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I'm sure quite a few of you have heard of the "beastmass", a challenge where you pit a chracter against the strongest mosters of the first 3 beastiaries. I'm wondering if it's possible to perform a "greater beastmass" using the 3 most powerful creatures (highest CR) in the beastiary 4, which would include:
Cthulhu ( hp 774, AC 49, ability DCs between 45 & 40 (fortitude & will save)
Cernunos ( hp 663, AC 48, ability DCs around 32-39 (fortitude))
Pazuzu (hp 752, AC 48, ability DCs between 43 & 40 (fotitude & will mainly)
A few things unmentionned: most of these creatures are either immune to energy types, or resist 30 (except for force energy). They also pretty much all have DR 20/epic , immunity to ability damage, death effects, petrification, a lot of enchantment related stuff. Too much to list here.
I've seen a few builds (namely that goblin musquet master build & zen archer build that defeated the previous beastmass solo). I've been trying to build my own competitor with a magus. There is one BIG problem that I just cant manage to overcome: those darned ability DCs. At best, I'm able to get the chracter with MAYBE 30 on a save, if they are buffed with greater heroism. With one of the previously mentionned beastmass candidates, the best I saw was a will save of +30 (unbuffed).
So any ideas? We've got to remember the whole non-stacking limitation. So the best we've got is : otherworldly kimono (+4, +6 under power, resistance), pale green ioun stone (normal: competence, flawed: morale).
Those are the only stacking items I know, short of making something custom. Any ideas?
I can think of one way, but it depends.... Is craft construct allowed?
I'm assuming a single player character; summons would be allowed, but constructs would not (I think). Unless you built a character entirely around controlling constructs.
Remember that Bestiary 4 added creatures which are meant to be out of the reach of non-Mythic characters. If I remember correctly, CR25 was meant to be the pinnacle of what non-Mythics could handle (obviously expect some variation for player experience and tactics, those can always have an effect... just ask my Shattered Star party, who reliably curb stomp anything I don't buff straight to the Nine Hells).
Cthulhu, Cernunnos and Pazuzu are supposed to be taken on by Mythic characters.
So, keeping that in mind, what are the limitations on building your Beastmass contender? Are you able to use Mythic?
Are you using level 20 characters, and is this supposed to be one on one?
Yeah, mythic should be acceptable. I would suggest level 20 characters (like the other beastmass), with their full 10 ranks in mythic.
I'm interested in seeing if people can make some characters that can beat them one-on one, within offical paizo rules.
I can see teams (with uber-buffage) doing this quite well, but a single character has to deals with a lot more (being able to hit high, a NEED for high saves since the DC 40+ effects are sometimes continuous, and reliably give high damage FAST so as to kill them quickly).
Eventually, the other (CR-28) creatures could be added, like kaiju, lesser great old ones. I guess the priority would be Cthulhu one-on one. Eventually, it could include a structure similar to the original (7 strongest in beastiary 4 in 2 days). But before getting there we should see if anyone can create something that can beat the strongest, this is just theory-crafting after all.
One-on-one? Bah, I thought you wanted one-on-three. Now that would be a challenge :)
Dude, beat cthulhu and come back to see me; dont forget you cant just bring his HP to 0, you have to banish him too (which can get complicated). You can try 3 on one after.
I'll see what I can come up with when I get home from work tonight. Given that I don't normally try to optimise, I imagine I'm going to struggle to build something effective enough :P
I'll admit this is a challenge for me as well. I've been using mainly as an entertainement exercise (the characters I play I pretty un-optimizaed) but you can come up with some cool stuff when you try.
A mythic Archer Paladin could probably do it reliably. I'll start building.
His bonus damage from smiting puts him at 160 from his 7 attacks. 4BAB+1haste+2Mythic Rapid Shot with one shooting 2 arrows from manyshot.
Not sure how reliably he could hit. My Horizon Walker build would be able to hit reliably and do more than enough damage but has a problem with saves. The Paladin will likely make his saves easily and be able to fight a prolonged battle.
Note that Cthulu isn't immune to crits so hes actually alot easier than he looks.
Whats the pointbuy for this endeavor?
