I hope they keep the full CL for the bloodrager.
** spoiler omitted **
+1 i really like that cantrip idea i have to say.
What I am saying is that the flavor text doesn't match up very well with how the class uses magic. And, imho, while it may allow effective builds, spending some time buffing and then going into combat doesn't feel very BloodRAGEY to me. It's a bit more like "Here's a Barbarian with some specialized rage powers and we tacked on a very minor Sorcerer multi-class."
It just doesn't seem to mesh very well together in a way that fits the thematics.
This reminds me of something, actually: A while ago I tried working on a homebrew Sorcerer/Barbarian hybrid archetype that was a Sorcerer first and a Barbarian second (as opposed to the Bloodrager that's clearly a barbarian first and sorcerer second): 1/2 BAB and 9th-level spellcasting, but they get the special ability to go into a "Spellrage" where their spells get boosts to saves and CL that scales with level, like how Raging gives a level-scaling boost to STR and CON. Eventually I gave up on it because I couldn't figure out how to make it work in a thematically appropriate way while hitting that sweet spot between "Why would I ever play a normal Sorcerer over this" and "Why would I ever play this over a normal Sorcerer", but maybe it's worth revisiting. Hmm...
I don't know where this cantrips idea is coming from or how people think it would work. There is nothing like than on any other 4-level caster. Plus, it's weird, as this is primarily a raging warrior who occasionally buffs himself or blows something up.
Various suggestions:
- Demote him to level -3 for Caster Level, except in bloodrage. This keeps him from being a weirdly useful utility caster.
- In terms of keeping the spell list under control, let him use the magus list, but give him some ability that lets him cherrypick a few sor/wiz spells of the evocation, necromancy, or transmutation schools and add them to his spells known. If he prefers, he can learn more magus spells, instead.
- Leave bloodrage as a clone of rage (no Charisma boost or other weirdness) but give him +1 spell DC while in bloodrage, +1 more at 16th level.
- Feat idea: Reroll a caster level check while in bloodrage.
I really like where the Bloodrager is at at the moment. All I can think of to finetune it is to clarify wording on Bloodlines so that people don't make up dumb builds that require you to take a Sorcerer Bloodline you get no benefit from. Because people have been theorycrafting it and its been a waste of time.
Also the weaker Bloodlines need amping up. I'd consider Celestial a baseline for how good a Bloodline should be.
Threw together some sample builds!
Arcane Magekiller:
“Not today, Gandalf!”** spoiler omitted **Undead Fearmonger:
“Ever seen a wall drop dead from fright? It’s not pretty, kid.”** spoiler omitted **Unkillable Destined Half-Orc
“Whenever your DM tries to kill you: simply lean over, look him/her in the eye, and then laugh in their face.”** spoiler omitted **...
Fearmonger: Consider Kitsune, there are some penalties for sure (-2 Str, lack of bonus feat), but you can also pick up Vulpine Pounce.
I'd actually love to the bloodrage work off of charisma instead of con
If anything it will make bloodragers worse because they need a high Con in order to get many of the rage feats. Raging Vitality (a practically required feat) requires a Con of 15! So, unless they intend to ignore these feats, bloodragers will just get stuck with three primary stats since they wouldn't be able to ignore charisma as much.
I hope that they instead make bloodragers cast with Constitution instead of Charisma or just leave them alone.
Not sure if it has been commented on, but is anyone besides me put off that the Bloodrager knows more spells than he can easily cast in a day? Based on the current playtest PDF I would really rather see them switch the spells per day and spells known numbers, because seriously what is the point of knowing twice as many spells as you can cast, its a mix of barbarian and sorcerer not barbarian and wizard.
Contributor
|
I still hold that replacing Con with Cha in the class would be a good call, and I don't think the arguments of "YOU NEED CON FOR MELEE, FORGET CHA!" are that strong. I think people arguing that are forgetting something: paladins. You know, that full BAB, 4/9 casting class that relies heavily on Cha and yet still manages to be effective in melee?
