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The more I think about, the more I come to the conclusion that the animal aspects would be too weak even if they were permanent. I'd call that pretty damning.
Thankfully, this is a test! Make the aspects 10min/lvl, give the class full BAB and favourite terrain from the ranger, drop the spells back to the ranger progression and ranger list, and up skill points to 6/level. Improve the weapon list some, and I think it'll look a lot more workable.
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Honestly though the more I think about it the Ranger is the hunter and this class feels forced. Like they wanted a "magus" for the divine nature types. This class needs a new name and direction all together to fill a theme neither the druid or ranger already does. My 2 copper
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It's tough to make a comment about what change I'd make to the class because the whole class feels a bit shaky. I was totally excited about this class and it feels like a letdown.
It feels like it doesn't know which direction it wants to go... It simply feels like it's a nerfed druid with different saves and a weakened and circumstantial wild-shape.
If it's meant to be a class that works in tandem with its animal companion, it seems odd it has a 3/4 BAB and decent spell casting!
If it's meant to be the ultimate tracker, give it trapping abilities and let its pet assist in tracking down a foe!
If it's meant to be the guy with the awesome animal companion, give it some eidolon-type points to boost the animal!
At this point it feels like it's worse than a ranger at tracking, worse than a ranger at fighting, has worse spellcasting than a druid, has crummier class features than either class, and doesn't have any perks besides teamwork feats (which aren't exactly awesome..yet..)!
Don't get me wrong, I want this class to succeed! Nothing gets me giddier than a leaf and poop covered hunter stalking with his best friend, the wolf!
Animal Focus has good flavor and is the coolest most unique thing about the class; but mechanically it falls short. It would be nice if it focused on that ability making it the key ability of the class ala smite evil, spell strike, wildshape, sneak sttack, etc. etc.. it could add additional benefits at later levels. Some Combat others not.
A "hunter" that doesn't gain the advantage in the forest (favored terrain)? What's up with that?
It could be like a druid who protects their glade, but instead of doing it with nature magic, they do it with ass kicking. Stalking the intruders, laying traps, sending their animal(s) after them, or having them spy on the intruder, and ultimately attacking.
So many cool ways to go with this class, and none of it happened.
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Honestly though the more I think about it the Ranger is the hunter and this class feels forced. Like they wanted a "magus" for the divine nature types. This class needs a new name and direction all together to fill a theme neither the druid or ranger already does. My 2 copper
This.
Brainstorming (or Keyboard Diarrhea):
What if this class was like a hybrid of the magus/arcane archer but with druid/ranger spells, an animal companion (full or ranger advancement [/shrug]), and limited wildshape? I would call it something other than Hunter at that point...
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Some of the stuff I found that I have taken umbrage with on a mechanics level.
Hunter
Hunter's Tactics: Hunter's Tactics needs to mention that you need to have the appropriate equipment to perform the teamwork feats as well. Otherwise how the hell does an animal companion manage to form a shield wall when it cannot wield a shield?
Animal Focus: The Falcon buff needs a serious overhaul. As it stands its bonuses when combined with the hard 1 minute time limit are not really that useful, leaving it only as something that will really be appealing if you absolutely need to spot something while in combat that you cannot see but are aware of or would be something that you as the player would use preemptively before combat to spot an ambush and get into the surprise round. This problem is further exacerbated by the fact that the wolf aspect can also fill both of the aforementioned roles and in a much better capacity since it doesn't have to worry lighting and considering the small spaces most encounters happen in the small range is kind of moot.
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The comment about lack of viability as an archery-focused character is valid. Stephen and I talked about it and we definitely want to put some ranged-based teamwork feats in the book so hunter-archers can take advantage of them.
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The comment about lack of viability as an archery-focused character is valid. Stephen and I talked about it and we definitely want to put some ranged-based teamwork feats in the book so hunter-archers can take advantage of them.
Is there any way we will get to see some of these during the beta? That might help us figure out the viability of a ranged build.
