don't lie awake at night, wondering if they're adequately representing their deity if they don't use the favored weapon. Favored weapon is a clerical class feature, I don't see any good reason to saddle the warpriest with it.
"Through a select, worthy few shines the power of the divine. Called paladins, these noble souls dedicate their swords and lives to the battle against evil. Knights, crusaders, and law-bringers, paladins seek not just to spread divine justice but to embody the teachings of the virtuous deities they serve. In pursuit of their lofty goals, they adhere to ironclad laws of morality and discipline. As reward for their righteousness, these holy champions are blessed with boons to aid them in their quests: powers to banish evil, heal the innocent, and inspire the faithful. Although their convictions might lead them into conflict with the very souls they would save, paladins weather endless challenges of faith and dark temptations, risking their lives to do right and fighting to bring about a brighter future."
vs
"Warrior of the faith, skilled at arms and armor, the
warpriest is a soldier for his faith. Capable of calling
upon the power of the gods in the form of blessings and
spells, the warpriest blends divine magic with martial
skill. Although many think of the paladin as the ultimate
warrior of faith, the warpriest can serve any deity and his
morals can more closely match those of his god."
Actually [...]They are warriors of divine justice.
This is broadly true, but Paizo has also published deity-specific content for paladins, including codes of conduct for various deities, and none of those require the use of favored weapons.
Again, using Gorum as an example - a follower of the god of Battle with a capital B should be able to handle a variety of weapons equally well because each weapon has its own rightful place on the battlefield - only acknowledging the Greatsword as a worthy weapon and focusing exclusively on that would be to turn your back on all the other wonderful implements of warfare, even when those weapons would be better suited for the task at hand. Personally when I envision a warpriest of Gorum I imagine a priest clad in spiked plate and bedecked in weaponry, carrying the Leatherman equivalent of an arsenal.
Ultimately I guess what I'm saying is that if the bonuses Warpriests get for using their deity's favored weapon are so powerful and at the same time so weapon-specific that the warpriest is punished for not using the favored weapon of his deity, it will negatively affect class variety and at times negatively affect the class itself. That would be a shame for a class that is meant to represent various aspects of each god.
It's not an insignificant problem and it would be easy to write a solution before the class is published, which is why we're pointing it out.
Edit: Hm, realized I just quoted one of the posts that was removed - should I remove the quote?
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A feat you made up. You can leave that out of the conversation.No one is saying that every single Warpriest of Pharasma will use a Dagger. Some might use Morningstars or others battle axes, but those that use the Dagger should gain a small bonus for using thier gods favored weapon.Well at the moment its a full +5 enhancement. That's a bit more than incentive imo.Or actually a feat.
But don't let that get in the way of hyperbole.
Because it weakens your hyperbole?
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I would really rather not lock a stickied thread. Please drop it and move on.
Because it weakens your hyperbole?A feat you made up. You can leave that out of the conversation.No one is saying that every single Warpriest of Pharasma will use a Dagger. Some might use Morningstars or others battle axes, but those that use the Dagger should gain a small bonus for using thier gods favored weapon.Well at the moment its a full +5 enhancement. That's a bit more than incentive imo.Or actually a feat.
But don't let that get in the way of hyperbole.
No, because its made up. I am being honest. Sacred Weapon in the docutment only works with the weapon you chose for focus weapon(which was likely chosen for you.) So there really is a +5 enhancement you don't get because you chose to use another weapon.
Perhaps we should move the favored weapon discussion to another forum?
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Well, since we're on the favored weapon thing, again, would it be okay if they opened up the sacred weapon to all proficient weapons and added a feat that gave you a bonus when using sacred weapon with your deity's favored weapon?
Why?
Just make it a feat to have it on any weapon that is not the favored weapon of your deity.
Why would the default not be using the weapon favored by the deity? It is literally the weapon favored by the deity.
Well, since we're on the favored weapon thing, again, would it be okay if they opened up the sacred weapon to all proficient weapons and added a feat that gave you a bonus when using sacred weapon with your deity's favored weapon?
I'd dig that. Options, not limitations.