Almost dying due to incompetence, what should I do?


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So here is my problem:
My party essentially stood around and watched me almost die to four assassin vines. The only two people who were even remotely attempting to help me were the Summoner and the Bard.

Precursor:
Every time we are camping for the night I dig a 10-ft deep trench around our camp so we will get some early warning and a buffer from mindless enemies attacking our fortified position.

My position in the group:
In my Second Darkness campaign I am playing a Aasimar werewolf fighter/sorcerer/DD, and I am essentially the Tank/Offensive caster due to my DR and caster level. I am a switch-hitting character who doesn't wear armor. My DR10/silver protects me from most of the damage.

The battle went like this:
There was rustling outside our camp in the forest, I threw in my grappling hook with the summoner's eidolon hanging out with me. The hook grabbed onto something so we pulled it out. Assassin vines!--four of them!

I was grappled on the first round, pinned on the second, and thrashed around on all subsequent rounds.
The summoner's eidolon helped fight them, and he proceeded to continue cooking. When his eidolon died he started summoning to help in the fight.
The bard ineffectively shot his bow at them. Not much he could do.
The Cleric decided to jump the five foot wide trench and fail, so she spent the entire fight in the trench.
The Dhampir necromancer spent the entire fight trying to help the cleric out of the trench.
The first Rogue spent most of the fight hiding, and then after I fell unconscious he ran up to get knocking out from an AOO.
The second rogue was on his IPAD so we just started skipping him.

So, here is where I am at: What is my character to think of this?
The priorities of most of the characters is obviously in the wrong place, seeing how I spent most of the fight having him yell stuff like, "Help me you idiots," while the other PCs just spent their time arguing with each other instead of helping me.

So,
people I'm thinking Silastrix still likes: Summoner, Bard,
people I'm thinking Silastrix feels abandoned him: Cleric, Necromancer, Rogue(Batman), and Rogue(Dwarf).

My question is this: his character is that he believes that he is a God dragon at heart, he also understands the prejudice against lycanthropes, how is he to take this low prioritization of his own well being by his allies?

My idea is that he only cares about the Summoner and Bard, but at the same time there is one very apparent problem: I am the tank and the primary damage caster. I keep them from dying, I stand in the way and help get them to safety, and if I stop protecting key people they are going to most likely get killed.

Silastrix is Neutral Good, so based on the above what assumptions would be reasonable for him to come to about his "allies"?

My and my DM were talking about it after the fact, and he was telling me that he was getting angrier than I was. We started popping jokes like, "Mythic pit, incapacitates 3 people" and so forth.
Even he was complaining to the party about the fight, "werewolf is getting beaten to death, what are you guys doing? Nothing? K."


Heya Taku!

An easy solution to your character being pinned would be to have one of the other character delay and attack when the enemy makes their grapple check. If you get hurt while making a CMB check you eat a a penalty equal to damage dealt. Which pretty much means you get freed heh!

On to your moral conundrum.

Neutral Good characters seek progression of good in all its forms regardless of law or chaos.

Is Silastrix really distressed about the manner? He could seriously have misgivings about the party itself. "Is it worth risking my life sticking with these fools? Or should I find more capable compatriots?"

He could talk to them and see if he can get their priorities straightened. Did the party make it obvious that they weren't helping you because you were werewolf? Silastrix may be jumping to conclusions, which isn't to say he shouldn't to a degree, his life was in danger!

Perhaps he should take some time to meditate on the matter.


We are traveling with the Cyper Mage Samaratha in Second Darkness. She is probably going back to the mainland, and Silastrix might go with her as a retainer to get away from these fools.

The party wasn't helping me because they are idiots. They don't care that he is a werewolf, they just know he continues to talk about dragon-kind, Apsu, and so forth.

I am the one who actively moves the storyline forward, its all about the goal, its all about beating the crap out of Kleg, I set an objective, and lead them to victory.

I am thinking about not defending the party members who didn't help me, and just protecting the ones who tried to help me in the battle. I'll allow them to be in command of their own destinies, and help them if all is lost for them as maybe then they'll give a damn.


Taku Ooka Nin wrote:

We are traveling with the Cyper Mage Samaratha in Second Darkness. She is probably going back to the mainland, and Silastrix might go with her as a retainer to get away from these fools.

The party wasn't helping me because they are idiots. They don't care that he is a werewolf, they just know he continues to talk about dragon-kind, Apsu, and so forth.

I am the one who actively moves the storyline forward, its all about the goal, its all about beating the crap out of Kleg, I set an objective, and lead them to victory.

I am thinking about not defending the party members who didn't help me, and just protecting the ones who tried to help me in the battle. I'll allow them to be in command of their own destinies, and help them if all is lost for them as maybe then they'll give a damn.

It pains me to hear Silastrix is having such difficulty with his party Taku.

However my friend, the path of be and let be strays from our righteous cause of Good. You must rise to the challenge and guide them with a gentle yet firm hand. As an old prophet once said, turn the other cheek. Befriend those who would have left you to your doom. Be the better man. That is what makes a Good man. And if you have not yet accomplished that, what hope have Silastrix of becoming recognized as more than a beast.

Scarab Sages

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I could see the mental analysis going as so:
Summoner: tried to help, actually helped
Bard: tried to help , kinda helped
Cleric: tried to help, failed at helping
First Rouge: unknown if tired to help (what did you expect from a rouge?)
Second Rouge: Really good sleeper
Necromancer: did not try to help.

The only one I would say actively didn't help you was the necromancer, the first rouge maybe too. The cleric and second rouge could easily just be incompetent.

You're the one who went outside your perimeter and thus had to face the consiquences of your less agile allies not being able to reach you. (also digging a 5x10 trench around your entire camp is a LOT of work, I'm surprised your DM didn't ask as to how long you're going to spend digging up at least 3000 cubic feet of dirt)

Your character could very well internalize that the necromancer (and possibly first rouge) didn't help because they don't care about a filthy lycanthropes, but that is up to your character.