Compare paladins to bloodragers as they are. Both want high STR for combat. Both want good CON for all the reasons melee classes need CON. Both can mostly ignore DEX, INT, and WIS to varying degrees depending on the details of the builds; paladins get away with lower dex due to heavy armor and lower wis due to divine grace, but both have those three as "dump" stats. Bloodragers, however, can almost completely ignore CHA, while paladins usually prioritize it second or third in their stats. Why? Paladins need CHA for all their abilities. Smite, divine grace, lay on hands, spells, and just about any DC the class generates through abilities, archetypes, or whatever. Bloodragers… use it for their spells. Which are more limited than paladins' due to having spells known, so they could just use non-DC spells and get by with 10+spell level CHA. Paladins are usually something like 1. STR, 2. CHA / CON, 3. everything else. Bloodragers can get by with CHA being 4th or 5th.
Now, consider bloodragers changing their bloodrage-related stat from CON to CHA. This means their rounds per day, their stat bonuses, bloodrage power effects, etc. Compare this version of bloodrager to paladins. Their stat priorities are about the same, though bloodrager still probably likes higher DEX and WIS than a paladin. Both want strong Charisma, but after STR and likely around the same as CON. CHA fuels their actions that aren't directly sword-to-face related (and some that are!), so a healthy modifier is wanted.
This isn't meant to turn the class into a paladin-hybrid (hell, I think making the class restricted to non-lawful alignment would be nice), simply to explain the viability of CHA-focused abilities on a melee class. After all, you aren't getting holy power to give you bonuses to attack or heal or anything like that. You use the raw potential of your bloodline to give you advantages and new powers, things you couldn't have done if you didn't have that bloodline, things that set you apart from normal people.
You know, like a SORCERER.
Oh, and because I'm on a paladin-tangent, here's a simple idea for CHA-rage:
BLOODY RESILIENCE (Su): At 2nd level, a bloodrager gains a bonus equal to their Charisma bonus (if any) on all saving throws while raging.
Want less MAD? Want the rage ability to do something more thematic and different than normal barbarians? Want a Charisma-rage to do something to help the class's survivability? Here you go. Take out the bonus to Will saves rage normally grants, toss this in, and have fun. You can even get rid of Uncanny Dodge - something I've seen a lot of people call for - and this fits perfectly.
I still hold that replacing Con with Cha in the class would be a good call, and I don't think the arguments of "YOU NEED CON FOR MELEE, FORGET CHA!" are that strong. I think people arguing that are forgetting something: paladins. You know, that full BAB, 4/9 casting class that relies heavily on Cha and yet still manages to be effective in melee?
Yes, but generally they have abilities that happen to make up for deficiencies in the stats you cut for more charisma. Saves, attack, damage, hitpoints, all of these things can be made up for through a high charisma on a paladin. Part of what allows them to work is that they have not a few abilities based on charisma but all of them based on it.
Replacing Con with Cha on a bloodrager would require a major rewrite as the higher hit points provided by the rage are part of what allows for the deficiency in AC to work. Combine a lack of hp provided by the higher con with a lower hit die and you have an even squishier glass cannon than I'd feel comfortable with on a full bab class.
The solution you provide here is neither particularly elegant nor very good. A bad copy of divine grace is still just bad. I'd like to be pushed away from a complete and total reliance on rage thank you.
A more interesting option might be basing the Bloodragers DR off of charisma instead with a push towards having more abilities within the bloodlines also being based more on charisma up to and including simply having a rage only divine grace (perhaps active in the celectial bloodline?).
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Heretical idea: Make their casting based on CON, just like their bloodline powers.
|
Contributor
|
Yes, but generally they have abilities that happen to make up for deficiencies in the stats you cut for more charisma. Saves, attack, damage, hitpoints, all of these things can be made up for through a high charisma on a paladin.
Not sure how paladins get hitpoints from CHA, but since you mention it, why not tie hitpoints to CHA for bloodragers? I thought about proposing such a thing to make the CON to CHA switch smoother, but I didn't see how it would pan out.
Combine a lack of hp provided by the higher con with a lower hit die and you have an even squishier glass cannon than I'd feel comfortable with on a full bab class.
