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The Elven Curve Blade, quixotic king of the finesse-weapon family - it's interested me for quite some time, and I originally wanted to make a Kensei Magus specialized in it, before I found out that Magi don't work well with 2-handed weapons, and there's yet to be an archetype thereof that makes the possibility viable (my other idea for what I wanted to do with a Magus was create a sinister, mail-clad "dark halberdier", so that much sucks), but I digress.
What can people tell me about their experiences/opinions of the Elven Curve Blade, and for what characters/conditions does it really shine? When answering, please keep in mind that I'm looking for something that works in Organized Play. I've been thinking of making a high-Dexterity Elven Barbarian who would wield one, but how well do you think that would actually work?
Basically my take on the CEB is that it is equal to all two-handed weapons if you are an elf or treated as an elf IF you are going strength, AND that it is inferior to all finesse weapons if you are going weapon finesse because you don't get the +1.5 bonus from 2-handing it like if you were strength.
It is inferior to most finesse weapons in that you can use a shield with most of them.
You do 1d10/18-20/2x.
The ONLY time I would consider the CEB superior to anything is if you are going to make it keen, since you would then crit on a 15-20/2x.
So, in the long run, if you are going STR based then the CEB is pretty good if you are an elf.
The feat requirement for most characters kills it, but the crit range revives it.
If you want the best high crit core weapon, take the ECB. It's (very slightly) better than the falchion. Other than that, there's not much to it.
Using it with finesse is useless. The main reason to go with a two-handed weapon is the 1.5 Str to damage. You probably won't have much strength on a finesse build so your damage will suffer. Power Attack alone is just not enough.
As for builds that could work with the ECB... Maybe an Elven Fighter/Wizard/EK? Even though I still wouldn't wield it with finesse, to be honest. But at least you could get Arcane Strike and spells as damage boosts, so it might work out.
You still get the increase in damage from Power Attack while using it two-handed. So once you hit level 4 or so, the loss of damage from only getting 1x Dex will be pretty slight overall.
Put 14 in Str (or 13 to qualify, then make it an Agile weapon eventually), and you'll be doing 1d10+10 at level 4, and you get all the other benefits of a high Dex (touch AC, initiative, Reflex saves...). I'd call it a solid choice.
An excellent weapon, the finesse ability is the great sidetrack though, the weapon rocks for STR builds.
If you want to do damage and play a magus then your weapon is pretty immaterial since any spell-storing weapon(shocking grasp) + Spellstrike(shocking grasp) + casting (shocking grasp) the round before you go in to murderize everything is pretty much the way to go for insta-killing things.
This is also sort of what the magus is good at.
One way this could work is going Kensai
STR 16
DEX 10
CON 10
INT 16
WIS 10
CHA 10
and choose to either focus on STR(offense) or INT(Casting/Defense)
You cannot spellstrike, but you gain all the benefits of Kensai. Though, you are also paper, so you'll want to change things around a bit.
Elven curve blade is a fun and flavorful weapon with a few unique attributes. Certainly worthy, almost a no-brainer for martial elves just looking for a starting weapon. Finesse or not can both work.
Nice for an elf (or half-elf with the ancestral arms racial ability) switch-hitter or a dedicated two-handed warrior. Overall a solid choice, and an agile curveblade does make for an interesting dex-heavy two-hander build, but you still need 13+str for power attack.
AND that it is inferior to all finesse weapons if you are going weapon finesse because you don't get the +1.5 bonus from 2-handing it like if you were strength.
It is inferior to most finesse weapons in that you can use a shield with most of them.
Where is the text that indicates that the ECB would not get 1.5 Str mod to damage? It's not in the text of either the weapon or of Weapon Finesse.
Second, why would you use a shield with a finesse weapon? Applying your shield's ACP to your attack rolls seems counter-productive.
That said, I quite like the ECB for a high-dex, moderate Str character - but not enough to spend a feat on it. It's the highest damage 18-20 weapon, and being two-handed, you can get pretty good damage with it just from a 14 Str (+3 damage) and Power Attack (1:3 ratio). It won't out-damage a greatsword until +28 (+13 w/ Improved Critical) but for a high-dex fighter, the increased chance to hit is worth the slight damage drop off.
I originally wanted to make a Kensei Magus specialized in it, before I found out that Magi don't work well with 2-handed weapons
Irrelevant, but: You could try a 2-level dip into Titan Mauler barbarian for Jotungrip. That'd also work for the halberdier idea. Pretty sure that archetype is PFS legal.
