Almost dying due to incompetence, what should I do?


Advice

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Timebomb wrote:

I could see the mental analysis going as so:

Summoner: tried to help, actually helped
Bard: tried to help , kinda helped
Cleric: tried to help, failed at helping
First Rouge: unknown if tired to help (what did you expect from a rouge?)
Second Rouge: Really good sleeper
Necromancer: did not try to help.

The only one I would say actively didn't help you was the necromancer, the first rouge maybe too. The cleric and second rouge could easily just be incompetent.

I would say that the rogue on the iPad was not helping. The necromancer may have tried his best at helping. He is trying to get the healer up from a 10 foot trench. He may have believed that the cleric was needed as healing requires touch, and the OP seem to have been taking some serious damage.


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Bruunwald wrote:
MrSin wrote:
Bave wrote:
You are doing this by hand, with medieval tools, and expecting to be able to get any rest? Holy crap. That is two days of digging, nothing else, digging and you would be exhausted.
Well, to be fair he is part dog.
I can't stop laughing at this comment.

Well, I'd rather be part dog than part MrSin. *tail wags*


Taku Ooka Nin wrote:

So here is my problem:

My party essentially stood around and watched me almost die to four assassin vines. The only two people who were even remotely attempting to help me were the Summoner and the Bard.

Precursor:
Every time we are camping for the night I dig a 10-ft deep trench around our camp so we will get some early warning and a buffer from mindless enemies attacking our fortified position.

My position in the group:
In my Second Darkness campaign I am playing a Aasimar werewolf fighter/sorcerer/DD, and I am essentially the Tank/Offensive caster due to my DR and caster level. I am a switch-hitting character who doesn't wear armor. My DR10/silver protects me from most of the damage.

The battle went like this:
There was rustling outside our camp in the forest, I threw in my grappling hook with the summoner's eidolon hanging out with me. The hook grabbed onto something so we pulled it out. Assassin vines!--four of them!

I was grappled on the first round, pinned on the second, and thrashed around on all subsequent rounds.
The summoner's eidolon helped fight them, and he proceeded to continue cooking. When his eidolon died he started summoning to help in the fight.
The bard ineffectively shot his bow at them. Not much he could do.
The Cleric decided to jump the five foot wide trench and fail, so she spent the entire fight in the trench.
The Dhampir necromancer spent the entire fight trying to help the cleric out of the trench.
The first Rogue spent most of the fight hiding, and then after I fell unconscious he ran up to get knocking out from an AOO.
The second rogue was on his IPAD so we just started skipping him.

So, here is where I am at: What is my character to think of this?
The priorities of most of the characters is obviously in the wrong place, seeing how I spent most of the fight having him yell stuff like, "Help me you idiots," while the other PCs just spent their time arguing with each other instead of helping me.

So,
people I'm thinking Silastrix still likes:...

Did they all light up their pipes while they watched?

Some parties cannot be trusted, so make sure they cop more damage than you. It is not in your interests to scout ahead for such people.

Shadow Lodge

Snowleopard wrote:
Does anybody realise that the larger groups get, the less help they will give to someone in need. And that's because everyone expects his neighbor to start helping.

.

Take two parties:

A. 4 players, iconic fighter/cleric/wizard/rogue
B. 7 players, mix of classes run by inexperienced players led by one showboat

-- What happens when the party is subjected to big AoE?

A. the rogue evades, the wizard was out of range, and the cleric and fighter eat the damage. The cleric later heals two people.

B. Five or six PCs take damage, stretching "dabbler" healing to the limit and threatening multiple character deaths if the battle drags on.

-- AoE makes large parties more dangerous to be in rather than safer. In a home game, the GM adjusts to, instead of just killing the party, bringing in tailored enemies who engage the showboat.

;...which is even worse once the other players realize they're nothing but wallpaper. And that's pretty much the impression I have as to the OP's situation.


Taku Ooka Nin wrote:

stuff...

The first Rogue spent most of the fight hiding, and then after I fell unconscious he ran up to get knocking out from an AOO.
and stuff...

Who ended the figth and killed the evil plants if you were out cold?


Cap. Darling wrote:
Taku Ooka Nin wrote:

stuff...

The first Rogue spent most of the fight hiding, and then after I fell unconscious he ran up to get knocking out from an AOO.
and stuff...
Who ended the figth and killed the evil plants if you were out cold?

The summoner and the bard helping.

After the Eidolon died, it killed one of the Assassin Vines, the summoner was all "I summon CELESTIAL EAGLES!"
Then the eagles summoned in and killed pretty much everything over the next two rounds.

The summoner is our killer in the party, mostly because he summons 1d3 monsters, then on the next round has them all full attack/use their abilities, dismiss them, summon in a new pack of 1d3 of the same monster to all do their full attacks. Most things do not survive.

I am built to mitigate damage and to be able to dish it out, the summoner is build to kill everything.

The two powerful characters in the party are
Silistrix the werewolf and Baron Nimish Baron-Baron the summoner.
I actually never managed to do any damage to the plants other than a single bite due to being pinned almost immediately at the fight's onset.

I like showboat characters, they have personality, if someone wants to play boring, cynical, and "there is no good in the world" fighter who is hard-boiled and boring then go right on ahead and be unoriginal. I will be building characters that would show up in romances of old, and who will be actively pushing the story forward.


Taku Ooka Nin wrote:
Cap. Darling wrote:
Taku Ooka Nin wrote:

stuff...

The first Rogue spent most of the fight hiding, and then after I fell unconscious he ran up to get knocking out from an AOO.
and stuff...
Who ended the figth and killed the evil plants if you were out cold?

The summoner and the bard helping.