I'd argue that bloodrager has a lot more to help out with anti-squishiness than a typical barbarian, mostly from their spellcasting. At least the way I've seen them so far. Barbarians with shield, blur, mirror image... much like a magus (whose spell-list they share), who only has a d8 hit die and doesn't get great AC until later on.
The solution you provide here is neither particularly elegant nor very good. A bad copy of divine grace is still just bad. I'd like to be pushed away from a complete and total reliance on rage thank you.
Thanks for the constructive criticism. Glad you were able to keep things civil and not at all blunt or insulting.
A more interesting option might be basing the Bloodragers DR off of charisma instead with a push towards having more abilities within the bloodlines also being based more on charisma up to and including simply having a rage only divine grace (perhaps active in the celectial bloodline?).
I agree more abilities based on CHA would help. I'd like to see more offensive effects within the bloodlines that aren't just damage dice or a self-buff. I think the coolest abilities are like the Fey bloodlines confusing critical and Draconic's breath weapon. I think having something outside of ragepowers based on CHA would be good too, if only because it would give you something to "upgrade" by raging that isn't only available in rage.
Heretical idea: Make their casting based on CON, just like their bloodline powers.
They did this with Scarred Witch Doctor. It turns them into a very SAD class, only really needing CON to do well. It might not be too dangerous, given that they only get 4 spell levels. It would push them even farther away from sorcerers, but other than that it could work.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Not sure how paladins get hitpoints from CHA, but since you mention it, why not tie hitpoints to CHA for bloodragers? I thought about proposing such a thing to make the CON to CHA switch smoother, but I didn't see how it would pan out.
Not that great. If you're switching the HP from CON to CHA why are you bothering to switch from CON to CHA? Seems too messy.
Where paladins get more HP is in Lay On Hands which in effect grants the paladin more HP. Swift action self heals are good for that.
I'd argue that bloodrager has a lot more to help out with anti-squishiness than a typical barbarian, mostly from their spellcasting. At least the way I've seen them so far. Barbarians with shield, blur, mirror image... much like a magus (whose spell-list they share), who only has a d8 hit die and doesn't get great AC until later on.
Yes and no. Having spells doesn't necessarily represent an opportunity to use them. The magus has a brilliant amount of action economy inherent in both class and equipment options, being able to throw out three possible spells in a turn is no joke whatsoever on an offensive casting class. However bloodragers lack this economy and are stuck in paladin/ranger land where spells are a tricky secondary or even tertiary option.
To get on about barbarians. Many of a barbarians defensive capabilities come online as soon as they rage, and if we know anything about barbarain's it's that they have very good defensive capabilities while raging. Combo that with a big hit die and it works out quite well for them.
Additionally many of the spells you mentioned won't even come into play until 7th level. That's a long time to wait for the opportunity to blow a standard action on a defensive buff. While this works out great for a defensive minded bloodrager with a long reach and combat reflexes (a style I'm using an aberrant rager with right now) it translates poorly into the idea of an overwhelming supernatural juggernaut with the literal blood of dragons rushing through him and empowering his axe right through your shield wall.
As for the rest if you call something of yours being judged bad as a personal insult you may want to save yourself some grief and try not to throw mechanics out there for judgment. Given in this playtest alone I've seen far harsher criticisms lobbed at the actual professionals working on this I think my bluntness is a soft soothing caress by comparison.
One more vote for CON bast casting. It would fit well I think.
|
Contributor
|
Where paladins get more HP is in Lay On Hands which in effect grants the paladin more HP. Swift action self heals are good for that.
I think that's a good place to start. Bloodrager has a need for padding and a lack of CHA effects. And yeah, their action economy isn't as spectacular as a magus's. Maybe something using rounds of rage or using their spellcasting while raging to help cushion in melee, especially swift or immediate activation. Popping a spell slot for temporary hit points, a one-time bonus to AC or saves, or something else based on spell level X CHA or something similar.
To get on about barbarians. Many of a barbarians defensive capabilities come online as soon as they rage, and if we know anything about barbarain's it's that they have very good defensive capabilities while raging. Combo that with a big hit die and it works out quite well for them.
