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Waitwaitwait... So you guys are telling me that there's a way for three PCs, who coordinate their abilities and work as an actual team instead of a collection of lone wolves, to be able to take down a single enemy?
OMG BORKEN!!!
What's next? A Rogue actually getting flank for all their sneak attacks because the PCs are coordinating their abilities and working as an actual team instead of all trying to be lone wolves?!
Teamwork OP!!!
I have nothing to add to this thread, thanks to these two posts.
Taking away enemy actions is one way for PCs to stay alive...
- litany of sloth to take away enemy AoO
- various Hold X spells
- ill omen, slow, ...
- monk's stunning fists
- witch's sleep hex
- daze cantrip
- sorcerer abilities mentionned above
it's part of the entire "live to see another day" strategy.
Now of course, if as a DM you want a game of "do-damage and heal-damage" then you should bann everything that does more then just heal/damage.
(But I wouldn't play in your games then)
Preventing damage is just as valid as healing for a strategy... and actually more efficient/safer. I fail to see why PCs need to have a high-HP sponge and a make-sponge-whole-again in their party just so the DM feels like he is challenging the players...
It's not challenging to try to outheal a dragon's damage! It's bloody boring!
Outwitting and outsmarting a dragon's tactics: that is fun.
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You know, if the only way to challenge creatures physically superior to humanoid creatures is to be a better HP sponge and to have someone empty the sponge before it gets full, then I can't imagine what ancient humans did here on Earth.
It's not like Humans came into the power we had by using our brains to invent tools and tricks to hunt creatures far more powerful than humans are.
Nah, see, we just walk up to the lions and let him maul us, because we can take it. In the meantime, we all gang up on the lion and beat it down while one person takes the lions wrath.
Yeah...
That's how they did it...
[/sarcasm]
Like many things in this game, there are simple and easily available counters for a GM against this tactic.
1: This ability relies on touch attacks. If the PC's can't land a touch attack on your BBEG, then the tactic is not very useful. Make your big ugly with a high touch AC, or the ability to out maneuver the party in some way.
2: The tactic also relies on vulnerability to magical sleep. Elves, Half Elves, Undead, Constructs, Dragons, Oozes, and Plants are all immune to magical sleep. Immunity to Staggered is a bit more rare, but not unheard of.
As a GM, I'd let a Gentle Resting party pull it off a few times, and let them feel clever. But if they begin abusing it, then the enemies will start to learn. A proper BBEG knows the tactics of the people gunning for them. They will most certainly start sending Minions resistant to the party, and be looking for way to resist it themselves.
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So, dip 1 level of cleric, then go monk. Take:
Gentle Rest
Domain Strike
Medusa's Wrath
Full Attack.
Then you can apply Gentle Rest as a swift action if you hit with an unarmed strike, and you get two extra swings with Medusa's wrath.
Would work pretty well with a Sensei monk, then you can be 100% wisdom. Since the domain power is 3+wis and doesn't care about level, this seems pretty boss.
And TBH, I am not sure that Domain strike even expends the daily usage of the power when you use it this way.... I would rule that it does though either way, because if it doesn't, revelation strike becomes supremely OP.
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Definitely overpowered. No save, no HD limit? If it had either of those it'd be fine, and still very useful. Without those... it's just silly.
One cleric, with quicken spell-like ability, could put down
One cleric, with quicken spell-like ability, could put down** spoiler omitted ** on the first round with a single touch. By that point, PCs are likely 17th-18th level, so beating an ** spoiler omitted ** isn't all that difficult. Granted, still need to get to him to touch... but if you can, game over man, game over! lol.
Why on earth is that CR ~17 BBEG standing all by himself, with no contingency plans nor access to "Freedom of Movement", a lowly level 4 spell?
This spell enables you or a creature you touch to move and attack normally for the duration of the spell
Daze, stagger, stun, paralyze, ...? not doing anything!
