Why is Gentle Rest so overpowered?


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Shadow Lodge

Repose Domain

Gentle Rest (Sp): Your touch can fill a creature with lethargy, causing a living creature to become staggered for 1 round as a melee touch attack. If you touch a staggered living creature, that creature falls asleep for 1 round instead. Undead creatures touched are staggered for a number of rounds equal to your Wisdom modifier. You can use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + your Wisdom modifier.

== // ==

So let me get this straight: a 1st-level domain-granted touch-attack with no save will strip away a dragon's full-attack spread?

...A good three-quarters of the creatures in all the Bestiaries are dog-chow versus this ability. Basically, everything with a high challenge-rating factoring multi-attack.

And then there's the "spam" strategy I saw in the archives in which a party with two PCs with Gentle Rest touch the same target to put it asleep, followed by a third buddy who coup de graces.


Sounds like you understand the ability perfectly.

Sczarni

well just remember SP abilities do provoke attacks of opportunity... so they have to activate it, then they have to move in and perform a touch attack... so move action, standard action, then another standard action unless they are willing to eat an AoO, or an AoO was already performed and they don't have combat reflexes (most don't)

Liberty's Edge

Touch attacks can be delivered in the same round that they are cast as a free action. So, one can cast the (Sp) as a standard action while out of AoO range, move, then touch attack as a free action. It doesn't take two standard actions.

Sczarni

Howie23 wrote:
Touch attacks can be delivered in the same round that they are cast as a free action. So, one can cast the (Sp) as a standard action while out of AoO range, move, then touch attack as a free action. It doesn't take two standard actions.

What you say rings a bell but when I go to look for it, I can't find it. I know you can deliever it as part of casting the spell, but there's nothing anywhere that I can find that says you can deliver it within the round as a free action, only that you can as part of casting the spell...


lantzkev wrote:
I know you can deliever it as part of casting the spell, but there's nothing anywhere that I can find that says you can deliver it within the round as a free action, only that you can as part of casting the spell...

Page 185, " You may take your move before casting the spell, after touching the target, or between casting the spell and touching the target."

'Gentle Rest' is an example of one of those powers that demonstrate why people say encounters between a whole group and a single enemy aren't a good idea.

Sczarni

Quote:
Touch Spells in Combat: Many spells have a range of touch. To use these spells, you cast the spell and then touch the subject. In the same round that you cast the spell, you may also touch (or attempt to touch) as a free action. You may take your move before casting the spell, after touching the target, or between casting the spell and touching the target. You can automatically touch one friend or use the spell on yourself, but to touch an opponent, you must succeed on an attack roll.

thanks that helped me narrow down the search...

Liberty's Edge

I'm on phone and can't paste or link. In the combat chapter, under Cast a Spell, sub-header Touch Spells in Combat. In addition to the text quoted above, the free action language is specified there.

Edit: looks like you found it.


I agree that the ability is overpowered. I happen to think that only the sleep part is really overpowered though. There are several low level spells which can stagger an opponent with no saving throw, so I accept that as being fairly "normal". Being able to put a staggered opponent to sleep with no saving throw is outlandish though. Adding a saving throw vs the sleep effect would make the ability powerful but within the bounds of reason.

I guess my stance here might seem kind of extreme, but there's been a profusion of other abilities which stagger foes since the Core book came out, and every new one adds to the potential for Gentle Rest abuse. I've seen a Frigid Touch plus Gentle Rest tag team in action, and it can be pretty ugly. Gentle Rest would be a decent power even without the sleep ability, so offering a save on that part wouldn't make it "worthless" (especially compared to some of the other 1st level domain powers)


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There are exactly 9 spells that staggers a target without a save (not counting mythic versions):
- Dictum;
- Fool's Forbidance;
- Stunning Finale;
- Suffocation;
- Frigid Touch;
- Overwhelming Presence;
- Terrible Remorse;
- Waves of Ecstasy;
- Energy Siege Shot;
Frigid Touch is the only low level. Both it and Gentle Rest need a rebalance. Staggered is a really strong debuff...


Doesn't "For One Round" end at the beginning of your next turn thus meaning that the creature is no longer staggered for you to hit with the sleep effect?
Wouldn't you need something else to stagger it first?


hairy old lady wrote:

Doesn't "For One Round" end at the beginning of your next turn thus meaning that the creature is no longer staggered for you to hit with the sleep effect?

Wouldn't you need something else to stagger it first?

That's what I thought. Stagger is a pretty nasty condition by itself though.


hairy old lady wrote:

Doesn't "For One Round" end at the beginning of your next turn thus meaning that the creature is no longer staggered for you to hit with the sleep effect?