Also I would love to see the ability to use things like firearms with this class (riflemen with his hound anyone).
Do Not Like. I have to admit I was disappointed.
1. Needs Full Bab. If not full bab, have a focus fighting method "archery, or melee" (choose) and at lvl 1 and every 4 levels after that get +1 to hit with this specific "hunting style", closing the gap, but still leaving the class at 3/4 bab.
2. Needs evasion, even earlier, maybe as early as lvl 6.
3. Needs Archery feats, instead of 1 min aspect of +1 sigh, How about a useful free archery feat to close the gap - Inherit the Ranger Chain Choose from Crossbows, or Bows - and take the chain.
4. Does need 6 skill points per level or maybe the newly unheard of 5?
5. Spells are interesting, but don't add much. Missing Key Ranger Spells if it is a hybrid. Abundant ammunition. How about lvl 1-4 Ranger Spells and lvl 1-4 Druid spells Progression? Druid spells are super useful at lvl 1 - Aspect of the Falcon at lvl 1? Yes please.
6. Instead of Rangers Endurance, how about a free diehard?
7. I'm on board with the More Magus/Arcane archer with druid/ranger spells version discussed above. A complete reworking of the spell list please.
Here are a few Ideas I felt like I could make a better Hunter with existing rules:
a. Ranger, lvl 4. Archer. Boon Companion. Roc as pet or boar. Good,solid,hunting there.
b. Summoner, (hold on), Lvl 1 Fighter with all archer tricks and "owlbear" eidolon - still doable. Spells work in light armor.
c. Magus, Not the terrible, god awful, Myrmidarch, no,no,no. A normal Human Magus, Specced for archery, with 1 level of druid for a familiar and boon companion. Much more utility. Spells work in up to heavy armor.
Need more martial weapon proficiencies. Hunter's I envision aren't limited to druid weapons.
This does seem like a precarious place though. The fixes everyone's talking about, pretty much amount to a full BAB ranger with Druid spells and Animal Companion. Which may be over powered (cough AD&D had them with Druid and wizard spells but was never overpowered, cough). Sorry, phlegm.
So here's my solution:
1. d8 Hit points (2d8? Don't shoot me!)
2. 3/4 Bab - BUT Has two "hunting styles" to choose from:Ranged or Melee
3. The chosen "style" gets +1 to hit at lvl 1 and +1 every 4 levels, closing the gap on that one group.
4. Full martial weapons OR all simple weapons AND 3-4 Weapons chosen from the "Hunting Style" Allowing people to pick and choose what their hunter gets:
Hunting Style gets 3 weapons of one style and 1 of the other. (i.e. Melee takes Greatsword, Greataxe, longsword, and Heavy Crossbow, while
Ranged could take Longbow, Shortbow, Light Crossbow, and Greatsword.
5. Proficiency in light and medium armors and can cast spells in them. Melee Hunters get all shields with a requirement of wood and darkwood for tower shields. Ranged Hunters get light shields only.
6. A complete reworking of the spell list into a druid/ranger hybrid. I'm talking Aspect of the Falcon AND Abundant Ammunition. (Paizo, Mr Bulmahn, I am graciously awaiting your email and would love to work with you!)
7. Animal Companion - Expand the list and keep the rest as is, with maybe an animal-only "Breath of life" available by level 7?
8. "Diehard" for free. Seriously, who's it gonna hurt? The melee styles need it.
9. A reduced spell list, maybe down to level 5 (there is those odd numbers again!)
10. A Class Enhancer - at lvls 3,6,9 At lvl 3 the "safe" equivalent of 1 evolution point added to animal companions. What do I mean by "safe?" Improve intelligence, add a skill, add ac or hit points or even dr at lvl 6. Just something to make them stand out. That is all.
lvl 3 - 1 "safe" evolution point added to the animal companions
Lvl 6 - one "safe"evolution point or evasion. Choose wisely.