After the Eidolon died, it killed one of the Assassin Vines, the summoner was all "I summon CELESTIAL EAGLES!"
Then the eagles summoned in and killed pretty much everything over the next two rounds.

The summoner is our killer in the party, mostly because he summons 1d3 monsters, then on the next round has them all full attack/use their abilities, dismiss them, summon in a new pack of 1d3 of the same monster to all do their full attacks. Most things do not survive.

I am built to mitigate damage and to be able to dish it out, the summoner is build to kill everything.

The two powerful characters in the party are
Silistrix the werewolf and Baron Nimish Baron-Baron the summoner.
I actually never managed to do any damage to the plants other than a single bite due to being pinned almost immediately at the fight's onset.

I like showboat characters, they have personality, if someone wants to play boring, cynical, and "there is no good in the world" fighter who is hard-boiled and boring then go right on ahead and be unoriginal. I will be building characters that would show up in romances of old, and who will be actively pushing the story forward.

assuming he was summoning 4 celestrial eagles and noboby stop him in doing the full attack dismiss summon full attack trick allowing him 2 standart actions pr round(dismissing a spell is a standart action) it will according to my math still only kill one assasin vine pr round after the first. This sís assuming that the eagles get to flank but not smite neutral plants. So some of the others must have done somthing?

And how long did it take the Vines to take you out with DR 10 you must have held out quite some time?
But any way what was a dude like the level 3 sorcerer with a necromantic bend going to do when some of the group jump in like you did?
Also the problem with Players that state that they want drive the story forward is that they often also assume that the way they persive at forward is the only way.
Edit: and remember to tell us how it turns out for the group and your celestrial Werewolf.


Wait...so your character digs a ten foot deep trench around the perimeter of your campsite every night? Seriously? Ten feet is...a lot of feet.


Cap. Darling wrote:

assuming he was summoning 4 celestrial eagles and noboby stop him in doing the full attack dismiss summon full attack trick allowing him 2 standart actions pr round(dismissing a spell is a standart action) it will according to my math still only kill one assasin vine pr round after the first. This sís assuming that the eagles get to flank but not smite neutral plants. So some of the others must have done somthing?

And how long did it take the Vines to take you out with DR 10 you must have held out quite some time?
But any way what was a dude like the level 3 sorcerer with a necromantic bend going to do when some of the group jump in like you did?
Also the problem with Players that state that they want drive the story forward is that they often also assume that the way they persive at forward is the only way.
Edit: and remember to tell us how it turns out for the group and your celestrial Werewolf.

Silastrix held out for about 5 rounds with 4 assassin vines beating on him.

Round 1: Ok, enemies appeared, they are attacking the Werewolf and the Maid. They got this! Round 1, I move to provoke AOO so I can burning hands, get grappled so I just bite. Eidolon attacks. Bard attacks after looking through his spells--he has nothing good VS these things--so he whips out the bow.

Round 2: Silastrix gets pinned. Maid full attacks, but is taking a beating. Bard shoots his bow. Rogue(Dwarf) hides, Rogue(Batman) shoots bow, Cleric falls in pit instead of grabbing the obvious bridge we built.

Round 3: All of the assassin vines still pounding on Silastrix and the Maid, maid dies after killing one of the Assassin Vines, Summoner hasn't gone yet and summons Eagals, eagles maul one of the assassin vines. Necromancer decides to tie himself up in bondage--as he described it--and help the female cleric out of the pit.

Round 4: 2nd vine dies to eagles, Rogue runs in, gets knocked out, eagles unsummoned, new eagles summoned in, all attack the 3rd assassin vine, bard fires arrows, Silastrix passes out from the damage.

Round 5: 3rd assassin vine dies to eagles, new patch of eagles summoned in to attack 4th assassin vine, assassin vine drags rogue and Silastrix under itself, bard kills it with last arrow.

It took forever.

Basically how it is it the Bard and the Summoner are quite happy with my leadership, the two Rogues are bored because they feel like dead-weight due to how they built themselves, they are markedly weaker than the Werewolf, the Summoner, and even the Bard.

The Melee shocking grasp magus and the Zen Archer are both characters I'm building with the players' current play-styles in mind, and I'm offering the character to them as them being the best that I can build. It is their choices to play them or not.

GypsyMischief wrote:
Wait...so your character digs a ten foot deep trench around the perimeter of your campsite every night? Seriously? Ten feet is...a lot of feet.

I assume Silastrix has a very powerful work ethic.

No one complains because it makes them feel safer, even if it would only save them from the Void Zombies.

It is nonsensical, silly, outrageous, and yet, at the same time, it somehow works.

Sovereign Court

Talk to the other players about your misgivings. Other than that, this thread makes my teeth hurt.


Sometimes the party is torn apart by assassin vines. No need to place blame, it went the way it went. Laugh and move on.


Taku Ooka Nin wrote:
Cap. Darling wrote:

assuming he was summoning 4 celestrial eagles and noboby stop him in doing the full attack dismiss summon full attack trick allowing him 2 standart actions pr round(dismissing a spell is a standart action) it will according to my math still only kill one assasin vine pr round after the first. This sís assuming that the eagles get to flank but not smite neutral plants. So some of the others must have done somthing?

And how long did it take the Vines to take you out with DR 10 you must have held out quite some time?
But any way what was a dude like the level 3 sorcerer with a necromantic bend going to do when some of the group jump in like you did?
Also the problem with Players that state that they want drive the story forward is that they often also assume that the way they persive at forward is the only way.
Edit: and remember to tell us how it turns out for the group and your celestrial Werewolf.

Silastrix held out for about 5 rounds with 4 assassin vines beating on him.

Round 1: Ok, enemies appeared, they are attacking the Werewolf and the Maid. They got this! Round 1, I move to provoke AOO so I can burning hands, get grappled so I just bite. Eidolon attacks. Bard attacks after looking through his spells--he has nothing good VS these things--so he whips out the bow.

