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Has it been suggested that rather than getting dr bypass, the brawler could get weapon training (as the fighter class feature) at each level their bypass would improve? The training could be with a single close combat or monk weapon, and include that the brawler uses their unarmed dice (if better) when using a weapon they have training with.
Sorry if this has been suggested already, just throwing it out there is case it hasn't.
About the brawler capstone ability...
While I'm surprised that people aren't liking awesome blow as the brawler capstone (as normally you can only select this if you're Large, and have a very high Str and two specific feats), we're looking at replacing it with something else. Any suggestions for this? Compare to the fighter and monk capstones for the level of power we're talking about.
I'm as surprised too, I looked at that, and instantly fell in love with the flavor even if I was a little doubtful about the power behind it.
That said, maybe an ability to inflict statuses as was mentioned earlier would be nice, or the ability to perform one of a few different statuses (So no one type of immunity ruins it) without that pesky save getting in the way. Ogre? Sicken it. Vampire? Blind it. Tarrasque? SUPLEX IT.
EDIT: Right as I posted, another idea came to me. Why not some kind of strike-through? Similar to a certain gunslinger deed, what if the brawler was always able to inflict a portion of his damage, even if the attack would normally be blocked by AC?
About the brawler capstone ability...
While I'm surprised that people aren't liking awesome blow as the brawler capstone (as normally you can only select this if you're Large, and have a very high Str and two specific feats), we're looking at replacing it with something else. Any suggestions for this? Compare to the fighter and monk capstones for the level of power we're talking about.
I'm as surprised too, I looked at that, and instantly fell in love with the flavor even if I was a little doubtful about the power behind it.
That said, maybe an ability to inflict statuses as was mentioned earlier would be nice, or the ability to perform one of a few different statuses (So no one type of immunity ruins it) without that pesky save getting in the way. Ogre? Sicken it. Vampire? Blind it. Tarrasque? SUPLEX IT.
EDIT: Right as I posted, another idea came to me. Why not some kind of strike-through? Similar to a certain gunslinger deed, what if the brawler was always able to inflict a portion of his damage, even if the attack would normally be blocked by AC?
I keep thinking that the (old) capstone should replace Knockout instead; and something completely different go onto the capstone.
About the brawler capstone ability...
While I'm surprised that people aren't liking awesome blow as the brawler capstone (as normally you can only select this if you're Large, and have a very high Str and two specific feats), we're looking at replacing it with something else. Any suggestions for this? Compare to the fighter and monk capstones for the level of power we're talking about.
Why not combine the two concepts (defense monk capstone & fighter offensive capstone) in a way? It's hard to imagine a much better brawler from recent fiction than Batman in the Arkham games. Using the counter option there is key to taking down enemies without taking a hit. Incorporating that kind of mechanic would be thematically appropriate AND cool as hell.
Perfect Strike (Ex): at level 20, the brawler achieves a level of mastery in unarmed combat that allows him to spot and exploit weakness in an enemy's attacks to amazing effect. Once per round, the brawler can deflect a melee attack made against him and follow it with a perfect strike against the attacker. Perfect strikes allows the brawler to make an unarmed attack at his highest BAB against the attacker, even if they are out of reach. If the strike lands, he doubles the base and strength modifier damage of that unarmed strike and doubles the critical range. Following this attack, the brawler may take a free 5-foot step and follow-up by either delivering one combat maneuver against his attacker with a +5 to the attempt or gain a +5 dodge bonus against the next melee attack against him in that round. Perfect strike counts as an attack of opportunity for purposes of feats and abilities the brawler possesses. This ability is a free action that recharges at the end of the brawlers turn.
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I like the name "pummel" for the brawler's version of flurry.
"Beat down" could be it's own special ability like a bonus of non-lethal damage or something along that line.
I'm excited about the Brawler--I've been wanting to play a character like this for a long time, but I don't really like the flavor of the monk (no disrespect to monk-lovers). Because of that, I have to agree with the points made here about moving away from the monk weapons/ brawler strike "magic punch".
My suggestions (again, agreeing with some others here) are:
1) Change proficiencies to "close" weapon group.
2) Use the unarmed damage with different close weapons and perhaps at higher levels cause status effects based on weapon type (brass knuckles causes daze, cestus causes a one-turn bleed effect, etc). I also like the suggestion to rename flurry as "pummel", and I'd let the Brawler be able to pummel with close weapons as well.
3) Echoing Lorekeeper and others--Martial Maneuvers needs more uses per day. I also think that one minute duration is too short. What if it was changed from uses per day to one minute duration per level? That way if a fight is longer you don't suddenly lose your ability during the fight, but instead continue to use it for another minute. Then I'd just make it that at 6th level you can have up to two feats and 10th up to three feats with the same activation actions required as it is currently written. But the minutes per day shouldn't be affected by the number of feats. So, for example, at 6th level you get six minutes of "feat changing" total, usable in one minute increments. At any given time you can have up to two feats learned (but two feats for one minute uses one minute of your daily allotment, not two). Sorry for the wordiness.
