If you're referring to the anime, Tels, then I agree. I didn't enjoy the animated adaptation. Fortunately a friend convinced me to read the manga/comic instead - and that is vastly better than the animated version. I'd highly recommend it. The comic is still running and the story is roughly 5 times further than what the anime showed.I may not like it, but I somewhat have to agree, especially when Kenichi switched styles against Ryuto.This is how I'm currently envisioning the Brawler...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kenichi:_The_Mightiest_Disciple
Actually, I was referring to the fact I don't like that Brawler is a better fit for Kenichi than Monk. I'm not a fan of the Brawler class, and I, not so secretly, would like to see the class go un-published. That doesn't mean I won't help with it's development, especially if I can get the Devs to remove as many 'Monk toys' as possible.
I was introduced via the anime version and quite enjoyed it. I've since read the Manga and am staying up-to-date with the releases (Kousaka School Final Technique > weapon users), but I still enjoy the anime and found it to closely mirror the whole Ragnarok story arch. I would love to see a full anime adaption of the series.
Also, every time I watch the series, I feel compelled to roll up a new Monk. I would love to see Monk-esque Bard Archetype so I could play Siegfreid.
… Monk Bard? 0_o
Okay, now I'm picturing a Monk kicking people's faces in while playing a flute. … which works with the mechanics. Pick up the Savant trait to offset the low Charisma. Dangit, now I want to play that! But I need to playtest stuff still. Anyways, thanks! Probably nothing like what you were thinking of. XD
… Monk Bard? 0_o
Okay, now I'm picturing a Monk kicking people's faces in while playing a flute. … which works with the mechanics. Pick up the Savant trait to offset the low Charisma. Dangit, now I want to play that! But I need to playtest stuff still. Anyways, thanks! Probably nothing like what you were thinking of. XD
Siegreid is a martial artist that 'hears the rhythm' of fights. He also finds inspiration for his music through the screams of pain and whimpers of fear of his victims. He uses a 'round about' attack to deflect the energy of an opponents attacks, and re-directs it back into the enemy.
Basically, he's using like a combination of Snake Style and Crane Style to deflect attacks and make AoO against an enemy, while using Bardic Performance.
A theoretical 'BardMonk' would have a scaling unarmed strike, and instead of Inspire Courage adding to attack/damage, it would add to AC or something like that.
Siegfreid vs Niijima not the best example, but it kind of shows what he does. Watch the anime for the Kenichi vs Siegfreid fight as a better example.
And if you're a brawler who wants to defend with a shield, the –1 nonproficiency penalty doesn't hurt you much, and you can soon afford spending 150 gp on a masterwork shield.
Is Shield Proficiency two feats? One for fighting and one for defense? If the Brawler "gets" proficiency with close weapons, would they not get shield proficiency? It would just not be listed in the armor section where we normally see it.
Without Shield Proficiency, you cannot progress down the shield fighting chain (improved shield bash, shield slam, etc), already a steep feat chain.
I think your right, the Shield Brawler should be an Archetype. But I also think giving a brawler the ability to fight with it, but not the ability to defend with it is strange.
I understand if you leave it alone. I can always rule 0 it at my table.
… Monk Bard? 0_o
Okay, now I'm picturing a Monk kicking people's faces in while playing a flute. … which works with the mechanics. Pick up the Savant trait to offset the low Charisma. Dangit, now I want to play that! But I need to playtest stuff still. Anyways, thanks! Probably nothing like what you were thinking of. XD
A Bard/Monk hybrid is not nearly as far-fetched as it may seem. There are all sorts of stories about martial arts directly related to dancing, both in fantasy and reality.
I'd like to see a class like that.
This class looks like sooo much fun! It would make me want to yell "Saxton Haaaale!" while running into a fight. :D
If I had to suggest anything for it at all, it would be to add DR X/-, probably incrementing at all the maneuver training levels. The Brawler feels like it should be really tough, and the maneuver training is the only class ability that feels a little lacking.
"Can't step on the same piece of water twice?"
"Tie two birds together, and though they have four wings, they can not fly."
"Not the same Kord."
~Circle of Iron
No thoughts on my ideas?
Not big on the DR solution, works, but not what I am looking for. Also not a big fan of penetrating past x/--.
The scarring sounds interesting, but more of something that I would want as a class option, and not something I would want on every Brawler.
I like that your thinking is taking us places that we can add on to the Brawler. Having the ability to add abilities to a class helps it live past release.