Round 2: Silastrix gets pinned. Maid full attacks, but is taking a beating. Bard shoots his bow. Rogue(Dwarf) hides, Rogue(Batman) shoots bow, Cleric falls in pit instead of grabbing the obvious bridge we built.

Round 3: All of the assassin vines still pounding on Silastrix and the Maid, maid dies after killing one of the Assassin Vines, Summoner hasn't gone yet and summons Eagals, eagles maul one of the assassin vines. Necromancer decides to tie himself up in bondage--as he described it--and help the female cleric out of the pit.

Round 4: 2nd vine dies to eagles, Rogue runs in, gets knocked out, eagles unsummoned, new eagles summoned in, all attack the 3rd assassin vine, bard fires...

Thank you for a good discription of the figth.

Too me it looks like every body helped and no body was acting incompetent. With the grap and the entangle effect going in melee with this guys would have been incompetent by the rouges but one of them decides to take that chance, pehaps because his buddy the werewolf is in danger?
Casting burning hands would have been a waste but Silastrix ditent know that.
I think the wisest cause of action would have been to withdraw and pelt them with ranged attacks.(the ideal tactical solution you may call it)
Almost no matter what spells the necrodude have his best bet would be to get the cleric back in the battle.
I can not judge the clerics leaping over the trench but if there was a safe bridge without Evil veggies close by( they are big and have reach and entangle) then you may be rigth that was not the best call.
But i am stuck with my first impression still the most important tactical misjudgement was the grabbeling hook thing and not falling back and coordinating the assult.
So if you decide to look at it the way i presentet it. Your incompetence almost killed the dwarf and Silastrix may owe him a beer and an apology.

And about the other stuff enjoy that you have a powerfull character that you love to play. And lets hear how he ends up and how you fix it with your group:)


Taku Ooka Nin wrote:

So here is my problem:

...

It does - to me - sound like your actual problem are the players in a group. Especially the guy playing on his Ipad and the group taking it. Other than that, regardless of alignment, I would not imagine your character to be happy with those that did nothing to help.


Cap. Darling wrote:

Thank you for a good discription of the figth.

Too me it looks like every body helped and no body was acting incompetent. With the grap and the entangle effect going in melee with this guys would have been incompetent by the rouges but one of them decides to take that chance, pehaps because his buddy the werewolf is in danger?
Casting burning hands would have been a waste but Silastrix ditent know that.
I think the wisest cause of action would have been to withdraw and pelt them with ranged attacks.(the ideal tactical solution you may call it)
Almost no matter what spells the necrodude have his best bet would be to get the cleric back in the battle.
I can not judge the clerics leaping over the trench but if there was a safe bridge without Evil veggies close by( they are big and have reach and entangle) then you may be rigth that was not the best call.
But i am stuck with my first impression still the most important tactical misjudgement was the grabbeling hook thing and not falling back and coordinating the assult.
So if you decide to look at it the way i presentet it. Your incompetence almost killed the dwarf and Silastrix may owe him a beer and an apology.
And about the other stuff enjoy that you have a powerfull character that you love to play. And lets hear how he ends up and how you fix it with your group:)

That is more or less how I remember things, at this point it is hazy.

My way to fix things with the group is to get everyone invested, such has always been the solution even back to the early 7th Sea days.

I am probably saying that they did more than they actually did, since at this point my frustration and annoyance has dissipated. I kind of want assume they were doing more than I was noticing.

Either way, better the assassin vines attack me instead of the others.
If IPAD guy wants to play the char I made for him then he'd essentially be playing a Ashava worshiping Werewolf Witcher whose plot for joining the party boils down to "I hear there is a werewolf causing a ruckus Riddle Port--something about dragons."

Of course, he is allowed to make up any backstory he wants, that was my suggestion because it is easy, simple, plausible, and requires as little work as possible.

liondriel wrote:
Taku Ooka Nin wrote:

So here is my problem:

...
It does - to me - sound like your actual problem are the players in a group. Especially the guy playing on his Ipad and the group taking it. Other than that, regardless of alignment, I would not imagine your character to be happy with those that did nothing to help.

Well, I just finished working on a Magnamarian Aasimar werewolf--yeah, I like them for some reason--who spends his time essentially being a Witcher, silver swords and everything. Someone's got to keep those filthy Evil Jezelda worshiping werewolves out of Wolf's Ear.

I think IPAD guy's problem is that he feels meaningless, so lets give him meaning.
My advice to him on character personality was:
"Remember, you want his personality to be fun to play, someone who is a little incredulous while at the same time awesome.
Silastrix believes he is a Gold Dragon, yet to dragonkind he is a running joke. He is so caught up in his own delusions that while everyone has a problem believing that he really exists when they hear about him they are amused greatly by him if they ever meet him."

Silver Crusade

Remind me: why are the eagles being 'Un-summoned' each round, instead of staying and fighting until the duration runs out resulting in an ever increasing flock of eagles fighting for you?

Shadow Lodge

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Because 'A summoner cannot have more than one summon monster or gate spell active in this way at one time. If this ability is used again, any existing summon monster or gate immediately ends.'

Also, the summoner is incompetent. Note the thread title.


Taku Ooka Nin,

If there's a Pathfinder Society game day nearby, your group might benefit from playing some sessions there. Based on your story, it sounds like you might have some inexperienced players, players who don't see how their character contributes, players who are bored with their characters, and/or players who are stuck in a rut.

In PFS, coordinators put together parties on the fly and every scenario can have a different mix of characters. This helps players learn to be more adaptable and come up with ways each character can contribute. Groups are limited to 6, so you don't have as big a problem with people getting bored waiting for their turn or feeling like they don't contribute anything. Getting a chance to work with players outside the group might help the inexperienced players get a better handle on the game mechanics.