I agree that these changes would increase the power, so to offset it I would get rid of brawler strike. It's good, but doesn't fit the theme, and as others have stated is unnecessary if people can use the penetrating strike feats.
As for capstone ideas, or other things to add if needed after removing brawler strike--I agree that the AC could be a problem at higher levels. Yes, DR could help, but that seems like more of a barbarian shtick and, in my opinion, a bit boring. What if the Brawler could use his CMD (or add his CMB to his AC or something) vs melee attacks? Would that be overpowered? I feel like the Brawler should be able to dodge/parry attacks to close with an opponent and beat on them.
I support changing Flurry to "Pummel." I hope we also get to flurry with close weapons. In fact we could really use the scaling unarmed strike damage to be scaling Close Weapon Group damage.
I support Martial Maneuvers being minute per level.
Drop Brawler Strike. We'll rely on magic close weapons to punch through DR.
Who are these people that get into fights that are longer than 10 rounds?
The average duration of combat in Pathfinder is 3-6 rounds.
A 10+ Round combat is usually two combats back-to-back.
Hrm. I thought the Brawler had only a few times he could do it daily. I withdraw my desire for minutes per level. I think the base amount should be 1+1/2 Brawler level(Minimum +1) though to help offset not being able to do anything interesting at low levels.
Who are these people that get into fights that are longer than 10 rounds?
The average duration of combat in Pathfinder is 3-6 rounds.
A 10+ Round combat is usually two combats back-to-back.
Well, I didn't say that it would happen for every fight, but if you're doing a particularly long battle, it would be nice to not have to use another action in the middle of the fight to activate the same feats again, right? Better to have the option, which minutes per day takes care of anyway.
Hrm. I thought the Brawler had only a few times he could do it daily. I withdraw my desire for minutes per level. I think the base amount should be 1+1/2 Brawler level(Minimum +1) though to help offset not being able to do anything interesting at low levels.
He currently only has it one time per day for every two levels, and each usage is limited to 1 minute duration. Also, each feat counts toward that limit, so a 16th level Brawler can get a total of 8 feats per DAY. I think that's very low, in my opinion. Haven't play tested or anything, just going off an initial read.
Your method is better at first level than my method, but other than that it's worse than simply one minute (or one usage) per level.
1st = 2 uses
2nd = 2 uses
3rd = 2 uses
4th = 3 uses
5th = 3 uses
6th = 4 uses
Etc.
Oh man, the Hero Lab playtest update is out, time to build brawlers
Is it too late to call it Roflstomp?
curb stomp
0.o
crap have curbs been invented in Golarion?
Boardwalk stomp?
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Man, cobblestone stomp does not have the same ring to it
Wait
Yes it does
Doesn't have the same...bite?
love you guys
If a Brawler cobblestomping is wrong
then I do not want to be right
I don't know if this has been addressed or not, but does a monk/bralwer levels stack for determining damage of unarmed strike? I am so considering a Monk (Master of many styles) 2/Brawler X build!
It hasn't been addressed because currently it is irrelevant. None of the hybrid classes can currently multiclass with their parent classes.
I don't know if this has been addressed or not, but does a monk/bralwer levels stack for determining damage of unarmed strike? I am so considering a Monk (Master of many styles) 2/Brawler X build!
You cannot multiclass with any of the components of a Hybrid Class. So no Monk or Fighter levels if your a Brawler.
Ahhh, thanks! I suck at reading;)
I still hold out hope for this clause to be abolished.
I still hold out hope for this clause to be abolished.
I bet you do. MoMS 2/Brawler X.
Yep. Being able to multiclass with Monk would eliminate like...90% of the issues I have with this class. =)
Do not despair, Rynjin, for I am with you in your desires and we will wait forthwith for such to be announced as the letter of the law, so mote it be, in to perpetuity
amen
such is the prayer of those who playtest and hope
Yep. Being able to multiclass with Monk would eliminate like...90% of the issues I have with this class. =)Honestly don't see what you would get out of it.
I will reiterate that my favorite ability, hands down, IN THE ENTIRE GAME, is Fuse Styles.
Style Feats, when you can mix them, capture the feel of a martial artist PERFECTLY. Parries and counters, nimble intuitive movement, rock steady hits and making opponents fear your very touch...beautiful.
And that's just Snake and Dragon Fused.
In case you're curious, Spell Sunder is in second place.
Yep. Being able to multiclass with Monk would eliminate like...90% of the issues I have with this class. =)Honestly don't see what you would get out of it.
Really? You can't think of all the kick ass Monk Archetypes you could take to get a ton of bonus feats, wisdom to ac or Still Mind?