I have read many of your postings on these forums and you look like a smart guy. So I don't want to beat around the bush, but come to the facts:

Is it a character or a player issue? :-)


If I were you, I would only help the summoner, bard, and maybe the cleric. If the others are close to death and need help, I would only help'em when they acknowledged that they need me, so if I get in a bad situation in the future, the team will actually try to do something to help. That said, Scavion is right that you know Silastrix better than us, and thus you should decide how her point of view about this matter truly is.


One incident can be written off as a bad day. But is this just one incident? I assume the guy playing on the ipad zones out every game, but have the others been unhelpful in other sessions?

I wonder perhaps if they know your stats and thus think "hey you have 10 points of DR, you should be able to shrug it off".


Level 1 Commoner wrote:
Is it a character or a player issue? :-)

It is an I like Silastrix, mostly because his character is fundamentally flawed, and I don't want to lose him because the other players at the table decide to act like a pack of retarded rabbits.

Silastrix is doing everything he can to protect them, to help them, to save them, to lead them to victory, to batter down the barriers in our way, and to lead them to glorious draconic glory against the scum and villainy of Riddle Port. He is in the party to make money to fund his adventuring life so that one day he can gain form of the dragon, go find Asarathian, turn into a gold dragon, and demand recognition as a gold dragon and remove his pet-collar.

He has 3 eventual endings, one leads him to worship Ashava, the default leads him to solidify himself as a follower of Apsu, and the last leads him to worship Jezelda to the detriment of the world.

Silastrix tries his best to help these people and when he needs help they are bickering between themselves?! Seriously?! What the hell? He gets slammed against rocks and the ground, and some of them are more concerned about helping someone out of a pit when they are not even being threatened? I don't want Silastrix to die, or more to the point, I don't want him to die to some mundane thing. If he dies in an epic confrontation with a major villain or something that is awesome then I'm totally fine with it. If he dies because the party is too busy screwing around then that is when I get angry.
That is when the party abandons my character.
That is when I bring in the villain who cares only for himself and his profits.
If they abandon the character who seeks glory for all, then they get the character that seeks glory for one, and one alone.

The problem is a player issue, my goals of not dying do not coincide with some of their goals of enabling me to die.

Dark Archive

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Taku Ooka Nin wrote:

Precursor:

Every time we are camping for the night I dig a 10-ft deep trench around our camp so we will get some early warning and a buffer from mindless enemies attacking our fortified position.

Sorry but my brain kinda crashed into a brick wall and refused to read further after this.

You dig a 10 ft. deep (about 3 metres) trench every time you camp around a defensive area. Every time. 10 ft. deep.

Even with a gross approximation, how long is this trench? Do you accomplish this herculean feat alone? Do you have some kind of magic assistance in doing this?


You should keep playing your PC if he gets bitter and start to hate his companions it is great. Og you get bitter and start ressentiment the folks you play with? Wall away.
I am not familiar with the adventure path. But i think a DD asimar werwolf that i persume have the lycantropy under control since he can use the hybrid form at will. Sounds like a bit of the chart. I asume you are high level and that you use magic to dig that hole every nigth?
I can without knowing you or any of the guys you play with imagine how the other PCs may get annoyed( in game) with a overenergetic monster that keeps acting like he knows it all.
If your character is more powerfull than the other PCs it may also be like folks feel there is a DM PET issue.

But any way if it is a in game issue stay in character and if it is not? Talk to everybody involved.
Dont joke about the other PCs or players with the DM when they are not there that attitude may be the root of the problem.
And if it is a in game problem enjoy it, it is a great oppotunity!

Edit: also if you try to look it from the others perspektive. The fool that throw his grabbeling hook out after sounds in the nigth may be the incompetent one.


Cap. Darling wrote:

You should keep playing your PC if he gets bitter and start to hate his companions it is great. Og you get bitter and start ressentiment the folks you play with? Wal[k] away.

[ . . . ]But [I] think a DD asimar werwolf that i p[re]sume have the lycantropy under control since he can use the hybrid form at will. Sounds like a bit of the chart. I asume you are high level and that you use magic to dig that hole every nig[ht]?
I can without knowing you or any of the guys you play with imagine how the other PCs may get annoyed( in game) with a overenergetic monster that keeps acting like he knows it all.
If your character is more powerfull than the other PCs it may also be like folks feel there is a DM PET issue.

But any way if it is a in game issue stay in character and if it is not? Talk to everybody involved.
Dont joke about the other PCs or players with the DM when they are not there that attitude may be the root of the problem.
And if it is a in game problem enjoy it, it is a great oppotunity!

In essence I am the regular DM, the current DM is the guy who wants to learn/master DMing. I'm playing a nat-born werewolf, witchwolves were not available at the time, and while I have asked if I should remove his level in warrior such has been met with him pointing out that it is of no consequence in the grand scheme of the party.

No one if the game has made any mention as to what they want to do, where they want to go, or really done anything in terms of attempting to direct the course of the adventure. It always boils down to nothing happens, no one does anything, and then Silastrix is like, "Come! To the flash of light and the tower in the distance!" Everyone packs up, and we travel together. If they had other ideas then it would be up to the party to vote, but it never happens.

The trench just sort of happens, and the DM fiats it happening. This translates to it happens because it benefits the party.

DM PET isn't the issue, because if that was the case I'd be playing a vulpinal or a silvanshee instead--I like agathions. We had an entire 7-page character creation guideline that everyone received, and I'm the only one who took advantage of the template rules that we laid down.

We always joke about the poor decisions some of the players make. That is the type of group we are, and more often than not it is light-hearted and fun. The Summoner's army of Eagles that defeated big-bad at the end of the first book, the Cleric's decision to use Channel Energy when surrounded by 7 unconscious enemies to heal one unconscious ally (this one is still referenced and it happened 9 weeks ago).

golem101 wrote:
Taku Ooka Nin wrote:

Precursor:

Every time we are camping for the night I dig a 10-ft deep trench around our camp so we will get some early warning and a buffer from mindless enemies attacking our fortified position.