PFS scenarios are episodic, so you can change out characters each night. It give players a chance to try out new classes and character builds, and it definitely keeps them from getting stuck in a rut.

The main downside is that PFS is restricted to a subset of the rules, so you can't do the werewolf builds. But it's a great place to get some practice playing the game and some exposure to other play and GM styles. Best of all, it would give you a chance to move some of the "life lesson" moments out of the group dynamics, so your group doesn't end up resenting each other while you're trying to get the kinks worked out.


Gwen Smith wrote:
In PFS, coordinators put together parties on the fly and every scenario can have a different mix of characters. This helps players learn to be more adaptable and come up with ways each character can contribute. Groups are limited to 6, so you don't have as big a problem with people getting bored waiting for their turn or feeling like they don't contribute anything. Getting a chance to work with players outside the group might help the inexperienced players get a better handle on the game mechanics.

Funny enough, my PFS experience has been mostly a mess and I've run into a lot of players described like the ones in Taku's party, even at higher level play. PFS is kinda' like PUGging in an MMO, you never know who you'll get.

Silver Crusade

TOZ wrote:

Because 'A summoner cannot have more than one summon monster or gate spell active in this way at one time. If this ability is used again, any existing summon monster or gate immediately ends.'

Also, the summoner is incompetent. Note the thread title.

Thanks.

But, er, why bother to use a standard action to Un-summon when they go away automatically when you summon more?

And, if you already have the creatures you want, why summon replacements?

That seems quite a lot of incompetence....

Shadow Lodge

Exactly.


Malachi Silverclaw wrote:
TOZ wrote:

Because 'A summoner cannot have more than one summon monster or gate spell active in this way at one time. If this ability is used again, any existing summon monster or gate immediately ends.'

Also, the summoner is incompetent. Note the thread title.

Thanks.

But, er, why bother to use a standard action to Un-summon when they go away automatically when you summon more?

And, if you already have the creatures you want, why summon replacements?

That seems quite a lot of incompetence....

The GM allowed the summens to full attack and then the summoner summens new ones that also get to full attack. The inkompetence May be in the GM departement.


Quote:

Silastrix held out for about 5 rounds with 4 assassin vines beating on him.

Round 1: Ok, enemies appeared, they are attacking the Werewolf and the Maid. They got this! Round 1, I move to provoke AOO so I can burning hands, get grappled so I just bite. Eidolon attacks. Bard attacks after looking through his spells--he has nothing good VS these things--so he whips out the bow.

Sorry, who is the maid? The eidolon attacked, but was it already nearby, or did it have to jump over the trench?

Bards are sadly weak. Still, he should move near the trench and sing. :(

Quote:
Round 2: Silastrix gets pinned. Maid full attacks, but is taking a beating. Bard shoots his bow. Rogue(Dwarf) hides, Rogue(Batman) shoots bow, Cleric falls in pit instead of grabbing the obvious bridge we built.

Where was the bridge in relation to you and the maid? If it was on the other side of the camp...

The dwarf rogue was hiding and not helping out. I'm not a fan of cowardice. If a PC dies because another one is too scared to do something you have a problem.

Quote:
Round 3: All of the assassin vines still pounding on Silastrix and the Maid, maid dies after killing one of the Assassin Vines, Summoner hasn't gone yet and summons Eagals, eagles maul one of the assassin vines. Necromancer decides to tie himself up in bondage--as he described it--and help the female cleric out of the pit.

So far everytihng seems well.

Quote:

Round 4: 2nd vine dies to eagles, Rogue runs in, gets knocked out, eagles unsummoned, new eagles summoned in, all attack the 3rd assassin vine, bard fires arrows, Silastrix passes out from the damage.

Round 5: 3rd assassin vine dies to eagles, new patch of eagles summoned in to attack 4th assassin vine, assassin vine drags rogue and Silastrix under itself, bard kills it with last arrow.

It took forever.

Basically how it is it the Bard and the Summoner are quite happy with my leadership, the two Rogues are bored because they feel like dead-weight due to how they built themselves, they are markedly weaker than the Werewolf, the Summoner, and even the Bard.

Sheesh. From the sound of it, you and the summoner are the only PCs in the group capable of dealing with challenges, not surprising as you have twice as many levels as some of the less competent PCs.

This is a game with serious issues. The DM should put you all at the same level, drop silly rules like low-cost templates, 0 levels of prestige classes and NPC class levels for PCs, and allow rebuilds. Also toss out people who aren't actually interested in being in the game. (A couple of weeks ago I tossed a bad player out and I'm feeling very happy about it.)

Quote:
The Melee shocking grasp magus and the Zen Archer are both characters I'm building with the players' current play-styles in mind, and I'm offering the character to them as them being the best that I can build. It is their choices to play them or not.

This will backfire. You should offer advice, not dictate terms like that. It's like snarking at someone that their dress sense sucks and you just rented them a series of tuxes and a barber. Some people will take kindly to that... but most won't.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Malachi Silverclaw wrote:
TOZ wrote:

Because 'A summoner cannot have more than one summon monster or gate spell active in this way at one time. If this ability is used again, any existing summon monster or gate immediately ends.'

Also, the summoner is incompetent. Note the thread title.

Thanks.

But, er, why bother to use a standard action to Un-summon when they go away automatically when you summon more?

And, if you already have the creatures you want, why summon replacements...

Action economy.

Round 1:
Summoner summons Monster group #1 using his ability.
M#1 get full attack.
Round 2:
M#1 get full attack.
Summoner dismisses summons
Summoner summons Monster group #2.
M#2 get full attack.
Round 3:
M#2 get full attack.
Summoner dismisses summons
Summoner summons Monster group #3.
M#3 get full attack.
...rinse and repeat.