Using a shield with a finesse weapon takes the shields AP penalty against your attack rolls.
So, you're basically restricted to a mithral or darkwood buckler, which isn't all that bad.
==Aelryinth
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Finesse+Power Attack. Usually its a terrible combo, since all but like 3 weapons that can be finessed are light, and get less damage. But with this you get the 150% PA bonus. AND can rock it with a 10 strength as a ranger (but would want a 14 anyway for low levels). Its also great for Half-Orc Skulking Slayers wanting to go for finesse, as its the only 2h weapon that is finessable AFAIK. Of course, if you have to burn the feat to get it, it is much less, since the only exotic weapon to take via feat (generally, there are certain exception builds) is the falcata.
I love using it with a weapon finesse alchemist. Grenadier archetype gives you proficiency in one martial weapon. Mutagen-enhanced DEX improves his bombs and his melee. Sure damage doesn't go up but the base d10+STR is not bad at all and the crit threat range is high.
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"You can use weapon finesse with it" is code for "everything is good with an 18 strength."
My elven Barbarian digs getting crits on a 15 with a d10 weapon. Rage + Power Attack + Strength-and-a-half makes your criticals better than any other martials'.
Moreover, FCB Elf Barbarians move at monk speed. And get one extra AoO with Combat Reflexes. Con be damned!
My Elven Zen Archer uses an ECB as her backup melee weapon. With finesse, she can use her 20 Dex to hit, and with a 14 Str, she gets 1d10+3.
AND that it is inferior to all finesse weapons if you are going weapon finesse because you don't get the +1.5 bonus from 2-handing it like if you were strength.
It is inferior to most finesse weapons in that you can use a shield with most of them.
Where is the text that indicates that the ECB would not get 1.5 Str mod to damage? It's not in the text of either the weapon or of Weapon Finesse.
Yeah, I want to second this one, I can't find any reason to believe that the ECB doesn't get 1.5 str. Was this just a group mistake or is there a rule somewhere that I am missing?
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Yeah, I want to second this one, I can't find any reason to believe that the ECB doesn't get 1.5 str. Was this just a group mistake or is there a rule somewhere that I am missing?AND that it is inferior to all finesse weapons if you are going weapon finesse because you don't get the +1.5 bonus from 2-handing it like if you were strength.
It is inferior to most finesse weapons in that you can use a shield with most of them.
Where is the text that indicates that the ECB would not get 1.5 Str mod to damage? It's not in the text of either the weapon or of Weapon Finesse.
The way I read it was merely that they were saying the obvious: If all my ability scores are in Dexterity, then I don't get as much, if any, Strength bonus.
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You don't get your 1.5xStr bonus with an ECB because you're not adding your Strength to damage at all anymore-- you're adding Dex to damage, and Weapon Finesse doesn't let you add 1.5xDex for going two-handed.
If you don't use Weapon Finesse, then your Str bonus acts normally, of course.
Personally, my biggest problem with the curve blade is that there's no picture of it in the CRB. Is it like a thinner scimitar, or a long katana that tapers more to a point, or what? My initial mental image was of a sharpened question mark. Which is either absurd or awesome.
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Weapon Finesse lets you add your Dex bonus to attack instead of your Str bonus to attack...but even when using Finesse you don't add your Dex bonus to damage! It's still 1.5 x Str bonus.
If you're using Finesse then it'll be because your Dex is higher than your Str, so your Str bonus to damage will be lower than if you'd made a high Str character in the first place.
If you get the agile weapon property, then you can add your Dex bonus to damage instead of your Str bonus...but this does not become 1.5 x Dex bonus when you use the weapon in two hands.
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You don't get your 1.5xStr bonus with an ECB because you're not adding your Strength to damage at all anymore-- you're adding Dex to damage, and Weapon Finesse doesn't let you add 1.5xDex for going two-handed.
If you don't use Weapon Finesse, then your Str bonus acts normally, of course.
Personally, my biggest problem with the curve blade is that there's no picture of it in the CRB. Is it like a thinner scimitar, or a long katana that tapers more to a point, or what? My initial mental image was of a sharpened question mark. Which is either absurd or awesome.
Where in Weapon Finesse does it say that you use dex for damage? It only talks about using dex for attacks not damage.
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We have a Rogue/Fighter Elfling (Midnight race of Elf/Halfling with DEX+4, STR-2,CON-2) in our RotRL party who makes great use of his ECB.