This class looks like sooo much fun! It would make me want to yell "Saxton Haaaale!" while running into a fight. :D
If I had to suggest anything for it at all, it would be to add DR X/-, probably incrementing at all the maneuver training levels. The Brawler feels like it should be really tough, and the maneuver training is the only class ability that feels a little lacking.
Saxton Hale is definitely just a Barbarian with IUS. And the Raging Leaper Rage Power.
"BRAVE JUMP!"
If you're referring to the anime, Tels, then I agree. I didn't enjoy the animated adaptation. Fortunately a friend convinced me to read the manga/comic instead - and that is vastly better than the animated version. I'd highly recommend it. The comic is still running and the story is roughly 5 times further than what the anime showed.I may not like it, but I somewhat have to agree, especially when Kenichi switched styles against Ryuto.This is how I'm currently envisioning the Brawler...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kenichi:_The_Mightiest_Disciple
Heh, I went and watched the anime fight and I loved every hammy minute of it.
What if Brawler Strike worked like:
At 5th level you can avoid up to DR 5/Type or --.
At 10th level you can avoid up to DR 10/Type or --.
At 15th level you can avoid up to DR 15/Type or --.
This differentiates it from the Monk. You can call it an EX. And its simple.
You aren't avoiding part of a creature's DR. If you can avoid 5, and the creature has 10, its full DR works.
This gets around a Barbarian's DR, but won't work as magical damage to injure an incorporeal creature. So another way to make the different than a Monk, but keep it relatively balanced.
Me like.
One you could have pixie magic powering your fists, the other is you're just freakin awesome.
But me also want tie pixie to fist. Call it Sprited Gauntlet.
… Monk Bard? 0_o
Okay, now I'm picturing a Monk kicking people's faces in while playing a flute. … which works with the mechanics. Pick up the Savant trait to offset the low Charisma. Dangit, now I want to play that! But I need to playtest stuff still. Anyways, thanks! Probably nothing like what you were thinking of. XD
Siegreid is a martial artist that 'hears the rhythm' of fights. He also finds inspiration for his music through the screams of pain and whimpers of fear of his victims. He uses a 'round about' attack to deflect the energy of an opponents attacks, and re-directs it back into the enemy.
Basically, he's using like a combination of Snake Style and Crane Style to deflect attacks and make AoO against an enemy, while using Bardic Performance.
A theoretical 'BardMonk' would have a scaling unarmed strike, and instead of Inspire Courage adding to attack/damage, it would add to AC or something like that.
Siegfreid vs Niijima not the best example, but it kind of shows what he does. Watch the anime for the Kenichi vs Siegfreid fight as a better example.
Siegfried is an interesting point: isn't he really just a monk with a roleplayed fascination of music? He'd put skill ranks into perform (dance); but otherwise is a MoMS with Snake and Crane style (and quite possibly the Toughness feat and high constitution).
Kenichi himself, especially in the part of the story that the anime tells, to me is more like a monk (master of many styles) in training.
If we're talking brawlers then I think several characters from Tenjo Tenge come to mind. Especially Bob and my favorite character "Old Man" Bunshichi. (Again I recommend the manga, though the story arc the anime shows has its highlights.)
(Edit: fixed Bunshichi's link)
What if:
Armor & Weapon Proficiencies = Zero. None. Zilch. Nada. (save em for an archetype).
They get an ability called:
Brawler's Scarring (EX): Due to the constant use of his hands, arms, legs, and forehead to violently pummel his enemies, the brawler gains scar tissue across its body. The scar tissue forms in such a way, that they can choose to do slashing or piercing damage instead of bludgeoning damage. Additionally they gain natural armor of 2.
At 3rd level, this scar tissue becomes hardened and can be enchanted like a weapon. At 7th level the scar tissue can also be enchanted like armor. The cost is he same to enchant a weapon or armor, but the brawler must be available for 8 hours a day for the enchanter to work their magic.
At 5th level, the scar tissue becomes so tough that they can avoid magical DR. Brawler's fists, however, are not considered magical weapons unless enchanted as above. At 9th level the brawler can avoid cold iron or silver DR, alignment based DR at 12th level, and adamantine DR at 17th level.
All for it. I already had a rant into a similar direction earlier, but you just get replies if you are one of the cool kids ;-)
I especially like the fluff and the ability to get more armor. For balancing options I think it might be necessary to increase the price over the normal weapon cost considering that you otherwise invalidate two weapon fighting when it comes to money needed to spend.I also think that the unarmed strike issue is more pressing than the source of damage reduction but that might once again me...