Lvl 9 - One more "safe" evolution point, evasion, or advanced evasion. Choose wisely. Again.
11. Seriously. Diehard feat for Ranged, and Toughness Free for melee. at lvl 3 (I'll shut up about the Die Hard now)
12. And a Favored Terrain. 1. That's it.
13 And 1 Favored Enemy. 1. That's it.
14. Unlike Rangers, Perhaps the Hunter could be described as "more local"
15. Allow Feat expenditures to allow new terrain and enemy purchases.
Ranger was my favorite and most loved class, until I found the Magus. And I had 6 Hunters back when I played WOW. So yeah, I like em.
The Hunter needs to have a feat to be able to choose an additional Animal Focus (using the same total of uses of the Animal Focus). And a feat to be able to get more uses. Why? Bravestarr, of course! That way you can have Strength of the Near, Nose of the Wolf, Perception of the Falcon, and Speed of the Stag.
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The other thing that is really surprising is the animal companions ability. Considering how integral they are supposed to be to the class there really is little that was actually added to them and I feel like that is a big oversight.
My solution would be to add more companion options like say the ability to have ANIMAL INTELLIGENCE LEVEL magical beasts, aberrations, and maybe even some dragons as optional animal companions. I would love to have a hydra animal companion or an Owlbear even if they have to use more modified stats like those that normal animals get when they become AC's.
Animal Focus: I am dissatisfied with this because it doesn't involve player choice. A desert hunter with a frog aspect? An arctic hunter with a monkey aspect? I'd like to see them starting with two or three aspects, and gaining others, and it would be nice if it tied in to their animal companions more (although inspiration is not striking me right now).
Teamwork: Most recent feat restriction requires bookkeeping. This is somewhat of a pain for publishing NPCs and for PCs, although I would probably just assume the last one listed is the most recent, if this ability called out which feats were taken in a writeup.
Master Hunter: This is already the name of the Ranger's different 20th level ability.
Overall... I see a druid giving up three spellcasting levels to become a tracker and pet trainer. Skeletally, it has more in common with the Summoner than its component classes. I have a hard time loving a class called "Hunter" with medium BAB. I was expecting a full BAB, ranger-casting class with the druid's animal companion, terrain bonuses, and some kind of unique striking capability (especially ranged options). Taken as a six level casting, medium BAB class built around animal companions and bonuses thereto, it seems like it could use more that are its own. It seems like what happens if you built a straightup druid and just ignore wildshape. Since the class lacks favored enemy, the AC is possibly not as good at fighting as a ranger's, despite being more HD.
A reduced, or even removed, spell list that fits the theme better in exchange for some other benefits - perhaps some more, even permanent at an earlier point animal aspects - would be what would make this fit the niche I wanted it to.We would really like to avoid creating a new spell list for any of these classes, which is why none of them have unique spell lists (they all use the spell list of another class). Every time we create a new class spell list, we have to (1) spend a lot of lines in the book re-listing all of the existing spells that should be on that list, and (2) add to the amount of text in a spell stat block to call out which classes the spell belongs to.
As an example of #1, the list of alchemist extracts, inqusitor spells, and summoner spells in the APG each take up an entire column of space (or close to it), and ditto for the magus spell list in UM. Likewise, the spell lists in Ultimate Magic take up 9 pages, 3 of which are spell lists for classes that aren't in the Core Rulebook. If those classes didn't have unique spell lists, that's 3 additional pages of spells we could have had in Ultimate Magic. Now, I'm not saying that ALL new classes shouldn't have unique spell lists, but as all of the classes in the ACG are hybrids of existing classes, it's reasonable to try giving them access to existing spell lists.
As an example of #2, a spell stat block already has to call out alchemist, antipaladin, bard, cleric, druid, inquisitor, magus, paladin, ranger, sorcerer/wizard, summoner, and witch.