As for sleep: witches can do this from level 1 (Slumber Hex) too and good luck with the saving throw, you'll fail. And since that Hex is SU (read supernatural) Spell Resistance does NOT apply...
I've already driven our DM insane by targeting his high-levelmonsters with some cute witch (su) hexes... and with enough knowledge I know which one is the monster's low save: fort or will.
Actually there are only 3 (SP) witch hexes... neither of these will ever require me to roll vs SR (a summon, a dream thingy and woodland stride; still puzzled why woodland stride is SP for the witch???)
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A Will save is better than nothing at all, and the Witch hex also has the 'once per creature per 24 hours' limitation. If you make your save, they can't try again. Heck, even if you need a natural 20, that's still a 5% better chance you'll negate the effect then what this ability has (IE: no way to prevent it).
Sure, a spell can prevent the first part, but it does nothing against the sleep. Two clerics with this ability (or one with quicken) just needs two melee touch attacks, then bam, done.
As for other enemies, sure, that's going to be a hassle no matter what effect you use. You can't use the excuse of "there will be other enemies" or "you need to touch" as a valid reason that this ability is fine, those are arguments that can be made against a *ton* of abilities. What you need to do is compare and contrast this one against other 1st-level abilities.
To make this comparable to other, similar, abilities, I highly recommend to negate the sleep part (stagger is still crazy powerful as is) or implement a save or HD limitation.
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Honestly this ability - and a couple other no-save staggered effects like frigid touch and suffocation - seem a little excessive in my experience. They aren't that powerful at level one, but by the time beings start receiving additional attacks they become just obnoxious.
Precisely. Imagine you're a 19th-level fighter about to go up....
Choice A: Fighter 20th, for Weapon Mastery capstone class ability.
Choice B: Cleric 1 (repose domain).
...With A, your chances to crit go up. Not bad, as a few more lesser iteratives will now confirm.
...With B, the heck with crits! Anything you touch is hopelessly screwed, losing probably >75% of its melee capacity, if not more, making the encounter a cake-walk. If the enemy is within full-attack range of any other PC and goes next in initiative, it is absolutely the best thing to do.
-- Then you realize you could have been doing this from the level where you first begin facing creatures with multiple attacks.
Conceptually I don't like the idea of such a low level power shutting down high level abilities (multiple attacks) without a save. I'd probably tack a save onto both effects (will, DC 10 + 1/2 level + Cha).
Yup. Compare it to a ranger's 20th level capstone ability of forcing that exact-parameter save-or-suck (DC10+half+WIS) once per day per favored enemy type as a standard action.
So, dip 1 level of cleric, then go monk. Take:
Gentle Rest
Domain Strike
Medusa's WrathFull Attack.
Then you can apply Gentle Rest as a swift action if you hit with an unarmed strike, and you get two extra swings with Medusa's wrath.Would work pretty well with a Sensei monk, then you can be 100% wisdom. Since the domain power is 3+wis and doesn't care about level, this seems pretty boss.
And TBH, I am not sure that Domain strike even expends the daily usage of the power when you use it this way.... I would rule that it does though either way, because if it doesn't, revelation strike becomes supremely OP.
It would be useful, but against many enemies (especially at higher levels) it would be meaningless as your caster level is 1 so you cannot beat their spell resistance.
As i listed in the core monsters CR 15-20 above, every single one had a SR in the high 20's or low 30's.
Choice A: Fighter 20th, for Weapon Mastery capstone class ability.
Choice B: Cleric 1 (repose domain)....With A, your chances to crit go up. Not bad, as a few more lesser iteratives will now confirm.
...With B, the heck with crits! Anything you touch is hopelessly screwed, losing probably >75% of its melee capacity, if not more, making the encounter a cake-walk. If the enemy is within full-attack range of any other PC and goes next in initiative, it is absolutely the best thing to do.
A, you gain about 20-30% DPR with many builds.
B, you gain the ability to ~6 times per day as a standard action have a low low chance to remove an action from an enemy of faaaar lower CR than your level.