At low levels, STR 14 and Power Attack is good. With Finesse for the to hit. Note that since Finesse only deals with the to-hit, the damage is still based on STR and gets the multiplier for using the weapon 2-handed.
So, a level 1 Medium character with STR 14 DEX 20 and a standard ECB using Power Attack would be at To Hit +5, damage 1d10+6, 18-20 x2. (Also init +5, Reflex base+5, AC+5)
At higher levels, Agile weapon property makes it even better. And Keen too. Do not forget the Keen (or Improved Critical).
Granted, the Agile explicitly does not give you the multiplier for 2-handed. But you still have a net gain as your DEX is already really higher than your STR.
So, a level 12 Medium character with STR 14 DEX 24 and a Keen Agile +1 ECB using Power Attack would be at To Hit +16/+11/+6, damage 1d10+20, 15-20 x2. (Also init +7, Reflex base+7, AC+7)
My Halfling paladin used an +1 Agile ECB. He had a 13 Strength just so He could use Power Attack. Any time he attacked, and hit, he hit pretty decently. Add in spells from the cleric and the bard and he wreaked havoc on the poor, unsuspecting evil doers they fought.
Basically, you can use it as a high crit weapon, or you can go the finesse route and park your Strength at 14. It's an interesting weapon.
you should be able to use this with alchemist bombs if you hold (not wield) this in one hand right? it's only 3 Kilograms.
Generally, you only need 1 hand to hold a weapon, even if it is two-handed. If one hand is enough for the bombs, you are ok as long as you do not try to dual-wield them :)
Finesse+Power Attack. Usually its a terrible combo, since all but like 3 weapons that can be finessed are light, and get less damage. But with this you get the 150% PA bonus. AND can rock it with a 10 strength as a ranger (but would want a 14 anyway for low levels). Its also great for Half-Orc Skulking Slayers wanting to go for finesse, as its the only 2h weapon that is finessable AFAIK. Of course, if you have to burn the feat to get it, it is much less, since the only exotic weapon to take via feat (generally, there are certain exception builds) is the falcata.
the fauchard is pretty boss as well, but that's mostly for reach builds.
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I've seen some good results from a Str-based multi-class elven Fighter with a 2-level dip into Metal Oracle. That gives the Lead Blades spell (plus the ability to use wands, etc. without Use Magic Device skill points). Together with Improved Critical (ECB), Critical Focus (and later the various critical feats), and the Vital Strike feat chain, you're looking at many d8s of damage and some debilitating conditions.
Magi can wield two-handed weapons alright. Though you can't spell combat with them, you can still spellstrike. It's not ideal, but you can do it. Honestly, that's probably how you want to play a kensai, anyway. You're too fragile to stick around long enough to full attack anyway -- run up to burst someone down and then retreat.
I think there's also a 3rd-party arcana that lets you use two-handed weapons with spell combat.
The Elven Curve Blade, quixotic king of the finesse-weapon family - it's interested me for quite some time, and I originally wanted to make a Kensei Magus specialized in it, before I found out that Magi don't work well with 2-handed weapons, and there's yet to be an archetype thereof that makes the possibility viable (my other idea for what I wanted to do with a Magus was create a sinister, mail-clad "dark halberdier", so that much sucks), but I digress.
What can people tell me about their experiences/opinions of the Elven Curve Blade, and for what characters/conditions does it really shine? When answering, please keep in mind that I'm looking for something that works in Organized Play. I've been thinking of making a high-Dexterity Elven Barbarian who would wield one, but how well do you think that would actually work?
I played a Half-Elven Inquisitor of Saranrae for quite a long time using the ECB. Loved every minute of it. Our Paladin took some of the teamwork feats (I forget the names but they were: AoO on Crit, add'l damage on flank, etc) all the goodies. And with the massive crit range on the blade (plus keen) it nearly guaranteed a crit per round of combat. We were a holy terror to face in combat. Our GM had to house rule that we were only able to get one full cycle of additional attacks of opportunity, otherwise we would have been murdering everything in the first (or maybe second) round of combat. It is Just. That. Sick.
also, this:
Where in Weapon Finesse does it say that you use dex for damage? It only talks about using dex for attacks not damage.
Where does it say that???
it is inferior to all finesse weapons if you are going weapon finesse because you don't get the +1.5 bonus from 2-handing it like if you were strength.