On the topic, The Breaker (a Korean manhwa) has some great brawlers, and some great monks.
What if:
Armor & Weapon Proficiencies = Zero. None. Zilch. Nada. (save em for an archetype).
They get an ability called:
Brawler's Scarring (EX): Due to the constant use of his hands, arms, legs, and forehead to violently pummel his enemies, the brawler gains scar tissue across its body. The scar tissue forms in such a way, that they can choose to do slashing or piercing damage instead of bludgeoning damage. Additionally they gain natural armor of 2.
At 3rd level, this scar tissue becomes hardened and can be enchanted like a weapon. At 7th level the scar tissue can also be enchanted like armor. The cost is he same to enchant a weapon or armor, but the brawler must be available for 8 hours a day for the enchanter to work their magic.
At 5th level, the scar tissue becomes so tough that they can avoid magical DR. Brawler's fists, however, are not considered magical weapons unless enchanted as above. At 9th level the brawler can avoid cold iron or silver DR, alignment based DR at 12th level, and adamantine DR at 17th level.
+1
I love the idea behind this one.
Okay. Just read the last couple pages (or wherever it was that SKR responded to my last post, as I picked up from there).
From what I'm reading, I think the brawler is in really good shape! I mean, if all we have left to nitpick about is whether or not the brawler should get a shield bonus, we've clearly hashed through all the big stuff. I can't wait to see what kind of archetypes will be available in the book. :) I'm getting really excited about the ultimate product!
Archetypes that I'd like to see:
- Purely Bare-Handed Brawler: Fuse Styles! :D
- Dervish Brawler: I dunno this Siegfried guy, but the idea of a Brawler with a musical fighting style who dances and hits things is pretty awesome. Mixing the 'buff myself' aspect of the Dawnflower Dervish Bard with the Brawler could be really potent.
- Street Fighter: Something Street Fighter-esque. Taking the idea of Chun-Li or E Honda doing a flurry with one limb and building off of that.
- Thai Kickboxing: Knees and brutality!
Archetypes that are in high demand:
- Bar Room Brawler: The guy who doesn't mind hitting you over the head with a beer bottle. Improvised weapons and throw anything.
- Shield Brawler: Obviously a lot of feeling about this one. Captain America is a must.
- Heavily Armored Brawler: Because people are already developping builds to get the brawler in full plate.
@Mystically Inclined:
You forgot the Drunken Brawler. ;)
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Actually I just didn't have a good suggestion for it. The territory is covered by the Drunken Monk. I don't see a way to give it a unique mechanical advantage that would fit. Drunken Brawler strikes me as more of a role play personality than an archetype.
But if anyone has some good suggestions for it, then yeah we need that one too. :)
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Observation: Some have wondered how the Monk's Robe and the Brawler's AC/Unarmed Damage interact.
I note that the Brawler's progression is slightly slower, so I don't see that item being able to directly affect those progressions as they are not truly identical features.
However, given that the abilities are still extremely similar and have the same mechanics, I would see it as reasonable to allow.
Observation: Some have wondered how the Monk's Robe and the Brawler's AC/Unarmed Damage interact.
I note that the Brawler's progression is slightly slower, so I don't see that item being able to directly affect those progressions as they are not truly identical features.However, given that the abilities are still extremely similar and have the same mechanics, I would see it as reasonable to allow.
Actually that is a typo, Jason corrected it in post-1 of this thread. The unarmed progression is the same for monk and brawler.
This is a bit of a side question but, by RAW, do gauntlets enchanted as weapon allow you to get weapon qualities on your unarmed strikes? 'cuz
This metal glove lets you deal lethal damage rather than nonlethal damage with unarmed strikes. A strike with a gauntlet is otherwise considered an unarmed attack. The cost and weight given are for a single gauntlet. Medium and heavy armors (except breastplate) come with gauntlets. Your opponent cannot use a disarm action to disarm you of gauntlets.
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Gauntlet attacks are considered unarmed attacks, but not unarmed strikes. Just like touch attacks are considered unarmed attacks, but again, not unarmed strikes.
“Armed” Unarmed Attacks: Sometimes a character's or creature's unarmed attack counts as an armed attack. A monk, a character with the Improved Unarmed Strike feat, a spellcaster delivering a touch attack spell, and a creature with natural physical weapons all count as being armed (see natural attacks).
Note that being armed counts for both offense and defense (the character can make attacks of opportunity).
This is the closest citation I can find, and it doesn't mention unarmed weapons, but I think it would apply to those as well as touch attack spells.