ACG classes could potentially add arcanist, bloodrager, hunter, investigator, shaman, skald, and warpriest listings.Do not all of the spells on the druid spell list seem to be a perfect fit for the hunter? Sure.
But not all of the spells on the cleric spell list fit for fire clerics, death clerics, or healing clerics... but there are many, many types of cleric characters you can build, and there will be many, many types of hunter characters you'll be...
Sean, I hear you on this, but have you guys considered the summoner spell list sans eidolon spells? It seems more useful for the 6/9 spell level caster who buffs his combat buddy than the purely druid spell list; granted it does not have as much nature-oriented goodness, but there is a little there. There is a precedent with the bloodrager taking the magus spell list, even though the magus was not one of its alternate classes.
Also, I wholeheartedly support more ranged teamwork feats. In fact, what if you did up a couple of teamwork combat styles? You could have a mounted combat style where you have feats/abilities helping you fight while riding your AC. You could do a courser combat style where you have your AC flush out prey and chase them in the open or towards you with their greater speed. You could have a distraction combat style where the AC keeps the targets attention on them while you pepper the target with arrows. You could have an ambush formation fighting style that grants bonuses on sneaking and attacking from cover for both you and your AC. I'm sure we could brainstorm a couple more styles, too.
Okay, so what I would like to see from the Hunter.
1) No spells.... none. All supernatural stuff happening here.
2) Full BAB
3) No companion
4) Hunter Tricks: This would be a list of Ex and Su abilities that animals get, Scent, Darkvision, Tremorsense, enhanced movement, energy resistance, and a few of the animal foci (like snake) could be transplanted right into this list. These are always active.
5) Animal Form: Rather than wildshaping, the hunter adopts an animalistic aspect. He gains bonuses to Str, Dex or Con based on level (Hunter's choice as to how these bonuses are distributed). These are not enhancement bonuses, they should be Morale bonuses.
Tenatively, I would say +2 at 1st level. At 5th, this becomes +4 to one and +2 to a second. At 10th, this becomes +6/+4. At 15 this becomes +8/+6.
5b) While in animal form, the Hunter can gain animal abilities chosen from the Beastshape spell list. He gains the first at 2nd level, then one more at 6th, 10th and 14th. The abilities chosen can be from Beast shape I at 2nd, Beast Shape II at 6th and so on.
The Hunter can use this ability 1/day per at 1st plus one additional time per day for every 4 levels. Animal form lasts 1 minute per level.
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I would have liked to see the animal companion aspect be a little more like the Summoner's Eidolon here, I think. More focused and less random than the evolutions are there (particularly given that these are *animals* and not wild fantasy creatures). Essentially, some more powerful and different permanent buffs to the companion- even some magical ones, at higher levels- than druids or rangers can get. I'd absolutely take those over spellcasting for the Hunter.
Really the low quality and lack of quantity for teamwork feats really hurts here. If this guide comes with more teamwork feats.that will help (plus inquisitors, tactician fighters, and cavaliers will rejoice).
Teamwork feats have yet to actually be worth it. However, the fact that a Hunter can take Ensemble and have it apply to his pet monkey is hilarious. Now the Hunter and his monkey can be a travelling musical thing.
Super.
Just give them Eidolon evolutions, for God's sakes.
It seems odd to me that heavy armor is 'prohibited'. I understand not proficient, but when it comes to druidic oaths and such, I feel that a cold iron spiked breastplate seems less in character than a suit of full plate made out of dragon (or mammoth or purple worm) hide would be. Or stone armor, or darkwood plate or whatever. Especially if they can only use wooden shields.
All in all, I'm not really sure what this class is supposed to be.
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Just skimming through the playtest PDF since it's late but really think that the alignment and armor/shield restrictions are unnecessary not really fitting with the flavor of the class.
Weirdly, it seems like the class that the iconic Druid would be the iconic of.
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One suggestion in regards to spellcasting, allow them to add a number of ranger spells to their spell list equal to their wisdom modifier as hunter spells known. It adds only one line and makes the hunter more unique as a spellcaster.