Huge HP + DR + raging defensive buffs are all good for the barbarian, yes. Bloodrager has less HP and less defense to work with, which is a problem. What I was suggesting is something that would get defensive capabilities based on CHA. Rather than simply tack on another stat to focus on, letting CHA replace things makes for a good way to allow it to be prominent in the class without making it weaker everywhere else. Hence divine grace. It's a quick and dirty way to make CHA relevant in defenses. By no means is it the only way for it to do anything defensive with a typically non-defensive stat, just the first thing that came to mind.
As for the rest if you call something of yours being judged bad as a personal insult you may want to save yourself some grief and try not to throw mechanics out there for judgment. Given in this playtest alone I've seen far harsher criticisms lobbed at the actual professionals working on this I think my bluntness is a soft soothing caress by comparison.
You're more than welcome to judge something as bad - hell, if it's gonna screw over the class, it should be called out - but it doesn't mean you have to be a jerk about it. You had very good points that deserve to be brought up. "That doesn't work because X" is just as critical as "your idea sucks" while actually adding to the discussion, though. After all:
Keep it civil and polite folks. Remember we are all here to make this book the best it can be.
I have absolutely no idea if this has been brought up as I lost track of this thread very early on.
Has anyone brought up using Eldritch Heritage to select a bloodline you already have? I know this probably isn't intended, but I can't seem to think of any reason why it wouldn't.
It occurred to me because I was considering a Bloodrager test, and I noticed the Abyssal Bloodline doesn't grant an inherent bonus, like the Sorcerer one does, it increases the morale bonus to Strength while raging.
Come 20th level, you have a Bloodrager who gets a +14 Morale bonus to Strength, and if they used Eldritch Heritage (Abyssal) and Improved Heritage (Strength of the Abyss) they could, potentially (assuming Strength prime), have a Strength score of 52 while raging. This gives them a +41/+36/+31/+26 and a +21 to damage without any magic bonuses or other feats or anything. Start tossing on the usual bonuses and you have the potential for some truly outrageous DPR.
|
how bout a con based archetype like witch doctor? and cha based casting otherwise, since it is a sorcerer blend.
for feats that require a certain con such as raging vitality ( i'm not aware of any of the rage powers that require a min con ), give them a negligible ability as part of Bloodrage that lets them substitute Cha for Con requirements in feats that have Rage as a requirement.
Right now they don't qualify for Raging Vitality anyway: they don't have the Rage ability, they have Bloodrage =P
how bout a con based archetype like witch doctor? and cha based casting otherwise, since it is a sorcerer blend.
for feats that require a certain con such as raging vitality ( i'm not aware of any of the rage powers that require a min con ), give them a negligible ability as part of Bloodrage that lets them substitute Cha for Con requirements in feats that have Rage as a requirement.
Right now they don't qualify for Raging Vitality anyway: they don't have the Rage ability, they have Bloodrage =P
bloodrage counts as rage for the purposes of rage feats... This has been mentioned before.
The Barbarian, via Rage Powers, has a number of inherent defensive options the Bloodrager doesn't have (without spending feats, I guess - there is one to get a rage power, right?).
Nope. Extra Rage Power requires "Rage power class feature", which the Bloodrager doesn't have. Short of taking Barbarian levels (which they can't do under the current multiclassing rules) there's no way for Bloodragers to get access to the (actually quite many) sweet options in rage powers at all.
The Barbarian, via Rage Powers, has a number of inherent defensive options the Bloodrager doesn't have (without spending feats, I guess - there is one to get a rage power, right?).Nope. Extra Rage Power requires "Rage power class feature", which the Bloodrager doesn't have. Short of taking Barbarian levels (which they can't do under the current multiclassing rules) there's no way for Bloodragers to get access to the (actually quite many) sweet options in rage powers at all.
Bloodrage counts as Rage for prereqs, I'd definitely rule it qualifies for extra rage powers.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
they don't "absolutely" need a high con to survive.
it helps that they have hp, but a regular barb can wear light and medium armor and shields, same as a bloodrager. I've seen a Barbarian with stalwart/improved stalwart get phenomenal DR, at which point his Con doesn't matter at all.