This is a bit of a side question but, by RAW, do gauntlets enchanted as weapon allow you to get weapon qualities on your unarmed strikes? 'cuz
This metal glove lets you deal lethal damage rather than nonlethal damage with unarmed strikes. A strike with a gauntlet is otherwise considered an unarmed attack. The cost and weight given are for a single gauntlet. Medium and heavy armors (except breastplate) come with gauntlets. Your opponent cannot use a disarm action to disarm you of gauntlets.
No, because you would be using the gauntlet as the weapon, instead of the unarmed strike. So you would deal 1d3+x+y ability on your attacks. No different than wearing a pair of enchanted brass knuckles.
No, because you would be using the gauntlet as the weapon, instead of the unarmed strike. So you would deal 1d3+x+y ability on your attacks. No different than wearing a pair of enchanted brass knuckles.This is a bit of a side question but, by RAW, do gauntlets enchanted as weapon allow you to get weapon qualities on your unarmed strikes? 'cuz
This metal glove lets you deal lethal damage rather than nonlethal damage with unarmed strikes. A strike with a gauntlet is otherwise considered an unarmed attack. The cost and weight given are for a single gauntlet. Medium and heavy armors (except breastplate) come with gauntlets. Your opponent cannot use a disarm action to disarm you of gauntlets.
Ahhhh Brass knuckles~
They remind me of the brief period before errata when monk was a mechanically decent class.
No, because you would be using the gauntlet as the weapon, instead of the unarmed strike. So you would deal 1d3+x+y ability on your attacks. No different than wearing a pair of enchanted brass knuckles.This is a bit of a side question but, by RAW, do gauntlets enchanted as weapon allow you to get weapon qualities on your unarmed strikes? 'cuz
This metal glove lets you deal lethal damage rather than nonlethal damage with unarmed strikes. A strike with a gauntlet is otherwise considered an unarmed attack. The cost and weight given are for a single gauntlet. Medium and heavy armors (except breastplate) come with gauntlets. Your opponent cannot use a disarm action to disarm you of gauntlets.Ahhhh Brass knuckles~
They remind me of the brief period before errata when monk was a mechanically decent class.
I didn't get a chance to play with that version of the knuckles, but I did have some characters designed around it.
I didn't get a chance to play with that version of the knuckles, but I did have some characters designed around it.No, because you would be using the gauntlet as the weapon, instead of the unarmed strike. So you would deal 1d3+x+y ability on your attacks. No different than wearing a pair of enchanted brass knuckles.This is a bit of a side question but, by RAW, do gauntlets enchanted as weapon allow you to get weapon qualities on your unarmed strikes? 'cuz
This metal glove lets you deal lethal damage rather than nonlethal damage with unarmed strikes. A strike with a gauntlet is otherwise considered an unarmed attack. The cost and weight given are for a single gauntlet. Medium and heavy armors (except breastplate) come with gauntlets. Your opponent cannot use a disarm action to disarm you of gauntlets.Ahhhh Brass knuckles~
They remind me of the brief period before errata when monk was a mechanically decent class.
For monk fans at the time, it seemed like a golden age that would never end.
How foolish we were in those halcyon days; how hopeful; how arrogant.
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I didn't get a chance to play with that version of the knuckles, but I did have some characters designed around it.No, because you would be using the gauntlet as the weapon, instead of the unarmed strike. So you would deal 1d3+x+y ability on your attacks. No different than wearing a pair of enchanted brass knuckles.This is a bit of a side question but, by RAW, do gauntlets enchanted as weapon allow you to get weapon qualities on your unarmed strikes? 'cuz
This metal glove lets you deal lethal damage rather than nonlethal damage with unarmed strikes. A strike with a gauntlet is otherwise considered an unarmed attack. The cost and weight given are for a single gauntlet. Medium and heavy armors (except breastplate) come with gauntlets. Your opponent cannot use a disarm action to disarm you of gauntlets.Ahhhh Brass knuckles~
They remind me of the brief period before errata when monk was a mechanically decent class.
For monk fans at the time, it seemed like a golden age that would never end.
How foolish we were in those halcyon days; how hopeful; how arrogant.
I blame Cosmo.