Edit: Is there a magic item that protects you against insanity? If so my Horizon Walker with mythic tiers *could* outrange the will save or die aura and shoot him to death lol.
What are the conditions for each fight? Starting distance from enemy, who has foreknowledge of the character, whats the terrain like, what order do we fight them in, are any of them getting a surprise round, etc.
Gonna need some more info.
I really cant say about conditions. From the beastmasses I've read of, you've got 0 rounds of preparation, average point buy, cant really say anything else. Havent managed to find a reliable description of the original beastmass.
I'm having trouble finding stats for Cthulhu. Does it have a pseudonym on d20pfsrd?
Ah, they might not have put cthulu up yet. Looks like I'll have to wait a while...
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Can I weild a fishing trawler? A properly constructed Cthulhu should be vulnerable to fishing vessels.
As CWheezy has posted, the original beast mass trial, created by porpetine is located there.
Well if 0 rounds of preparation are allowed, that pretty much rules out anything that casts spells. Back to the drawing board for me.
Well if 0 rounds of preparation are allowed, that pretty much rules out anything that casts spells. Back to the drawing board for me.I think in a separate thread, someone posted a sorc who does the beastmass trial just fine
The Vacuum was a huge frontrunner. Forced stupid high saves with mass suffocation spells. Diviner Wizard, auto first in initiative, and if he needed to could pop a time-stop to buff.
I think I can do it. I have an old build lying around.
The Vacuum was a huge frontrunner. Forced stupid high saves with mass suffocation spells. Diviner Wizard, auto first in initiative, and if he needed to could pop a time-stop to buff.Well if 0 rounds of preparation are allowed, that pretty much rules out anything that casts spells. Back to the drawing board for me.I think in a separate thread, someone posted a sorc who does the beastmass trial just fine
My build is a diviner. I just have to find it.
Daily Readying of Spells
Each day, sorcerers and bards must focus their minds on the task of casting their spells. A sorcerer or bard needs 8 hours of rest (just like a wizard), after which she spends 15 minutes concentrating. (A bard must sing, recite, or play an instrument of some kind while concentrating.) During this period, the sorcerer or bard readies her mind to cast her daily allotment of spells. Without such a period to refresh herself, the character does not regain the spell slots she used up the day before.
You need time to prepare your spell slots. I didn't see it outlined anywhere in the original post. For a challenge like this, the more specific we are, the better. (also just skimmed the threads on beastmass a few minutes ago, a few people there were using some precasted long duration buffs?)
Yes, I'm being nitpicky. The less assumptions, the better. The more defined of a challenge we make, the more legitimate the whole thing becomes.
Daily Readying of Spells
Each day, sorcerers and bards must focus their minds on the task of casting their spells. A sorcerer or bard needs 8 hours of rest (just like a wizard), after which she spends 15 minutes concentrating. (A bard must sing, recite, or play an instrument of some kind while concentrating.) During this period, the sorcerer or bard readies her mind to cast her daily allotment of spells. Without such a period to refresh herself, the character does not regain the spell slots she used up the day before.
You need time to prepare your spell slots. I didn't see it outlined anywhere in the original post. For a challenge like this, the more specific we are, the better. (also just skimmed the threads on beastmass a few minutes ago, a few people there were using some precasted long duration buffs?)
Yes, I'm being nitpicky. The less assumptions, the better. The more defined of a challenge we make, the more legitimate the whole thing becomes.
Some things are just common sense. That is like asking are you allowed to bring your spell components so you can actually cast the spells.
If someone says casters can show up, but they don't have spells to cast that is when you ignore them, and ask for someone that has an IQ above 10 to be an impartial judge for the event(s).
The guy said 0 rounds of preparation in one post then said crafting was allowed in another. Just asking for consistency and clarity (I would consider crafting preparation, is that just me?). Figured it would better if we hashed things out now instead of after we worked up a build.
Also, anybody want to spitball ideas on terrain/distance/surprise rounds on these three encounters? Or add monsters to the challenge? The original beastmass shows almost twice as many fights as this one.
Spaceball when people ask for prep time for these contest/fights they are referring to buffing rounds, not the spells they will get anyway.