Another suggestion,
Change animal aspect to insight and have it apply to your companion at later levels.
Yeah Hunter as it stands is both horrible and misnamed. There is a class in PF that is supposed to be exactly what springs to mind when your hear the word "Hunter" and this class isn't it. Honestly this class feels more like another attempt to bring teamwork feats out of obscurity than to actually make a new class. Mechanics wise it doesn't really do much a Druid can't, and a druid can do many things this class cant. With only 10 classes in the book I feel bad that space went to this one, it honestly seems better done as an archetype for ranger or druid, not as a new and separate class.
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I did one for the Brawler and I think I'll do one here.
Change that should (or NEED) to be made to the Hunter (in my opinion, of course):
-More focus on the Animal Companion itself. Perhaps giving it limited casting ability (limited to buff spells only, may only cast them on itself, may only prepare spells of up to 4th level from the Druid list?) so it can beef itself up. Or something akin to Evolution Points, as has been suggested. Or both. Really, the Hunter should be what the mission statement was when it was announced, to make a formidable Hunter-Companion duo. That should be the main focus ABOVE ALL of this class.
-They're working on better Teamwork Feats and ones that complement archery, and this is something that needs to happen and happen well. It can make or break an archery hunter if half his class abilities fail to work when he's not adjacent to his AC.
-SEVERELY overhaul the Animal Focus ability, or scrap it entirely. Half of the abilities are nearly useless, and the ones that aren't are less than stellar. I'd suggest scrapping the stat boosts and the min/level system and revamping it into animal-like abilities the Druid can choose that last hours per level, much like Wild Shape but with a bit less utility. Bonus to Perception checks and affected as if you're using a telescope when you have the spirit of the Eagle. Darkvision from the Owl. Scent from the Wolf. Ferocity from the Boar. Pounce from the Tiger (only available after level 10 or so). And so on. Cut the uses down somewhat, so it caps out at 5/day, but gain 3 or 4 abilities as you level (Additional Animal Focus ability at 5th level and every 5th level thereafter?)
---As a supplement to the above, Master Hunter now either makes one of those benefits permanent (no longer need to use Animal Focus for that ability) or makes Animal Focus usable at-will.
And that's really all that needs to be done, for the most part. The Hunter's main issues lie in those two abilities (his main draws) being lackluster at best.
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I did one for the Brawler and I think I'll do one here.
Change that should (or NEED) to be made to the Hunter (in my opinion, of course):
-More focus on the Animal Companion itself. Perhaps giving it limited casting ability (limited to buff spells only, may only cast them on itself, may only prepare spells of up to 4th level from the Druid list?) so it can beef itself up. Or something akin to Evolution Points, as has been suggested. Or both. Really, the Hunter should be what the mission statement was when it was announced, to make a formidable Hunter-Companion duo. That should be the main focus ABOVE ALL of this class.
-They're working on better Teamwork Feats and ones that complement archery, and this is something that needs to happen and happen well. It can make or break an archery hunter if half his class abilities fail to work when he's not adjacent to his AC.
-SEVERELY overhaul the Animal Focus ability, or scrap it entirely. Half of the abilities are nearly useless, and the ones that aren't are less than stellar. I'd suggest scrapping the stat boosts and the min/level system and revamping it into animal-like abilities the Druid can choose that last hours per level, much like Wild Shape but with a bit less utility. Bonus to Perception checks and affected as if you're using a telescope when you have the spirit of the Eagle. Darkvision from the Owl. Scent from the Wolf. Ferocity from the Boar. Pounce from the Tiger (only available after level 10 or so). And so on. Cut the uses down somewhat, so it caps out at 5/day, but gain 3 or 4 abilities as you level (Additional Animal Focus ability at 5th level and every 5th level thereafter?)
---As a supplement to the above, Master Hunter now either makes one of those benefits permanent (no longer need to use Animal Focus for that ability) or makes Animal Focus usable at-will.