A two level dip in MoMS gets you 2 style feats. You don't care about losing Flurry because you get it as a brawler.
What's third place Rynjin?
Yep. Being able to multiclass with Monk would eliminate like...90% of the issues I have with this class. =)Honestly don't see what you would get out of it.I will reiterate that my favorite ability, hands down, IN THE ENTIRE GAME, is Fuse Styles.
Style Feats, when you can mix them, capture the feel of a martial artist PERFECTLY. Parries and counters, nimble intuitive movement, rock steady hits and making opponents fear your very touch...beautiful.
And that's just Snake and Dragon Fused.
In case you're curious, Spell Sunder is in second place.
Ya, I think there are a lot of good combos between Monk/Brawler! I can see why they disallowed it, but I too hope they reconsider.
Fuse Styles is pretty boss, honestly. One of the most powerful players I've ever had in a game was a MOMS 4(I think)/Sorcerer (Draconic/Empyreal) 1/ Dragon Disciple 8. He solo'd a CR 13 encounter for about 10 rounds at level 7. He didn't kill the guy, but held him off while the party was screwed and they waited for the real hero to show up (stupid boss AP battle).
Wis to ac won't stack with light armor and just force you to take another high stat.
Fuse styles is cool, but wouldn't dump levels into a low bab class just to get it. There are cool monk archetypes, but nothing I'd be willing to stall class progression for.
You only lose 1 BAB by taking 2 levels of MoMS and the trade off is well worth it. Fuse Styles, and +2 to all saves isn't too shabby for 1 point of BAB and delayed progression.
You could take Snake Style as a regular feat, and then 2 levels of MoMS to gain Snake Sidewind and Snake Fang long before you would normally be able to. You could do the same thing with Crane Style and to be able to Parry (Crane Wing) and Riposte (Crane Riposte) by level 4. Take Crane Style as your level 2 bonus feat, and by 4th level (from dipping MoMS) you can finish off the Crane chain of feats.
But this only works if you could multiclass Brawler with Monk.
You could be a real jerk and use Fuse Styles for Crane Style and Snake Style and make yourself practically immortal when it comes to melee. A Lore Warden 5/MoMS 2/Duelist X is a pretty potent combo, and makes a great Fencer-style class.
Really? You can't think of all the kick ass Monk Archetypes you could take to get a ton of bonus feats, wisdom to ac or Still Mind?A two level dip in MoMS gets you 2 style feats. You don't care about losing Flurry because you get it as a brawler.
What's third place Rynjin?
Probably Pounce/Greater Beast Totem. That one's tied with a few. Wild Shape, for one. Spell Combat/Strike for another.
Wis to ac won't stack with light armor and just force you to take another high stat.
Fuse styles is cool, but wouldn't dump levels into a low bab class just to get it. There are cool monk archetypes, but nothing I'd be willing to stall class progression for.
You're not me. =)
Best "Monk" I ever made (so far) was a Brawler (archetype) 9/Monk 2/Ranger 2 by the end.
I posted it earlier in the thread. It gets a slight boost from houserules (Fighters get 4+Int skills for one) but man, the number of Feats and the beatdowns I could throw out were amazing.
I am just going to say that there are certain people on these boards that I will always respect, in terms of actually reading their posts, on the subjects they are most likely to embrace
With Ryjin, I am always going to read what Rynjin posts on the subjects of Monks
Well he was also a scaled up, bit more optimized version of a character I played through a good portion of an AP too (respecced from MoMS 6, took a break and played a Sorcerer, came back as Brawler 6/Monk 2) and it was just as good for that level, so I figured it counted.
I am just going to say that there are certain people on these boards that I will always respect, in terms of actually reading their posts, on the subjects they are most likely to embrace
With Ryjin, I am always going to read what Rynjin posts on the subjects of Monks
My fuzzies are so warm right now.
For the capstone I like Lord Twig's idea.
I also like the idea of flurrying with awesome blow. Thematically it works, imagine the fighter protecting a downed pc and sending scores of bad guys flying with punches and kicks!
Either/or, maybe a combo of both of those ideas.
Well he was also a scaled up, bit more optimized version of a character I played through a good portion of an AP too (respecced from MoMS 6, took a break and played a Sorcerer, came back as Brawler 6/Monk 2) and it was just as good for that level, so I figured it counted.
My fuzzies are so warm right now.I am just going to say that there are certain people on these boards that I will always respect, in terms of actually reading their posts, on the subjects they are most likely to embrace
With Ryjin, I am always going to read what Rynjin posts on the subjects of Monks
I sort of love your posts on the subject but I may every once think that every once in a while the posts that what you post are just awful
not often, but I always reserve the right to do so.
In any case, you virtually always do your monk due-diligence and I seriously respect that, if not always agree with it
Yeah, I probably know which ones you're talking about. Usually ones I get heavy opposition on that leads into a death spiral of incoherent rambling and worse.