Basically you're getting another series of attacks.


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Cap. Darling wrote:
Malachi Silverclaw wrote:
TOZ wrote:

Because 'A summoner cannot have more than one summon monster or gate spell active in this way at one time. If this ability is used again, any existing summon monster or gate immediately ends.'

Also, the summoner is incompetent. Note the thread title.

Thanks.

But, er, why bother to use a standard action to Un-summon when they go away automatically when you summon more?

And, if you already have the creatures you want, why summon replacements?

That seems quite a lot of incompetence....

The GM allowed the summens to full attack and then the summoner summens new ones that also get to full attack. The inkompetence May be in the GM departement.

This is a game wherein an aasimar werewolf dragon disciple routinely digs a 10-foot-deep trench around a 20-foot-area before he hits the hay every night.

Details are probably not this GM's forte.

Shadow Lodge

3 people marked this as a favorite.
Kimera757 wrote:
This is a game with serious issues. The DM should put you all at the same level, drop silly rules like low-cost templates, 0 levels of prestige classes and NPC class levels for PCs, and allow rebuilds. Also toss out people who aren't actually interested in being in the game.

Who's to say the bored players are even the bad ones? How does your character have a even a slight chance to feel unique when there's an aasimar werewolf dragon in the party? How does this represent an immersive storytelling environment in the slightest?

Shadow Lodge

If you're bored and wanting to give the game a chance, you still don't get distracted by your tablet.

Shadow Lodge

Your retort rests on the premise they haven't already given the game a chance.

Per Showtime, this game has a GM problem.


Kimera757 wrote:


Bards are sadly weak. Still, he should move near the trench and sing. :(

Bards are not weak! And this bard we have been told is the Indiana Jones AT so he may move close to the trench and sing but that wont help at all.


MrSin wrote:
Gwen Smith wrote:
In PFS, coordinators put together parties on the fly and every scenario can have a different mix of characters. This helps players learn to be more adaptable and come up with ways each character can contribute. Groups are limited to 6, so you don't have as big a problem with people getting bored waiting for their turn or feeling like they don't contribute anything. Getting a chance to work with players outside the group might help the inexperienced players get a better handle on the game mechanics.
Funny enough, my PFS experience has been mostly a mess and I've run into a lot of players described like the ones in Taku's party, even at higher level play. PFS is kinda' like PUGging in an MMO, you never know who you'll get.

That's part of my point. It sounded like some of the players had fallen into a "Oh, the big fighter guy will handle it" rut, and you can't do that in PFS. Because there might not be a big fighter guy in the party this time around. You learn to adapt, or you die.

Silver Crusade

Rerednaw wrote:
Malachi Silverclaw wrote:
TOZ wrote:

Because 'A summoner cannot have more than one summon monster or gate spell active in this way at one time. If this ability is used again, any existing summon monster or gate immediately ends.'

Also, the summoner is incompetent. Note the thread title.

Thanks.

But, er, why bother to use a standard action to Un-summon when they go away automatically when you summon more?

And, if you already have the creatures you want, why summon replacements...

Action economy.

Round 1:
Summoner summons Monster group #1 using his ability.
M#1 get full attack.
Round 2:
M#1 get full attack.
Summoner dismisses summons
Summoner summons Monster group #2.
M#2 get full attack.
Round 3:
M#2 get full attack.
Summoner dismisses summons
Summoner summons Monster group #3.
M#3 get full attack.
...rinse and repeat.

Basically you're getting another series of attacks.

Ah! I get it now! Summoners have a summon SLA, and can use it as a standard action, rather than the one round casting time of the spell. This allows them to wait until the summoned creatures have attacked, then summon a new lot which attack immediately.

Still doesn't need an action to Un-summon though.

BTW, this is one of the many reasons why I think the class is broken. It can't have been intended that summoners do this, given that they extended the duration from rounds to minutes. Along with ridiculous Eidolons, 2nd level haste, synthesist/master summoners, etc., this summon cycling takes the biscuit!


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So you are an Aasimar werewolf fighter/sorcerer/DD who digs a 10' deep pit around your camp every night? You are bringing this Monty Hall character into a campaign that a new GM is attempting to run? It being a new GM might explain why he has allowed some nonsense, like digging a mote around the camp every night, but as a veteran GM you should know better. I think I might get my IPOD out as well, and wait for that ridiculous character creation to die.


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This game has more than 1 problem. The GM is a big one, but there are a LOT of contributing factors. Rock star characters are why the others are bored. The player flat out ignoring the game needs to be directly addressed by the GM.

Assuming your entire party is incompetent is a personal out of game issue in this case. They can't help until they know what's going on, don't encourage metagaming since they're at the same table. The cleric tried to help. The bard helped. The summoner helped. The necromancer DID try to help. Maybe not help YOU PERSONALLY, but he was involved trying to get the healer into action. The first rogue hid. Maybe he was wondering why the incompetent werewolf fighter/sorcerer/DD Tank/Offensive caster is throwing a grappling hook into the woods outside the perimeter and getting attacked by s$%~. The issue of the last one has already been mentioned.

The rogues ARE less competent because... you're 1 and 2 levels above them with super optimized builds, that based on your offer to help are probably pulled right off of these forums. They made builds to have fun, and are stuck several levels behind the group facing encounters several levels ahead of the group. Of course they aren't enjoying themselves. and if you're being brought down in your awesomeness, how could they expect to survive the fight?

Look at things from the opposite side before you judge. This entire group has a lot of work to do to become functional.