Emphasizing Con as a casting stat leaves a bad taste in my mouth, even for a bloodrager. The source of their bloodrage is their bloodline/magic, which roots in the Sorcerer's Charisma.
having lots of hit points help, and yes raging vitality is *required* for barbarians above a certain character level ( but that's a paizo design flaw, requiring a Con 15 as prerequisite for a feat that keeps your barbarian alive while unconscious ).
if the *arcane* version of the raging class could do something differently, one thing is to turn the bonus hp gained during rage into Temp Hp a'la False Life. then you have an instant spell effect attached to your bloodrage: +2 temp hp/ bloodrager level. ( if they were feeling even more generous, if they base the Rage on 4 + 2 rounds/level + Cha rounds/day and its only providing a stat enhancement of +4 str, and +2 temp hp/level as a false life spell effect, there mightn't be as much reason to make it a blind rage: drop the -2 to AC. They're using magic not madness to fuel their rage, and that magic can be more easily controlled.
there's lots of paladin builds that work well with high str/cha, and decent dex/con, that don't fall apart the moment they take a little damage.
if they had temp hp which can't be healed, as temp hp are wont to do, but refresh each rage, taking the fatigue during combat and cycling rage in an encounter becomes more "interesting".
Bloodrage counts as Rage for prereqs, I'd definitely rule it qualifies for extra rage powers.
Bloodrage only counts as Rage, it doesn't count as having the Rage Power class feature. Otherwise, you could take Extra Rage Power at level 1 and get a rage power early.
...Actually, I'd be fine with that, and Bloodragers need some more oomph to be able to compete with barbarians anyway. Barring official word from the developers though, Bloodragers can't take Extra Rage Power.
It counts as rage for prereqs...
Unfortunately that's not what extra rage power requires:
Prerequisite: Rage power class feature.
|
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
Can a bloodrager use bloodlines other then the ones listed in their class entry?
I don't think so. Bloodrage Bloodlines work differently than sorcerer bloodlines, even if they share names. It would be like a Warpriest taking a Domain instead of a blessing.
The problem is unlike the warpriest a Sorcerer's Bloodline and a Bloodrager's bloodline are both called bloodlines, where as the warpriest doesn't get abilities called domains.
There's nothing that says that they can't and they have the same name, so my assumption is that they can, and I'm asking to be proven wrong.
In the interests of reducing confusion, they should have a different name.
I'm sure the many 'Slaine' readers would appreciate it if they were called 'Warps'.
My bad, I've been caught with my foot in my mouth. Hadn't made enough barbarians to know the exact prereq. It would be nice if they qualified for it anyway though, Thorg wants to take Superstitious.
|
|
- In terms of keeping the spell list under control, let him use the magus list, but give him some ability that lets him cherrypick a few sor/wiz spells of the evocation, necromancy, or transmutation schools and add them to his spells known. If he prefers, he can learn more magus spells, instead.
The bloodlines already add some spells to the list.
Is it your belief that these are not enough?(I don't disagree with you, just wondered whether you'd missed them. I like classes with a certain measure of customisation, rather than all members of the same bloodline being virtual clones.)
|
Not to be rude, but do you Care to share the built. It sounds almost too good to be true:)
How Many rounds of pre battel buff did you need. And did you remember the stacking rules?
as a quick build, it is orc bloodline eldritch heritage (inherent +6) + belt (enhancement +6) + rage (moral+14) + power of giants(size +6 over the normal +2 for enlarge person) + manual of strength (untyped +5)+ levels (+4)+ (a missing +6 i cant think of off the top of my head) + base 20 = 65 strength
all different types of bonuses and this isnt counting Monstrous Physique II which can net pounce.
- In terms of keeping the spell list under control, let him use the magus list, but give him some ability that lets him cherrypick a few sor/wiz spells of the evocation, necromancy, or transmutation schools and add them to his spells known. If he prefers, he can learn more magus spells, instead.The bloodlines already add some spells to the list.
Is it your belief that these are not enough?(I don't disagree with you, just wondered whether you'd missed them. I like classes with a certain measure of customisation, rather than all members of the same bloodline being virtual clones.)