As said, of the bestiary 1 monsters, any enemy of CR 15+ is immune to you using that attack. If you somehow got your spell penetration check up to +7 (say you're an elf fighter and also spend two feats on it), you'll have a 10% chance against the weakest of them.
I mean, claiming this is overpowered to dip at high levels sounds like reaaally bad theorycrafting from people who don't play much at higher levels.
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The fact that you can come up with more powerful options at higher levels and/or actual ways to avoid the effect is irrelevant.
A 1st lvl domain power should be compared to 1st lvl domain powers and nothing else. I'm sure that you can find something reasonable amongst those domain powers but I'd like to see a domain power that can rival Gentle Repose in offensive power.
its actually not that great, for most games. i mean yes its powerful, but you wont really see it used in most games to full effect. that seems like more of a very late game (levels 10+) before it would be used to full effect.
i honestly would be more annoyed by a debuffing hexcrafter magus, or wizard then a cleric with this ability.
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A Will save is better than nothing at all, and the Witch hex also has the 'once per creature per 24 hours' limitation. If you make your save, they can't try again. Heck, even if you need a natural 20, that's still a 5% better chance you'll negate the effect then what this ability has (IE: no way to prevent it).
Except, you know, for the absolutely identical 5% chance of rolling a 1 on the touch attack, causeing it to miss and the attack be wasted.
Really guys, this ability just isn't that useful in actual play. It does next to nothing before level 6, and after that, there are often better things a spellcaster can do besides use up their action to prevent a full attack, like, for example, cast spells. Even with Quicken trick to get sleep, that's a trick you can pull off 3/day, if both attacks hit (likely), and the enemy isn't immune to sleep or mind-affecting stuff(gets less likely as levels increase). The 8th level ability to become immune to death effects and energy drain is much nicer in most games.
Misfortune+sleep hex is way way worse than this.
Btw, highly amused by the guy who tells us that a CR20 BBEG could totally be taken out with this if he just stood there and let it happen with no minions or defenses up. Yeah, just like my lv1 barb can totally kill a great wyrm red if it's sleeping and I CdG it with a scythe(8d4+52=72 dmg-DR=~DC67 fort save or die). Preposterous situation is preposterous.
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A Will save is better than nothing at all, and the Witch hex also has the 'once per creature per 24 hours' limitation. If you make your save, they can't try again. Heck, even if you need a natural 20, that's still a 5% better chance you'll negate the effect then what this ability has (IE: no way to prevent it).Except, you know, for the absolutely identical 5% chance of rolling a 1 on the touch attack, causeing it to miss and the attack be wasted.
Really guys, this ability just isn't that useful in actual play. It does next to nothing before level 6, and after that, there are often better things a spellcaster can do besides use up their action to prevent a full attack, like, for example, cast spells. Even with Quicken trick to get sleep, that's a trick you can pull off 3/day, if both attacks hit (likely), and the enemy isn't immune to sleep or mind-affecting stuff(gets less likely as levels increase). The 8th level ability to become immune to death effects and energy drain is much nicer in most games.
Misfortune+sleep hex is way way worse than this.
Btw, highly amused by the guy who tells us that a CR20 BBEG could totally be taken out with this if he just stood there and let it happen with no minions or defenses up. Yeah, just like my lv1 barb can totally kill a great wyrm red if it's sleeping and I CdG it with a scythe(8d4+52=72 dmg-DR=~DC67 fort save or die). Preposterous situation is preposterous.
although very antagonistic... i do agree that this ability is a little overrated and underpowered in contrast to other abilities/spells/combos in the game.
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I'd like to see a domain power that can rival Gentle Repose in offensive power.
This one's probably more abusable:
"Vision of Madness (Sp): You can give a creature a vision of madness as a melee touch attack. Choose one of the following: attack rolls, saving throws, or skill checks. The target receives a bonus to the chosen rolls equal to 1/2 your cleric level (minimum +1) and a penalty to the other two types of rolls equal to 1/2 your cleric level (minimum –1). This effect fades after 3 rounds. You can use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + your Wisdom modifier."