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Just had an
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The brawler is different from a monk because the monk is all etherealness and tongue of the sun and moon and master of many styles and stuff. Brawler is I PUNCH YOU. The difference is not that monks are mystical and the brawler is some tough lunk from the pub. Here's the thing: normal people don't punch dragons. Normal people don't even punch skeleton warriors or, if they can help it, bears. The idea that the brawler is going to non-magically punch people and remain a viable adventurer into high levels is incredibly absurd. There's already something in the game for just being able to punch things like a maniac: it's called Improved Unarmed Strike. With that one feat, you can win all bar fights, all the time, against opponents without this expertise, you can use a rogue's sneak attack to flank bears to death by ripping off their rocky mountain oysters, and you can sunder (wooden) weapons to pieces with your bare hands. That's pretty badass.
But a tenth level dude is not going to go around punching ogres and bears and death knights with his non-magical knuckles because THAT'S INSANE. You couldn't do that with all whiskey in the world, I'm saying, and I'm Irish. Non-magical punch guy is a stupid idea for a character class.
The Brawler is a character from Street Fighter, only with more magical fantasy belts and buckles on his clothes. Deal with it.
He should be able to also use a cestus or silver brass knuckles competently, but only because that would be frickin' awesome. Punching dragons with wolverine blades, as we all know, is scientifically proven to be awesome.
RJGrady, I think for that matter, using your logic: non-magical guy with a sword going up against a dragon is pretty suicidal. So all classes without magic should stay home? Leave it to the wizards? I dont want to play that game.
And, for me, that's the crux of it: it's a game. A game of imagination to be sure, but a game nonetheless. And all choices should be viable. If there's an encounter where anyone at the table says, "well I guess I have to sit this one out." Then that means someone's fun just got minimized.
Additionally, I think saying "You can just refluff this ability" doesn't sit right with me either. If we can refluff any of the abilities, 1) why have fluff at all? And 2) why not just refluff the monk to remove the mysticism instead of making a new class. The answer, I think, is that the mechanics and fluff work together to create invaluable aids to our imagination and story-telling.
What I'm hearing is a large number of people saying that they want the ability to bypass DR in order to remain viable, but the way Brawler Strike is currently written breaks their suspension of disbelief. For me, stepped bypassing of DR fits more than on/off toggle of 'now your fists count as magic. Now they count as silver.' Balance-wise: that may not be the best option. But rather than throwing up our hands and saying, "deal with it." Let's keep making suggestions, trying out different options, and keep working the problem.
Perhaps gaining access to Penetrating Strike earlier than the prereqs (12th level Fighter)? Perhaps a shatter defenses ability that lowers DR after a successful attack? Perhaps a higher manifestation of Martial Maneuvers that allows you to adjust your style to bypass defenses? I think all of these would have more appropriate fluff than Brawler Strike currently. And there's undoubtedly loads more the brilliant developers and contributers to this forum can come up. I just really hope we don't give up and leave it as is, or leave the class without an option.
Why don't they just give the Brawler the Exploit Weakness ability from the Martial Artist Monk? Seems to me it would be a perfect fit.
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Finally got a chance this evening to sit down with the playtest document and two things struck me immediately upon reading the brawler entry:
- The inclusion of monk weapons really isn't in line with the flavour of the classWe're addressing that (see the sticky post at the top of this thread).
- something along the lines of Improvised Weapon Mastery would be an excellent fit as a class abilityYou can use martial maneuvers to get that, though.
Thanks to everyone for their comments, character builds, and playtest feedback!
Ah, the issue here was entirely mine. I was looking at this class through the very narrow aperture of a barroom brawler type than the wider breadth of all fisticuffs-fighters. Mostly, I think, because it played to a PC concept I have wanted to play. And yes, I do get dizzy sometimes with the whole world revolving around me.
Finally getting to do a playtest this evening. Hopefully will have some decent feedback afterwards.
RJGrady, I think for that matter, using your logic: non-magical guy with a sword going up against a dragon is pretty suicidal. So all classes without magic should stay home? Leave it to the wizards? I dont want to play that game.
Even with the ability to cast lightning bolts, willingly attacking dragons is "suicidal." So sure, using a magic sword, kind of crazy. But not using a sword, and actually punching the dragon? Literally, suicidal. "Instead of something that might conceivably work, I'll punch this dragon with my bare, non-magical hands."
Additionally, I think saying "You can just refluff this ability" doesn't sit right with me either. If we can refluff any of the abilities, 1) why have fluff at all? And 2) why not just refluff the monk to remove the mysticism instead of making a new class. The answer, I think, is that the mechanics and fluff work together to create invaluable aids to our imagination and story-telling.