I think the main problem right now is that many of the bloodlines add spells that simply aren't useful for a bloodrager. Plus, they are gained incredibly late. Example: Draconic Bloodragers don't gain the 'fly' spell until after they can already grow wings.
Fearmonger: Consider Kitsune, there are some penalties for sure (-2 Str, lack of bonus feat), but you can also pick up Vulpine Pounce.Threw together some sample builds!
Arcane Magekiller:
“Not today, Gandalf!”** spoiler omitted **Undead Fearmonger:
“Ever seen a wall drop dead from fright? It’s not pretty, kid.”** spoiler omitted **Unkillable Destined Half-Orc
“Whenever your DM tries to kill you: simply lean over, look him/her in the eye, and then laugh in their face.”** spoiler omitted **...
those are mostly just sample builds to get other folks' brainjuices flowing on builds, feel free to kitsune it up, son.
Someone awhile back suggested they get full caster level while raging. I support that idea.
Giving them full casters levels 100% of the time is bad because no other 4th level casters has it.
Not giving them full caster level at all is bad because they have all these spells on their spell list like Burning Hands and Shocking Grasp that are close to useless with the reduced levels. Yeah, buffing spells are good, but don't give them all this stuff they can't use effectively.
Full CL while raging is thematically appropriate and shouldnt be game breaking.
|
Someone awhile back suggested they get full caster level while raging. I support that idea.
Giving them full casters levels 100% of the time is bad because no other 4th level casters has it.
Actually it is exactly because the other 4th level casters don't have it is what makes it a great idea, it shows the BR as being more of a caster than a Paladin or a Ranger, whose spells are almost purely backup or utility.
Full CL while raging is thematically appropriate and shouldnt be game breaking.
Except when they want to cast utility or non-offensive spells, then it's just awkward.
Someone awhile back suggested they get full caster level while raging. I support that idea.
Giving them full casters levels 100% of the time is bad because no other 4th level casters has it.
Actually it is exactly because the other 4th level casters don't have it is what makes it a great idea, it shows the BR as being more of a caster than a Paladin or a Ranger, whose spells are almost purely backup or utility.
Full CL while raging is thematically appropriate and shouldnt be game breaking.Except when they want to cast utility or non-offensive spells, then it's just awkward.
how is it awkward when theyre not under a penalty?
how does the extra CL hurt those utility or non-offensive spells, other than increasing their duration or effects, especially how late you get them?
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Except when they want to cast utility or non-offensive spells, then it's just awkward.
They're bloodragers, not bloodhelpers.
So, the Constitution casting thing. It has been tried, many times, throughout 3.0 and 3.5. I can't think of a single example where it turned out to be a good idea. You have SAD, in such a way that jukes the character's final numbers, but doesn't give them enough versatility. It's particularly bad for NPCS, like if you added bloodrager levels to a dimwitted ogre. AEG had a book called Magic that had a runemage; you could have Int 8, Wis 8, Cha 8, and still be an incredibly good at forge magic. It just didn't make sense. I don't think it makes any more sense for the bloodrager, since their powers are based on their rage, not their quantity of blood. Charisma = superhuman expression of personality is already an established trope with the sorcerer, wilder, and so forth. Also, let's face it, the bloodrager test so far has not turned out with them being particularly weak.
Strip out the legacy uncanny dodge, fast movement, DR; fix the bloodline spell lists; boost their offensive casting while raging; maybe let them actually select one or two rage powers. Done.
|
|
I think the main problem right now is that many of the bloodlines add spells that simply aren't useful for a bloodrager. Plus, they are gained incredibly late. Example: Draconic Bloodragers don't gain the 'fly' spell until after they can already grow wings.
Yes, that is a bit sad.
It does mean they can cast it on others (yay!), but even that's likely to be an anticlimax, at the level they get it, since any noncaster who needs it will have made other arrangements via potion, UMD scroll/wand or winged boots.
Limited spells/day means they'll be wanting to reserve most of them for casting on themselves. I see it as a selfish caster; his allies should be holding him back from sprouting his wings and leaping into the fray, not sitting on the backline, giving out buffs to others.