Wouldn't you need something else to stagger it first?

Yes ... that's why you get two PCs with the ability.


Zhayne wrote:
hairy old lady wrote:

Doesn't "For One Round" end at the beginning of your next turn thus meaning that the creature is no longer staggered for you to hit with the sleep effect?

Wouldn't you need something else to stagger it first?
Yes ... that's why you get two PCs with the ability.

Or you could get people to start chucking snowballs. Lots of ways to get someone staggered.


Zhayne wrote:
hairy old lady wrote:

Doesn't "For One Round" end at the beginning of your next turn thus meaning that the creature is no longer staggered for you to hit with the sleep effect?

Wouldn't you need something else to stagger it first?
Yes ... that's why you get two PCs with the ability.

And another one with a scythe.


The ability being a Sp could probably fall under the stacking rules, meaning two people who use the same ability on the same target don't get the sleep effect, they get a prolonged staggered effect (as the first one would end before the second one).

If used on a creature staggered from some other source it would be put to sleep, given the duration of the ability there is no reason to say the ability doesn't stack with itself, as it would end before the character could reapply it.

I honestly haven't got a problem with the ability as it stands, characters that do this are basically one trick ponies who are probably screwed once SR comes into play (as SP abilities are subject to SR).


This trick doesn't really require enough investment to make you a one trick pony. Anyhow, we'll never all agree that the existing ability (or probably any existing ability at all) is overpowered. I wonder if we might possibly agree that adding a saving throw to just the sleep effect wouldn't make the ability "underpowered" though.

A no save stagger multiple times per day as a 1st level domain power seems like a decent ability to me, and there's even an additional longer term stagger which can be used against undead. The sleep effect seems like gravy. I don't think the ability needs such powerful gravy, but adding a saving throw would really help.


Skylancer4 wrote:

The ability being a Sp could probably fall under the stacking rules, meaning two people who use the same ability on the same target don't get the sleep effect, they get a prolonged staggered effect (as the first one would end before the second one).

If used on a creature staggered from some other source it would be put to sleep, given the duration of the ability there is no reason to say the ability doesn't stack with itself, as it would end before the character could reapply it.

I honestly haven't got a problem with the ability as it stands, characters that do this are basically one trick ponies who are probably screwed once SR comes into play (as SP abilities are subject to SR).

I'm not sure how you define such characters as being one trick ponies.

A cleric with the repose domain has ward against death, both abilities from his other domain, channeling (with all the ways it can be augmented), and lots of spells (including domain spell slots from repose and one other domain). This could be changed even further for varied archetypes...In essence, the whole of the class is still functional without needing to be built around gentle rest.

An inquisitor with the repose domain would also have judgements, solo tactics, bane, etc. In essence, the whole of the class is still functional without needing to be built around gentle rest.

A character built on dealing lots of damage damage using a x4 critical multiplier two-handed weapon (high strength, power attack, furious focus, weapon training, weapon specilization, vital strike, etc.) still hits like a brick s~@+house even without gentle rest. IOW, the character is still very effective at what it is built to do without gentle repose.

Shadow Lodge

Just sayin' that a first-level character ganking full-attack ability on a no-save touch is encounter-breaking b@@$#++s.

I could care less about any of the rest of it.


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Adventure Path Charter Subscriber
Sir Thugsalot wrote:

Just sayin' that a first-level character ganking full-attack ability on a no-save touch is encounter-breaking b+*&++!s.

Considering this is also achievable by having everyone move more than a 5 ft adjust away so the opponent in question has to move to attack, I'm not sure this aspect of it is all that encounter breaking.


A first level cleric who goes up to, say, a level 6 fighter, and reduces them to a single standard action, is likely to be killed by that standard action.


Zhayne wrote:
hairy old lady wrote:

Doesn't "For One Round" end at the beginning of your next turn thus meaning that the creature is no longer staggered for you to hit with the sleep effect?

Wouldn't you need something else to stagger it first?
Yes ... that's why you get two PCs with the ability.

Who said the DM would let you, if he/she knew about your plan to exploit this tactic?


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Leadership is a more plausible way to get this tactic. Who better to have as a cohort than a junior follower of your own faith?


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Icyshadow wrote:
Zhayne wrote:
hairy old lady wrote:

Doesn't "For One Round" end at the beginning of your next turn thus meaning that the creature is no longer staggered for you to hit with the sleep effect?

Wouldn't you need something else to stagger it first?
Yes ... that's why you get two PCs with the ability.
Who said the DM would let you, if he/she knew about your plan to exploit this tactic?