At level 20, you can touch an enemy to give them -10 to attack and -10 to all saves (and +10 to all skills) for three rounds with a single touch. I'd say that's worse than being staggered. It's not so effective at low levels, but neither is Gentle Repose.
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Yeah, my apologies for the confrontational tone. It's just that I'm currently playing an inquisitor with the Repose domain in a Carrion Crown game and as of 13th level I almost never use the level 1 power. So as I read this thread my incredulity rose to levels where some snark came out. My bad.
Yeah, my apologies for the confrontational tone. It's just that I'm currently playing an inquisitor with the Repose domain in a Carrion Crown game and as of 13th level I almost never use the level 1 power. So as I read this thread my incredulity rose to levels where some snark came out. My bad.
You're going to get the most use out of it if you can convince your teammates to work with you. If you've got a druid, magus, sorcerer, or wizard on the team for example you might coordinate with them to use your domain power after they cast a frigid touch spell.
Or, as an Inquisitor yourself you might be interested in the Dictum spell (basically the lawful version of Holy Word), which you'll get in 3 levels (unless you're chaotic). Since it only staggers on things that are at least 1 hd lower than your caster level it's not likely that you could combine it with your domain power to take out huge or monstrous targets (at least not in most cases), but there are a few exceptions to that. Any BBEG of a 0HD race that also has a template (half fiends, for example) is likely to be of a lower hd than their CR would suggest. Pair your abilities wisely and on round one you can stagger that tough half-fiend antipaladin, then put them to sleep on round 2, giving your main melee fighter (who would have closed the gap by that point) a quick and easy coup-de-grace.
...Other than that, just use your abilities wisely. A single large, difficult enemy that's relying on full attacks to kill you and your party might be worth sacrificing your turns to limit its power while your allies whittle it down.
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Yeah, my apologies for the confrontational tone. It's just that I'm currently playing an inquisitor with the Repose domain in a Carrion Crown game and as of 13th level I almost never use the level 1 power. So as I read this thread my incredulity rose to levels where some snark came out. My bad.
As an aside, Carrion Crown is probably the AP where this ability would be weakest, what with all the undead. The whole auto-sleep thing isn't an issue for them. Though the staggering could be nice, since it lasts longer on undead. Then again, most high-level undead are scary due to their special abilities, not their ability to take full attacks. A vampire only level drains once per round, after all, and a staggered lich is still pretty damn dangerous. So I guess it's a wash.
Yeah, my apologies for the confrontational tone. It's just that I'm currently playing an inquisitor with the Repose domain in a Carrion Crown game and as of 13th level I almost never use the level 1 power. So as I read this thread my incredulity rose to levels where some snark came out. My bad.As an aside, Carrion Crown is probably the AP where this ability would be weakest, what with all the undead. The whole auto-sleep thing isn't an issue for them. Though the staggering could be nice, since it lasts longer on undead. Then again, most high-level undead are scary due to their special abilities, not their ability to take full attacks. A vampire only level drains once per round, after all, and a staggered lich is still pretty damn dangerous. So I guess it's a wash.
Ignoring the 'sleep' effect... Stagger is a powerful ability IF you're facing a martial-focused opponent who attacks multiple times a turn and they're significantly more powerful than you. In most other cases it's a waste of your turn.
If they're roughly equal or inferior to you, you're better off just killing them by some other means, rather than sacrificing your entire turn to reduce the power of theirs. It's good against a solo boss, but weak against a mob of regular opponents.|
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You're going to get the most use out of it if you can convince your teammates to work with you. If you've got a druid, magus, sorcerer, or wizard on the team for example you might coordinate with them to use your domain power after they cast a frigid touch spell.