Or, "They're Bloodragers, not Bloodhelpers.".
A very good point.
|
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Is there any reason the spells gained from the bloodline only become available long after the Bloodrager has been casting spells of that level?
It happens with the Sorcerer too, and it always seemed weird to me, that a spell that was supposedly an essential core of their being should be delayed till after a spell they have to choose to learn.
Shouldn't the bloodline spell be the first one they learn?
So this compulsory spell doesn't mess with the player's theme, it could be learned one level before the current threshold, eg level 1 bloodline spell is learned at bloodrager level 3, level 2 spell at bloodrager level 6, ...
Add a 'spells per day' entry of '0' at bloodrager levels 3, 6, 9, and 12, with instructions that the bloodrager only has any spell slots of that spell level if their Charisma is high enough to give a bonus spell.
So, a Cha 12+ bloodrager, at level 3 would have a single spell known of whatever his bloodline gave him, and one spell slot to cast it with.
A level 6 bloodrager, with Cha 14+ would have a single level 2 spell slot, with which to cast his level 2 bloodline spell, etc.
Even after allowing this proposed earlier access, you're still only looking at one casting of fly (or similar power) at level 9, which is long after it became a game-changing ability.
Someone awhile back suggested they get full caster level while raging. I support that idea.
Giving them full casters levels 100% of the time is bad because no other 4th level casters has it.
Actually it is exactly because the other 4th level casters don't have it is what makes it a great idea, it shows the BR as being more of a caster than a Paladin or a Ranger, whose spells are almost purely backup or utility.
Full CL while raging is thematically appropriate and shouldnt be game breaking.Except when they want to cast utility or non-offensive spells, then it's just awkward.how is it awkward when theyre not under a penalty?
how does the extra CL hurt those utility or non-offensive spells, other than increasing their duration or effects, especially how late you get them?
They should just get full CL period. Only while raging means their buffs are easier to dispel.
Also, full CL doesn't solve the fundamental problem with their spells while raging. They are hardly going to have any spells worth casting in combat. Certainly nothing worth a standard action. And they aren't going to have any decent way to make casting worthwhile short of just buffs.
Main problem with the class right now, imho. Too little magic in their rage. If their magic is just supposed to be utility, then the flavor text should change. Right now it doesn't imply that at all.
Also, I really don't think the flavor text is wrong. Mr. Rage Mage should be using some spells when he attacks.
...
Except when they want to cast utility or non-offensive spells, then it's just awkward.They're bloodragers, not bloodhelpers.
So, the Constitution casting thing. It has been tried, many times, throughout 3.0 and 3.5. I can't think of a single example where it turned out to be a good idea. You have SAD, in such a way that jukes the character's final
they can cast out of rage. as far as ive seen, the CL thing is across the board (in comparison to the ranger/paladin, who take a hit). unless SKR orJJ has popped in to kneecap that and i didnt notice.
|
|
...Someone awhile back suggested they get full caster level while raging. I support that idea.
Giving them full casters levels 100% of the time is bad because no other 4th level casters has it.
Actually it is exactly because the other 4th level casters don't have it is what makes it a great idea, it shows the BR as being more of a caster than a Paladin or a Ranger, whose spells are almost purely backup or utility.
Full CL while raging is thematically appropriate and shouldnt be game breaking.Except when they want to cast utility or non-offensive spells, then it's just awkward.how is it awkward when theyre not under a penalty?
how does the extra CL hurt those utility or non-offensive spells, other than increasing their duration or effects, especially how late you get them?
They should just get full CL period. Only while raging means their buffs are easier to dispel.
Also, full CL doesn't solve the fundamental problem with their spells while raging. They are hardly going to have any spells worth casting in combat. Certainly nothing worth a standard action. And they aren't going to have any decent way to make casting worthwhile short of just buffs.
Main problem with the class right now, imho. Too little magic in their rage. If their magic is just supposed to be utility, then the flavor text should change. Right now it doesn't imply that at all.
Also, I really don't think the flavor text is wrong. Mr. Rage Mage should be using some spells when he attacks.