Taku here is either assuming that you will use agile weapon property, or thinking of a system where weapon finesse changes the damage stat. No, weapon finesse in 3.5/Pathfinder doesn't do that (except mythic).
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Its also great for Half-Orc Skulking Slayers wanting to go for finesse, as its the only 2h weapon that is finessable AFAIK.
I believe the Spiked Chain is 2 handed & Finesseable... And Half-Orcs can gain free proficiency via an alternate racial trait. That said, the spiked chain is typically not as sexy as the 18-20 threat range and d10 damage... But, it could be good for trip/disarm build?
Agile costs 1 damage 1 accuracy even if your group allows Golarion splats, which many seem to be dubious of even when playing in Golarion because the designers have admitted they aren't held to the same balance standard as the setting agnostic hardcovers.
You have a two handed weapon. 1 accuracy is worth 3 damage. That means either your weapon's static bonuses need to be maxed out already or your dex needs to be 8 higher than 1.5x your strength before agile comes out even. Except Agile doesn't help penetrate DR.
14 strength 22 dex you don't want an agile ECB. 14 strength 24 dex Agile might be worth it if you value DR penetration lowly.
I'm not understanding something (or perhaps multiple things) about your statement. How does Agile cost damage and accuracy? Do you mean that it's an opportunity cost to take Agile instead of an extra +1?
I can see the 1:3 notion since that's what Power Attack will give you. But I don't see why Dex has to be 8 higher than Strength before Agile helps. Dex 18 using an Agile weapon will do the same damage as Str 14 with an extra +1 bonus. So Dex 20 with Agile does more damage than the Str 14 with an extra +1 bonus - a six point difference at most.
I don't understand what DR has to with Agile. Higher damage is higher damage, regardless of how it got that high.
14 Str, 22 Dex (+2, +7) I don't see why at that much spread you don't want +8 damage with a +1 Agile weapon over +5 damage with a +2 weapon. I again don't see how having the higher damage bonus of the +1 Agile weapon could be considered to be undervaluing DR penetration - it's going to penetrate DR better than the +2 weapon would.
Someone mentioned it as a dip, but going Titan Mauler Barbarian and doing a twf ECB/Shield build is a nice option.
Alternately, the two level dip into Titan Mauler could be combined with the two-weapon warrior fighter archetype to lessen the penalties for using 2 ECB's. Come on, that's freaking awesome.
at low levels I would say that a high critical multiplier is more useful because you are more likely to one shot kill/seriously harm the opponent.
Yes the 18-20 crit range means a higher DPR however in most situations won't pan out with you only getting a critical every third critical from the curved blade. Which means you could well put the BBG down with a x4 multiplier weapon quicker than the curved blade would and therefore face less enemy action. At higher level the critical feats benefit the higher crit range weapons but at lower levels I'd rather have a 20/x4 multiplier to my damage. As usual the answer is subjective and contextual.
With the x4, sure, you may be more likely to end a foe with a single strike, but since they're so infrequent, you're just as likely to have it happen on a useless mook that you overkill as you are to dramatically bring down a big foe. With the more common lower crits, you're at least a bit more likely to get a good hit on the big guy over several attacks.
But they lack Con, which as you are aware means less hit points. Likewise their dex bonus often means they wear lighter armour in order to benefit from it. Ultimately it means they are more fragile than other fighters and given that their role is to engage in combat that is not a good thing.It's an excellent weapon because it's a d10 18-20 threat.
2d8 Enlarged. 4d8 Vital Strike. ...that's a lot of base damage.
Ideal for elven and tengu melees because they don't have to waste a feat.
I guess that would depend on the kind of melee you're running. I've been using an ECB quite well for my elven rogue(scout). Using the skirmisher ability, occasionally with spring attack, means I rarely get bogged down. Using the ECB, and vital strike when not springing, allows me to make the most of the single attacks I'm making most of the time.
use it as a strength weapon but have it enchanted with Dueling.
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But they lack Con, which as you are aware means less hit points. Likewise their dex bonus often means they wear lighter armour in order to benefit from it. Ultimately it means they are more fragile than other fighters and given that their role is to engage in combat that is not a good thing.It's an excellent weapon because it's a d10 18-20 threat.
2d8 Enlarged. 4d8 Vital Strike. ...that's a lot of base damage.
Ideal for elven and tengu melees because they don't have to waste a feat.
Well, then all the better they kill their opponents fast with an awesome weapon, right?
Or you play a different race which needs a feat.
Welcome to trade-offs.