Sorry but my brain kinda crashed into a brick wall and refused to read further after this.

You dig a 10 ft. deep (about 3 metres) trench every time you camp around a defensive area. Every time. 10 ft. deep.

Even with a gross approximation, how long is this trench? Do you accomplish this herculean feat alone? Do you have some kind of magic assistance in doing this?

We assume that the party helps with this in some fashion, or that it is possible because the DM says it is possible. Evidently, he just goes out and does it. The party is just a little safer, the adventure carries on even if it is the more ridiculous that it is somehow possible.

The Exchange

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber

This sounds a lot like the campaigns that my teenage/early twenties children play. Young gamers?

Maybe the werewolf aasimar has a super Bugs Bunny ability to dig trenches?

I would be careful just blindly throwing grappling hooks out to see what the fishing line pulls back in. This reminds me of an incident where we were playing with a group that consisted of two paladins and one rogue. While the paladins were busy with evening prayers at the temple the rogue decided to question one of the city guards by using his grappling hook to pull the guard down from the city wall. The result was a loud ka-chunk sound followed by a splat on the cobblestones when he crit'd on the dice rolls. Hilarity ensued when the paladins returned from prayer time and the rogue had to explain that the group needed to leave town quickly without giving away that he just murdered one of the town guards.

You may be going through some growing pains in the group where some of the players are just there to hang out and goof off while others are there to play a serious game.

I'm seeing an aasimar werewolf, a dhampir, and a batman. There is a party size of 7. That's pretty big. Maybe the guy on the iPad is slightly bored with the fact that it takes an hour to perform one round of game-play before it gets back to his/her turn. Maybe he has a girlfriend on the other end that is much more interesting than anything that is going on in the game? Maybe the GM needs to institute my rule that there will be "no electronic distractions at the gaming table." My 22-year-old and 19-year-old son played in games that sounded like this. It always reminded me of this:

http://www.kraproom.com/pacman/aod/gallery/d/3451-1/GURPS.jpg

Maybe splitting the group into two groups so that those that want to play a different play-style can enjoy it more?

If everyone getting together really is the goal, then maybe you'll just have to find ways to enjoy being social despite the in-game problems.

I eventually caved to some of the tastes of the younger generation, but I still use the "Acceptance" rules presented in the Bestiary of Krynn Revised (by Margaret Weiss Productions) in traditional settings, but also have some non-traditional settings that we play in where the character races are acceptable.

What should you do? That depends.

You probably need to have a conversation with your Game Master about what is fun for you and what is detracting from your fun. I wouldn't lobby for removing anyone from the game, but having some GM ground-rules and eventually a GM-led group conversation about the goal (everyone having fun) would be good. Having this sort of open and honest conversation might tell you what your next steps should be.


Taku Ooka Nin wrote:

stuff...

(and about the Trench)We assume that the party helps with this in some fashion, or that it is possible because the DM says it is possible. Evidently, he just goes out and does it. The party is just a little safer, the adventure carries on even if it is the more ridiculous that it is somehow possible.

I think this line is very important who is the "We" that assumes here?

If it is you and the GM then the rest of the group is, i think, having a GM pet issue. It is often the case when the regular GM takes a breake and let his protege GM for a wile.
Sounds like you have GM fiat on your side. what level in warrior is it that you ditent need to remove and what level are you compared to the rest of the party?
I am aware that i may be totally wrong, and that the issue here may be that your friends are just incompetent. But i need more information before i can advice you if that is the case.


AbyssLord wrote:

This sounds a lot like the campaigns that my teenage/early twenties children play. Young gamers?

Maybe the werewolf aasimar has a super Bugs Bunny ability to dig trenches?

The party mostly consists of early 20s, I'm the outlayer at 28, and the Bard is 25. We helped to get it together, get everyone hyped about Pathfinder over 4.0 since we both hate 4.0 with a burning passion.

It would be awesome if that is what was the case with the bunny feet. lol

AbyssLord wrote:


I would be careful just blindly throwing grappling hooks out to see what the fishing line pulls back in. This reminds me of an incident where we were playing with a group that consisted of two paladins and one rogue. While the paladins were busy with evening prayers at the temple the rogue decided to question one of the city guards by using his grappling hook to pull the guard down from the city wall. The result was a loud ka-chunk sound followed by a splat on the cobblestones when he crit'd on the dice rolls. Hilarity ensued when the paladins returned from prayer time and the rogue had to explain that the group needed to leave town quickly without giving away that he just murdered one of the town guards.

I was thinking that whatever this was I should deal with it before someone decides to go investigate. I did call hello, I called for whatever it was to come out. If it was an animal it would have ran off at that point. The grappling hook was to see what it was.

AbyssLord wrote:


You may be going through some growing pains in the group where some of the players are just there to hang out and goof off while others are there to play a serious game.

This. This is mostly what I think it is. Yeah, we can goof off, we can screw around, but I love dark fantasy. I love the constant struggle of people, especially when they are on an island in the middle of nowhere 20 miles off the mainland, and entirely on their own. I love to get in character, call to the villain that he will fall by my hand, and be dramatic. The aloof fun is there, but that ends when I enter combat. I don't want my fellow players to die because I thought it would be funny to see if I could confuse the enemies with dancing lights when I could just go tear them apart.

AbyssLord wrote:


I'm seeing an aasimar werewolf, a dhampir, and a batman. There is a party size of 7. That's pretty big. Maybe the guy on the iPad is slightly bored with the fact that it takes an hour to perform one round of game-play before it gets back to his/her turn. Maybe he has a girlfriend on the other end that is much more interesting than anything that is going on in the game? Maybe the GM needs to institute my rule that there will be "no electronic distractions at the gaming table." My 22-year-old and 19-year-old son played in games that sounded like this. It always reminded me of this:

http://www.kraproom.com/pacman/aod/gallery/d/3451-1/GURPS.jpg

You are entirely correct about us having too many people. This is an ongoing issue that we are aware of. We already banned Laptops at the table, but everyone has smart-phones and Ipads, and they just whip them out regardless. The DM is powerless against it unless he just starts punishing people, and he doesn't want to start doing that.