A party with a Cleric, Inquisitor, Wizard and Barbarian is perfectly viable. The Cleric and Inquisitor could run around tag-teaming enemies with Gentle Repose while the Fighter come sup and coup-de-graces an enemy.

Cleric goes: Gentle Repose *staggered*
Wizard goes: Wizrdly things.
Inquisitor goes: Gentle Repose *auto sleep*
Figher goes: Coup-de-grace.

Dead enemy. Imagine this happening to a BBEG of an AP. Really anti-climactic ending.


Then as DM, I'd make a magical item that the BBEG acquired that grants immunity to being staggered like that.

If there were rumours about the PCs employing such tactics, a savvy BBEG would properly prepare for the occasion.


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Remember, it's only a standard action to awaken a sleeping ally.

So: all party members delay to the initiative of their last member in order that their combo can't be interrupted. During this time the boss has a good chance to buff himself or take down a party member, perhaps on a failed saving throw.
If the boss and his allies do nothing to prevent it:
Cleric goes: Gentle Repose *staggered* (assuming you can hit on a touch attack and beat spell resistance)
Inquisitor goes: Gentle Repose *auto sleep*
Wizard goes: Dimension Door to get fighter next to boss
Figher goes: Coup-de-grace.

But the average boss could also be taken down in one round by, say, a zen archer and pouncing barbarian. Good encounter design means not creating a boss who just stands there and let the entire group attack him all at once.


What about the Dragon's SR? What about having to hit? What about losing your round to do this, while the target only loses half of theirs (heck a pounce charger could still weasel a full-attack out) what about putting yourself in melee range and all that comes with it? What about provoking AoOs either by moving in, or using the abil once you are there.

Not an OP ability IMO... just a decent ability that maintains value.


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Most high-level low touch AC monsters i can think of has quite decent spellcasting ability and many are immune to sleep.

Dragons are a prime example.

No doubt it is a very powerful ability, perhaps especially for martials dipping cleric. It is quite risky though, as if either the attack or the spell resistance check fails, youre next to a bid bad, which isnt so good for many clerics.


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"3 (more like 4) PC's working together perfectly where the BBEG and minions do nothing to stop them from setting up this convoluted combo can kill the BBEG!!"

Well duh. The list of ways 3-4 PCs could kill a BBEG in one round under perfect circumstances when nothing is done to counter it is pretty long. Simply 3 rage-pounching Barbs could easily one round kill any BBEG thats of a proper CR for a BBEG of that lvl.

Stagger isn't anything great. Using a full round to partially limit one targets actions is a so-so trade off at best.


I think a monk migth get somthing from a level dip to get that power if he also take domain strike then he can stagger folks when he charge in. and medusas wrath will also like it. But i dont think it breakes the game. staggering is good but it is not exactly crippeling for everybody. and as have already been said there are other problems with allowing the BBEG to figth the PCs on his own.


While you are all of course right that a BBEG as a solo encounter is going down fast, and while there are several ways to one round the BBEG if the party sets up for it perfectly, you still haven't answered the true question of the thread.
Why is Gentle Rest so overpowered?
The OP then went on to say that comparing this first lvl domain power to others of its kind showed this option as extremely good. Any powergaming cleric would try to get Gentle Rest as his first lvl domain power because AFAIK there aren't any better choices.


Quite a few Domain powers are pretty strong.


There are a number of excellent domains. Travel. Liberation. Madness. Trickery. Not everyone wants to be a Pharasma worshipper who goes around poking enemies to remove their move actions at the cost of a standard action.


The staggered condition is just fine. The tag-teaming for sleep and then cop the grace seems to be a overpowered tactic, or at least a really annoying one.

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

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Waitwaitwait... So you guys are telling me that there's a way for three PCs, who coordinate their abilities and work as an actual team instead of a collection of lone wolves, to be able to take down a single enemy?

OMG BORKEN!!!


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Okay, let's optimize it a bit...

Hmmm...

Unarmed Magus spellstriking with Frigid Touch and then applying Gentle Rest as a Domain Strike. Then his Improved familiar goes in with a scythe.

Done!


Matthew Downie wrote:
There are a number of excellent domains. Travel. Liberation. Madness. Trickery. Not everyone wants to be a Pharasma worshipper who goes around poking enemies to remove their move actions at the cost of a standard action.

The part of removing the move action at the cost of a standard action is so leaving out the huge benefit of stopping full attacks.


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Honestly this ability - and a couple other no-save staggered effects like frigid touch and suffocation - seem a little excessive in my experience. They aren't that powerful at level one, but by the time beings start receiving additional attacks they become just obnoxious.