And that's really all that needs to be done, for the most part. The Hunter's main issues lie in those two abilities (his main draws) being lackluster at best.
With you. The animal companion needs to be the focus of this class as its mission statement says it's supposed to be in order to make it stand out from the many classes and archetypes that now have that ability right now. As it stands it's basically a sub par beastmaster cavalier or animal domain inquisitor with the shapeshifter ranger archetypes animal form ability.
Now what I would love to see them do is give us access to special creatures like Int 2 or less magical beasts, aberrations, or dragons that have been modded to make them more balanced like those of the other animal companions. I will say this class would be a lot more compelling if it gave me the chance at an Owlbear, Hydra, or Wyvern animal companion.
I really don't like it, it fells lame like hell. Firstable, teamwork feats are very very situationnal, and I've never liked them exept when I was playing a Cavalier or a Strategist. Moreover, Hunter lacks a good roleplay flavor, I'll prefer keep going on an inquisitor or a ranger.
So far, it's the class that I don't lik the most.
I still think that after so many years of players looking for a good option for Ranger without AC, that it is very strange to not offer one in this book. Slayer is a joke ATM, and this "focus on the companion" thing just doesn't make much sense to me. The best use of it would be to start down the mounted combat route, but a cavalier already does that.
I mean, what is the role here? Focus on the companion? It is still just an animal companion. Eidolons are way more effective. Druid is still just far and away better than this class, and so is a ranger with the boon companion feat.
One suggestion in regards to spellcasting, allow them to add a number of ranger spells to their spell list equal to their wisdom modifier as hunter spells known. It adds only one line and makes the hunter more unique as a spellcaster.
Another suggestion,
Change animal aspect to insight and have it apply to your companion at later levels.
Nice suggestions.
I really like the Hunter. I think Paizo did the right thing by making this hybrid class.
I'm a GM, and one of my PC really wanted to make a ranger who fought alongside his animal companion. To make it work, we had to look through a lot of non-core material, and it was a headache that we eventually resolved through house rules. Looking at the Hunter, this is exactly what I wanted.
To compare - The ranger's animal companion is too weak. The druid is too 'magical' to fit the flavor of what my PC wanted to make. The eidolon is weird, and its pet summoner isn't really a combat partner. Thus, the Hunter actually lets a player enjoy an entirely new character theme.
I agree with a lot of posters here that the class as a whole seems rather weak. That said, I don't really mind it, because I'm of the opinion that power-inflation is already favoring PCs over monsters to the point that CR doesn't make sense. I do think the hunter deserves full BAB though, or else the hunter will be outstripped by his companion.
You shouldn't need to houserule anything.
Play a ranger,
Take beastmaster archtype to get access to all animal companion choices
take the boon companion feat so your effective druid level is +4 up to your character level. (Animal Archive, published by Paizo)
Done, full AC.
So, you get a ranger with a full animal companion in two easy steps. And if you want animal focus stuff, you can also take the Shapeshifter archtype, which operates very similarly.
There you go. You have a hunter with better BAB, HD, Same AC, same animal shape flavor, plus favored enemies, better skills, and combat style.
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Perhaps the animal companion should benefit from the Woodland Stride ability the same way the Hunter does. It would kind of suck if you sneak up on your enemy only to find your bear is stuck in the briars, leaving you to go one-on-one. :)
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I think it's kind of weird that you would limit a simple Feat because it's non-Core but praise an entire very much non-Core class for doing the same thing but worse. =/
I do really like the core idea of the hunter, someone who fights not just alongside his animal companion, but in sync with it. I'm looking forward to the new teamwork feats, And I hope they'll be included in future iterations of the playtest.
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So what does this class do that I can't get from Ranger?
Weapon and Armor: Limited list compared to Ranger.
Animal Focus: This is the same thing as shifters blessing from Wildshape archtype of Ranger.