Or, as an Inquisitor yourself you might be interested in the Dictum spell (basically the lawful version of Holy Word), which you'll get in 3 levels (unless you're chaotic). Since it only staggers on things that are at least 1 hd lower than your caster level it's not likely that you could combine it with your domain power to take out huge or monstrous targets (at least not in most cases), but there are a few exceptions to that. Any BBEG of a 0HD race that also has a template (half fiends, for example) is likely to be of a lower hd than their CR would suggest. Pair your abilities wisely and on round one you can stagger that tough half-fiend antipaladin, then put them to sleep on round 2, giving your main melee fighter (who would have closed the gap by that point) a quick and easy coup-de-grace.
...Other than that, just use your abilities wisely. A single large, difficult enemy that's relying on full attacks to kill you and your party might be worth sacrificing your turns to limit its power while your allies whittle it down.
Sadly, Carrion Crown ends at 15th level or so, so no 6th level inquisitor spells for me. And I'm not saying the ability is worthless by any means. I'm just saying that spending a round casting divine power and then unleashing a judgement fueled greater bane augmented attack myself is often the better option - but of course it all depends on circumstances.
It's certainly a solid tactic if one has to move up to a multiple-attacking foe to not have to suck up a full attack on their next turn. And it can be strong with teamwork, but so are a lot of domain powers. Luck domain on a pouncing, grappling eidolon or animal companion, for example. Heck, I've got a PFS cleric whose entire combat thing is using Luck domain on better combatants, or otherwise buffing.
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Staggering is a powerful ability regardless - it's powerful against casters too, because casters usually stay safe by moving every round - this means they have to stand still to cast (except quickened effects that is).
The thing is, Stagger is powerful.
Requiring a melee touch attack is not.
At lower levels, it's not that powerful because 1. you have lower base attack bonus (and movement speed) so you are far less likely to land it, and 2. the debuff isn't as strong against martial enemies since they just hit once regardless.
At higher levels, it's not that powerful because 1. enemies have loads of countermeasures and are dangerous to get close to and 2. enemies have spell resistance that's hard to break (especially if multiclass) and 3. it still costs an action and you can do a LOT more powerful stuff with that action.
If you're a 5th level cleric you're unlikely to hit with it against most opponents with your 20ft movement speed and +3 BAB.
If you're a 15th level cleric you're unlikely to land it because you both have to get into melee with a creature that likely has much more reach than you and often dangerous attacks and mirror images or similar and also you have to pass a 50/50 SR check (unless you have additional investment in it). At this point too, you'd rather spend the significant action cost to cast, say, Spit Venom - which causes a debuff roughly as debilitating against many enemies (and that fewer are immune to), with no save, no SR, and at range so you don't even have to get into melee with them.
If one side had pistols and the other slingshots...yes...pistols are overpowered. But if both sides have it, what's the basis of the complaint?
2 brokens don't make a fixed, and the PCs are much different than NPCs?
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I’ve seen the auto-sleep combo in play with 2 casters who had Frigid Touch and a Cleric with Gentle Rest. It was absolutely brutal. I wouldn’t say that it “ruined” the campaign, but it probably could have. I think it might have been far worse if I were running an AP and therefore couldn’t easily adjust to use more monsters with a chance to resist the power (OK, a DM running an AP can adjust, but completely overhauling published adventures to deal with overpowered abilities seems like the antithesis of game balance)
It is possible to rationalize just about any power in the game. It is also possible to foil just about any power, especially when people propose stuff like having the DM invent custom magic items which prevent the power from working on certain enemies. “If the DM is arbitrary and unfair then the power won’t work except when he lets it” isn’t really the sort of game balance I want though.
Pointing out some situations in which the Gentle Rest might somehow fail or the sleep combo might not work doesn’t change the fact that Gentle Rest would be a pretty good domain power even if it just staggered foes without a save. In fact, the OP is proposing that function alone is overpowered. I’m not willing to go that far since Frigid Touch and some other abilities provide a no-save stagger and Paizo seems committed both to providing ways to stagger foes and providing something for them to do while staggered (Vital Strike etc).