Except when they want to cast utility or non-offensive spells, then it's just awkward.They're bloodragers, not bloodhelpers.
So, the Constitution casting thing. It has been tried, many times, throughout 3.0 and 3.5. I can't think of a single example where it turned out to be a good idea. You have SAD, in such a way that
The awkwardness was referring to having a diminished CL outside of raging, which would limit them to buffing themselves until the fight has already started, which is when they should be slashing and blasting. I am in favor of the Full CL.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
The unfortunate thing here is that there really isn't a way for bloodrager spells to be worth using in mid combat without giving them Spellstrike, Spell Combat or some similar way of casting while attacking. This may be stealing too much from the magus though, so maybe a better route would be to simply give bloodragers more magic based powers and defenses so they are more paladin-like?
Alternatively, bloodragers could get an alternate list similar to the Paladin or Ranger. All of the best spells from those lists use swift or immediate actions, and that may fit the bloodrager's style more.
At least Paizo has several routes they can choose to go with in modifying this class.
| 5 people marked this as a favorite. |
Actually, here is an idea that may fit bloodragers well: allow them to 'burn' rounds of rage in order to cast a spell as a swift action. The number of rounds of rage they have to expend would be equal to the level of the spell.
This would make it possible for them to cast in combat, but they woudln't be able to do it all the time because it would be expending a limited resource. Plus, the fact that the resource being expending is 'rage' it fits the theme of the class perfectly. Plus, they may be able to make do with just the Magus spell list instead of getting a custom one!
Edit: an alternative idea would be that the bloodrager could expend rounds of rage to add metamagic to their spells. This would give them a choice between casting quickly in mid melee combat (via quicken) or casting a spell that does noteworthy damage (via maximize or similar). With this variation, the number of rounds of rage expended would equal the level required by the metamagic feat.
|
|
The unfortunate thing here is that there really isn't a way for bloodrager spells to be worth using in mid combat without giving them Spellstrike, Spell Combat or some similar way of casting while attacking.
i would love for a "spell storing" enchantment for your weapon as a class feature, that doesnt stack with the spell storing weapon enchantment. standard action to load up your weapon with a spell, then unleash it as part of an attack. it would let you be similar enough to a magus to let everyone know that you are a powerhouse gish type, but not as powerful as a magus.
something like: " you may cast any spell from your bloodrager list into your weapon as a standard action, then release it as a free action after hitting your target, this ability functions as the spell storing weapon enchant only you may add up to a 4th level spell instead."
also i wouldnt mind a spell recall ability, like other have suggested that you need to burn rage rounds for the spell recall ability?
|
|
Actually, here is an idea that may fit bloodragers well: allow them to 'burn' rounds of rage in order to cast a spell as a swift action. The number of rounds of rage they have to expend would be equal to the level of the spell.
This would make it possible for them to cast in combat, but they woudln't be able to do it all the time because it would be expending a limited resource. Plus, the fact that the resource being expending is 'rage' it fits the theme of the class perfectly. Plus, they may be able to make do with just the Magus spell list instead of getting a custom one!
This is one of my favorite solutions of those that have been mentioned so far.
Actually, here is an idea that may fit bloodragers well: allow them to 'burn' rounds of rage in order to cast a spell as a swift action. The number of rounds of rage they have to expend would be equal to the level of the spell.
This would make it possible for them to cast in combat, but they woudln't be able to do it all the time because it would be expending a limited resource. Plus, the fact that the resource being expending is 'rage' it fits the theme of the class perfectly. Plus, they may be able to make do with just the Magus spell list instead of getting a custom one!
Edit: an alternative idea would be that the bloodrager could expend rounds of rage to add metamagic to their spells. This would give them a choice between casting quickly in mid melee combat (via quicken) or casting a spell that does noteworthy damage (via maximize or similar). With this variation, the number of rounds of rage expended would equal the level required by the metamagic feat.
Yes, I said both of those above. I also proposed a X times/rage quicken spell (X maybe being 1, maybe just depending on level) as another option.
Though if they used Rage to cast well while Raging, they might need to buff the rounds of rage they get.
Haha, I was wondering if someone had beaten me to this idea XD