Animal Companion: Ranger + Boon Companion
Track: Ranger gets this at 1st level.
Wild Empathy: Ranger gets this at 1st level.
Hunter Tactics: None to replace but I see very few teamwork feats I would want to use with my animal companion anyway.
Teamwork Feat: See above. To make this class viable at least at the low levels maybe follow the way bonus feats work allowing access to some without the prereqs at lower levels like Target of Opportunity and improved feint partner at 3rd.
Doing this actually shows the weakness of teamwork feats as if we were to do the same thing again for 6th I just dont even see any other feats that I would even consider that I would need early access for. They all are just too weak.
Woodland Stride: Ranger gets this at 7th. So you are getting this 2 levels early...
Swift Tracker: Same as Ranger.
Druid Spell List: Only item on this hybrid taken from druid and it just doesnt fit on the concept. The druid list is more support. The ranger list is more designed for a hunter.
So looking at that analysis this really is just a poor man's version of the wildshape archtype of the Ranger with a druid spell list.
Lets look at this another way. To make a hybrid of druid and ranger what does the Druid have to contribute that the ranger doesn't already have? Spell list and Wildshape.
So if they really want to say this is a hybrid of druid one of those two things needs to stay. So to fix this and make it a true hunter class:
A. Either give it Ranger spell list or none at all.
B. Follow this up by giving it Wildshape. Its the only other thing the Druid has to contribute.
C. Give it an ability to hunt!
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I think it's better to go with the question of "If the Druid didn't exist would this be an acceptable class in comparison to other classes" as it stands I think so.
In a world without a druid class, this would have a lot more appeal since suddenly it has a unique spell list, but we don't live in that world, and there's an obvious direct comparison. Everything this does a druid does better, except the teamwork thing, which does not sell me.
I don't particularly see any ranger DNA at all in here (besides "free feats" I guess).
Now that I stop and think about it, I also don't really see the conceptual need for a class, based on the name. Outdoorsy types who stalk quarry and use camouflage and know the terrain and use bows already exist, rangers.
If you're willing to consider a radical departure, I say throw the spells out entirely (or almost entirely) focus on the other half of a druid, and double down with the pet teamwork angle. Turn this into some weird sort of skinwalker class- You have a severely restricted version of wild shape, either like the _____ shaman prestige classes (pick a general type of animal), or the specific species of your animal companion, or just animals-only depending how generous you're feeling. The tradeoff is, the duration is longer, if not unlimited. While in animal form, you can communicate perfectly with your companion, look just like it (allows for some misdirection) and share teamwork feats, maybe also the companion's feats, spice it up.
Flesh that out with maybe full BAB, maybe some light spellcasting, maybe some other animal-form-only perks like favored terrain and you're in business. Unique flavor, unique-ish abilities derived from 2 classes. Scores you points with the lycanthrope/furry crowd. Gives you a nice city-shunning raised by wolves angle to play, which isn't a very well supported character concept otherwise.
Alternate way to go- Have 2 animal companions. Pain having someone take 3 turns though.
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A reduced, or even removed, spell list that fits the theme better in exchange for some other benefits - perhaps some more, even permanent at an earlier point animal aspects - would be what would make this fit the niche I wanted it to.We would really like to avoid creating a new spell list for any of these classes, which is why none of them have unique spell lists (they all use the spell list of another class). Every time we create a new class spell list, we have to (1) spend a lot of lines in the book re-listing all of the existing spells that should be on that list, and (2) add to the amount of text in a spell stat block to call out which classes the spell belongs to.
It is a lesser of two evils issue, I get that. But I do think in the end you are going to run into more problems by not narrowing for this class in particular.
I would prefer we discuss a way to address spell bookkeeping rather than decline to have unique spell-lists.
I'm not sure why we need each spell to list all of the various classes that can use it in the spell, beyond divine or arcane. In the age of the online PRD, it isn't needed IMHO relative to the page space it eats.
And at this point, the core is out of date and utility for that purpose.