What I will say again though is that since the sleep effect is just an added bonus on top of an already solid domain power perhaps it would be best to offer a saving throw vs the sleep effect. This wouldn’t make the power “worthless”. It wouldn’t even make it “too risky” since worst case you’re next to a staggered foe. The enemy could still fail the save and likely get killed. Gentle Rest would still be a powerful ability. Maybe “everybody” could be happy. Why does Gentle Rest need to have a no-save sleep power built in? It would be difficult to argue that the Repose Domain would be too weak without it, especially when the 8th level power is also very strong though more situational.
Gentle Rest sleep combos are not difficult to pull off unless every enemy has advance knowledge of the PCs and takes care to stay away from melee. Even if the party can’t get in place to set up CdG in the 1st round they can auto-sleep the enemy and surround it while it is prone. Depending on the initiative count they can probably stagger it again before it gets a chance to stand up. Even a no-save trip effect which causes you to lose a turn would be pretty strong. Once again, why does the Repose domain need this added power? Wouldn’t adding a saving throw to the sleep effect be more fair?
@Ilja - The fact that you have to get into melee range with the enemy is not a powerful limiting factor, especially not on the auto-sleep combo. The worst case there is probably that you end up adjacent to a staggered foe. Clerics can be a viable class to stand in melee unless the DM amps up the monsters...perhaps to compensate for stuff like auto-sleep combos...
@Jiggy & Gluttony - Your sarcasm is amusing but doesn’t change the fact that the auto-sleep combos can be used across a wide range of encounters and CRs throughout a campaign to easily kill many if not most monsters not immune to sleep without much if any real challenge. I don't think the comparison to sneak attack is particularly apt since straw men are immune to sleep effects.
@insaneogeddon - I think you’ve hit upon the idea of: Would this power seem fair if the DM used it? I think the answer for “normal” players would be, “Hell no!”
@Karui Kage - I’m glad to see somebody agrees about offering a saving throw vs the sleep effect. It seems almost like a "no brainer" fix to me. A no-save stagger ability which can also trigger a save vs sleep would still be quite powerful IMO without being a "sure win"
A Will save is better than nothing at all, and the Witch hex also has the 'once per creature per 24 hours' limitation. If you make your save, they can't try again. Heck, even if you need a natural 20, that's still a 5% better chance you'll negate the effect then what this ability has (IE: no way to prevent it).
Ok, I did not intend to continue in this thread because people seem to camp on their POV no matter what... but here I go again.
Gentle Rest: is a touch and is (sp)=spell-like, so it needs a touch attack (two for the sleeping) AND it needs a spell resistance check.
Witch Hexes: The save to resist a hex is equal to 10 + 1/2 the witch’s level + the witch’s Intelligence modifier.
All of the follow hexes are (su), so you bypass spell resistance and none of these require touch attacks!
Misfortune (Su): Will negates; creature cannot be the target of this hex again for 1 day. (Extend duration with Cackle)
Slumber (Su): Will negates; hex can affect a creature of any HD; creature cannot be the target of this hex again for 1 day.
--> Eternal Slumber (Su): same thing
Agony (Su): Fortitude save negates; creature cannot be the target of this hex again for 1 day.
Delicious Fright (Su): Will reduces the duration of this hex to 1 round. mind-affecting fear effect no usage limit here! put a second fear effect to shut down that enemy completely
Hoarfrost (Su): Fortitude negates; creature cannot be the target of this hex again for 1 day. cold effect
Ice Tomb (Su): Fortitude half dmg; cannot be the target of this hex again for 1 day.
Retribution (Su): Will negates no usage limit here! great against melee foes
Death Curse (Su): Will negates; third round = Fort save or death! cannot be the target of this hex again for 1 day
Many GMs hate witch PCs who go around slumbering enemies too. I'd probably add a save against the sleep effect.