Now I see what your point of confusion.
Mythic Johnny Bowman Fighter 20, Champion(M) 10
NG Huge Human
lnit +32;
Senses blind sense 30', darkvision 60', low-light vision, true seeing;
Perception +23
DEFENSE
AC 55 (+14 armor, +4 deflection, Dex +6, +1 dodge, +4 insight, +4 luck, +4 morale, +6 natural, +4 sacred, -2 size) Touch 35, Flat Footed 48
HP 394 (20d10+274)
Fort +51, Ref +43, +38 Will
DR 5/-, regeneration 5
OFFENSE
Speed 40', swim 60'
Ranged +5 Distance, Seeking Darkwood Composite Longbow (STR +22) +47/+47/+47/+47/+47/+47/+47 (4d6+77/19-20/x5) Manyshot on first two shots.
Space 15’, Reach 15’
Spell-Like Abilities (CL 22)
6/day – Touch of Rage
STATISTICS
STR 54, DEX 22, CON 28, INT 7, WIS 10, CHA 16
Base Atk +20, CMB +45, CMD 61
Feats: Arcane Strike, Cosmopolitan, Deadly Aim, Eldritch Heritage (Orc), Greater Weapon Focus (Longbow), Greater Weapon Specialization (Longbow), Improved Critical (Longbow), Improved Eldritch Heritage, Improved Initiative, Improved Precise Shot, Iron Will, Magical Aptitude, Manyshot, Point-Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot, Skill Focus (Survival), Toughness, Weapon Focus (Longbow), Weapon Specialization (Longbow), Deadly Aim (Mythic), Improved Critical (Mythic), Improved Eldritch Heritage (Mythic), Improved Initiative (Mythic), Manyshot (Mythic), Rapid Shot (Mythic), Weapon Focus (Mythic), Weapon Specialization (Mythic), Optimistic Gambler (T), Reactionary (T)
Special Abilities: Bravery +4, Armor Training, Armor Mastery, Weapon Training, Weapon Mastery, Hard to Kill, Amazing Initiative, Recuperation, Mythic Saves, Force of Will, Unstoppable, Immortal, Legendary Hero, Surge 1d12, Extra Mythic Feat, Extra Mythic Feat, Extra Mythic Feat, Limitless Range, Precision, Precision, Precision, Enhanced Ability, Mythic Sight, Mythic Sight
Gear: Belt of Physical Perfection +6, Boots of Speed, Bracers of Archery Greater, Cape of the Mounteback, Efficient Quiver, Gloves of Dueling, Headband of Alluring, Robe of Arcane Heritage, 4000 Arrows, Srcoll (3x Giant Form II), +4 DISMaL Ring of AC Boosting, +5 SIMPLR Ring of Save Boosting, +5 Mithril Full Plate
Permanent Spells: Giant Form II, Gravity Bow
Tactics- Autowin Initiative (Declare 20 for 52 after roll), Use Amazing Initiative to activate Touch of Rage, Swift to Active Arcane Strike, Full Attack (7 attacks, 9 arrows), Use surge ability to make at least one attack a critical hit, Avg 1183 hp damage. For Cthulhu, during time when it is reforming move out to 1000 ft and ready action to full attack while staggered after reforming.
Ok, wait for Cthulhu to reform and attack. It takes 2d6 rounds for it to reform, and is then staggered for 2d6 rounds.
I would tend to think that a "DISMaL" & "SIMPLR" ring is in the realms of cheese, and would disqualify the character (in my eyes anyway).
Good try though. I should write something more formal up when I have the time.
As for future attempts: try to stick to non-custom items.
Even without the items he still has a fair chance. The biggest problem then becomes the auras. He has the range on the bow (1100 ft in the first range increment) to attack from a safe distance. He will also always win initiative. The only question comes back to you as DM then williamoak, how do the two enter combat together? If they can roll for initiative while further away than 300' then Johnny Bowman still wins.
How are you using arcane strike? Doesn't that require you to have arcane casting?
The SLA he gets from Eldritch Heritage gives him a caster level and that qualifies him for Arcane Strike.