I personally would much rather have narrow spell lists catered to the classes and then stop doing call outs in the spell itself.
Will this cause issues with new spells not being on the lists? Yes. Do I think there are ways this can be addressed? Yes.
I would rather than then unintended synergies, strange spell options and and nerf bad distribution post publication.
But I get what you are saying and understand the concern.
I agree with most of the complaints, but instead of reiterating I had some ideas to add something interesting without changing the whole class around.
First, give the animal companion favored enemy progression . I think it is a way to keep the companion as the focus while making the class stand out from a druid.
Second, make the aspects a different kind of bonus so they aren't made irrelevant by spells/magic items , increase the duration to something along wild shape lines, as well as make the aspect take effect on the companion and the hunter.
If writing a new spell list takes up too much space of whatever sort, what about letting the Hunter pick from both the Druid and Ranger lists? With a few more archery buff spells it might be able to be an adequate archer. I don't think there's anything horribly unbalancing there.
The animal focus abilities might have out of combat uses with a longer duration, like 10 minutes/level. At a fixed 1 minute with few uses/day they're combat boosts only; in many cases not great ones.
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I agree with most of the complaints, but instead of reiterating I had some ideas to add something interesting without changing the whole class around.
First, give the animal companion favored enemy progression . I think it is a way to keep the companion as the focus while making the class stand out from a druid.
Second, make the aspects a different kind of bonus so they aren't made irrelevant by spells/magic items , increase the duration to something along wild shape lines, as well as make the aspect take effect on the companion and the hunter.
Actually the favored enemy thing is something that a rangers animal companions already get as part of their class.
As for the rest I'm with you on the aspects but feel like they need WAY more options that are more interesting and viable as you move along then what we have right now.
As it stands I would love to see them mess with the animal companion thing more and maybe even give them more animal companion options like 1 or 2 Int magical beasts, aberrations, and dragons.
Hmmm... one would think that a Hunter would get a Favored Terrain and/or a Favored Enemy. Also, I feel like the Animal Focus doesn't really compensate the loss of 7th, 8th and 9th level spells. They might want to just take the druid and replace some of its features without touching the spell list.
Since they lost wildshape, I don't see why they don't get the ranger's weapon proficiencies. I can see why they don't get heavy armor proficiency, but why are they prohibited from it? If a hunter wants to burn a feat for a mild AC increase at the cost of reduced movement, I say, let that be its own punishment. All they gain from a druid's divine abilities is its spell list; the flavor rationale doesn't seem to exist why they are unable to take certain combat options. Combat wise, they should be half-ranger. Rangers don't have restrictions.
I like the idea of favored terrains, but honestly, with a good skill list and, oh, spells, it's not strictly necessary.
Animal focus: I definitely favor changing to a system where you pick two of them, and gain more later, for flavor reasons. However, the advantages they grant should scale better. Each one should grant a special quality, attack, or other trait at higher levels, in addition to the gradually increasing bonuses. Also, I had the idea that each one might have a situational bonus related to the animal it embodies; like tiger might double the bonuses and penalties of a charge attack, making it a nice fit with an AC's pounce. Wolf could grant Greater or Improved Trip or something. Snake could raise the DC of poisons. You could, for instance, have a bear companion and use the Tiger animal focus, but if you used the big cat AC with the tiger animal focus, you'd have a strong pounce attack.
I share a lot of the same concerns voiced here.
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I like this class. The problem is mechanically you can probably pull of very much of what this class does with the inquisitor who takes the animal domain and has his animal spend feats on teamwork feats. This is probably the most optimized route to build an inquisitor anyway so we have some major redundancy here especially as the class lay out is pretty much modeled after the inquisitor.
While the animal focus is a nifty ability I'm afraid the fact that it grants enhancement bonuses and stat boosting items are such a must have that this ability might have to be reworded. However I really love the flexibility of this ability. Also giving your tiger a massive strength bonus is pretty kick ass.