Conceptually I don't like the idea of such a low level power shutting down high level abilities (multiple attacks) without a save. I'd probably tack a save onto both effects (will, DC 10 + 1/2 level + Cha).


LoneKnave wrote:

Okay, let's optimize it a bit...

Hmmm...

Unarmed Magus spellstriking with Frigid Touch and then applying Gentle Rest as a Domain Strike. Then his Improved familiar goes in with a scythe.

Done!

Druids get frigid touch at 3rd level so a great companion. Magus at 4th.

But your right a magus with a 1 level dip of cleric/inquisitor/paladin for repose domain is a one person boss killer from 5th level. With auto crit on a sleeping opponent and the touch attacks you could pretty much one shot things far higher level if you won initiative - sleep it then round 2 BAM!

That does seem a bit much!


Sadly, Irori clerics don't get gentle rest. A pity, since iirc they get Improved Unarmed Strike as the favored weapon.

Well, I guess going by pure theory, you could have a god (or be a godless cleric) that gives the repose domain with an unarmed strike favored weapon.

You could also go cleric 3 Magus 3 (for spell blending arcana), get animal and repose domains, and be a Samsaran with Mystic past life to add Frigid Touch to your Cleric spell list, among other stuff.


Lifat wrote:
Matthew Downie wrote:
There are a number of excellent domains. Travel. Liberation. Madness. Trickery. Not everyone wants to be a Pharasma worshipper who goes around poking enemies to remove their move actions at the cost of a standard action.
The part of removing the move action at the cost of a standard action is so leaving out the huge benefit of stopping full attacks.

At the cost of your own full attack you know.

Yes, in a 4v1 ANYTHING that disables action economy will be very strong.

But spending a standard action to MAYBE (remember, you still have to hit with a touch attack and bypass SR as well as any Concealment and stuff like mirror images they have) deny a move action isn't overpowering at all. Yes, it's better than the other touch-attack domain powers, but those are mostly kinda crap. There are plenty of domain power I'd take rather than this.

I mean, it was talked about high-level monsters, but looking at CR 15-20 we have these in the first bestiary (just as an example). All dragons also have Frightful Presence but that has pretty huge range so doesn't really make much difference compared other tactics.

CR15:
Adult Gold Dragon: Touch AC 8, immune to sleep, SR26, spellbuffed touch AC 15
Neothelid: Touch AC 4, SR26.
Phoenix: Touch AC 14, SR26.
Ancient White Dragon: Touch AC 8, immune to sleep, SR26, spellbuffed 50% concealment

CR16:
Ancient Black Dragon: Touch AC 8, immune to sleep, SR 27, spellbuffed T-AC 12, 20% concealment, darkness, anyone in space takes 20d6 acid damage
Ancient Brass Dragon: Touch AC 8, immune to sleep, SR 27, spellbuffed 50% concealment, medium creatures has to make DC25 fly check (at -12 penalty) or be blown out of reach and take damage.
Horned Devil: Touch AC 17, SR27, buffed T-AC 19 vs good.

CR17:
Ancient Copper Dragon: T-AC 8, immune to sleep, SR28, creatures within 10ft have to make DC28 save or be slowed (thus if they move up and fail the save they can't touch and are stuck beside a dragon) spellbuffed AC9
Ancient Green Dragon: T-AC 8, immune to sleep, SR28, spellbuffed AC 9, 1d4+4 mirror images.
Ice Linnorm: T-AC8, immune to sleep, SR28, maaaybe immune (freedom of movement is pretty vague)
Marilith: T-AC17, SR28, attacker takes 1d6 strength damage if hits

CR18:
Ancient Blue Dragon: T-AC 5, immune to sleep, SR29, spellbuffed AC10, 50% concealment
Ancient Bronze Dragon: T-AC 5, immune to sleep, SR29, spellbuffed 1d4+t mirror images, 20% concealment
Kraken: T-AC 6, Fort save DC29 or be nauseated (unable to attack)

CR19:
Ancient Red Dragon: T-AC 5, immune to sleep, SR30, spellbuffed 50% displacement, spell turning (so yeah... don't want to hit it)
Shoggoth: T-AC15, immune to sleep, SR30, if the caster is within 60ft during the Shoggoth's turn, DC22 save or 1d6 wis damage
Ancient Silver Dragon: T-AC5, immune to sleep, SR30, spellbuffed medium creatures have to make DC25 fly check (at -12) or be blown away, DC24 save to approach, possibly immune (freedom of movement)

CR20:
Balor: T-AC20, SR31
Ancient Gold Dragon. T-AC5. SR31, immune to sleep. Spellbuffed T-AC14, potentially immune (spell immunity if it knows about the PC's using that tactic - likely at this level of play), attacks take a -1.
Pit Fiend: T-AC18, SR31

And this of course isn't including all the gear they could have. Especially dragons with their 3x treasure. We could almost assume most creatures will have AC's at least 2-3 points higher, depending on gear, and/or other defensive abilities.