I honestly dont have much to say. You've clearly shown that a mythic character can be given ridiculous power, but I really dont have muhc more to say; I was just wondering if it was possible. If you check up on the original beastmass, most times the character was "surprised" by the monster in question (so no prep, no sneak) which can seriously limit some choice. However, I just wanted to see if it was possible, and clearly you have shown it is.
I'd be curious to see your decomposition for that range; it seems pretty ridiculous.
Composite Longbow 110', Distance Enhancement x2, Mythic Ability Limitless Range x5.
Well, this is a prime example of why I will never use mythic.
If a 10th teir mythic character has a reasonable chance at soloing Cthulhu et al. then I want nothing to do with it.
You can't apply the Distance enchantment twice to one weapon because enchantments only apply once and distance doesn't specifically say you can apply it twice. If you were allowed to do that, people would just stack corrosive to add 9d6 acid damage to the weapon's base damage.
Claxon, you do realize that in the source of the mythos, Cthulhu was himself a solo encounter? A non-mythic NPC one-shotted him all on his own with just a ship.
Distance provides a x2 bonus. It was only used once.
Well, this is a prime example of why I will never use mythic.
If a 10th teir mythic character has a reasonable chance at soloing Cthulhu et al. then I want nothing to do with it.
I'm inclined to agree. I had never looked at mythic before yesterday and I will say that some of the abilities were pretty staggering.
I'm inclined to agree. I had never looked at mythic before yesterday and I will say that some of the abilities were pretty staggering.Well, this is a prime example of why I will never use mythic.
If a 10th teir mythic character has a reasonable chance at soloing Cthulhu et al. then I want nothing to do with it.
Considering that non-Mythic characters can do similar things relative to non-Mythic monsters (scry and die tactics, AM BARBARIAN, archer Paladin smiting, etc.), I'm inclined to believe it made things no worse than they already were in high level play. Things break down with the system at that level.
Well, this is a prime example of why I will never use mythic.
If a 10th teir mythic character has a reasonable chance at soloing Cthulhu et al. then I want nothing to do with it.
to be fair, you're an eyeblink short of demigod at that point, and i'm surprised they didnt give him mythic tiers (unless they did and i fail forever).
Considering that non-Mythic characters can do similar things relative to non-Mythic monsters (scry and die tactics, AM BARBARIAN, archer Paladin smiting, etc.), I'm inclined to believe it made things no worse than they already were in high level play. Things break down with the system at that level.I'm inclined to agree. I had never looked at mythic before yesterday and I will say that some of the abilities were pretty staggering.Well, this is a prime example of why I will never use mythic.
If a 10th teir mythic character has a reasonable chance at soloing Cthulhu et al. then I want nothing to do with it.
honestly i love mythic. it finally gives melee characters some toys to play with that are as zany as the stuff casters normally get--sure, the mages get mythis stuff, but then when you can already shatter the cosmos beforehand, going up to eleven doesnt mean much.
mythic finally fulfills the mountain cleave rule.
Seems CAGM barb should be able to do it pretty easily. Saves shouldn't be a problem. Plus can take paths to just be immune to the auras. Actually not sure about that, if something is a fear and death effect and I'm immune to fear, would I still get staggered? Then pounce his face with base land speed of 210, surge and foe-bite his face off with your artifact weapon.
How is it you got Strength to hit on your bow? Its suppose to be based on dex.
Composite
Composite bows use Dex to hit and Strength for damage. He has his strength applying to hit.
Bow attack breaks down like this: BAB(+20), Touch of Rage(+11), Dex MOD(+6), Weapon Training(+4), Gloves of Dueling(+2), Bracers of Archery(+2), Weapon Focus(+1), Greater Weapon Focus(+1), Mythic Weapon Focus(+2), Enhancement Bonus(+5), Boots of Speed(+1), Deadly Aim(-6), Rapid Shot(-2)= +47
you wind up relying too heavily on touch of rage, and its a standard action. You get it for what a max of 5 rounds with opportunistic gambler?
I was going to say what monsters have the highest AC in order to auto succeed everything but a 1. Just because my archer would probably pump more into dex overall.