Gwen Smith wrote:
MrSin wrote:
Gwen Smith wrote:
In PFS, coordinators put together parties on the fly and every scenario can have a different mix of characters. This helps players learn to be more adaptable and come up with ways each character can contribute. Groups are limited to 6, so you don't have as big a problem with people getting bored waiting for their turn or feeling like they don't contribute anything. Getting a chance to work with players outside the group might help the inexperienced players get a better handle on the game mechanics.
Funny enough, my PFS experience has been mostly a mess and I've run into a lot of players described like the ones in Taku's party, even at higher level play. PFS is kinda' like PUGging in an MMO, you never know who you'll get.
That's part of my point. It sounded like some of the players had fallen into a "Oh, the big fighter guy will handle it" rut, and you can't do that in PFS. Because there might not be a big fighter guy in the party this time around. You learn to adapt, or you die.

My point was that those guys still show up and survive beyond level 7. One guy who showed up at the locals did several sessions with me and he didn't do anything. not one skill check, not one point of damage, nothing! There were times he didn't even attack in combat, he just said "you look like you've got it" and decided not to do a thing. Your experience may vary.


Taow wrote:
[ . . . ]They made builds to have fun, and are stuck several levels behind the group facing encounters several levels ahead of the group. Of course they aren't enjoying themselves.[ . . . ]

Quite the opposite, I'm afraid.

Both rogues, Batman (IPAD guy) and the Dwarf, are 4.0 players who have joined us for quite a while. Their builds are not to have fun, they are last-minute builds that they thought would be good. The Rogue class in 4.0 is very good at getting in close and pumping out damage. The Pathfinder rogue...not so much unless it is a ranger and can use the improved invisibility thing and has pounce, then everything just dies.
The Dwarf in our last campaign loved his character because he was just a big-dumb 2-handed fighter who smashed things with 1d12+13 attacks, and he misses that. I don't want him to just get into the habit of only playing Lord Two-Hander the Great, so I want to allow him to try out a different build that I haven't tried out yet.

Yes, I am lifting the Zen Archer build directly off the forums.
Do I care that he will be playing a character that is Mechanically awesome so the only thing he has to do is come up with a personality and run with it? Hell no.
Do I care that his character WILL surpass my character in power as we level up? Hell no.
It is like when someone plays any class in any MMO, they come up with the personality and the character as they play, and they don't need to worry about the underlying mechanics because they are already optimized. It is easy, it is show up and have fun. What is the point of Pathfinder, the mechanics of the roleplay?

Malachi Silverclaw wrote:
BTW, this is one of the many reasons why I think the class is broken. It can't have been intended that summoners do this, given that they extended the duration from rounds to minutes. Along with ridiculous Eidolons, 2nd level haste, synthesist/master summoners, etc., this summon cycling takes the biscuit!

The summoner is actually the very first person to die in the campaign. Two rogues sneaked up on him and Stabbeh stabbeh, down goes the gnomish summoner.

The only summoner that is particularly overpowered is the Synthesist, but by virtue of losing action economy the synthesist has its own weakness. The only time it is really completely broken is when there is only a 1-level dip in summoner to get the eidolon body, get reach on the claws or something, and then go for using mass touch spells.

Also, Anti-Magic Field stops the summons from coming in, as would dimentional anchor.

Nightfiend wrote:
I think I might get my IPOD out as well, and wait for that ridiculous character creation to die.

So it would be come a race for if the DM decides to kill the PC who is contributing or to repeatedly kill the PC who is sitting on an IPAD and not contributing?

Haha, hahaha, Bwahahaha!
Good one, Good one. Do you even lift, bro?

Alternatively, anyone could play a Gunslinger . . . .
*waits for the inevitable gunslinger flame war*


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Taku Ooka Nin wrote:
Cap. Darling wrote:
Taku Ooka Nin wrote:

stuff...

The first Rogue spent most of the fight hiding, and then after I fell unconscious he ran up to get knocking out from an AOO.
and stuff...
Who ended the figth and killed the evil plants if you were out cold?

The summoner and the bard helping.

After the Eidolon died, it killed one of the Assassin Vines, the summoner was all "I summon CELESTIAL EAGLES!"
Then the eagles summoned in and killed pretty much everything over the next two rounds.

The summoner is our killer in the party, mostly because he summons 1d3 monsters, then on the next round has them all full attack/use their abilities, dismiss them, summon in a new pack of 1d3 of the same monster to all do their full attacks. Most things do not survive.

I am built to mitigate damage and to be able to dish it out, the summoner is build to kill everything.

The two powerful characters in the party are
Silistrix the werewolf and Baron Nimish Baron-Baron the summoner.
I actually never managed to do any damage to the plants other than a single bite due to being pinned almost immediately at the fight's onset.

I like showboat characters, they have personality, if someone wants to play boring, cynical, and "there is no good in the world" fighter who is hard-boiled and boring then go right on ahead and be unoriginal. I will be building characters that would show up in romances of old, and who will be actively pushing the story forward.

Am I the only person cracking up at a character named Baron Nimish Baron-Baron the summoner? He's such a baron he's named thrice! THRICE I tells ya.


Taku Ooka Nin wrote:
Taow wrote:
[ . . . ]They made builds to have fun, and are stuck several levels behind the group facing encounters several levels ahead of the group. Of course they aren't enjoying themselves.[ . . . ]

Quite the opposite, I'm afraid.

Both rogues, Batman (IPAD guy) and the Dwarf, are 4.0 players who have joined us for quite a while. Their builds are not to have fun, they are last-minute builds that they thought would be good. The Rogue class in 4.0 is very good at getting in close and pumping out damage. The Pathfinder rogue...not so much unless it is a ranger and can use the improved invisibility thing and has pounce, then everything just dies.
The Dwarf in our last campaign loved his character because he was just a big-dumb 2-handed fighter who smashed things with 1d12+13 attacks, and he misses that. I don't want him to just get into the habit of only playing Lord Two-Hander the Great, so I want to allow him to try out a different build that I haven't tried out yet.