AbyssLord wrote:


Maybe splitting the group into two groups so that those that want to play a different play-style can enjoy it more?

I am in the process of writing a campaign that takes place in Darkmoon Vale, it is more or less a Mega-adventure that goes from level 1 to level 15 and is open world.

AbyssLord wrote:


If everyone getting together really is the goal, then maybe you'll just have to find ways to enjoy being social despite the in-game problems.

This becomes a chore sometimes, mostly because 2 of the PCs sort of show up when they want to. 1 of the PCs, the cleric, shows up intermittently, and the Rogue who we call Batman--he speaks in the raspy voice and everything--essentially comes when his 4.0 group doesn't satisfy him, which while we were lead to believe would be once every blue moon has become every time since he "left".

The lak of stedfastnesse!

AbyssLord wrote:


I eventually caved to some of the tastes of the younger generation, but I still use the "Acceptance" rules presented in the Bestiary of Krynn Revised (by Margaret Weiss Productions) in traditional settings, but also have some non-traditional settings that we play in where the character races are acceptable.

GURPS can be awesome. I remember doing a post-apocalyptic Deadlands style game through that. Less Hell on Earth and more bandits everywhere.

AbyssLord wrote:


What should you do? That depends.

You probably need to have a conversation with your Game Master about what is fun for you and what is detracting from your fun. I wouldn't lobby for removing anyone from the game, but having some GM ground-rules and eventually a GM-led group conversation about the goal (everyone having fun) would be good. Having this sort of open and honest conversation might tell you what your next steps should be.

We don't really want to kick anyone out. I left feeling kind of pissed off because I felt like they just abandoned this character that I love. Not bitter, that isn't accurate, annoyed it more like it. In my moment of complete helplessness they ignore me and screw around.

/Shrug

When half of the table is like, "what the hell are you guys doing" and the other half seems to not care I start to get annoyed.

Cap. Darling wrote:
Taku Ooka Nin wrote:
stuff...

I think this line is very important who is the "We" that assumes here?

If it is you and the GM then the rest of the group is, i think, having a GM pet issue. It is often the case when the regular GM takes a break and let his protege GM for a wile.
Sounds like you have GM fiat on your side. what level in warrior is it that you did intent need to remove and what level are you compared to the rest of the party?
I am aware that i may be totally wrong, and that the issue here may be that your friends are just incompetent. But i need more information before i can advice you if that is the case.

We do XP in a system of if you show up you get XP.

In essence my build is
Warrior 1/Sorcerer 4/DD 0.
The lycanthrope template is +1 and we ruled to just use an NPC class because using the "young" template has unforeseen consequences as someone on the forums pointed out.

If someone dies and makes a new char they come in at the level of the lowest person, which is currently 3.
We have
Me
Summoner 5,
Bard 4
Cleric 4
Rogue 4
Rogue 3
Sorcerer (necromancer) 3.

Me, the Summoner, and the Bard show up every time, the only reason the bard is 1 level lower is due to him dying and bringing in a new character. At the time the lowest person was one level below. I have given no advice on how XP is given.

By "we" I assume that everyone assumes it just happens somehow or that the werewolf is out there digging it and succeeds. It isn't specifically to benefit me, but to protect the party. It is a fun game of reinforcing whatever structure we are using to sleep in, and then making it hard for enemies to attack us while we sleep. I suppose it is a little game of chess between me and the DM, and he always jokes about how it almost always turns against me in some fashion.

I was considering dropping my levels (1) in warrior to drop my BaB and HP down a little, but the DM just doesn't want that. Mostly because the effective combat characters are: Silastrix and the Summoner (Baron Nimish Baron-Baron and his Eidolon "Maid.")

If the group was instead
Warrior 1/Sorcerer 4
Summoner 5,
Bard 4
Cleric 4
Magus 4
Barbarian 3
Sorcerer (necromancer) 3.

We'd just mow through things because the Magus and the Barbarian would be killing everything. The people playing rogues complain to me about how being a rogue sort of sucks, how they are only effective when they have flanking, and how they are vulnerable. If I were DMing, I'd just let them reroll to different classes to try out things until they find a character class that they like, but so far they haven't asked the DM if they can do that.
I remember back in the initial stages of my D&D 3.5 career playing classes that I hated and then not being allowed to try other things out. It sucks. The Rogues sort of know they are dead-weight, and I think that is why one just screws around on his IPAD all the time.


Taku Ooka Nin wrote:

So here is my problem:

My party essentially stood around and watched me almost die to four assassin vines. The only two people who were even remotely attempting to help me were the Summoner and the Bard.

Precursor:
Every time we are camping for the night I dig a 10-ft deep trench around our camp so we will get some early warning and a buffer from mindless enemies attacking our fortified position.

There's too much blame being tossed around.

The first thing I would do is stop digging the trench. Many PCs (such as heavily-armored clerics) cannot easily bypass the trench. And if you could easily bypass it, so could many enemies. Use Alarm spells instead.

I found low walls to be hilariously overpowered in Warhammer 40K. (So many "barbarians" who couldn't climb 3-foot high walls. We just mowed them down. Worse, only one or two barbarians could get over at a time, so focus fire for the win!) The skill system in 40K starts by making everyone incompetent. In Pathfinder, by contrast, skills that you're good at, you're good at, but skills that you're not trained in (such as clerics with Jump) you're not good at. Pathfinder PCs are even more incompetent than Warhammer 40K PCs for things they're not trained in. Take that into account when developing tactics that assume basic mechanical competence on the parts of other PCs.

I don't know how PC templates work in Pathfinder exactly, but I wonder if your own CMB and CMD scores are low due to your template. (Such a PC in 3rd Edition would be paying a lot of class levels, so a lot of BAB, and probably Strength boosts would not "fill in the gap".)