While a useful ability at all levels, it is in no way an autosuccess - and while clerics will be in a bad spot if they fail, dippers will be unlikely to beat the quite noticable spell resistance.

Shadow Lodge

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Paizo Superscriber; Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Starfinder Superscriber
Matthew Downie wrote:
There are a number of excellent domains. Travel. Liberation. Madness. Trickery. Not everyone wants to be a Pharasma worshipper who goes around poking enemies to remove their move actions at the cost of a standard action.

No, not Pharasma. Naderi. Then you can *also* take the Charm domain with its Dazing Touch that dazes them for a round with no save. Then they get no actions.

Or, since that's redundant, the Love Subdomain which requires a Will save from an attacker before they can target you.

Wait, which was the better domain again?


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Seems pretty in line with the Fey sorcerer bloodline power at level 1. Laughing Touch also has no save and the target can only perform a move action... how's that for a shut down?

And you can grab that with eldritch heritage on any character. Then go ahead and take quicken SLA to make it a swift action that doesn't provoke.


Lord_Malkov: Well, I think Gentle Rest is nice but not overpowered, but there IS a difference: A sorcerer is a 1/2 BAB class, a cleric/oracle/inquisitor is a 3/4 BAB class. That makes quite a big difference in how easy it is to get it in. Having better defenses against melee return attacks is also pretty nice.


Lord_Malkov wrote:

Seems pretty in line with the Fey sorcerer bloodline power at level 1. Laughing Touch also has no save and the target can only perform a move action... how's that for a shut down?

And you can grab that with eldritch heritage on any character. Then go ahead and take quicken SLA to make it a swift action that doesn't provoke.

Laughing touch does not stack with itslefs and can only affect a given target once per day.


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Jiggy wrote:

Waitwaitwait... So you guys are telling me that there's a way for three PCs, who coordinate their abilities and work as an actual team instead of a collection of lone wolves, to be able to take down a single enemy?

OMG BORKEN!!!

What's next? A Rogue actually getting flank for all their sneak attacks because the PCs are coordinating their abilities and working as an actual team instead of all trying to be lone wolves?!

Teamwork OP!!!

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

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Most hilarious teamwork situation (in my opinion):

Entire team takes Outflank, Gang Up and Combat Reflexes. Preferably, they all get keen rapiers.

PC1: Approach enemy, ready to attack when PC4 attacks.
PC2: Approach enemy, ready to attack when PC4 attacks.
PC3: Approach enemy, ready to attack when PC4 attacks.
PC4: Approach enemy and attack. The other three PCs' readied actions go off, for a total of four attacks.

Statistically speaking, at least one of them should crit (confirming shouldn't be hard, given the +4 flanking bonus). When they do, the other three PCs get AoOs.

That's 3 more attacks.

If one crits (not terrible odds), then there's another 3 attacks.

Repeat until either no one crits, or the enemy has taken somewhere around 28 attacks.

In one round.


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Jiggy wrote:

Most hilarious teamwork situation (in my opinion):

Entire team takes Outflank, Gang Up and Combat Reflexes. Preferably, they all get keen rapiers.

PC1: Approach enemy, ready to attack when PC4 attacks.
PC2: Approach enemy, ready to attack when PC4 attacks.
PC3: Approach enemy, ready to attack when PC4 attacks.
PC4: Approach enemy and attack. The other three PCs' readied actions go off, for a total of four attacks.

Statistically speaking, at least one of them should crit (confirming shouldn't be hard, given the +4 flanking bonus). When they do, the other three PCs get AoOs.

That's 3 more attacks.

If one crits (not terrible odds), then there's another 3 attacks.

Repeat until either no one crits, or the enemy has taken somewhere around 28 attacks.

In one round.

No one expects the Caydenic Inquisition!!


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Detect Magic wrote:
Zhayne wrote:
hairy old lady wrote:

Doesn't "For One Round" end at the beginning of your next turn thus meaning that the creature is no longer staggered for you to hit with the sleep effect?

Wouldn't you need something else to stagger it first?
Yes ... that's why you get two PCs with the ability.
And another one with a scythe.

You just gave me an interesting idea for a cult.

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