Yes, I am lifting the Zen Archer build directly off the forums.
Do I care that he will be playing a character that is Mechanically awesome so the only thing he has to do is come up with a personality and run with it? Hell no.
Do I care that his character WILL surpass my character in power as we level up? Hell no.
It is like when someone plays any class in any MMO, they come up with the personality and the character as they play, and they don't need to worry about the underlying mechanics because they are already optimized. It is easy, it is show up and have fun. What is the point of Pathfinder, the mechanics of the roleplay?

Malachi Silverclaw wrote:
BTW, this is one of the many reasons why I think the class is broken. It can't have been intended that summoners do this, given that they extended the duration from rounds to minutes. Along with ridiculous Eidolons, 2nd level haste, synthesist/master summoners, etc., this summon cycling takes the biscuit!
The summoner is actually the very first person to...

Ha... ha... Just recently someone was saying almighty spellcasters cannot be killed by dreadfully inferior rogues. I was saying that a summoner sitting back and sending stuff in can be killed very quickly by rogues, but oh how it was rejected. A summoner out of formation and not protected from shanking is really vulnerable.


DM Under The Bridge wrote:
Ha... ha... Just recently someone was saying almighty spellcasters cannot be killed by dreadfully inferior rogues. I was saying that a summoner sitting back and sending stuff in can be killed very quickly by rogues, but oh how it was rejected. A summoner out of formation and not protected from shanking is really vulnerable.

What does this have to do with what was said?

Shadow Lodge

Taku Ooka Nin wrote:

The Rogue class in 4.0 is very good at getting in close and pumping out damage. The Pathfinder rogue...not so much

<...snip...>
The summoner is actually the very first person to die in the campaign. Two rogues sneaked up on him and Stabbeh stabbeh

<strenuously resisting temptation to hijack thread into a third active Rogues-suck-no-they-don't-yes-they-do-no-you're-stupid-yes-you-are-but-what -am-I? thread>

<toss!>

...7

<consult bonus to see if I made it>

What was the DC again?


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Grond wrote:


Am I the only person cracking up at a character named Baron Nimish Baron-Baron the summoner? He's such a baron he's named thrice! THRICE I tells ya.

Oh, no... EVERYTHING about this game is tickling me.

My latest most fave part are the two rogues called "Batman and the Dwarf." It sounds like a band name. In fact, I think I've been to a Batman and the Dwarf concert.


Bruunwald wrote:
Grond wrote:


Am I the only person cracking up at a character named Baron Nimish Baron-Baron the summoner? He's such a baron he's named thrice! THRICE I tells ya.

Oh, no... EVERYTHING about this game is tickling me.

My latest most fave part are the two rogues called "Batman and the Dwarf." It sounds like a band name. In fact, I think I've been to a Batman and the Dwarf concert.

Our games are laced with comedy and humor.

The eccentric Baron Nimish Baron-Baron who is on a life-quest to...I forget.
The Cleric of Sarenrae who wants to open a church in Riddle Port.
The Draconic Werewolf who wants to one day find Astarathian again, and have him acknowledge him as a true dragon.
The Archaeologist Bard who...I'm not sure.
The rogues who...uh...don't know.
The Necromantic Sorcerer who one day plans to....

Our Bard actually wants to change to a Witch, Cleric, Oracle, or something else so he can be the group healer since the Cleric is evidently having a 2-week hiatus. We are all taking next week, thanksgiving, off.

Its ok, though, we don't really need her, that is what wands of infernal healing are for.

For the people who were wondering, Batman loves the idea of the character I built for him.
We both came to the conclusion that he is a magnimarian witcher, and that batman is his informant.
If the other rogue wants to play the Zen Archer build then he'd probably be the Witcher's hunting companion for simplicity's sake. Plus it would be Chaotic Good walking around with Lawful something.
"The Rules!"
<<SCREW THE RULES, I HAVE DAMAGE REDUCTION!>>


Grond wrote:


Am I the only person cracking up at a character named Baron Nimish Baron-Baron the summoner? He's such a baron he's named thrice! THRICE I tells ya.

I like it. A gnome with an inflatet sense of sel importance.


Talk to the DM about the problem--away from the other players. If they're all good as people, they'll appreciate the conversation. Identify what you see as the problems, and then talk through solutions.

Getting new characters to replace the rogues would make a big difference. Make them 4th level. Get the players to make them if they're keen; otherwise you can.

Your XP system is broken. It reinforces disadvantages. Recently I was playing a campaign where one character (necromantic cleric) was one level higher (5th) than the rest of us, and it was pretty easy to feel useless. I was feeling excited about "Web"; he had zombie manticores at his command. You need to address this if you want the other players to actively engage.

A major tweak would be bringing everyone up to the same level, or at least bringing the 3rds up to 4th. 1 level is a big difference; 2 levels is a different league.

A minor tweak would see you increasing the amount of experience the lower level characters get even further. Another fix would be to have the higher level characters drop out of play for a while.

The werewolfaasimardragondisciple and Baron-Baron could temporarily disappear (imprisoned? abducted?) and you and the other player take up lower level characters for a while and let the other characters star while they catch up. Perhaps you two could take over the rogues while their players' new characters bed in?

As an aside, revenge is not a Good thing. Whether by action or neglect, if your character deliberately causes a character to die, they should be moving towards evil rapidly. Given the fixation on being a gold dragon, the character is more likely to react the other way.

Oh. Give up digging the trench. It's unrealistic. Doing something you know to be unrealistic is bad RP.