Quote:

My position in the group:

In my Second Darkness campaign I am playing a Aasimar werewolf fighter/sorcerer/DD, and I am essentially the Tank/Offensive caster due to my DR and caster level. I am a switch-hitting character who doesn't wear armor. My DR10/silver protects me from most of the damage.

The battle went like this:
There was rustling outside our camp in the forest, I threw in my grappling hook with the summoner's eidolon hanging out with me. The hook grabbed onto something so we pulled it out. Assassin vines!--four of them!

I was grappled on the first round, pinned on the second, and thrashed around on all subsequent rounds.
The summoner's eidolon helped fight them, and he proceeded to continue cooking. When his eidolon died he started summoning to help in the fight.
The bard ineffectively shot his bow at them. Not much he could do.
The Cleric decided to jump the five foot wide trench and fail, so she spent the entire fight in the trench.
The Dhampir necromancer spent the entire fight trying to help the cleric out of the trench.
The first Rogue spent most of the fight hiding, and then after I fell unconscious he ran up to get knocking out from an AOO.
The second rogue was on his IPAD so we just started skipping him.

So, here is where I am at: What is my character to think of this?
The priorities of most of the characters is obviously in the wrong place, seeing how I spent most of the fight having him yell stuff like, "Help me you idiots," while the other PCs just spent their time arguing with each other instead of helping me.

I wonder about the summoner. That's a class that I don't understand very well. My understanding is you cannot both summon and have an eidolon at the same time, but the summoner is able to cast buffing spells. (Perhaps they didn't wade into combat because they were afraid of falling into the pit!?)

The bard needs a lesson in tactics. Doesn't Inspire Courage work on summons and eidolons?

The necromancer looked like they were trying to help, although they're better at casting than physical actions such as pulling someone out of a pit. (If you had gotten stuck in a pit, you would appreciate a rescue too!) It looks like your own PC is the only "strong person" in the group.

The first rogue seems like a coward. I used to have a player who always played that way in my group, and recently booted them from my campaign. (That wasn't the main reason.)

The second rogue isn't interested, and your group size is already pretty large. I'd talk to the DM about removing them.

You know these players, so you should know if these are persistent problems. Does the bard's players use terrible tactics in your campaign? The necromancer?

Quote:
My idea is that he only cares about the Summoner and Bard, but at the same time there is one very apparent problem: I am the tank and the primary damage caster. I keep them from dying, I stand in the way and help get them to safety, and if I stop protecting key people they are going to most likely get killed.

The other players might be prejudiced against you. You seem like you're stealing the show, although it's a bit hard to believe when you have two primary casters and a summoner in the group. At present you're both the blaster and tank, and the latter is only possible because of your template.

In another post you mentioned you were the only person to take advantage of the 7-page template document, but it seems like the other players just wanted to play simpler characters. Another player playing something "ridiculous", "overpowered", "broken" and what have you can generate resentment to players who have no intention of using such options.

Dark Archive

Natural born werewolf with DR 10/silver should be at least +2 ECL, just going by the 3.5 rules.

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Victor Zajic wrote:
Natural born werewolf with DR 10/silver should be at least +2 ECL, just going by the 3.5 rules.

Pathfinder characters are more powerful than 3.5 characters by a large margin, at least until you start implementing the 3.5 content that was game breaking by insane margins, E.G. Book of the Nine Swords, and therefore the ECL system doesn't even apply anymore.

The CR of a level X adventurer with PC gold and PC levels is X, or, a level 2 PC is CR 2.
One of the recommendations when I was researching werewolves was how to balance is. Should I take the young template to balance it out? The answer was a unanimous NO since that would only benefit me. In the end it became take an NPC level.

Here is why:
If I had a level in fighter I'd be using the Unbreakable archetype, which would equate to I get Endurance and Diehard for free, or to put it differently, I have an extra 18hp to be able to act during albeit at a penalty. This is huge, even if the DR10/silver is better. In a few levels when the humanoids we fight are all going to have +2 weapons at some point anyway my DR doesn't matter since +2 bypasses it.

Playing monstrous characters in Pathfinder is very different to playing monstrous characters in 3.5. Things are calculated differently, and lets face it: The ECL system was trash.

If people were going to be upset or prejudiced against my character I think it would have been earlier when I was essentially invulnerable at level 1 or level 2 in Riddle Port during the fight book.
It has been 9 weeks, if they are waiting this long to get upset then they are doing it wrong since we are getting to the levels where things are actually dangerous to me. Every caster at this CR has basic spells that will go through all of my Aasimar and Dragon Resistances elemental resistances (Fire, Acid, Cold, Electricity 5) and they tend to do enough damage to hurt me on average (11+ per hit) so if they are upset then they are doing it wrong.

I am asking the DM if the PCs who were playing the rogues if they can rebuild to different characters since they were complaining about how rogues, compared to the 4.0 variants, don't seem to be doing anything.

I am thinking of encouraging Shocking Grasp Magus of doom, and 2handed fighter or Barbarian.
So the man who could power Chicago by himself, and the Hulk.
If not the magus, I'd advise a switch-hit ranger.


Quote:
I am playing a Aasimar werewolf fighter/sorcerer/DD

How did you get so many other levels when many PCs are only 3rd-level? I don't think you can even take one level of Dragon Disciple as a 5th-level PC, and that's without an enforced level of an NPC class. (The rank system changed somewhat, making it hard for me to figure out exactly what level you need to be, but you needed to be at least 5th-level to take this in 3.x.)

Maybe the PCs aren't prejudiced, as they didn't demonstrate it earlier, but they might think a PC with damage reduction 10 against multiple weak attackers that aren't using silver weapons wasn't in serious trouble. This was on top of the tactical and mechanical incompetence.

Shadow Lodge

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This has to be a troll. I wouldn't just sit by, I'd actively try to kill this character, then inform the OP to create a more modest and appropriate PC that doesn't sound like a showboat.


Dragon Disciple requires 5 ranks in Knowledge: Arcana. That means you have to have 5 levels before taking the prestige class.