I'm not saying you should re-fluff. I'm saying you shouldn't. If your concept is a non-magical dragon puncher, your concept is as unworkable as the character who defeats dragons by making high quality wagon wheels. Once you get beyond punching guards and maybe, maybe, an ogre, you need either a weapon, magic, or some kind of supernatural ki. Otherwise what you are doing doesn't make sense. Trying to be a 12th level Mike Tyson and slaying liches borders on Dada-ist roleplaying.
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Based off SKR's post, he really doesn't care about the objection and is basically telling us, "You don't like? Well, tough."C'mon folks, refluffing is not difficult.Yeah, but I'd rather not have to. That is the point of these playtests, after all, to give feedback on the proposed features.
Better try and get it changed now and be slightly disappointed when it doesn't than not bother at the time and be unsatisfied when it comes out, knowing there was a slim possibility of my vote being counted. =)
Not really. Based on SKReyn's post what he's really saying is "we get that some people object to it, but from a design standpoint that's not a good enough reason to change it".
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Why don't they just give the Brawler the Exploit Weakness ability from the Martial Artist Monk? Seems to me it would be a perfect fit.
SKR already said they don't want to give them a mechanic that slows down combat. Whatever ability the brawler gets, it probably wont be one that involves an additional roll each round.
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If your concept is a non-magical dragon puncher, your concept is as unworkable as the character who defeats dragons by making high quality wagon wheels.I disagree. Now, without using any magic is extremely difficult, but magic becomes a necessity at high levels. HOWEVER a class that is supposed to have no magic or mysticism having magical fists inherently through his non-mystic ways is hard to justify. Yes, you can re-skin it as you like, but you can do that with a monk and not bother with a brawler. The brawler fighter archetype can do some nice damage with unarmed strikes without having magical abilities.
Why don't they just give the Brawler the Exploit Weakness ability from the Martial Artist Monk? Seems to me it would be a perfect fit.SKR already said they don't want to give them a mechanic that slows down combat. Whatever ability the brawler gets, it probably wont be one that involves an additional roll each round.
Unfortunately, because exploit weakness is a perfect fit.
Forgive my ignorance, I haven’t read thru all 893 posts, but I wonder does this class suck if it is forced to use a range weapon?
As far as I can tell it can’t even use a shortbow and it gets no bonus to attack or damage if using a ranged weapon.
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Forgive my ignorance, I haven’t read thru all 893 posts, but I wonder does this class suck if it is forced to use a range weapon?
As far as I can tell it can’t even use a shortbow and it gets no bonus to attack or damage if using a ranged weapon.
Define sucks. They're as good as any high bab class when using a crossbow, but no composite weapons so no bonus to damage. Although I'd think for a guy built entirely around punching people, ranged weapons are something of a last resort. Just saying.
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They should at least get the option to be good at chucking chairs / mugs of ale.Define sucks. They're as good as any high bab class when using a crossbow, but no composite weapons so no bonus to damage. Although I'd think for a guy built entirely around punching people, ranged weapons are something of a last resort. Just saying.Forgive my ignorance, I haven’t read thru all 893 posts, but I wonder does this class suck if it is forced to use a range weapon?
As far as I can tell it can’t even use a shortbow and it gets no bonus to attack or damage if using a ranged weapon.
Which is an option they have via uber-jillion feats and the ability to gain them on the fly.
Which is an option they have via uber-jillion feats and the ability to gain them on the fly.They should at least get the option to be good at chucking chairs / mugs of ale.Define sucks. They're as good as any high bab class when using a crossbow, but no composite weapons so no bonus to damage. Although I'd think for a guy built entirely around punching people, ranged weapons are something of a last resort. Just saying.Forgive my ignorance, I haven’t read thru all 893 posts, but I wonder does this class suck if it is forced to use a range weapon?
As far as I can tell it can’t even use a shortbow and it gets no bonus to attack or damage if using a ranged weapon.
Especially since they can literally pick up a bow, figure out how to shoot as well as anybody, then fire the bow.
If your concept is a non-magical dragon puncher, your concept is as unworkable as the character who defeats dragons by making high quality wagon wheels.I disagree. Now, without using any magic is extremely difficult, but magic becomes a necessity at high levels. HOWEVER a class that is supposed to have no magic or mysticism having magical fists inherently through his non-mystic ways is hard to justify.
I don't think they are a class that is supposed to have no magic or mysticism, and I think the very idea of idea of such a class is, as I have already stated, thoroughly insane. Unless you want to tie them into using a magic cestus at high levels, they need magical fists or something that might as well be magical fists. What's hard to justify is a bare-knuckled brawler punching fire elementals.