Taku Ooka Nin wrote:
Bruunwald wrote:
Grond wrote:


Am I the only person cracking up at a character named Baron Nimish Baron-Baron the summoner? He's such a baron he's named thrice! THRICE I tells ya.

Oh, no... EVERYTHING about this game is tickling me.

My latest most fave part are the two rogues called "Batman and the Dwarf." It sounds like a band name. In fact, I think I've been to a Batman and the Dwarf concert.

Our games are laced with comedy and humor.

The eccentric Baron Nimish Baron-Baron who is on a life-quest to...I forget.
The Cleric of Sarenrae who wants to open a church in Riddle Port.
The Draconic Werewolf who wants to one day find Astarathian again, and have him acknowledge him as a true dragon.
The Archaeologist Bard who...I'm not sure.
The rogues who...uh...don't know.
The Necromantic Sorcerer who one day plans to....

Our Bard actually wants to change to a Witch, Cleric, Oracle, or something else so he can be the group healer since the Cleric is evidently having a 2-week hiatus. We are all taking next week, thanksgiving, off.

Its ok, though, we don't really need her, that is what wands of infernal healing are for.

For the people who were wondering, Batman loves the idea of the character I built for him.
We both came to the conclusion that he is a magnimarian witcher, and that batman is his informant.
If the other rogue wants to play the Zen Archer build then he'd probably be the Witcher's hunting companion for simplicity's sake. Plus it would be Chaotic Good walking around with Lawful something.
"The Rules!"
<<SCREW THE RULES, I HAVE DAMAGE REDUCTION!>>

Good that it looks line you guys are solving it. I know you have promised the GM not to interfere in the xp part of GMing. But suggest him to look at the rules for training xp up to the level of the group form ultimate campaign. And find out what the other PCs want with there life so the AsimarwerewolfsoontobeDragon sound less selfcenteret.

And good luck, tell us the sequel after the hollidays.


MrSin wrote:
DM Under The Bridge wrote:
Ha... ha... Just recently someone was saying almighty spellcasters cannot be killed by dreadfully inferior rogues. I was saying that a summoner sitting back and sending stuff in can be killed very quickly by rogues, but oh how it was rejected. A summoner out of formation and not protected from shanking is really vulnerable.
What does this have to do with what was said?

"The summoner is actually the very first person to die in the campaign. Two rogues sneaked up on him and Stabbeh stabbeh, down goes the gnomish summoner."

Read what Taku said.


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DM Under The Bridge wrote:
MrSin wrote:
DM Under The Bridge wrote:
Ha... ha... Just recently someone was saying almighty spellcasters cannot be killed by dreadfully inferior rogues. I was saying that a summoner sitting back and sending stuff in can be killed very quickly by rogues, but oh how it was rejected. A summoner out of formation and not protected from shanking is really vulnerable.
What does this have to do with what was said?

"The summoner is actually the very first person to die in the campaign. Two rogues sneaked up on him and Stabbeh stabbeh, down goes the gnomish summoner."

Read what Taku said.

Nice for you that "someone" was proven wrong. But what you Said is still not relevant. :)

Silver Crusade

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The OP wrote:
We are all taking next week, thanksgiving, off.

Er, given what you've told us in this thread, what the heck are you thankful for? : )

Oh. 'Turkey'. Right.


Cap. Darling wrote:
DM Under The Bridge wrote:
MrSin wrote:
DM Under The Bridge wrote:
Ha... ha... Just recently someone was saying almighty spellcasters cannot be killed by dreadfully inferior rogues. I was saying that a summoner sitting back and sending stuff in can be killed very quickly by rogues, but oh how it was rejected. A summoner out of formation and not protected from shanking is really vulnerable.
What does this have to do with what was said?

"The summoner is actually the very first person to die in the campaign. Two rogues sneaked up on him and Stabbeh stabbeh, down goes the gnomish summoner."

Read what Taku said.

Nice for you that "someone" was proven wrong. But what you Said is still not relevant. :)

Nope, it is still relevant. Taku is the first poster and started this thread, I have been responding to the added detail (here concerning the ganking of a summoner). You can argue if you want, a thousand posts of denial, but MrSin asked how was what I said relevant, when I was simply responding to part of Taku's story.

Incompetence and player death, I think the problem is rushing in or not thinking before declaring actions. Some dungeons or groups of foes can really wipe the floor with a party that just strolls in confident they will be okay, or approach with no plan trusting in the dice.

Many spellcasters are also vulnerable to really simple ganking, but not as much as when they were d4 hit die. This may indicate incompetence, but I don't think it does by default.


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I would have a come to Jesus discussion with that ipad playing rogue. Either turn it off or gtfo type thing. That is completely disrespectful to the DM who has labored to produced the game for the players entertainment alone. We had some geek who used to read books during the game and not know a thing that was going on. Luckily he removed himself before I had to.

As for the party, I would in game growl "Ive given you fools my last blood. If this happens again, it is YOUR blood that will be spilled". Make a nice Intim roll and Nuff said.


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Malachi Silverclaw wrote:

Er, given what you've told us in this thread, what the heck are you thankful for? : )

Oh. 'Turkey'. Right.

Anyone who can't come up with at least three desserts they're thankful for before resorting to "turkey" is doing Thanksgiving wrong, IMO.

Sovereign Court

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*Slips on Jack Nicholson hat* This game needs an enema. *Takes off Jack Nicholson hat* I'd suggest a group meeting to sit around the table and do rebuilds with input from everyone on character creation. There is such special snowflake shenanigans going on, its disrupting the party dynamic. With the group knowing what everyone is capable of, it there will hopefully be more interaction. As for the IPAD/Electronics thing? If the GM banned them, stick by the ban. It's better to have no player than a bad player. That's what MMO's are for.

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