From reading the later posts it looks like that is his objective, to become a dragon disciple.

It sounds like Taku Ooka Nin is more invested in the game than half the group. I would also suspect that having such a powerful PC does have something to do with taking combat seriously. Maybe not.


I've been in parties like that before! Was always a player problem I felt like. I usually left those gaming groups because I just got bothered by the lack of care from others. Didn't feel like a group activity because they weren't always participating and it felt worse that they were willing to let my character suffer and die because apathy. That's.. not the best advice though. You might want to talk to the players or GM about your concerns at some point and be like "Hey, that was rough for me as a person" or however you want to phrase it. Communication! It does things. How your character takes it is really up to you, since your the only one who can really define who he is.

Taku Ooka Nin wrote:
Victor Zajic wrote:
Natural born werewolf with DR 10/silver should be at least +2 ECL, just going by the 3.5 rules.
Pathfinder characters are more powerful than 3.5 characters by a large margin, at least until you start implementing the 3.5 content that was game breaking by insane margins, E.G. Book of the Nine Swords, and therefore the ECL system doesn't even apply anymore.

Umm... Book of Nine Swords was one of the most balanced actually.


Maybe the other players are tired of one pc having all the showtime with his DR 10 / silver?

And by the way: If you are really Neutral good you would help even bad people.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

yeah... it sounds to me like a combination of factors. your PC is clearly the strongest in the party. that may lead to a feeling that you should be able to handle it yourself, or that others shouldn't risk their lives when you're just gonna handle it yourself anyways. add to that the fact that one PC already got trapped in the pit (that you 'dug') and its not real surprising that people weren't lining up to take their chances leaping the pit in case you needed help for once.

i know you don't feel like there's any kind of GM favoritism going on but here are two things to consider: a lot of people commenting here (myself included) think it sounds like maybe there is and you're too much a part of it to realize, so maybe reconsider that; secondly, when characters routinely get overshadowed (like sounds to be the case) they can start to feel like its not worthwhile to try too hard or care too much...

potential fixes (and i can't guarantee any of these): make everyone else werewolves- that'll help equalize the power levels; work out a new xp system that doesn't cause people to fall behind for not being there- it creates gulfs in party power level and isn't fun for the people who have conflicts (missing out on hanging out/playing should already be its own punishment); when you suggest ways for the group to move forward, try to think about methods for overcoming a problem that will allow someone else to shine for a change- like having the rogues scout ahead, or the bard using social skills to bypass a problem; there's a new playtest starting tomorrow (10 new base classes), you could talk to the GM about offering the players to make new characters (at or above their current level) to playtest new classes- that way people dissatisfied with their choices (or who have felt overshadowed) have an opportunity to switch, the separation in power level can be addressed, and you could offer to help them make their new characters (which could help erase any possible resentment, unless you do it in a condescending way, and you could help make sure they're capable enough to not get overshadowed).


MrSin wrote:
Umm... Book of Nine Swords was one of the most balanced actually.

Yes, this is why every single 3.5 group I have ever played with has banned that book among many others.

Granted, I've only had one experience where someone played the barbarian class from Book of the Nine Swords and then proceeded to be completely broken with it, but then again this was the guy who had practically every single 3.5 book and all of the dragon magazines.
He, that single guy and his, completely broken make everyone else in the party moot, characters made me resent 3.5.
Horray for pathfinder.

nate lange wrote:

potential fixes (and i can't guarantee any of these): make everyone else werewolves- that'll help equalize the power levels;

I wouldn't be against this in any way, shape, or form.

nate lange wrote:

work out a new xp system that doesn't cause people to fall behind for not being there- it creates gulfs in party power level and isn't fun for the people who have conflicts (missing out on hanging out/playing should already be its own punishment);

I told the DM I wasn't going to make suggestions of the XP system or how he runs things, I am mostly there to play and be the Rule Naz--lawyer to make sure everything is working how it is supposed to in the mechanical sense.

nate lange wrote:

when you suggest ways for the group to move forward, try to think about methods for overcoming a problem that will allow someone else to shine for a change- like having the rogues scout ahead, or the bard using social skills to bypass a problem;

I actually already do this. The problem comes in that it is:

Something happens! The PCs must do something! Everyone looks at me for orders. I come up with plan, explain it to everyone, ask if they like it. They all agree, we execute plan for better or worse. I've tried acting like I was thinking for 10 minutes or going to the bathroom and nothing happens.

nate lange wrote:

there's a new playtest starting tomorrow (10 new base classes), you could talk to the GM about offering the players to make new characters (at or above their current level) to playtest new classes- that way people dissatisfied with their choices (or who have felt overshadowed) have an opportunity to switch,

I love this idea.

nate lange wrote:
the separation in power level can be addressed, and you could offer to help them make their new characters (which could help erase any possible resentment, unless you do it in a condescending way, and you could help make sure they're capable enough to not get overshadowed).

Both of the Rogue players (Dwarf and Batman) were talking about how they don't feel like they do anything. Granted They ARE playing ROGUES, and if you look anywhere on here Rogues are notoriously bad when compared to the other damage classes.

I'm offering to build am Offensively inclined Magus (Shocking grasp build), and a Zen Archer since I hear they are powerful.
These two players should, in theory, go from feeling disempowered to feeling powerful.

As someone pointed out on the forums the traps in Pathfinder are essentially just "you take damage!" So, for the most part they are pretty crappy. It isn't like the good-old 2.0 days where a trap kills you. Our Bard is playing an Archaeologist so we don't even need the rogues.

Wycen wrote:

Dragon Disciple requires 5 ranks in Knowledge: Arcana. That means you have to have 5 levels before taking the prestige class.

From reading the later posts it looks like that is his objective, to become a dragon disciple.

It sounds like Taku Ooka Nin is more invested in the game than half the group. I would also suspect that having such a powerful PC does have something to do with taking combat seriously. Maybe not.

The goal is to finish Silastrix's storyline and see where it takes him. I plan out characters entirely, they are fleshed out to level 20, so I know what they will build into.