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I think the deeeper issue here is the design decision that touch attacks are already equivalent to saving throws. Most spells and effect either require a touch attack or a save, but not both. Effects requiring both are usually reserved for very powerful things like disintegrate - Gentle Rest is just not in that same class at all so requiring both an attack roll and a save would compeletly neuter the ability, especially at low levels.
The problem is, that while saving throws scale with level, touch AC does not, in fact it often goes down. So at 1st level a touch attack or a save is pretty much a wash, by 15th level the touch attack is basically a gimme, while the save could still be relevant.
What I'm getting at is this issue is deeper than any one effect - touch attacks just aren't a balancing factor at high levels in most circumstances, so using them as an equivalent to saves is problematic. This is an issue with pretty much all touch effects. Some of it stems from high level monsters tending to be big, and using natural armor as a sort of design "kludge" to make a critter's AC correct for its CR, which doesn't help its touch AC.
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This "mythical" cleric with a staggering touch can get ripped of by decent dragon with several clever moves:
a) Dragon can trip cleric with his insane CMB and stop him from getting near
b) Dragon can fly into the air
c) Dragon can time breath weapon while staggered
d) Dragon can grapple cleric while staggered and fly 200 feet into the air in the next round to drop this little insolent cleric.
e) Everything else.
So overall, staggered on touch is nasty debuff, but it does depend on which enemy. A staggered caster is crippled a bit, but in no way harmless for example.
Only thing that seems out of way is PC's playing 2x clerics to abuse such debuff to their maximum limits. In these cases, as a GM (and considering it's a home game of course), I would simply start making encounters harder including more enemies.
Malag
If you dont step up the monsters, three well-coordinated party members will stomp theough anything, regardless of if they go for frigid touch/frigid touch/repose or venom spit/melee vivisecrionist/melee vivisectionist or simply three wizards with empowered enervation and something decent against undeads.
The monsters are balanced to provide a decent opposition to parties who are relatively new, either as players or as a party. Against optimized characters -and evenmore so optimized parties - stuff tend to be steamrolled unless you custom-build the monsters equally optimized.
The APs are the same. They are designed so that the iconics can get through them. My guess is that a three person party could go through most APs successfully if theyre optimizdd and work well together.
Yeah, repose is nice, its kind of "optimizdd in a can" in that its decent withoit further investment, and a party building a tactic around it can be successful -but so can a party building around most strategies.
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@Ryric: I agree with your assesment of game design where Touch AC doesn't carry the same balance that saving throws does.
I disagree with you on Gentle Rest getting completely neutered by adding a save to the SECONDARY effect. Most other domain powers are on par with the first effect of Gentle Rest. Gentle Rest then have a secondary effect on TOP of that. Adding a save to this secondary effect would still leave the domain power BETTER than the other touch attack domain powers, but it does bring it closer to those other domain powers.
I've seen people on this thread state that even the basic stagger effect should have a save, which would make the ability generally not worth using at low levels.
I'm still not sold on the sleep effect being all that easy to set up reliably. I'm certainly not sure it's much worse than a mid level archer or pouncebarian dealing 100+ damage a round all by themselves.
That is definitely a good example. I tip my hat to you sir :DI'd like to see a domain power that can rival Gentle Repose in offensive power.This one's probably more abusable:
"Vision of Madness (Sp): You can give a creature a vision of madness as a melee touch attack. Choose one of the following: attack rolls, saving throws, or skill checks. The target receives a bonus to the chosen rolls equal to 1/2 your cleric level (minimum +1) and a penalty to the other two types of rolls equal to 1/2 your cleric level (minimum –1). This effect fades after 3 rounds. You can use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + your Wisdom modifier."
At level 20, you can touch an enemy to give them -10 to attack and -10 to all saves (and +10 to all skills) for three rounds with a single touch. I'd say that's worse than being staggered. It's not so effective at low levels, but neither is Gentle Repose.