Varthanna wrote:
[ . . . ]I wouldn't just sit by, I'd actively try to kill this character, then inform the OP to create a more modest and appropriate PC that doesn't sound like a showboat.

In return I'd craft a character leagues beyond in brokenness, and all the while I'd be working on my next grand campaign, and when it was done if you were still giving me a hard time I'd convince the party one by one to join my campaign and then one day, they'd be coming to my game and not your's. :) <3

And--in my game any measure or feat of ridiculousness would fly because I'm a good enough DM to allow it to happen and run with it.

Shadow Lodge

This whole thread has to be one of the funniest I've ever read on these messageboards.


Avatar-1 wrote:
This whole thread has to be one of the funniest I've ever read on these messageboards.

I bounce back and forth between laughing at them, nodding in agreement, having an actual discussion with one of them, and plotting their imminent demise.

Either way,
You didn't see anything!


golem101 wrote:
Taku Ooka Nin wrote:

Precursor:

Every time we are camping for the night I dig a 10-ft deep trench around our camp so we will get some early warning and a buffer from mindless enemies attacking our fortified position.

Sorry but my brain kinda crashed into a brick wall and refused to read further after this.

You dig a 10 ft. deep (about 3 metres) trench every time you camp around a defensive area. Every time. 10 ft. deep.

Even with a gross approximation, how long is this trench? Do you accomplish this herculean feat alone? Do you have some kind of magic assistance in doing this?

Yeah, that blew my mind, too. How are you doing this?

But meanwhile, the guy with the iPad has got to go. He's just distracting dead weight. First thing I would do is talk to the GM about why that guy even has to be there.

Second thing I would do is ask for a discussion as to who is more into the game and who isn't. It sounds like not everybody there is as interested in the game as yourself and the GM.

I have found this is often true with large groups like yours, since there tend to be more distractions, more conversation, etc., and less "screen time" for each PC while stuff gets sorted out. Maybe it's just time to cut the fat and whittle things down to just four dedicated players.

Sovereign Court

Taku Ooka Nin wrote:


Precursor:
Every time we are camping for the night I dig a 10-ft deep trench around our camp so we will get some early warning and a buffer from mindless enemies attacking our fortified position.

I could not get past this. Are you using some type of magic? That would take an unbelievable amount of time otherwise.

Edit: Ninja'd but still how?


You know what's really bugging me about that trench? That's a lot of earth to displace.

Where are you putting all of it!? Do you just pile it up in the center of camp? You could build a small hill from something like that.

Liberty's Edge

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Its like Minecraft, he just throws it into a pool of lava off to the side.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

Am I The Only One? wrote:
You could build a small hill from something like that.

not really- it would actually be a fairly large hill! there's 7 PCs... even if you accept that each one only needs a single square for their gear and bedroll, plus a little space for cooking fire, etc., you're looking at a 15' square inside the trench (9 squares, and thats generous since it doesn't really leave enough space for a running start to jump the trench); that means you have to excavate 12 squares around, and two squares down- 24 5'x5' squares, that's enough to raise your entire campsite almost 15' above the starting height...

Scarab Sages

Clearly his bard has a Lyre of Building (one of my favorite magic items, although the description is criminally ambiguous)


Am I The Only One? wrote:

You know what's really bugging me about that trench? That's a lot of earth to displace.

Where are you putting all of it!? Do you just pile it up in the center of camp? You could build a small hill from something like that.

Well you can't have your trench without an accompanying fortress now can you?


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Taku Ooka Nin wrote:
The party wasn't helping me because they are idiots...

Not everyone in our out of character, is a tactical genius. If the other players are open to suggestion, you might try offering friendly suggestions for tactically sound options in combat. In the end the decisions must be their own, but there's nothing wrong with some friendly advice.

You should consider the fact that the cleric did in fact try to help your character. That he failed to make it over the pit was bad luck. It happens. People fail jump checks.

Also consider that, at that moment, helping the cleric out of the pit (which is what you say one rogue was trying to do,) is a tactically sound decision. The cleric would appear to be your group's only healer. Not only that, but clerics are sound offensive assets. Getting the cleric back into the game is not a bad idea at all. He may have gone about it incompetently, but the tactical decision was not a bad one.

So at most there are only a couple of your party members that may not have been as quick to jump to battle as one might like.

Has your character tried talking to his companions and telling them his concerns?

Quote:
I am thinking about not defending the party members who didn't help me, and just protecting the ones who tried to help me in the battle. I'll allow them to be in command of their own destinies, and help them if all is lost for them as maybe then they'll give a damn.

Even so, I would consider going into combat with individuals while letting them believe you are an ally, and then letting them die, to be Evil. You're essentially trying to get them killed.

If your character truly believes them to be incompetent to the point that they are endangering his life, the decent thing to do is for him to part ways with them and find other traveling companions. Not keep the ones he has until he can get them murdered.


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My biggest concern is the fact that a PC is digging a 10' deep trench in a ballpark 20' diameter. Which means you have a bit more than 60 linear feet of trench, call it 2' wide and 10' deep, a mere 1200 cubic feet of earth. Roughly 45 yards of hard, wet soil? That is two big dump trucks full of dirt.

You are doing this by hand, with medieval tools, and expecting to be able to get any rest? Holy crap. That is two days of digging, nothing else, digging and you would be exhausted.


I still find it funny that while the Incantrix and Abjurant Champion existed, when clerics used multiple nightsticks to make their buffs persistant.... people said Book of 9 swords was what was overpowered about 3.5.


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Bave wrote:
You are doing this by hand, with medieval tools, and expecting to be able to get any rest? Holy crap. That is two days of digging, nothing else, digging and you would be exhausted.

Well, to be fair he is part dog.


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Quote:

I'm offering to build am Offensively inclined Magus (Shocking grasp build), and a Zen Archer since I hear they are powerful.

These two players should, in theory, go from feeling disempowered to feeling powerful.

That's probably a bad way to go about it. These players all seem like they're new. Those are complicated classes (especially the magus), you're not letting them pick a new class (or helping redesign their rogues) and in a way it's rude. It's like saying "you don't know how to build a PC, I'll do it for you". It's much more polite to offer some help instead.

That you're a previous DM with the group: naturally they'll look to you to "order them around". You need to step back and let them decide things.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber
Scavion wrote:
An easy solution to your character being pinned would be to have one of the other character delay and attack when the enemy makes their grapple check. If you get hurt while making a CMB check you eat a a penalty equal to damage dealt. Which pretty much means you get freed heh!

That only works on the initial attempt.

"If you are hit by the target, you take the damage normally and apply that amount as a penalty to the attack roll to perform the maneuver."


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Pathfinder unfortunately lacks any digging rules that I'm able to find. In GURPS an average character would take ten hours worth of digging to make a single 5' square into a 10' square pit. So for a single character it would probable take 120 hours for you to prepare your campsite.

Mythic pit indeed.

As for the rest, my opinion is that you're too focused on your own character and it's skewing your viewpoint. Clearly one of the players is quite distractable with their Ipad, but I fail to see the advantage of dealing with such an out of game issue by taking it personally in character.

Otherwise your main resentment appears to be that the other PCs weren't paying enough attention to your character. Three of the other PCs leaped into action to help you, one of them failing their jump roll on that more literal leap into action (hardly their fault). Now you seem upset that one of the PCs tried to help the third leaving only two of them to focus on your character.

The only thing that seems at all a problem with the characters was the rogue who apparently did nothing, although this is only based on your description of the events. If this is the case, then perhaps their character might be cowardly and this could be worth discussing as a group or questioning the character about.

I'd suggest trying to take a more mature approach to interacting with the other PCs. Playing a character who perceives themselves as 'godlike' and is upset over not receiving attention, could be an interesting roleplaying challenge but it's poison to group dynamics.


Does anybody realise that the larger groups get, the less help they will give to someone in need. And that's because everyone expects his neighbor to start helping. That's an actual fact in First Aid, the bigger the crowd, the less help you will get. It is likely noone will help unless someone steps up and actually commands individuals to do something specific. Help me won't do a thing, but if you command a single individual to get some rope and bring it and another to guide traffic and a third to grab an umbrella and shield someone, they will al jump to it.
It's not even evil intent, just helplesnes and confusion.
I would look at this experience and conclude that this party is too big. It doesn't mean 7 player parties do not work but this one does seem disfunctional.
The only apparatus we have on the table are game related direktly and not for games while playing. So a pc or tablet with PcGen (or equivalent) is ok, as is a diceroller, but no gaming at the Pathfinder game. If I am a GM and someone pulls that stunt he either stops immediatly or I walk.
So it sounds like some boundaries need to be set and upheld (in my view).


Taku Ooka Nin wrote:

...I'm offering to build am Offensively inclined Magus (Shocking grasp build), and a Zen Archer since I hear they are powerful.

These two players should, in theory, go from feeling disempowered to feeling powerful....

I fail to see how you taking even more initiative from other players, will help the situation.

What you need to do is solve the situation in game. and let the new GM do the GM ing. He have a s$~$ty way of doing xp and that is why you and persumerbly the summoner is more powerfull than the rest of the team put togeather.
You can show him this thread but let him do the DMing.

Also remember that your PC is only the center of your story. the level 3 sorcerer that is in the group (2 levels and a template behind you?) is the main character in his story.

Also embrace failure that is alwasy great advide when a game is going differently than one expectet. Pehaps your Asimar/werewolf/soontobeDragon is not quite the hero he think and pehaps there was a cartoon moment when the others ditent really come to your rescue but what was there to do if you were getting your but handed to you?


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Taku Ooka Nin wrote:

So here is my problem:

My party essentially stood around and watched me almost die to four assassin vines. The only two people who were even remotely attempting to help me were the Summoner and the Bard.
...
people I'm thinking Silastrix still likes:...

Okay first sorry you are experiencing such frustration.

My thoughts.

There are many reasons this lack of engagement could be occurring and a few things I'd try.

First ask everyone how they feel about the game:
What's working?
What needs fixing?
What do they want more of?
What do they want less of?

Next, it's appears you have a character that is a major player both in terms of story and power level. Is everyone else on the same footing?

Finally after the above is addressed your group may need to compromise and come to a common agreement as to what kind of game they want. Then I'd worry about actual tactics and perhaps running simulations just to get people (whoever actually wants to play the game) in the same frame of mind.

Others: the trench? Maybe the GM fiat is a Dig or Move Earth Spell in a use-activated custom wondrous item.


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Well my advice would be sit down as a group and talk like the adults about what you all want out of the game. Secondly make a character that isn't vastly more powerful than the rest of the party, what you have created seriously sounds like something a 15 year old would do. You could have easily added wolf like attributes to your character by roleplaying and description alone without having make your character overpower the rest of the party.

From what you have said your group consists of people who want an immersive role playing experience, along side people who want to play a game with their buddies. Both of which are fine but they rarely work together in the long run.

Also I'm guessing you have never had to dig before, because as people above me have pointed the party would be ready to move at first light well before you had got any useful progress done.


Pathfinder Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Scavion wrote:
An easy solution to your character being pinned would be to have one of the other character delay and attack when the enemy makes their grapple check. If you get hurt while making a CMB check you eat a a penalty equal to damage dealt. Which pretty much means you get freed heh!

First, they would ready an action, not delay. Delaying can't interrupt someone else's turn. Second, readying an action to strike someone as they make their grapple check will NOT penalize their check. Insofar as I can tell, the RAW only says that in regards to attacks of opportunity, not other kinds of attacks.


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MrSin wrote:
Bave wrote:
You are doing this by hand, with medieval tools, and expecting to be able to get any rest? Holy crap. That is two days of digging, nothing else, digging and you would be exhausted.
Well, to be fair he is part dog.

I can't stop laughing at this comment.

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