There are other very strong domain powers, while different enough to be hard to compare:
Travel domain: At first level you get +10ft base movement and a couple of rounds per level you can ignore difficult terrain.
Growth subdomain: Swift action enlarge person on self.
Torture subdomain: When activated you deal nonlethal damage, increase the damage dealt by your wis bonus and get a free intimidate roll if the attack succeeds.
A lot of domain powers are strong if you build for it. And some are strong for everyone.
One way to use the sleep effect alone in one turn would be the toovenar (3pp magus archetype) with domain strike. He can mystic strike to make a full attack and use one domain power as a full round action. And via domain strike he can apply the second use on an unarmed hit.
I think the deeeper issue here is the design decision that touch attacks are already equivalent to saving throws. Most spells and effect either require a touch attack or a save, but not both. Effects requiring both are usually reserved for very powerful things like disintegrate - Gentle Rest is just not in that same class at all so requiring both an attack roll and a save would compeletly neuter the ability, especially at low levels.
The problem is, that while saving throws scale with level, touch AC does not, in fact it often goes down. So at 1st level a touch attack or a save is pretty much a wash, by 15th level the touch attack is basically a gimme, while the save could still be relevant.
What I'm getting at is this issue is deeper than any one effect - touch attacks just aren't a balancing factor at high levels in most circumstances, so using them as an equivalent to saves is problematic. This is an issue with pretty much all touch effects. Some of it stems from high level monsters tending to be big, and using natural armor as a sort of design "kludge" to make a critter's AC correct for its CR, which doesn't help its touch AC.
If I could suggest, ryric, from what I've read, it's kind of built from the reverse take here: spell-resistance is kind of the "saving throw" while the touch attack is the "additional limiting factor" (that a save would otherwise possess).
One of the problems here is that not all creatures have saving throws... but by the same token, as you note, touch AC is weaker at lower levels where spell resistance is less common.
I suppose, on re-thinking it, we're both looking at it a little wrong (I'm leaving my original posit, because I want it to be clear where I'm coming from).
It seems the design is:
- low levels: touch AC (and occasional immunity and spell-resistance) is the limiting factor
- high levels: spells resistance and outright immunity (and occasional touch AC) is the limiting factor
There may be some sort of "mid level gap" where either the limits are too big, or are too little from the original design goal.
In all the games I've played or run, at least, I've never seen something like this come into play (and wouldn't have in if some of the options existed in pre-Pathfinder, too), because my players just haven't ever been interested in all taking the same set-up. Or a whole feat for a single ability.
I can see how it would be powerful in vacuum. In-play, however, there are so many other, more efficient ways of setting up an insta-kill or near-insta-kill by the players, this doesn't seem like it's going to be a real issue unless a group of players specifically sets themselves up to take advantage of and/or abuse this combination*. In which case, much like with any situation in which players all work together to build a specific set of ideas, you need to talk to them about what they want out of the game (if you haven't already).
But that's just me. :)
* This might be untrue. I've just got a hard time imagining a group "accidentally" discovering this combination in all but a very few cases. In all other cases, they're either using it on purpose, or only using it under certain circumstances, which seems, you know, fair and a non-issue.
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Might partly be a playstyle issue to though. I mean, when I hear "first round CdG" I'm like... "whaaat?". Our fights rarely start close enough that that would be even remotely possible, even if the party was lucky enough to get a surprise round.
If most dangerous fights are 4v1's against high-CR enemies in close, confined spaces I guess it could seem overpowered. Though if my party is level 7, works well as a group and is decently optimized, and I want to challenge them in a 4v1 and for some reason was not allowed to customize the monster or allow it to use advantegous terrain etc, I'd probably have a look at the CR11 and CR12 lists to see if I find something fitting.
And there, many opponents have SR, which a level 7 character will have a hard time getting through unless optimizing for it (and even an elf with SP and GSP will only have roughly 60% chance).